I found this article on the web and it explains in greater detail how the VCM works. the most interesting is the redundant comment of the VCM being "Unnoticeable", clearly NOT TRUE.
Honda released the following regarding the operation of VCM:
How it works
During start-up, acceleration or when climbing hills - any time high power output is required - the engine operates on all six cylinders. During moderate speed cruising and at low engine loads, the system operates just one bank of three cylinders. For moderate acceleration, higher-speed cruising and mild hills, the engine operates on four cylinders.
With three operating modes, the VCM system can finely tailor the working displacement of the engine to match the driving requirements from moment to moment. Since the system automatically closes both the intake and exhaust valves of the cylinders that are not used, pumping losses associated with intake and exhaust are eliminated and fuel economy gets a further boost. The VCM system combines maximum performance and maximum fuel economy - two characteristics that don’t typically coexist in conventional engines.
VCM deactivates specific cylinders by using the VTEC (Variable Valve-Timing and Lift Electronic Control) system to close the intake and exhaust valves while simultaneously the Powertrain Control Module cuts fuel to those cylinders. When operating on three cylinders, the rear cylinder bank is shut down. When running on four cylinders, the left and centre cylinders of the front bank operate, and the right and centre cylinders of the rear bank operate.
The spark plugs continue to fire in inactive cylinders to minimize plug temperature loss and prevent fouling induced from incomplete combustion during cylinder re-activation.
The system is electronically controlled, and uses special integrated spool valves that do double duty as rocker-shaft holders in the cylinder heads. Based on commands from the system’s electronic control unit, the spool valves selectively direct oil pressure to the rocker arms for specific cylinders. This oil pressure in turn drives synchronizing pistons that connect and disconnect the rocker arms.
The VCM system monitors throttle position, vehicle speed, engine speed, automatic-transmission gear selection and other factors to determine the correct cylinder activation scheme for the operating conditions. In addition, the system determines whether engine oil pressure is suitable for VCM switching and whether catalytic-converter temperature will remain in the proper range. To smooth the transition between activating or deactivating cylinders, the system adjusts ignition timing, drive-by-wire throttle position and turns the torque converter lock-up on and off. As a result, the transition between three-, four-, and six-cylinder operation is unnoticeable.
Tell you what - If you don't question that some of us are having this problem/concern, I won't question your 14 MPG on your 05 Hybrid. Because if I was only getting 14 MPG in a hybrid I sure wouldn't be worried about the concerns of others.
If you have something to add which might benefit us in solving the problem WE ARE HAVING then please share, but do not question our situations.
Barring a more satisfactory resolution of the VCM issue,I think you guys should negotiate a lifetime engine warranty for as long as you own the car and then plan to drive it forever. Should the engine break at 100k, or anytime, then Honda provides and installs a new engine or rebuilds your engine at their option.
If you have something to add which might benefit us in solving the problem WE ARE HAVING then please share, but do not question our situations.
I think it works both ways here bud. To some it IS unnoticeable; that's pretty obvious. Yet you say that the article's statement of that fact is "CLEARLY NOT TRUE."
Would Honda do this? I bet its unlikely considering their potential exposure.....
At the end of the day, what is even more clear now as predicted is that as more and more V6's roll off the line , off the truck and onto the road, the more folks are finding issues with the VCM and reaching out to forums like this to crack the code... we'll see more I am sure.. I am encouraged to hear from some of the others that honda states they read these boards.. this will hopefully aid them in a "fix" or alternate solution for this issue. It simply cant be ignored that many people are all experiencing the same issues with the surging/lurching of the VCM and vibration issues with this new design.. Lets all keep prayin that Honda of America does the right thing here sends out a TSB with a fix and all goes on smoothly as Accords are so well respected and known for.....
Would Honda do this? I bet its unlikely considering their potential exposure.....
At the end of the day, what is even more clear now as predicted is that as more and more V6's roll off the line , off the truck and onto the road, the more folks are finding issues with the VCM and reaching out to forums like this to crack the code... we'll see more I am sure.. I am encouraged to hear from some of the others that honda states they read these boards.. this will hopefully aid them in a "fix" or alternate solution for this issue. It simply cant be ignored that many people are all experiencing the same issues with the surging/lurching of the VCM and vibration issues with this new design.. Lets all keep prayin that Honda of America does the right thing here sends out a TSB with a fix and all goes on smoothly as Accords are so well respected and known for.....
From personal experience in an earlier model accord, let me tell you what honda will do. They will act as though YOU are one of the few people with the problem and they are taking care of the problem(s) as they arise. In reality, they will likely do nothing without a classaction lawsuit. Search: honda transmission problems - and you will see they've had transmission problems for many years and haven't fixed the problems. They merely extend the warranty to 100k and if you have a problem they put a rebuilt transmission in for you. (On the day I picked my car up with the rebuilt transmission, it had the same problems as the one they took out - but the dealer couldn't duplicate the problem). If you are waiting for a fix from honda, I am afraid it is going to be a very long painful wait for you.
I agree that Honda might not want to announce that they are doing it as a fix,but they might do it on an individual basis for the really persistent owners. I just wouldn't let any dealer techs put a wrench on my new car for this issue. I think one poster was offered an extended warranty for free by his dealer.
I agree. I think as a forum the important thing for us all is to accept that both groups exist. I just don't want this be presented to the new forum users as a "universal" V6 problem. I don't believe it is. Usually people speak out when there is a problem and if we check the previous posts the number of people with VCM issues are minimal, compare to the ones without. (not scientific, but let me know if you have a better means of getting statistics on this). That is not to undervalue the problem, I think it has to be resolved for the ones who are experiencing it, But let's not inadvertantley diminish my car's value (which is perfectly functioning with VCM) because yours is not working.
