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Honda Accord VCM

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Comments

  • blufz1blufz1 Member Posts: 2,045
    That's what I been tellin' you guys. It ain't broke so they can't fix it. At least your Honda tech was that smart. It's perception, and most drivers won't notice/care. Were I in your sit. I would go for a free extended warranty for all drivetrain components for as long as you own the car. I would then plan to drive the car "forever" and get a new engine or tranny free under the warranty, should they fail. Hope this helps.
  • jerrywimerjerrywimer Member Posts: 588
    First off, to keep the record straight (and hopefully prevent any argumentative replies that are off-topic), I "don't have a dog in this race". No 08 Honda Accord V6 or Honda Odyssey minivan with VCM.

    But I have owned a GM vehicle with AFM (GM's version of cylinder deactivation technology). It was a 2007 Avalanche (V8). I ordered some GM accessories as part of the purchase of the vehicle, but it came before they did. One of the accessories was a custom exhaust system (mildly loud). Since I got the truck first, I was able to see the difference before and after for the exhaust. One of the unexpected things I noticed was that the V8-V4 changeover was imperceptible to me with the quiet stock exhaust. I was able to tell this because one of the DIC display modes shows the engine mode (V8 or V4). Once the factory exhaust was installed, I was able to tell fairly easily when the engine changed modes, both by sound, and to a much lesser extent, by a very slight change in feel (not a lurching as some have described with their Accords here, though).

    This same issue came up on some of the forums I've visited, by other owners of GM products. Some feel the changeover strongly, while others barely notice it at all. That may mean that, evidently like these Accords, different vehicles actually feel it to a greater or lesser extent, or just that some folks are more sensitive to it than others.

    But as far as the Odyssey vs. the Accord comparison goes, I'd be willing to bet that the greater mass of the vehicle (with the same engine) results in two mitigating factors as far as the VCM 'noticibility' is concerned:

    1. The engine most likely doesn't operate as often or as long in 3/4 cylinder mode (does the Odyssey's version of VCM even do both the other modes?). Much like driving the Accord without the cruise set.
    2. The greater mass of the van means that any lurching the engine does is overcome to a greater extent by the vehicle's inertia, effectively masking the engine's effect more than the lighter car will.

    In any case, nobody seems to have experienced reliability issues with the GM system, and (Honda's engineering being what it usually is) I doubt it will be any different with your cars. It most likely will come down to whether you notice the changeover, and if you do, whether it's too bothersome to live with or not.
  • sunnfunsunnfun Member Posts: 168
    Just got a call back from my Case Mgr (I will say that he is very professional and did call back when he said he would) Basically since the car is within specs, there is nothing they can do or offer to do. So my choices are drive the car or get rid of it. I guess I could escalate this up the Honda Corp ladder and meet with a higher level rep but I don't see anything changing. It's sad they say it's seamless and it's not, as verified by the dealer tech. That seems like fraud to me. I don't know how that would play out in court, nor how long it would take, and in the mean time it does not fix the car. So I guess this weekend I will be test driving new cars again.

    On second thought, there is one last avenue, Senior Mgmt. I wonder if the President etc.. know about this? I'll email them and see what happens. It has worked in the past for other issues.
  • rscharscha Member Posts: 12
    There is no evidence to support that the VCM will ever become a problem or limt the life of your car. I have a neighbor with a VCM equipped Van and after 40K he never realized he has a VCM and never had a problem with the car. This is not new technology and even Mercedes is using it and has for 10 years. The VCM also reduces emmissions making the car greener than other cars packed with some power.

    Every car and driver is different. I drove 4 of the V6 models before buying one and felt nothing that was quirky. The Odessey van had a perfect Consumer Reports record for engine quality and the Hybrids as well that use the same technology. Some of the descriptions state owners feel a surge when the car goes out of ECO mode. This surge and shift as described while going out of ECO mode means you accelerated as the only time the ECO light goes off is when you it the pedal. Any car has a surge of power and down shift when you step on it. Unless the car was not properly tuned by the dealer, there was a tech notice requireing an acceleration adjustment on the earlier production cars. Teh factory now ships them properly tuned.

    I think if your looking for a problem as with anything you will find it either real or imagined. Basically if your as confused as I was after reading this blogg go to the dealer drive one check the professional reviews and consumers reports and make your own judgement. As they say dont believe everything you read, I would not be surprised if some of the posts are from hondas competition.
  • sunnfunsunnfun Member Posts: 168
    there was a tech notice requiring an acceleration adjustment on the earlier production cars Can you provide more info on this? What adjustments, was there a TSB for this? etc....

    Just an FYI - Some of the descriptions state owners feel a surge when the car goes out of ECO mode. This surge and shift as described while going out of ECO mode means you accelerated as the only time the ECO light goes off is when you hit the pedal Not true. That is the whole issue. The car does it while in CC or reg pedal at a constant speed. This has nothing to do with acceleration. I'm glad you don't feel it on yours, but according to my dealer tech, EVERY car does it.
  • jam1000jam1000 Member Posts: 182
    This is more or less where I am in my own thinking -- a court fight, even if successful, would mean putting up with the aggravation and the car for many more months (and even then, if you win they take out some depreciation from your final award, I believe). A lose-lose situation: we're out a few thousand bucks (but learned a valuable lesson about the technology and about American Honda Motor Co.) and Honda loses customer loyalty and referral business, which in the long run is much more than whatever profit they made on the sale of the cars.

