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Vintage Car Identification Help!
savannahjames
Member Posts: 2
in General
I would really appreciate help identifying the car in this photo. I only have a vague idea of when the photo might have been taken - I am guessing somewhere between 1915 and the early 1920s, but I am really not sure. I only have this one photo of the car. Identifying the car would help me pinpoint the date it was taken, which would help me in identifying the men in the photo as well.
Any ideas would be appreciated!
Any ideas would be appreciated!
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Body shapes were almost generic and many cars were called "assembled" cars---that is, the automaker bought the parts from suppliers and bolted them together and put his name on it. So look alikes are common for this reason.
Thanks so much for your help!
Really I think your task is impossible because you can't see the car. I mean people will guess but with over 1,000 manufacturers, many of them only local within a few hundred miles, this is going to be very tough.
Of course, if you are a monk with plenty of time and access to thousands of photos, you MIGHT get lucky!
But then, the photo would also have to be labeled, and then you'd have to be sure the label was correct.
I also collect old car photos, and I have seen where the person labels the car in pencil and it isn't the right year (usually the right make, though).
I even have cars that I CAN see the front grille and nobody can identify. Often local businesses would put their own grille ornaments and names on the cars.
All I can say with any certainty is a) it's american and b) it's about 1918.
They seem to be able to identify a car from nothing...
Thanks
Wolf-==-
http://www.southslope.net/~paradimes/vintageauto.jpg
My guess is a 1926 Chevrolet Model V Imperial Landau -- I base that on the squarish rear door window.
Here's another image of a 26 I found online...looks like the same car:
FWIW, this style, somewhat popular in the late 20s, is kind of the first fake convertible - the rear section does not go down. Fake landau bars predate 70s pimpiness.
Both photos are ID's as 26 Chevys
Disk wheels were an answer to the dangerous wooden artillery wheels--disk wheels are also a sure visual cue of a less expensive car.
The reason closed cars have leather roofs in the 20s is to cover up an opening that has wooden struts in it. In the 1920, automakers had still not figured out how to mass-produce a single, solid roof stamping. They had to piece the roof together.
Only in the 1930s do we see the one-piece "turret top", mass-produced car with solid metal roof (of course, custom coachbuilders made them earlier). This technique of large stampings came from the railroad car industry. (Budd).
So anyway, I used disk wheels and leather roof to tell me the car was 1920s, and also seeing that it was a closed car to date it at least 1924 on up. Also the leather roof kept it from being a 30s car, more or less.
Also in the 1930s we see the start of the 'bustle trunk", that is, a trunk lid rather than a separate trunk bolted on the straight back of the car, like the one in this picture would have carried.
Yeah by 1935 or so the integrated trunk was the norm, and steel bodies etc came on right after. Very few closed cars before 1922 - the Essex was the first massmarket/affordable closed car, it had a significant impact. By 1930, most wanted a closed car.
Speaking of that Chevy, Here's a Buick from the fintail family album...about the same year as the Chevy, probably shares a few parts.
Probably the most modern car of that time period, in mass production I mean, was the new 1924 Chrysler.
Thanks again and...
Cheers!
Wolf-==-
Yeah, the braking system alone on that Chrysler was a generation ahead of anything else. A milestone car.
So they went back and forth for a while but then Chevy started coming out with lots of styles, colors, options in the 1930s. Ford fought back with their V-8, but GM was relentless and by the early 50s they were pulling away. Henry Senior was a stubborn old coot and until he passed away it was very difficult to innovate at Ford. It really took the Mustang to revive the company.
http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/feb/12/1n12kellner233823-promise-kep- t-share-diary-[non-permissible content removed]-di/?metro
A Google search would give you a lot of additional information about him.
I have two photographs that belonged to him, with a different car in each photo, and I am wondering if someone here can help me identify the names and the years of these cars. I am even having to guess at the date the photos were taken. For example, the first photo may have been taken anytime between 1924 and 1934, and the second photo may have been taken anytime between 1936 and 1944.
My grandfather lived in Germany all his life, so I am assuming the cars are German or French or Swiss. The hood (or radiator) ornament on the car in the 1940 photo looks a little like a Studebaker ornament, although not quite the same. Otherwise the body of the car looks like a Voisson, but the Voisson has a very identifiable hood ornament of two large upright wings, so this cannot be a Voisson. Try as I might, I cannot find any photo of these cars on the Internet.
My Edmunds album is here with the photos
Thank you very much, Scott.
The first one I have no idea, but the style of it makes me think it is French. It is from the late 20s.
The second one is from the early 30s, and I suspect that one is German. The horizontal hood vent partially visible in the photo reminds me of a period Stoewer, a car built in Stettin. But I am not certain about this at all.
There are some European members and experts at the AACA forum available via this link who suspect will know what those cars are
If you are unable to post pics there I could do it for you.
Again, thank you. I will continue to check back here and at the other site until the mystery is solved. I have also sent out some emails to people who posted on the Oldtimers Gallery, so perhaps something will come of all this.
Scott
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C18527/
and it looks more like my grandfather's car than the Citroen AC 4. The AC 4 has three side windows, so it is a longer car, but this C4 1X has two side windows. Except the side roof post at the back is much wider in the C4 1X than on my grandfather's car. And the question arises about the placement of the spare tire, which is on the passenger side of my grandfather's car, but it is not visible on the passenger side of the C4 1X (which is the only side shown in the series of photos about it). Is it possible the car was built by some now unknown company that used the Citroen as its model? Scott
American car buffs would probably be clueless about all this. You'd need to post in forums that were more for global auto historians.