I can understand your point. But remember this forum discussion is specifically about the VCM operation and most notably issues and concerns about it. in no way should those people that do not have issues not participate, but those of us (growing numbers) that do, take no gain in hearing about your vehicle that is operating with zero issues. I think we know that there are many owners that have said "no issue here" " I love it" its the best thing since sliced bread" however that is not the root purpose of this thread. The reviews section, or perhaps other threads are maybe more suited for benign experiences with the VCM. This one is really about sharing concerns and experiences that seem to be abnormal or "of concern" related to the VCM and how best to address them as a group.. if yours is operating flawlessly then thats terrific, truly I wish I was in your position. However if those that are having issues dont talk about it constructivly then no resolution can be found. Squeaky wheel gets the....... This has nothing to do with the value of your car. If indeed there is a widespread and growing issue like the WSJ even raised then so be it. The value of "our" cars will be saved if Honda acts.
Just out of curiosity I counted today - on a 12 mile trip out of NYC to New Jersey on Rt. 3 with the cruise set on 60 the ECO light, and the accompanying "surge"or "shift", came on and happened over 30 times - over a span of about 12-15 minutes. And the engineering for this is going to enable this car to also last 180,000 miles like our 1990 Legend just did (and was still going strong)??!! Uh, annoying cannot begin to describe it - every 30 seconds or so??. One of the disadvantages of not buying from the local dealer. I can only imagine the service I am going to get when I go in to complain about this here in NYC.
i was planning on purchasing a 2008 accord exl v6 coupe. after reading this entire thread, i don't think that is a wise move. whoever is the most connected to this issue with honda, what is going to be the resolution? honda needs to addess this asap, as sales are going to be affected. resale value is a real issue, and i can see it now in the kelly blue book, that unless a fix is made, these cars will become dinasours.0
who is the most connected participant on this board and can get everyone conncected to honda north america? i will wait perhaps a month to see if this is being addressed by honda, and after that, i will probably purchase a nissan altima coupe w/v6 but that of course uses premium fuel. nice coupes are hard to find and i thought that the accord was a winner. rr70
I have wondered about that too. I've noticed that ECO light comes on and off "a lot" during the course of my routine daily commute and couldn't help wondering if that wear and tear has a "shelf limit". Now, for those of you having problems with the VCM, I can see how frustrating that could be it happening all the time.
i was planning on purchasing a 2008 accord exl v6 coupe. after reading this entire thread, i don't think that is a wise move. whoever is the most connected to this issue with honda, what is going to be the resolution? honda needs to addess this asap, as sales are going to be affected. resale value is a real issue, and i can see it now in the kelly blue book, that unless a fix is made, these cars will become dinasours.0
Resale could be an issue for VCM owners. Although the dealership could not "duplicate" the clunking in my rebuilt honda transmission, no one else seemed to have a problem identifying it. To trade it in, dealers wanted to reduce the offer on my car by the cost of a new transmission. I tried selling it outright (looks like new) and immediately upon driving my car, two people noticed the transmission clunking and passed. IF the VCM issue is that obvious, this could be a problem in the future.
I am another person who was planning on buying a V6 A/T coupe this year, but this forum is making me reconsider. Based on the problems you guys have having getting a resolution, my fear is that this problem would continue into next year's model too. Have any of you who are experiencing this problem ever test drove the "bigger" 4 cylinder, and if so, knowing what you know now, would you buy that instead?
The VCM is only on the 4DR V6 auto and the 2DR V6 auto. The 2Dr manual does not have the VCM. I need 4Dr's so the coupe was not an option for me. Knowing what I know now, I would have bought a 2007 V6, or the 2008 4I. I am telling anyone who asks me to stay away from the 2008 4Dr V6. At least until this issue is resolved. If you're still undecided, go take a test drive, but be sure to drive highway miles, not just local miles.
what a drag... I am telling you Honda better listen up and do something here... I was away from this board for most of the day today and already see a few new cases of the same issue.... to say i am getting even more worried about my car/situation is an understatement. I was mostly focused on the issue at hand and guess i never really gave resale a thought. OMG. This is not good, not good at all!
The people with the VCM issue have the right to protect their investments, and so do the ones without the VCM issue on their V6. Not every V6 auto has the VCM issue. And so far, the reasonable assumption would be to assume a small fraction is having the problem or it would have made it to the media by now. If you ever considered buying the 08 V6, you owe it to yourself to go take a test drive or two, surface street and highway, cruise control on and off, try it all and see if the one you are testing is okay or not and decide based on that. I don't think that there is a poster who said that the car did okay on the test drive and started acting up after they signed the dotted line.
Phantomv, Your description of the symptoms your car is experiencing is very interesting. The way I read your post, your eco light was on all the time, the cruise control was on and the speedometer was reading 60. Nevertheless, you experienced a "surge" or "shift". Did you notice what the tach was doing during this surgeing ? Was the cruise control doing its job? That is, was the speed constant?
The reason I ask is because my recollection of the road between NYC and New Jersey is that there are some changes in grade. On my V-6, when I'm on cruise and the eco light is on, the system works as expected when I reach a hill. The eco light sometimes goes off until the top of the hill is reached whereupon the eco light comes on again.Obviously, it switches to the 6 cylinder mode to climb the hill. In this case there is no noticeable change on the tach, and is not detectable except for the eco light.
Sometimes, if the car has enough momentum, it just slightly increases engine speed and leaves the eco light on. In this second case, the engine speed increase is small but noticeable on the tach. This second method of hill climbing under cruise control.is common to any auto I've ever owned. It doesn't involve cylinder switching and has always been noticeable on any car.
However, your driving experience was at 60 mph. I'd think you'd have plenty of momentum to overcome most small hills without switching to 6 cylinder mode but by just slightly increasing engine speed.