    I have thought about the letter up the corporate chain possibility as well, but my assumption is that it will get kicked back down to the same set of Case Managers who told you (and me) that it's normal so live with it or get rid of the car.

    The other possibility regarding the deceptiveness of the "seamless" statement is the Federal Trade Commission and the consumer protection office of the state you live in (usually located within the attorney general's office). They can be very effective if you can get them interested in your plight.
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    I agree with you and think you make a lot of good points.

    I have a 2006 Odyssey with almost 40K miles on it. It has VCM but only the 6 to 3 to 6 cyl version. I can feel the very slight sensation/resonance when the cylinder switches over, but agree with you that the greater mass coupled with all of the other mechanical sounds mostly mitigates the sensation. It's likely more noticeable on the lighter and smaller Accord, as you stated.

    VCM is another technological enhancement that represents cars doing more of the driving for us. In the name of safety or efficiency, features such as VCM, CVT, runflat technology a la Michelin's PAX, intelligent cruise control, lane departure mitigation systems, stability and traction assistance, parking assistance, etc. all combine to chip away at the "purety" of driving all by yourself. When alternatives to gasoline become a broad-based reality, we'll see more of these types of innovations and consumer reactions.

    No question that lives are saved and the earth benefits in incremental ways. But some consumers will complain that the various sensations and big brother interventions are simply unnacceptable to them. It's my opinion that the isolated reactions to VCM (excluding individual mechanical defects) are just another example of that development. Rick Waggoner at GM suggests that thanks to technology, cars will eventually just drive themselves. That's actually a scary proposition.
  • blufz1blufz1 Member Posts: 2,045
    Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. You will lose 1000's if you run and trade it in. Consider whether longevity is comprised by the VCM,it may not be the case. I would re think trading it in. Just my .02 trying to save you some $.
  • rodiron620rodiron620 Member Posts: 53
    Let us know what happens. It would seem to me that they MUST know about all these complaints.
  • rscharscha Member Posts: 12
    Check with your dealer, I investigated the issue and was told that in 07 there was an adjustment that had to be done to the early 08" Accords. I don't remember the details but I was told this is the only TSB on the 08".

    As for acceleration while your CC is on your car accelerates to go up slight inclines and maintain the set speed. This acceleration will turn the ECO light off. In my case it is undetectable. I suspect that some of the cars where the driver feels a vibration may have defective motor mounts.
  • golfrskigolfrski Member Posts: 262
    You were told in 2007 that there was a TSB for 2008 Accords before they even hit the street, and you cant recall? :confuse:
  • jam1000jam1000 Member Posts: 182
    There are no TSBs for the '08 Accord, at least according to the NHTSA database of all TSBs for all manufacturers. The only TSB for any '08 Honda is one for the Civic.
  • rscharscha Member Posts: 12
    Who said anything about before they hit the street these cars were on the road before the first of the year? :confuse: As I said a Honda service manager told me there was only one notice in the system on this car for a minor adjustment that effected acceleration. If you want to know the details call your own dealer.
  • hp6130hp6130 Member Posts: 49
    My wife is having a tough time deciding between an accord ex-l or camry xle. (4 cyl.) So this past sat. she wanted to drive the accord again. We went to the dealer late, at 5:30, they are open till 7. She drove the 4 again, and I asked to take out the 6, (just for the hell of it) , this will be her car, (she will drive it 95% of the time) this was a very short test drive for me (10 - 15 mins.) I just wanted to feel the power and see what the VCM was like. They wanted her to take a car for 2 days, I said no. I felt this was a mistake, so on Mon. I called back and we went over to pick up a 4cyl. at 2 pm. Before we took the car, I said I wanted to take out a 6 again, no problem. This time we went out for 40 mins. When we got back she drove it for 10 to 15 mins. We returned the 4 cyl. at 5 pm yesterday. I asked for a 6 w/vcm for the nite, no problem got the sales mgrs. w/ less than 500 miles on it. We then went for a 2-3 hr. drive (turnpike, highway, country roads, backroads, downtown, uphills, downhills), I had the cruise on and I had it off, I went slow , I went fast. I feel this was a good test of the car and system. Remember this was the third different v-6. My wife would not know a 4 from a 6, or VCM from ABS. We drove the 6 because of homelink and x-tra power seat. I know these are standard on the XLE camry, but you can't get a black interior in an XLE. We are camry buyers, we are on our third camry now, I am not some honda flag waver, but I feel they make a great car, that's why we are considering the accord. My conclusions, the whole time I drove the car the only thing I thought about was VCM and how it shifted, I constantly was watching the eco light and believe me I was looking for issues with the car. It was like I wanted to find something wrong, I was so self-conscious of some of the negative feedback that was in my head. I did not feel anything weird happened, the only time the shifts felt a little more noticeable to me, was when exiting onto an offramp from the highway and a high rate of speed. But again this did not feel abnormal, my wife did not notice anything. This is what I experienced, I AM NOT DISMISSING WHAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE CLAIMING, the cars all felt strong, powerful and smooth. The salesman said he did not hear of anything, but I'd expect him to say that. I try and do my research and at this point I don't feel I would be afraid of buying the V-6. This was just my personal experience and conclusion. Thanks
  • rscharscha Member Posts: 12
    I went through exactly the same process and finally bought the V6 in spite of some of the stories posted here. Again I am sure some people are having problems with individual cars but to say every v6 is a problem would not be at all accurate. Maybe the best advice is to do what you did. Take the car for a very long ride and see for yourself, and test the car that you eventually bring home very carefully.
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    I was watching network TV the other night and saw an Accord commercial that basically is 100% about VCM. The entire commercial is about how great and unique this technology is in terms of fuel efficiency and reducing greenhouse gasses. I am not sure if this is a brand new commercial, but it's the first time I saw it. If Honda acknowledges problems with this technology, I doubt they would be airing a national TV ad that showcases and brings more attention to the system. The ad did not say the system is "seamless" or "unnoticed", but it made it clear that it is transparent to the driver. If there is a problem with VCM, a lawyer or consumer advocate would have a field day with this one TV commercial alone.
  • maltbiemaltbie Member Posts: 31
    This whole VCM issue reminds me of the transmission problem that plagued a small percentage of Accord V6s in the 2000 model year. I had a 2000 EX-V6 that shuddered at about 40 mph when RPMs were below 2,000. I complained about this on Edmunds as did many other upset V6 owners. Many other V6 owners said they had no problem. We complained to our dealers and were told it was normal. Finally, after many months of Honda stonewalling, they acknowledged the problem (lock-up torque converter defect) and replaced the transmissions. They also extended the warranty on all transmissions to 100,000 miles/7 yrs. Hopefully, in a few months, Honda will figure out how to fix the VCM problem, issue a TSB and everyone will be happy.