One good place would be a respected European Automotive Museum. They might do the research for you, for a small fee. For instance:
Centre International de l'Automobile
25 rue d'Estienne d'Orves
F-93500 Paris
France
or
www.collection-schlumpf.com
I got a few replies at the AACA forum. Someone thinks the first car is a Stoewer - which I do not agree with, as all period Stoewers I know of had a prominent theme of horizontal hood vents. Also a suggestion about the second car could be a Steyr - which could be the case with that clue on the hood ornament. Over the years Steyr also built several designs under license, so the car could have another origin. Someone also suggested it could be a Wanderer - which I suspect is not correct, again because of the hood vents. That horizontal line is a key clue to the identity of the car, IMO.
Someone else at that other forum now sees a Steyr/Austro-Daimler connection in the second car. That might be it...but I still think the unusual horizontal hood vent is the key.
There was a bodymaker in Dresden named 'Glaser' who built bodies very much like the one in that photo. I have even seen them on Fords and GM products sold in Europe at the time.
I do think the first car is probably a form of a Citroen, yet it also looks like a Praga Piccolo and Wolseley Hornet, which further underscores the difficulty in being able to make a definitive decision.
I am working with some professors at Justus Liebig University in Giessen to bring the Kellner diary into print (which should occur by next year), and I will send them these photos and see if they can find an answer. I do want to thank you gentlemen for your efforts. I will continue to monitor this and the other websites. I most certainly have had an interesting education these past few days trying to ascertain the make and year of these two cars. I had no idea so many automobile manufacturers existed in the early days of automobile production. That was capitalism at its best, I think, for it ultimately led to the grand automobiles we now have, with 100,000 mile guarantees, etc. We own a VW Passat and a Mazda Miata, so as charming as the old car styles are, there are some wonderfully charming new cars, as well. Scott
It's also not a large car, so probably not from any prestige maker. It's a typical upper middle class style from ca. 1930. I haven't seen any Austro-Daimlers of that size, but I am not an expert on that make.
I have to believe the first car is French...I can't imagine it being British, anyway. Sadly, the depression and the war killed off countless little European makers, so Euro cars of this area are exponentially more difficult to identify than American cars of the period.
If there are any updates at the AACA forum I will post them here.
As for the cabriolet, I shall eliminate it being a Mercedes. Except for the engine vents, it looks like a 1931 Wanderer W14, including the two spare tires, of which only two dozen were made. So, if nothing else, I can make that statement, too, and assume my grandfather bought one used. Scott
I do believe he is right. Do you both think so, too?
You might have to cut and paste this URL
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:MHV_Steyr_30_S_1932_02.jpg
Scott
Hanomag is the identity for sure. I also found another photo in my album of my grandfather's car, a top view, showing the cabriolet-type top, kind of a strange top. I have added that photo to my Edmunds Carspace album.
In no way would I have found this information by myself, and so I am very grateful to the moderator here, Mr. Shiftright, who initially suggested I place the question on this forum, and then to Fintail, who so kindly took on this task and even expanded the search to the AACA board--and then of course the work of Vintman and Lief. It is all so very much appreciated. Thank you. Scott
The new photo is a good help too, sure makes the car look small, but adds very important clues.
Now to prove the identity of the elegant little cabrio. I do suspect it is somehow connected to the Steyr family.
See
http://www.austrodaimler.at/resize_pic.php?pic=.%2Fbilder%2FAutos%2FADR6-Bergmei- ster-1931-34.jpg&width=450
The house is in San Antonio, Texas. Home was built in 1907. Judging from some of the other photos that I have this could be 1915-1920? The round emblem near the driver appears to be an "H". Thanks
sorry having trouble attaching image.. will soon
[url=http://www.hiboox.com/go/pictures/miscellaneous/dsc01184,9db217478adae5557a- 153ac4206763b3.jpg.html][img]http://images3.hiboox.com/vignettes/2209/9db217478a- dae5557a153ac4206763b3.jpg[/img][/url]
What you do is display your picture on the Hiboox site. Then highlight and copy the URL that appears in your location bar up top, then come here, click on "IMG" once, then paste in the URL, then click on "IMG" again.
Or just past the URL in the box here.
Also just post in ONE topic, this one. Don't duplicate your postings if you can avoid it. Thanks! Look forward to seeing the image.
You can start your own Carspace page here at www.carspace.com. It will allow you to create a photo album and upload directly from your computer's hard drive. Then all you have to do is send us the link to your carspace page and we can view your photo album.
Or e-mail me that photo and I'll post it for you.
http://www.carspace.com/drbroke/Albums/drbroke%27s%20Album/DSC01184.JPG
But I hate to say it, I have no idea what that old beast is, but something about it to me says Buick or Olds from maybe 1913-14. It appears to have electric headlights, which would make it after 1912, but the fenders suggest early teens.
The people at this AACA forum will probably know it down to the year and model in no time
Don't think it's a GM car. Doesn't have the Packard louvers and tall radiator filler. Not a very graceful car, rather industrial from the photo at least.
The problem with cars of this age is that they made so many makes of car back then---well over 1500 separate brands---and many of these were in fact "assembled" cars, that is, the automaker merely bought parts from suppliers and bolted together a car out of them. So the assembled cars rarely have distinctive body work.
Another factor is that some cars were made only locally, say Ohio, and never went outside the state.
I like to blow up the photos and try to read off the wheel hubs or hood ornament. It's a lot easier when you have a look at the front of the car.