If you're getting a large increase on your tach during these surges at 60 mph without any large changes in grade then that does not seem normal. Perhaps it may have to do with your torque converter lock-up. At 60mph it doesn't seem likely you'd be downshifting except on a very steep hill but this too is possible. I currently live in Florida and my experience with this car on steep hills is nil
I'd suggest you pay close attention to what your tachometer is doing at the time you experience these surges. Your VCM problem could be something else.
I wont speak for Phantom Hank, but I will chime in and tell you on my car when the surging and vibration occurs both in cruise control and out, i see no change in the tach at all. lots of hyperactive surging but zero tach change....
Rodiron Vibration sounds to me like it could be a VCM problem inasmuch as Honda has provided special engine mounts to absorb vibration and special acoustics to eliminate any unwanted effects of engine imbalance during 3 or 4 cylinder operation.
Surging, however could result from many causes. My understanding of the sensation you get from surgeing would be that your body is moved backward (or forward) with respect to the vehicle. Is that right ?
If you read carefully your own post from another web-site about the working of the VCM system, you'll see that several control systems are involved. These control systems handle functions which are independent of the VCM system as well. For example VCM uses the drive-by-wire system to set throttle positions for its own purposes. The operator uses the system for the normal accelerator function. If something malfunctions in the drive-by-wire system is it an accelerator problem or VCM problem ?
My point was that your collective problems can be the result of any number of different component malfunctions
My past experiences with the mechanics at the auto dealerships is that on new systems they have a learning curve that is very steep. I hope they can solve your problems soon. Especially since at some future time it could be my problem.
I too suffer the same problem as phantom. Cruise on or off (pick your speed 50, 60, 70) flat road. They key here is flat road. No change in tach readings. It is almost as if you have a bad lot of fuel and the car stutters or bogs momentarily. I am working with my dealership, they consider this a VCM problem which to date they have mentioned they currently do not have a fix for. However, and this is important, they also mentioned that they (honda) will have to come up with something to correct this.
Having owned several accord V6 recently I did not take an extended test drive. Round the block a couple of times to check things like visibility, modest accelerations. More often than not new cars I have tested had not had their PDI done, so it's not always a fair test of their worthiness. That said, day after I picked car up went for two hour highway cruise and problem was instantly noticeable compared to my three year old accord V6.
Parviz - well, it did make the media - the WSJ article was critical of its having been noticeable and annoying. Problem is - most car mags are going to test the coupe 6 speed WITHOUT VCM. Perhaps there will be a comparison test of the v-6 sedan with others - "family cars". I completely trusted Honda based on 26 years of ownership and 14 Acura/Honda cars. I cannot believe they actually put this car on the street. Something GM would do years ago - the VEGA? The Cadillac V-8-6-4? Honda - you may have lost me forever as a fan and loyal customer. I feel I got screwed for that loyalty - I should have driven the 4 - but liked the V-6 foglights,etc. and of course always the power and quiet.
Perhaps I did ntot explain myself well - the ECO light came on and off corresponding with the "surge" or "shift". Of course those are mere descriptive terms - there is no shift - except from 6 to 4 to 3 operation, and then 3-6 again. What is infuriating is I think all this, coupled with the "grade logic" transmission casuses the car's drivetrain to be constanly doing "something" - into or out of ECO and shifting because of inclines or declines. Will drive you crazy and I dbout its longevity.
Thanks Hank I agree.. i have told Honda I will be patient if they take the approach that they will do whatever it takes to get it right... its difficult to no lose patience as the miles are raking up, the car is uncomfortable to drive and they are not stepping up to doing anything.. at least so far.... but again they may be trying behind the scenes and I just dont know it.
My EXACT experience as well... 5 Accords previous, short test drive mostly in city and noticed it immediately after purchase driving it home on the highway... I too have been told by the dealership and HONDA of America that this issue "has to do with the VCM".. so they know all about it everyone.
While mine is a 190 HP I4 2008 Accord EX-L, I've read with great interest, the (497 as of this Sunday morning) posts in this 2008 Honda Accord VCM forum. Of course my 2004 V6 Accord does not have the new VCM feature so I cannot comment on the issues from a firsthand perspective.
I am completely sympathetic with, and support, anyone having issues that they consider to be a design deficiency with their VCM-equipped 2008 V6 Accords. However, I thought it time for a reality check on exactly how widespread this concern may be in the Edmunds CarSpace community. To that end, I spent several hours combing the three CarSpace forums that seemed most likely to have posts from the owners involved. Based upon the comments by several members about "MANY, MANY" owners reporting problems, the following is what I found. Realize that my findings are only reflective of member posts that found something objectionable or worse, not those who mentioned only that they were able to notice or sense that the system was properly functioning.
2008 Honda Accord VCM forum
497 total posts to date
Initial post # 1 golfrski 145 rodiron620 263 tc99m (only one of his two 2008's) 297 phantomv 317 sunnfun 354 buttdonkey 398 donegal 421 cody3764 429 misocar 433 dpsports
That is exactly ten (10) owner/members with some degree of concern.
Honda Accord 2008 Maintenance and Repair forum:
181 (one hundred eighty one) total posts to date with NONE other than donegal's post #121 (see his or her post #398 above) discussing similar concerns.
2008 Honda Accord Coupe and Sedan forum
4,634 (four thousand six hundred thirty four) total posts to date with NONE, other than a couple of the ten above posters, discussing similar concerns and dpmeersman's post #3,247 (where he or she wrote "It's not unlike the sensation you get when the auto transmission is shifting but far less noticeable and indeed at times it's not noticeable at all.")
Now for the REALITY CHECK. Ten (10) owners out of how many posters in over 5,300 posts? Is this indicative of an endemic engine design problem? Are these ten vehicles experiencing the exact same issues? Is this a Honda conspiracy? Is this a hazardous condition requiring an immediate recall of many thousands of vehicles?