    Until this problem is resolved, anyone considering a V6 should follow the advice from the posters above by performing an extended test drive to see if they can detect the problem. Perhaps those unfortunate people with the problem can tell us how best to check for the problem during a test drive.
  • jusvisitnjusvisitn Member Posts: 9
    I owned a number of vehicles, mostly American brands, but also, an owner of only one 1985 Accord Hatchback (bought new) which I was very pleased with and kept that car for 10+ years! Very reliable. I had my mind up, to buy a 2008 Accord Sedan V6, but since reading this extremely long thread from start to finish, over a 4 day period, this has really SCREWED-UP my decision making process :(

    I know, that the 'few' complaints about Honda's VCM could be legitimate but I also know that messageboards can give the 'perception' that a problem is blown out of proportion to the total real numbers of people not having any issues. If you do a count, I believe only a few people had the problem in which they believe is directly related to the VCM. This forum here, is the only primary messageboard that I have seen this VCM issue. I Googled like crazy to see where else this VCM engine problem was discussed in depth and nowhere else could I find it. Maybe just minor mention elsewhere that one can somewhat feel the cylinder modes changing.

    I am sure whoever started this topic has a problem with his particular Accord, but I am also guessing that others, known as Trollers possibly enhancing the VCM problem perception here. It does happen, people! That is the nature of the internet because of the anonymity factor.

    This is my suggestion: We have free video hosting sites with YouTube being the largest one. To the original people complaining about Honda's VCM .... show us the problem. This is what some consumers have been doing. I saw this on a ABC show last summer:

    http://abcnews.go.com/icaught/story?id=3546889&page=1

    http://consumerist.com/about

    Take your video cam or borrow one. If you want privacy, cover your license plates and also, you do not have to show yourself. With your video cam, drive your Honda Accord V6 Sedan and demonstrate to us the surging & cylinder mode changing. Narrate/describe to us before the test drive. Upload your videos to YouTube and give it a catchy title to grabs peoples attention.

    In the meantime, I do not know what to do, other than do very extensive test drives of Accord sedans, however if I 'Factory Order' an Accord, I would not be able to test drive that particular one, since I'm commited beforehand to purchase it. Here in California, I am also seeing plenty of Honda advertisements on TV. I wish that I did not ever see this topic at this messageboard! :mad:
  • sunnfunsunnfun Member Posts: 168
    Won't work. The issue is something you feel, not something you see. It would be like trying to video the car changing gears during normal driving.

    As far as doing a google search, you can go back through some of the posts on this VCM board and find the magazine articles describing the issue. Someone put it in one of the posts.
  • jam1000jam1000 Member Posts: 182
    "Won't work. The issue is something you feel, not something you see."

    Ditto.