Since we all have different personal perceptions of how a vehicle should feel when driven (seats too hard or soft, too many or too few buttons on the console, too weak or just fine a sound system, too much or just enough road noise, too noisy or just the right exhaust note, too firm or too soft a suspension, acceleration too weak or just right, etc.) Could this perhaps be a question of the "princess and the pea"? http://tinyurl.com/3brzw
I wish the ten folks who have expressed their concerns, some significantly more than others, well in their efforts to resolve those concerns with their dealerships' service departments and with American Honda Motor Company. However, until there is concrete evidence to the contrary, I for one will not condemn the VCM design.
The low stats are good in one respect. It makes it cheaper for Honda to take care of them. I would think that a free lifetime warranty of the drivetrain for as long as they own the car would be relatively easy for Honda to do. Then the guys just drive them till they drop and get new drivetrain items replaced at no charge. Sometimes you gotta make lemonade if you can't return the car.
Below is my DMV's registration for my '08 Accord V6 EX-L with NO VCM PROBLEM. Please post yours before we discuss VCM issue. I am trying to repost mine correctly.Thanks.
REGISTRATION VALID FROM TYPE LICENSE NUMBER AUTO 12/08/2007 TO 12/08/2008 11 XXXXXX VEHICLE IDENTIFICATION NUMBFR BODY TYPE MODEL 4D DATE ISSUED 01/08/2008 -. DATE FIRST SOLD CLASS 00 00/00/2007HQ TYPE VEH. MP AX WC UNLADENIGICGW 110 G 0 00000 MAIb HOND YR Yr. Model 0000 2008 TOTAL FEES PAID $252 0100 5 R E G0 Iw E D Ii. E N H 0 L D E R i: i / STATE OF CALIFORNIA DEPARTMENT OF MOTOR VEHICLES VALIDATED REGISTRATION CARD READ REVERSE SIDE-IMPORTANT INSTRUCTIONS 67120080 103A90 198C 06944929
Viet, What what does DMV reg have to do with anything? We started this exercise a while back. Please look at the earlier posts and post that information.
Although I don't think that posting your personal information is a great idea from a security standpoint, if you feel you have to, you might want to edit your message and just post the VIN and date registered.
I have a 2008 EX-L V6 automatic. I am not experiencing the surging or vibration others have experienced. I do notice, however, that the downshifting, particularly in the low 20 mph range (so I'm guessing 3rd to 2nd?), is frequently quite exaggerated or noticeable -- I feel a real dragging feel, almost as if the car is braking by itself. I don't think it's a VCM problem, as it happens when the car is already in "ECO" mode and also when it is not. Could this be the "grade logic" system (although I feel the dragging feel on flat roads as well as on ascents and descents)? Or is there a potential transmission issue? Or is this a feel common among Hondas (if so, it would be totally different from any other car I've had, including an Accord many years ago)?
As to VCM itself, I can sometimes notice when it kicks in -- a slight sensation of some sort just before the ECO light comes on -- but more often it is not noticeable. If I didn't have the downshifting issue mentioned above, I probably wouldn't pay much attention to it. I do notice that the ECO light goes on and off quite frequently. I would like it if Honda offered some system for disabling the light, since it is somewhat annoying going on and off as it does; and it's not as if there's anything I can do about it when it comes on or goes off.
Great job Blane,,, so let me ask you,,, how long have you worked for Honda?
Gimme a break. issue is real, issue is bad, issue is getting worse in growing numbers all over the net including now issues written in the Wall Street Journal. nice try, no cigar. If you dont have any issue move over to another forum that talks about another issue .. its simple. Why you are here discounting those that have concerns and trying to diminish their cries for help is beyond me...
if you are NOT experiencing an issue with your V6 that is related to the VCM operation, great.. leave it at that please for the rest of us to discuss.
Several of these postings refer to noticing the surging when the ECO light kicks on, and others have cautioned that potential buyers need to make sure they get good highway test time.
While I have experienced some pulsing / surging at highway speeds, my biggest issue has been on smaller roads at around 50 mph, which I'm guessing is switching between 3/4 cyclinder mode. Since each of these modes is an ECO mode, this surge happens without an on/off of the ECO light. It makes sense to me that the 4 to 3 switch would be the most "disruptive", since a whole side of the V6 is deactivated, while the 6 to 4 just deactivates one cylinder on each side. Have others noticed their issues more at highway speeds (65-75) or at side road speeds (45 - 55)?
Reading through this whole forum, the big question I have is : Do these V6 cars really vary alot, or is the variation more due to the sensitivity of the driver? I can imagine that some drivers would drive the same car and one would be really bothered and one not so much.
As I mentioned before, my concern that my "noticeability" seems to be getting worse over time. I asked this before - have others observed increased noticeability over time? I've now had the car for 3.5 months and have about 6500 miles.
Does anyone know if there is an engineering reason that would prevent Honda from just turning this off - aside from the lost of ~ 2 mpg? And of course, the loss to their technology image!
As a Honda owner for 27 years since 1981 - Accord 5 Speed 4 dr sedan, Tan, Tan interior - cost $8500 - owning 14 Acura/Honda cars since, I am outraged that I would be challenged on my ownership, and for someone to take us to task for our problems - NOT IMAGINED. Am I suggesting that all VCM equipped cars have this problem? I really don't know - I have driven only mine - but the WSJ tester noticed it in his car. Don't you think Honda would have ensured he get a car whose 6-4-3 operation was "seamless"? Who the hell is anyone here to accuse anyone else of not owning the car being complained about? I do not have to post my registration here to prove my ownership to any of you jerks. Pompous asses. I dare say I have more driving experiences and track lessons, and am more sensitve to fine driving than those who make these accusations/suggestions, on the track and off - Corvair Corsa with Koni shocks and Ieco exhaust, Camaro 396 SS/RS, Jaguar XKE, Pontiac Trans Am, 94 Legend Coupe 6 Speed, 2004 S 2000, Corvette LT1, Lamborghini Countach, Ferrari 430. Would any of you even know how to drive a 6 speed? I doubt it. These problems are real - if you are not experiencing them or it doesn't bother you - good for you. But don't you dare minimize the problems the rest of us are having.