    PS -- I did what Sunnfun said he was going to do: send a letter to the higher-ups at American Honda. Honda's response was a call from the same case manager I dealt with in the first go-round. He said "normal operation," nothing to be done. Dealing with Honda, no matter how high up or how politely, is not going to get the issue addressed.
  • sunnfunsunnfun Member Posts: 168
    I'm curious how high up you went? I have the email addresses of the CEO in Japan, and the North American Pres's etc...I was going to go directly to them rather than sending a USPS letter. I have been busy at work so I have not finished the letter. Plus I wanted to let some of the anger subside before I wrote it.
  • jusvisitnjusvisitn Member Posts: 9
    "Won't work. The issue is something you feel, not something you see."

    I could not find the magazine article or articles at this forum in reference to VCM issues. It seems to me that some sort of more Pro-Active measure needs to be taken. According to those with the issues, Honda is supposedly Stonewalling it and it is not getting anywhere? Right or wrong? At this forum I did see Sunnfun's review of his Accord.

    And a few more reviews by others which seems to give the perception that someone can HEAR it too. Strong descriptive words being used like: Surging, lurching, hunting, vibration speeds, constant shifting & changing. Then driver's reaction, like maddening, nauseous, very noticeable, very annoying, etc..

    There are also some glowing reviews of the V6 Accord sedan, but very brief. I am not sure if some of the complaints are also including the Grade Logic Control as part of the problem (where it does extreme down-shift automatically?). To me, that seems like a worse feature. Again, hard to get a sense only through the forums what is really going on. It could be people with positive reviews not as bothered, in addition, the Honda dealers saying that is how this engine design normally works and then the customers just accept it because Honda supposedly has the Image of of Infallibility. They can do No Wrong ...... customer's objectivity is maybe affected by the Honda Mystique.

    I can only think that Honda implemented this over-technological method/design , because they already had it, and as a quick fix to meet the demands of the Environmental-Greenists, and Honda can use in advertisement against competitors, e.g., "I am more Greener than You". With their VCM, I think it also meets some kind of PZEV rating (in Calif.), to further jump on Green bandwagon?? So, it seems that VCM engine is not a mechanical problem but a design idiosyncrasy that will not necessarily affect the reliability of the Accord and perhaps that is the position that Corporate Honda is presently taking.

    I still think, anyone with this issue should VIDEO it and post it online. Also, maybe one can go to Honda dealer with their video cam & test drive; telling them you want to show the test drive to your wife or significant other ;). As I said, nothing is happening just posting here, besides just letting off steam (which is understandable). It seems that, Consumerism these days has to be a more visual, interactive and In Your Face strategy.

    Again, I do not see too many complaints elsewhere about the VCM technology, however, this can be a Deal Killer for me, if it is indeed, that annoying, or perhaps can be tolerated, for the 'greater' Greener Cause. I suppose, I won't know until I go test drive them.

    P.S. For whatever it's worth, this search term seems to get a lot of hits entering all the keywords: variable cylinder management +honda +problem
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    I think the folks are saying you can't record something on a video camera that is a matter of feel. I'm not sure what exactly it is that you want them to tape.

    There have been links to articles in this discussion where the reviewers mentioned the issue, as I recall. Sounds like you may have made the search larger than necessary (a max of 200 items is returned). Try using the Search This Discussion box on the gray page bar on this page. Or maybe someone else remembers where they are or something more specific to use as a search term.

    If I may make a suggestion, why don't you do exactly what you suggest in the end of your post - go take some test drives and let us know how they turn out. Take your own video camera and see if there is something you can capture with it. If so, you can post it right here on your own CarSpace page, no need for YouTube, btw.

    That would be very helpful and a bit more helpful than telling the people here what they ought to be doing for your satisfaction. ;)
  • jusvisitnjusvisitn Member Posts: 9
    "That would be very helpful and a bit more helpful than telling the people here what they ought to be doing"

    Hmmm .... that's kind of strong interpretation. That is not my intention, "telling the people here", and I do not believe I was doing that but merely "thinking out loud" to maybe implant ideas or try something else, because right now, it appears to be a stalemate situation with Honda. I really Feel for those making this large dollar investment in their Accords and not getting straight answers or resolution from Honda.

    Yes, you are right. I did conclude to myself, "I suppose, I won't know until I go test drive them" :D . First, I need to do some test videoing in my existing and friend's cars to see if indeed, anything can be detected by recording/documenting such as picking-up or hearing different tones/phases of engine sounds, shift point sounds, jerking motions, etc.. First time here at Edmunds. I did not know, one could post videos here. :shades:
  • oohondaoohonda Member Posts: 4
    I just purchased a v6 honda accord and I could not really notice the shifty feel of the engine as most described. I could however notice that I was looking for the tug or pronouced shift when I saw the ECO light come on. I bet a million dollars (which i dont have) that if that ECO indicator light did not come on and off ...this thread would not exist. Its all in your head people!
    ;)
  • golfrskigolfrski Member Posts: 262
    This is ludicous.... you want people to take a video camera, and tape the feeling they get when the car is surging and vibrating when the VCM is in 3Cyl mode and then upload it to YouTube? LOL

    that will work as well as catching paint drying on film.... cmon already.
  • golfrskigolfrski Member Posts: 262
    I dont even pay attention to my "ECO" light as well as most of the others complaining... there is no doubt it probably has some placebo effect but not in my case...
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    There are 1216 posts here, and if you look back, there are 10 or fewer people complaining about VCM on Edmunds. And several of these people don't even own an Accord. Their complaint is based on test drives.

    But...

    One person claimed that his glasses get literally thrown off his face due to VCM.

    Another person described the sensation as akin to a 16 year old trying to shift gears with the car bucking all over the road.

    Those two scenarios can CERTAINLY be videotaped. Assuming they actually happened in the manner described.

    Honda has conservatively sold 20,000~30,000+ Accords with VCM in the US market alone, since September. If this were a real issue, we would be hearing about it all over the place.

    I'm not suggesting it's not a real issue in singular, isolated situations, but we simply are not hearing about this as a problem from the universe of Accord owners.

    Not yet anyway.

    Just one single video would be helpful and enlightening.
  • rodiron620rodiron620 Member Posts: 53
    As PAT suggested, Tape away... there are a heck of alot more than 10 instances here and all of them are 08 accord owners for the most part only a couple simply test drove the car only, found the issues objectionable and passed on the purchase. The car has real issues.. at least the 1st gen Oct-Dec assembly line accords... I have read many posters that have tested up to 5 diff 08 V6 accords from that lot , from diff dealers etc and ALL found the same surging and vibration issues. In fact i drove another one at lunch today with my buddy and surprise, surprise.. same deal!!!!! We were actually blown away.

    I guess it boils down to the sales pitch that btw has changed radically since Oct.. as some sort of "proof in the pudding" or semi acknowledgment....now when asked about the feeling of vibration and surging the canned responses are "its normal: its a characteristic.. as opposed to prior.... must be a bad set of tires or balance or the car didn't get the NEW CAR calibration.. its all suspect to me.

    AGAIN, if your car doesnt demonstrate these behaviors, good.. move over to the forums that talk about accessories or something, if they do stay here and keep sharing the feedback for those of us in VCM hell to learn more from share etc....
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    There were at least 3 articles/reviews referenced as evidence that VCM was poorly designed. Here are the direct quotes from these articles (about VCM)...

    1. USA Today. "If you step up to the V-6 model, you'll get blazing engine performance but rougher downshifting than in the four-cylinder cars. Also, a sensitive driver can feel the V-6 go through its multicylinder transitions."

    2. Autoweek. "Driving the multi-cylinder-deactivation V6, we did detect a slight hybridlike torque-on/torque-off feel when cruising at 60 or 70 mph under slight throttle (at about 2000 to 2500 rpm). Because the green “ECO” light was illuminated, indicating that the engine was running in fuel-saving economy mode, we were no doubt picking up the engine cycling between four- and three-cylinder modes. The transition from three- or four-cylinder mode to six-cylinder operation was undetectable."

    3. Wall Street Journal. "Accord was fitted with a 268-horsepower, 3.5-liter V6 with what Honda calls Variable Cylinder Management. This technology is designed to boost fuel economy by allowing the six-cylinder engine to run on just three or four cylinders when full power isn't needed. It works almost seamlessly, but in this case, "almost" isn't good enough. During highway driving with the cruise control on I could feel a slight vibration when the engine switched from three- to four- to six-cylinder mode, which it does often, a downright maddening behavior."

    I am sure there are others, but these were referenced right here by Edmunds users regarding VCM. Draw your own conclusions, and your mileage may vary.
  • rodiron620rodiron620 Member Posts: 53
    so you agree? ;)
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    Well, I agree that the Cubs will likely not win the World Series, as Sports Illustrated suggested.... =)

    As for VCM, the jury is still out. I don't feel it's a widespread design problem, but it's a significant enough change that those who are especially sensitive are annoyed by it. I really would like to see examples where people are thrown about as violently as some have suggested. If that's happening, it makes no sense that Honda is saying "this is normal." The truth is somewhere in the middle, and I think it leans toward it NOT being a chronic, widespread problem.

    What we do know is that the 2008 Accord is the most radical change that Honda has ever introduced to its bread and butter product. VCM aside, the car is much larger, is more "Buick-like", offers some unique and innovative characteristics, but is still a Honda. Honda is a unique company that sells far more motorcycles, generators, lawnmowers and other power products than it does automobiles. It even sells airplanes. At its core it's an independent minded, engine-focused company that has always preferred more efficient, economical, high revving 4 cylinder motors to 6 cylinder versions. It fought like heck before it finally offered a V6 in the Accord. More recently, it resisted for years before it agreed to offer a V8 in the Legend/RL. It still can't decide what to put in the next NSX, because it's their philosophy to think smaller (ie: more efficient) displacement rather than bigger. That's their DNA.