Hank - in 1983 we test drove several Accord Automatics with lock up OD and loved them. Bought one we had NOT driven - drove it out the door and it started "hunting" when on the highway" - in and out of OD - and yes, of course the engine RPMs would go up and down. Your memory of the road about which I was talking in NJ is correct - it does have some changes of elevation - but not enough that I should have been experiencing what I was - our 1990 Legend V-6 (we had bought it for our son while in college) would never shift gears on cruise conrtol over the same stretch of road - you could simply feel or hear the engine adjust to compensate for the inclines. And that was 161 HP vs. 268hp??
This will be my last post unless someone provokes me again. Princess and the pea? Moron. :mad: :mad: :mad:
My car has been doing it on the highway. I can see the ECO light go on and off in town, but the highway is really where I feel it. Between 70 and 72 is the worst. The car can't figure out what mode to be in. For me, on the highway, when the ECO light comes on, it feels like the car has applied the brakes. If the road is flat, normally there is no change after the light has come on (as long as I'm not going 70-72). As soon as I go on an incline, the light goes off and it lurches forward when all the cylinders turn on. Since there are not many flat highway roads in the DC area, it is constantly doing it. I have not payed attention the the tach but I will do that next time out. I think it is pointless to let the dealer see it because they can't fix it. I believe it is a design flaw.
Like you, as mentioned earlier - this is not a simple case of the VCM activating because the ECO light which indicates VCM operation does not go out. As you mentioned it is likely cycling through 3/4 cylinder use for some reason.
Although the ability to turn it off might exist, unfortunately that doesn't fix the problem. We have all paid for the newest technology, and for it's minimal but potential fuel savings. I am not willing to give that up for an extended warranty. What if the ABS would suddenly suffer a problem - would it be acceptable to disable that feature - absolutely not. My vehicle is leased - and I do not enjoy the highway experience. Fix or take back - only two options.
I do not have to own a 2008 Accord V6 to be able to read. The results of that detailed reading of thousands of Carspace posts are summarized above.
Since you guys feel there is a much more widespread problem than with the ten posters here in CarSpace, I just did a search of TOV postings over past few months. The following are the only four forums with any mention of the subject by unhappy drivers:
http://tinyurl.com/2bkpop Only one poster with a problem. At the end two pages of back and forth posts he wrote: "Honda has just stepped up to the plate and is installing a new engine. The existing engine will be returned to engineering for further testing. The new engine will arrive tomorrow (Thursday), and we are hopeful at having the car back on Monday."
A second poster, who thought he had the same problem, was using 92 octane fuel. When he switched to the correct 87 octane the problem disappeared.
http://tinyurl.com/2hncz3 Only one poster with a problem. At the end two pages of back and forth posts he wrote "I want to be clear here that this is very minor, ever so slight but you can feel it . The dealer replaced my 08 with another new 08 Accord. I do not have the vibration problem in this car and I am a happy customer.
A big thank you to Honda for stepping up to plate and making things right."
Of course there were probably a thousand recent posts in other TOV forums. But none were related to VCM.
You wrote "Great job Blane,,, so let me ask you,,, how long have you worked for Honda?
Gimme a break. issue is real, issue is bad, issue is getting worse in growing numbers all over the net including now issues written in the Wall Street Journal. nice try, no cigar."
Sorry, I have never worked for Honda or any other auto manufacturer. (I tried to sell Fords for about a month when I was between jobs about twelve years ago. What a lousy way to make a living.)
You wrote about "growing numbers" Please provide valid links where we can all see those numbers and be educated.
As CarsSpace members we each have an equal right to discuss the subject . Please keep it factual and perhaps you folks will be able to resolve what appear to be problems isolated to ten vehicles. See the links in post #509 where two owners did exactly that.
I haven't questioned your "ownership", just the unfounded statements made by a few posters about the extent of the problem. Please just read the numbers and if you don't believe them, do your own research. You will come to the same conclusion. So far there are only ten vehicles that have had reported problems in these forums. There are lots of other 2008 Accord V6 owners who have reported absolutely none.
The Accord is Honda's bread and butter — some 369,293 examples were sold in the U.S. alone during 2006, so there's a lot riding on its success. Out of these 369,293 units, about 20 to 30% were V6.
The '08 V6 EX-L is a very fine sport sedan with strong muscles. Jedelicka, auto crititic at MSN test drove it and he loved it. He said its engine is one of the best engine on earth. ECO light on and off frequently is OK with me. If Phantomy, Donnegal, Sunnfun & Golf do not like that ECO light please use a small piece of duck tape to cover it.
Frankly I never bought the V6 sedan for fuel economy... I bought it because I wanted a 4 door V6 sedan like my 2003.. expecting the same quality and drive and low and behold I end up with a jerky, surgy, lurchy nightmare that vibrates the glasses off my head..
Comments
Honda released the following regarding the operation of VCM:
How it works
During start-up, acceleration or when climbing hills - any time high power output is required - the engine operates on all six cylinders. During moderate speed cruising and at low engine loads, the system operates just one bank of three cylinders. For moderate acceleration, higher-speed cruising and mild hills, the engine operates on four cylinders.
With three operating modes, the VCM system can finely tailor the working displacement of the engine to match the driving requirements from moment to moment. Since the system automatically closes both the intake and exhaust valves of the cylinders that are not used, pumping losses associated with intake and exhaust are eliminated and fuel economy gets a further boost. The VCM system combines maximum performance and maximum fuel economy - two characteristics that don’t typically coexist in conventional engines.
VCM deactivates specific cylinders by using the VTEC (Variable Valve-Timing and Lift Electronic Control) system to close the intake and exhaust valves while simultaneously the Powertrain Control Module cuts fuel to those cylinders. When operating on three cylinders, the rear cylinder bank is shut down. When running on four cylinders, the left and centre cylinders of the front bank operate, and the right and centre cylinders of the rear bank operate.
The spark plugs continue to fire in inactive cylinders to minimize plug temperature loss and prevent fouling induced from incomplete combustion during cylinder re-activation.
The system is electronically controlled, and uses special integrated spool valves that do double duty as rocker-shaft holders in the cylinder heads. Based on commands from the system’s electronic control unit, the spool valves selectively direct oil pressure to the rocker arms for specific cylinders. This oil pressure in turn drives synchronizing pistons that connect and disconnect the rocker arms.
The VCM system monitors throttle position, vehicle speed, engine speed, automatic-transmission gear selection and other factors to determine the correct cylinder activation scheme for the operating conditions. In addition, the system determines whether engine oil pressure is suitable for VCM switching and whether catalytic-converter temperature will remain in the proper range. To smooth the transition between activating or deactivating cylinders, the system adjusts ignition timing, drive-by-wire throttle position and turns the torque converter lock-up on and off. As a result, the transition between three-, four-, and six-cylinder operation is unnoticeable.
It's surely unnoticeable. How have you experienced with your own car, '08 EL-X V6, Parviz, Mcpdjohn & Hank119?
If you have something to add which might benefit us in solving the problem WE ARE HAVING then please share, but do not question our situations.
I think it works both ways here bud. To some it IS unnoticeable; that's pretty obvious. Yet you say that the article's statement of that fact is "CLEARLY NOT TRUE."
Everyone needs to cut each other a little slack.
At the end of the day, what is even more clear now as predicted is that as more and more V6's roll off the line , off the truck and onto the road, the more folks are finding issues with the VCM and reaching out to forums like this to crack the code... we'll see more I am sure.. I am encouraged to hear from some of the others that honda states they read these boards.. this will hopefully aid them in a "fix" or alternate solution for this issue. It simply cant be ignored that many people are all experiencing the same issues with the surging/lurching of the VCM and vibration issues with this new design.. Lets all keep prayin that Honda of America does the right thing here sends out a TSB with a fix and all goes on smoothly as Accords are so well respected and known for.....
At the end of the day, what is even more clear now as predicted is that as more and more V6's roll off the line , off the truck and onto the road, the more folks are finding issues with the VCM and reaching out to forums like this to crack the code... we'll see more I am sure.. I am encouraged to hear from some of the others that honda states they read these boards.. this will hopefully aid them in a "fix" or alternate solution for this issue. It simply cant be ignored that many people are all experiencing the same issues with the surging/lurching of the VCM and vibration issues with this new design.. Lets all keep prayin that Honda of America does the right thing here sends out a TSB with a fix and all goes on smoothly as Accords are so well respected and known for.....
From personal experience in an earlier model accord, let me tell you what honda will do. They will act as though YOU are one of the few people with the problem and they are taking care of the problem(s) as they arise. In reality, they will likely do nothing without a classaction lawsuit. Search: honda transmission problems - and you will see they've had transmission problems for many years and haven't fixed the problems. They merely extend the warranty to 100k and if you have a problem they put a rebuilt transmission in for you. (On the day I picked my car up with the rebuilt transmission, it had the same problems as the one they took out - but the dealer couldn't duplicate the problem). If you are waiting for a fix from honda, I am afraid it is going to be a very long painful wait for you.
BTW how do you think recalls start 9/10 times?
i was planning on purchasing a 2008 accord exl v6 coupe. after reading this entire thread, i don't think that is a wise move. whoever is the most connected to this issue with honda, what is going to be the resolution? honda needs to addess this asap, as sales are going to be affected. resale value is a real issue, and i can see it now in the kelly blue book, that unless a fix is made, these cars will become dinasours.0
who is the most connected participant on this board and can get everyone conncected to honda north america? i will wait perhaps a month to see if this is being addressed by honda, and after that, i will probably purchase a nissan altima coupe w/v6 but that of course uses premium fuel.
nice coupes are hard to find and i thought that the accord was a winner.
rr70
Resale could be an issue for VCM owners. Although the dealership could not "duplicate" the clunking in my rebuilt honda transmission, no one else seemed to have a problem identifying it. To trade it in, dealers wanted to reduce the offer on my car by the cost of a new transmission. I tried selling it outright (looks like new) and immediately upon driving my car, two people noticed the transmission clunking and passed. IF the VCM issue is that obvious, this could be a problem in the future.
Thanks,
Duke
Your description of the symptoms your car is experiencing is very interesting. The way I read your post, your eco light was on all the time, the cruise control was on and the speedometer was reading 60. Nevertheless, you experienced a "surge" or "shift". Did you notice what the tach was doing during this surgeing ? Was the cruise control doing its job? That is, was the speed constant?
The reason I ask is because my recollection of the road between NYC and New Jersey is that there are some changes in grade. On my V-6, when I'm on cruise and the eco light is on, the system works as expected when I reach a hill. The eco light sometimes goes off until the top of the hill is reached whereupon the eco light comes on again.Obviously, it switches to the 6 cylinder mode to climb the hill. In this case there is no noticeable change on the tach, and is not detectable except for the eco light.
Sometimes, if the car has enough momentum, it just slightly increases engine speed and leaves the eco light on. In this second case, the engine speed increase is small but noticeable on the tach. This second method of hill climbing under cruise control.is common to any auto I've ever owned.
It doesn't involve cylinder switching and has always been noticeable on any car.