    What's this got to do with VCM? I guess the point is, only Honda would have the cojones to offer a technology like this on such a wide scale. It's reputation will live or die based on these daring, innovative moves. I tend to think they know what they're doing.
  • jam1000jam1000 Member Posts: 182
    The letter was addressed to Tetsuo Iwamura, the Chairman CEO of American Honda and a member of the Board of Directors of Honda (Japan), and was sent to the Torrance, CA address of American Honda. Going to the Chairman of Honda (Japan) wasn't going to get any more of a response. Unfortunately, I could not find any more detailed contact information for Mr. Iwamura, either through the Honda websites or through google -- Honda does a masterful job of concealing contact information for its executives, a much better job than it does with its transmission. If anyone has such information, I would be glad to hear it.
  • jam1000jam1000 Member Posts: 182
    "[O]nly Honda would have the cojones to offer a technology like this on such a wide scale. It's reputation will live or die based on these daring, innovative moves."

    Edsel was thought to be innovative or daring in its brief time, too. So was New Coke.

    More seriously, to respond to another one of your posts, the issue I'm more concerned about -- the harsh shifting, especially downshifting -- is unrelated to the (frequent) appearance and disappearance of the ECO light. That's one of the first things I checked for, and I noticed no correlation.
  • sunnfunsunnfun Member Posts: 168
    I'm going to finish the letter this weekend and email it out next week. I'll let you know how it goes and if I get any kind of movement on this.
  • hondamatic1hondamatic1 Member Posts: 26
    Ive posted a few times before since I work at a Honda dealer in Southern California, been a month or so since I last posted and still zero issues here about VCM. Everyone here is happy with the VCM.
  • nkvnkv Member Posts: 24
    well said!! Your points make a lot of sense. I do agree that Honda would not jeopardize its standing in US car industry to introduce a questionable or objectionable technology like VCM just for the fun of it. They definitely have a long term plan to continually refine and improve VCM technology. However, I still feel for those who are having issues with their VCM equipped cars. This can just make one go insane when no easy solution is in the offing.
  • rodiron620rodiron620 Member Posts: 53
    Lets be clear here. Nowhere has any poster ever stated "they are thrown about violently " your attempt to minimize the concerns raised while sarcastic, is weak and more humorous then anything to your position.

    The bottom-line is this, we have spoken with Honda engineers & certified Honda techs in regards to our car. They told us the "ECO" light was a debated decision as they risked the placebo effect (makes sense). Also, they described the VCM Surging as "NOT seamless NOR goes Unnoticed" so did the regional Honda folks. So whether you agree or disagree, there seems to be contradiction within Honda itself on this subject and we saw it first hand.

    At the end of the day I agree with some of the other posters here that the advertising is misleading (in my opinion). While I agree some owners do not notice, others do. You cant dismiss either as more acceptable or objectionable rather a fact. Again, a fact that does not support the claim that the VCM operation is "seamless (Webster's definition: conforming to a type, standard, or regular pattern), and goes Unnoticed" . In addition, many owners I have read (within this approx 1200 posts) have complained about "vibration" some slight , some excessive. What Richter scale they are using is not really that material, only that they are experiencing this outside of what we/they would feel in another vehicle both past Accords and other manufacturers. This is how we/they derive "normal" (Webster's:conforming to a type, standard, or regular pattern)

    Just because Honda decided to invest their future for this particular model on VCM or other products does not in any way validate their decision. There have been other Auto makers that tried this and pulled it. In addition, changed direction on a concept or deign entirely i.e Honda's Hybrid.

    This will continue to be a hot topic and one I will participate in as the issue is "real" and needs to be addressed in the forum of public opinion.

    good times,,,,good times.... ;)
  • rodiron620rodiron620 Member Posts: 53
    I doubt that, sorry, but I do.
  • rodiron620rodiron620 Member Posts: 53
    Would love to get those emails addresses so I can send a letter about my car :-(
  • jusvisitnjusvisitn Member Posts: 9
    Whew .... my brain is almost fried on this! :sick: I only found this topic this past week and took me about 4 days browsing through the posts.

    I GET IT now! It seems that some of the pro- auto reviewers or general auto reviewers giving somewhat positive comments about the 2008 Accord's V6/VCM engine; have not looked deeper, i.e, they do not make a distinction about Accord's 'version' of Cylinder Deactivation compared to other's being used by General Motors & Chrysler. There is a Difference. If I am wrong with this summation, feel free to correct me .......

    The Accord V6/VCM engine:
    It is the ONLY one that has has a deactivation scheme where it involves THREE stages: 6 - 4 - 3 cylinder operation. My understanding is, the glitch with Accords, is when it's going back & forth between 3 & 4 cylinder operation, that is where the sensation or hesitation is felt, but when it goes from 3 or 4 cylinders, to full 6 cylinder operation, it is relatively smooth. I just read that somewhere, but forgot which article it was.

    GM's & Chrysler's engines deactivation is just TWO stages:
    V-8 engines, 8 & 4 cylinder operation
    V-6 engines, 6 & 3 cylinder operation

    From what I scanned/browsed, GM's & Chrysler's cylinder deactivation systems seems to be successful. Back in 1981, GM failed with their Cadillac which used a deactivation scheme that involved THREE stages, 8 - 6 - 4 cylinders. Even though GM really screwed up then, they had the guts to attempt it again. FYI, this might be interesting reading from a past article.....

    OCT '06, Auto Week
    link Smooth Transition: GM seeks mpg without leaving engine in lurch

    I know, I may be preaching to the choir, but above, just kind of a summary for new readers. :shades:
  • parvizparviz Member Posts: 484
    "...I know, I may be preaching to the choir, but above, just kind of a summary for new readers..."

    I know some new readers don't go through all the previous posts. So in the interest of giving equal time to both sides (you know, election time is nearing!) I'll give an update on my experience with my 08 EXL V6 Accord with a built date of 8/2007. I now have over 4000 miles on it and the VCM has been seamless to me and every passenger I've had for the past 4 months.
  • golfrskigolfrski Member Posts: 262
    This is GREAT info....What i have noticed after 11000 miles on my 08 Accord V6 is this:

    When driving at 45 mph (vibration is excessive) (3cyl mode??)
    When driving at 72mph (vibration is excessive) (3 Cycle mode??)
    sometimes in the 60-65mph it is as well. (4-3 mode?)

    when accelerating or driving more agressivley (which i am sure reduces gas mileage) the car runs smooth as silk i.e vibration virtually diminishes (6cly mode??)

    when driving within the city (where most new car testing is done around the dealer) i dont seem to feel the surging as much pronounced. Now, i do feel it, its juts not as often (6/4 mode??)

    In cruise control on long 2+ hour drives at 70mph + and in Cruise Control, i dont feel the surging or lurching AT ALL. turn CC off and manually operate the accelerator and low and behold,, maddening VCM operation as other said hyperactive opeation, constant VCM searching and vinvration which makes for a terrible ride almost makes you sick.

    I test drove 4 other 2008 Honda Accord V6's. I was unable to test drive them for 2+ hours on the highway but did go as long as 40 mins to try and reproduce my cars actions. In all 4 cases all 4 demonstarted the exact same 3cyl nightmare, better in (what I think was 4) and a dream while driving in 6 cly (heavey accelerating etc)
    3 of the cars demonstrated the same vibration tendencies. 1 did as well but it seemed to be less in both the steering wheel and the seat.

    Hope this helps... I am still in hell though. :sick:
  • hondamatic1hondamatic1 Member Posts: 26
    doubt it all you want, its the truth. Zero issues. Zippo. Nada.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    I believe what you are saying is that you are aware of no issues with the VCM at your dealership. That's a little different than saying that they just plain don't exist.
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    I meant no sarcasm. (Okay, I admit the Linda Blair reference may have been slightly over the top.) At no time was I belittling the claims or frustrations.

    Regarding occupants being "thrown about violently", I was referring to those who claimed VCM shook so violently that their glasses got jarred off their heads. Or that VCM was akin to a 16 year trying to shift a manual transmission car for the first time. That it causes the car to surge without driver control. Some posts are accompanied by the "Lemon Car" emoticon, or with demands for a class action lawsuit. A reference to the Japanese always stonewalling in the face of a problem. These are all strong, emotionally-fueled descriptors. You may have made some of them yourself.

    So one person (very reasonably) suggested..."show me a video of this." (Heck, call it "Accords Gone Wild.") The overall response to that is "ridiculous....can't be witnessed in a video since it's just a sensation."

    Well, which is it? Do we really have a problem that remotely approaches the descriptors above?

    I own a VCM-equipped Honda, and never suggested that the system is seamless or unnoticed. It certainly is not that. But in my Honda it's a very subtle resonance only. Nothing close to the stories above. And I am approaching 41,000 miles.

    I also own a PAX runflat-equipped Honda, so I am well aware that Honda can make dopey mistakes (with good intentions). Hondas are not perfect. They have taken responsibility for a variety of design or quality gaffs in past models.

    The jury is still out and deliberating. We aren't seeing a lot of new posters come here and refer to problems with VCM.

    But I'm not saying they aren't out there, either.
  • jusvisitnjusvisitn Member Posts: 9
    Okay, found the articles related to the Accord's glitch with the cylinder deactivation (Re: 3 & 4 cylinder stages) Actually,. it was posted by cstiles earlier in this thread Here are the direct links to them:

    link AutoWeek: '2008 Accord / Honda’s 8th-generation midsizer aims for segment domination'
    "Driving the multi-cylinder-deactivation V6, we did detect a slight hybridlike torque-on/torque-off feel when cruising at 60 or 70 mph under slight throttle (at about 2000 to 2500 rpm). Because the green “ECO” light was illuminated, indicating that the engine was running in fuel-saving economy mode, we were no doubt picking up the engine cycling between four- and three-cylinder modes. The transition from three- or four-cylinder mode to six-cylinder operation was undetectable."

    link WSJ: 'Role Reversal:New Malibu Is Sleek, Accord Is Bloated'
    "Accord was fitted with a 268-horsepower, 3.5-liter V6 with what Honda calls Variable Cylinder Management. This technology is designed to boost fuel economy by allowing the six-cylinder engine to run on just three or four cylinders when full power isn't needed. It works almost seamlessly, but in this case, "almost" isn't good enough. During highway driving with the cruise control on I could feel a slight vibration when the engine switched from three- to four- to six-cylinder mode, which it does often, a downright maddening behavior."