However, your driving experience was at 60 mph. I'd think you'd have plenty of momentum to overcome most small hills without switching to 6 cylinder mode but by just slightly increasing engine speed.
If you're getting a large increase on your tach during these surges at 60 mph without any large changes in grade then that does not seem normal. Perhaps it may have to do with your torque converter lock-up. At 60mph it doesn't seem likely you'd be downshifting except on a very steep hill but this too is possible. I currently live in Florida and my experience with this car on steep hills is nil
I'd suggest you pay close attention to what your tachometer is doing at the time you experience these surges. Your VCM problem could be something else.
test drive all day long,, go on a 30-50 min highway only drive test at all speeds..
Vibration sounds to me like it could be a VCM problem inasmuch as Honda has provided special engine mounts to absorb vibration and special acoustics to eliminate any unwanted effects of engine imbalance during 3 or 4 cylinder operation.
Surging, however could result from many causes. My understanding of the sensation you get from surgeing would be that your body is moved backward (or forward) with respect to the vehicle. Is that right ?
If you read carefully your own post from another web-site about the working of the VCM system, you'll see that several control systems are involved. These control systems handle functions which are independent of the VCM system as well. For example VCM uses the drive-by-wire system to set throttle positions for its own purposes. The operator uses the system for the normal accelerator function. If something malfunctions in the drive-by-wire system is it an accelerator problem or VCM problem ?
My point was that your collective problems can be the result of any number of different component malfunctions
My past experiences with the mechanics at the auto dealerships is that on new systems they have a learning curve that is very steep. I hope they can solve your problems soon. Especially since at some future time it could be my problem.
I too suffer the same problem as phantom. Cruise on or off (pick your speed 50, 60, 70) flat road. They key here is flat road. No change in tach readings. It is almost as if you have a bad lot of fuel and the car stutters or bogs momentarily. I am working with my dealership, they consider this a VCM problem which to date they have mentioned they currently do not have a fix for. However, and this is important, they also mentioned that they (honda) will have to come up with something to correct this.
Having owned several accord V6 recently I did not take an extended test drive. Round the block a couple of times to check things like visibility, modest accelerations. More often than not new cars I have tested had not had their PDI done, so it's not always a fair test of their worthiness. That said, day after I picked car up went for two hour highway cruise and problem was instantly noticeable compared to my three year old accord V6.
I am completely sympathetic with, and support, anyone having issues that they consider to be a design deficiency with their VCM-equipped 2008 V6 Accords. However, I thought it time for a reality check on exactly how widespread this concern may be in the Edmunds CarSpace community. To that end, I spent several hours combing the three CarSpace forums that seemed most likely to have posts from the owners involved. Based upon the comments by several members about "MANY, MANY" owners reporting problems, the following is what I found. Realize that my findings are only reflective of member posts that found something objectionable or worse, not those who mentioned only that they were able to notice or sense that the system was properly functioning.
2008 Honda Accord VCM forum
497 total posts to date
Initial post #
1 golfrski
145 rodiron620
263 tc99m (only one of his two 2008's)
297 phantomv
317 sunnfun
354 buttdonkey
398 donegal
421 cody3764
429 misocar
433 dpsports
That is exactly ten (10) owner/members with some degree of concern.
Honda Accord 2008 Maintenance and Repair forum:
181 (one hundred eighty one) total posts to date with NONE other than donegal's post #121 (see his or her post #398 above) discussing similar concerns.
2008 Honda Accord Coupe and Sedan forum
4,634 (four thousand six hundred thirty four) total posts to date with NONE, other than a couple of the ten above posters, discussing similar concerns and dpmeersman's post #3,247 (where he or she wrote "It's not unlike the sensation you get when the auto transmission is shifting but far less noticeable and indeed at times it's not noticeable at all.")
Now for the REALITY CHECK. Ten (10) owners out of how many posters in over 5,300 posts? Is this indicative of an endemic engine design problem? Are these ten vehicles experiencing the exact same issues? Is this a Honda conspiracy? Is this a hazardous condition requiring an immediate recall of many thousands of vehicles?
Since we all have different personal perceptions of how a vehicle should feel when driven (seats too hard or soft, too many or too few buttons on the console, too weak or just fine a sound system, too much or just enough road noise, too noisy or just the right exhaust note, too firm or too soft a suspension, acceleration too weak or just right, etc.) Could this perhaps be a question of the "princess and the pea"? http://tinyurl.com/3brzw
I wish the ten folks who have expressed their concerns, some significantly more than others, well in their efforts to resolve those concerns with their dealerships' service departments and with American Honda Motor Company. However, until there is concrete evidence to the contrary, I for one will not condemn the VCM design.
REGISTRATION VALID FROM TYPE LICENSE NUMBER
AUTO 12/08/2007 TO 12/08/2008 11 XXXXXX
VEHICLE IDENTIFICATION NUMBFR
BODY TYPE MODEL
4D
DATE ISSUED
01/08/2008
-. DATE FIRST SOLD CLASS
00 00/00/2007HQ
TYPE VEH. MP AX WC UNLADENIGICGW
110 G 0 00000
MAIb
HOND
YR Yr. Model
0000 2008
TOTAL FEES PAID
$252
0100 5
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G0
Iw
E
D
Ii.
E
N
H
0
L
D
E
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i: i
/
STATE OF CALIFORNIA
DEPARTMENT OF MOTOR VEHICLES
VALIDATED REGISTRATION CARD
READ REVERSE SIDE-IMPORTANT INSTRUCTIONS
67120080 103A90 198C
06944929
What what does DMV reg have to do with anything? We started this exercise a while back. Please look at the earlier posts and post that information.
Although I don't think that posting your personal information is a great idea from a security standpoint, if you feel you have to, you might want to edit your message and just post the VIN and date registered.