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I am only taking a guess, that the Accord's V6/VCM is very sensitive and so technology dependent, that all the components must work flawlessly, and if not tuned or adjusted precisely, the glitch or idiocyncrasy is evident?? This is the only reason I can account for the "Differences" among the Accords? Also, the possibility that local Honda dealer technicians, do not know how to troubleshoot this issue yet, unless Corporate Honda starts addressing it and get their engineers to seriously work on it? Possibly, not a reliability problem, but very understandable to Accord owners, a valid comfort/ride issue, in which these models are not performing with the expected quality of previous Accords.

    P.S. Also, one cannot compare these Accords V6/VCM with Honda's previous models of Odyssey Minivans with a different VCM engine, cylinder deactivation. Those were TWO STAGE Cylinder Deactivation, 6 & 3 cylinders. The 2008 Accords, it's a THREE STAGE Cylinder Deactivation scheme, 6, 4, & 3 cylinders.

    Just refreshing the facts for new visitors :)
  • rscharscha Member Posts: 12
    I would have your motor mounts checked as complex as they are when one goes bad you will feel it. My 08 is smooth and not a hint of vibration, can't imagine how everyone you drove felt as bad as yours. :lemon: The old Odessey 3 cylinder mode was smooth, wonder why Honda would get it right the first time and mess up on the second try, :confuse: not like them at all. Maybe your dealer will give you a good deal on a trade in for a 4CYL or a left over 07'. :)
  • hp6130hp6130 Member Posts: 49
    We bought the 4cyl. accord ex-l today. I'll post those details elsewhere. But we were sending ourselves crazy in trying to decide between the 4 and 6. Piazza Honda in Reading Pa. were great to deal with, I called this morning and asked to take out another V-6, it was another sales manager's w/ 150 miles on it. If you read any of my earlier posts this was about power seat, homelink and to a lesser extent foglights. Plus the fact that we are talking about 2 grand and less gas mileage. The sale mgr. told me you will probably average 15 and 25 instead of 19 and 29, this was just his opinion. This is my conclusion, (AGAIN, I AM NOT SAYING OTHER PEOPLE ARE NOT HAVING PROBLEMS) We went out for 1 hour, mostly highway, I wanted to test the 60-75 mph. zone, where if i'm reading things right, most people are having the problem. While I'm driving, my wife is adjusting the power seat and trying to decide if she has to have it and the other stuff for the extra 2 grand. She did not even know why I insisted we take another test drive. She said what are you trying to do drive every car on the lot. She knew we were getting the accord but which one. VCM means nothing to her. My wife looked at me like I was nuts when I asked her if she felt it shifting funny, or weird vibrations, as the passenger she felt nothing. And the only feeling I was getting, while the car was shifting, came thru the gas pedal and it felt fine, no shaking whatsoever, we felt isolated from the engine and transmission, the car felt very normal to us. We know what a bad shifting transmission feels like, ask her about her 89 mazda auto. 626 w/ 2 bad valve bodies and 2 transmission replacements, in less than 4 yrs. I drove 4 different cars, and each one felt the same to me, smooth and powerful. I feel honda did a fine job with the V6. I felt nothing out of the ordinary in any of the 4 cars. Take away everything I read about VCM, in these forums and elsewhere, plus the ECO light, and I went out and test drove these cars, I would be clueless they even had VCM. (THAT LAST STATEMENT PERTAINS TO ME AND NO ONE ELSE) This is coming from someone who has been driving 4 cyls. since 1979. If the 2 grand and less gas mileage are of no big deal, and you have to have the other amenities, plus more power, I say go for it. Go test drive the car and see for yourself. If I knew gas would stay under 3 dollars a gallon over the next several years, we would have bought the 6, but the practical side of us won out today. I told her no bitching, if she can't get that manual passenger seat just right and she better not lose the garage remote. TEST DRIVE AND BE YOU OWN JUDGE.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Actually, the thing to do is let "new visitors" ask questions and then we can link them to the right posts if the information has been covered before. There really is no need for the same information to be reposted.

    I thought I posted this here recently, but perhaps I didn't. For everyone, if you want to refer to a previous post, do the following:

    Locate the post.
    Right-click on the post number (which is a link) and choose Copy Shortcut, Copy Link Location, or whatever similar language your browser uses.
    Go to a new post box, type whatever you want and when you are ready to insert the link, right-click and choose Paste (or whatever similar language your browser uses).

    When you post the message, the link you pasted will be accessible to anyone who wants to pursue it.

    Think about it - if everyone keeps reposting the same things over and over we'd have quite a mess!! :-)

    Jusvistn, I think we'd be very interested in your personal experiences over what you gather from previous posts. Have you had a chance to check out any V6 Accords yet?
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