As to VCM itself, I can sometimes notice when it kicks in -- a slight sensation of some sort just before the ECO light comes on -- but more often it is not noticeable. If I didn't have the downshifting issue mentioned above, I probably wouldn't pay much attention to it. I do notice that the ECO light goes on and off quite frequently. I would like it if Honda offered some system for disabling the light, since it is somewhat annoying going on and off as it does; and it's not as if there's anything I can do about it when it comes on or goes off.
Gimme a break. issue is real, issue is bad, issue is getting worse in growing numbers all over the net including now issues written in the Wall Street Journal. nice try, no cigar. If you dont have any issue move over to another forum that talks about another issue .. its simple. Why you are here discounting those that have concerns and trying to diminish their cries for help is beyond me...
if you are NOT experiencing an issue with your V6 that is related to the VCM operation, great.. leave it at that please for the rest of us to discuss.
thanks.
While I have experienced some pulsing / surging at highway speeds, my biggest issue has been on smaller roads at around 50 mph, which I'm guessing is switching between 3/4 cyclinder mode. Since each of these modes is an ECO mode, this surge happens without an on/off of the ECO light. It makes sense to me that the 4 to 3 switch would be the most "disruptive", since a whole side of the V6 is deactivated, while the 6 to 4 just deactivates one cylinder on each side. Have others noticed their issues more at highway speeds (65-75) or at side road speeds (45 - 55)?
Reading through this whole forum, the big question I have is : Do these V6 cars really vary alot, or is the variation more due to the sensitivity of the driver? I can imagine that some drivers would drive the same car and one would be really bothered and one not so much.
As I mentioned before, my concern that my "noticeability" seems to be getting worse over time. I asked this before - have others observed increased noticeability over time? I've now had the car for 3.5 months and have about 6500 miles.
Does anyone know if there is an engineering reason that would prevent Honda from just turning this off - aside from the lost of ~ 2 mpg? And of course, the loss to their technology image!
Hank - in 1983 we test drove several Accord Automatics with lock up OD and loved them. Bought one we had NOT driven - drove it out the door and it started "hunting" when on the highway" - in and out of OD - and yes, of course the engine RPMs would go up and down. Your memory of the road about which I was talking in NJ is correct - it does have some changes of elevation - but not enough that I should have been experiencing what I was - our 1990 Legend V-6 (we had bought it for our son while in college) would never shift gears on cruise conrtol over the same stretch of road - you could simply feel or hear the engine adjust to compensate for the inclines. And that was 161 HP vs. 268hp??
This will be my last post unless someone provokes me again. Princess and the pea? Moron. :mad: :mad: :mad:
Although the ability to turn it off might exist, unfortunately that doesn't fix the problem. We have all paid for the newest technology, and for it's minimal but potential fuel savings. I am not willing to give that up for an extended warranty. What if the ABS would suddenly suffer a problem - would it be acceptable to disable that feature - absolutely not. My vehicle is leased - and I do not enjoy the highway experience. Fix or take back - only two options.
I do not have to own a 2008 Accord V6 to be able to read. The results of that detailed reading of thousands of Carspace posts are summarized above.
Since you guys feel there is a much more widespread problem than with the ten posters here in CarSpace, I just did a search of TOV postings over past few months. The following are the only four forums with any mention of the subject by unhappy drivers:
http://tinyurl.com/2egk3k One page, no Accord problems
http://tinyurl.com/237jcw One page, no problems
http://tinyurl.com/2bkpop Only one poster with a problem. At the end two pages of back and forth posts he wrote: "Honda has just stepped up to the plate and is installing a new engine. The existing engine will be returned to engineering for further testing. The new engine will arrive tomorrow (Thursday), and we are hopeful at having the car back on Monday."
A second poster, who thought he had the same problem, was using 92 octane fuel. When he switched to the correct 87 octane the problem disappeared.
http://tinyurl.com/2hncz3 Only one poster with a problem. At the end two pages of back and forth posts he wrote "I want to be clear here that this is very minor, ever so slight but you can feel it . The dealer replaced my 08 with another new 08 Accord. I do not have the vibration problem in this car and I am a happy customer.
A big thank you to Honda for stepping up to plate and making things right."
Of course there were probably a thousand recent posts in other TOV forums. But none were related to VCM.
You wrote "Great job Blane,,, so let me ask you,,, how long have you worked for Honda?
Gimme a break. issue is real, issue is bad, issue is getting worse in growing numbers all over the net including now issues written in the Wall Street Journal. nice try, no cigar."
Sorry, I have never worked for Honda or any other auto manufacturer. (I tried to sell Fords for about a month when I was between jobs about twelve years ago. What a lousy way to make a living.)
You wrote about "growing numbers" Please provide valid links where we can all see those numbers and be educated.
As CarsSpace members we each have an equal right to discuss the subject . Please keep it factual and perhaps you folks will be able to resolve what appear to be problems isolated to ten vehicles. See the links in post #509 where two owners did exactly that.
I haven't questioned your "ownership", just the unfounded statements made by a few posters about the extent of the problem. Please just read the numbers and if you don't believe them, do your own research. You will come to the same conclusion. So far there are only ten vehicles that have had reported problems in these forums. There are lots of other 2008 Accord V6 owners who have reported absolutely none.
The Accord is Honda's bread and butter — some 369,293 examples were sold in the U.S. alone during 2006, so there's a lot riding on its success. Out of these 369,293 units, about 20 to 30% were V6.
The '08 V6 EX-L is a very fine sport sedan with strong muscles. Jedelicka, auto crititic at MSN test drove it and he loved it. He said its engine is one of the best engine on earth. ECO light on and off frequently is OK with me. If Phantomy, Donnegal, Sunnfun & Golf do not like that ECO light please use a small piece of duck tape to cover it.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/LongTerm/articleId=123532?imw=Y
simply dissapointing.