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HHO kits - Do they really work?
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I think the position that these things are scams is pretty well founded as there's pretty much no credible proof that they actually do anything but line the pockets of those selling them.
I understand that one of the main drawbacks about these systems is the energy needed to produce the hydrogen cancels out any mileage gain. But if it were theoretically possible to somehow produce the HHO gas from the engine's power, would the resulting HHO gas actually make a difference?
I remember the Mythbusters episode where they showed that an un-modified engine will run on straight hydrogen gas (and their HHO system didn't actually work, either. And yes, I also know that there are manufacturers making hydrogen cars). I realize that it isn't possible to get enough HHO from water out of any onboard system to completely run a car, but can it be done at all on any level?
I guess what I'm asking is:
1) Does the introduction of hydrogen gas into a standard/un-modified engine make any difference in mileage at all?
2) If it were possible to somehow generate the HHO onboard, would there be enough gas made to make a difference?
I'll admit that when I first heard about these things I got all excited....until the exact physics were explained to me. So now I am squarely in the skeptics camp until I can actually see the technology demonstrated before my eyes.
Yeah you can run an engine on hydrogen but you'd have to replace the fuel delivery system entirely and you'll have to install a pretty monstrous fuel tank.
Can you generate enough hydrogen onboard? No, that seems impossible unless you use fuel cell technology, which doesn't burn hydrogen, but uses it to generate electricity for motors.
That's what I think anyway.
2) No, your car's alternator can't pump out that much electricity. Here's another way to put it in perspective - a gallon of gasoline, when burnt, makes CO2 and about a gallon of water. So if you want to make enough hydrogen on board your vehicle to power it, you have to carry gallons, not pints, of water, and have the power to turn a gallon of water into H2 and O2 every 20 or so miles. Not possible.
If you actually have made this work, great. Enjoy the millions you are going to make producing and selling this modern miracle, because EVERYONE, including me, is going to want one. But I'm not holding my breath.
You're claiming to have increased mileage from 21 to 35 mpg. That's 67%. Quite frankly that's not believeable. This is right along the lines of investment scams that promise insane retuns in just a month. And please don't tell me how the automakers want to keep this technology down. Any one of the Big Three would kill right now to have something that actually does this.
Maybe you should contact Mike Allen at Popular Mechanics and tell him what he did wrong when he tested a kit.
The 35 mpg sounds incredible. Where did all this extra energy come from exactly? We know there's not enough hydrogen generated to do anything, even if you could get it into the engine (I don't think it ever made it to your pistons), and if you leaned out your mixture to 20:1, as some HHO people are recommending, not only are you in the danger zone (to say the least) but you still wouldn't get 35 mpg.
When Ford tests your device and certifies 35 mpg, post it here please!
No fair using facts, those don't apply to HHO, remember! :sick:
THEM: "Well, the oceans are throwing off CO2 into the atmosphere at 20 times the rate that the burning of fossil fuel is. So the C02 is not man-made for the most part"
ME: "No, that's an inaccurate number. it's 2.5 to 4 times the rate, and the C02 from ocean vs. fossil burning vs. plant life all have different isotopes. So one has to measure the rate of increase of the various isotopes to see if the fossil fuel rate is increasing rapidly vs. the steady state of the ocean C02 and plant life isotopes"
THEM: "Whatever.....and another thing, in the last Ice Age......."
746 watts per horsepower
About 20-25 HP to have car cruise on the level at 65 mph.
so 15KW
Your fuel mileage claim would suggest at least 50% of the power must now come from hydrogen, so you'd need about 7.5 KW of energy from hydrogen.
So your electrolysis, if 100% efficient (which electrolysis is definitely not), requires
7500 watts / 12volts or 625 amps of current.
And where does that come from?
Your alternator is good for about 80 amps, leaving your battery to supply 545 amps.
Also keep in mind that gasoline engines are only about 30% efficient, so even if you supplied 7.5 KW of power through hydrogen, actual usable power to the engine would be about 2.5KW.
It just doesn't add up.
The 'outside air' you are talking about...do you mean the air coming in thru the air cleaner?
What model car did you do this on?
thanks
And even if pure hydrogen in sufficient amounts could be somehow injected into the gas engine, that would only account for about a 15% increase in thermal efficiency---still not enough to explain a 50% increase in gas mileage.
Please answer:
What happens if you place your car at idle at 1000 rpm, then flip ON the electrolysis switch?
With the switch off at 60 mph, and gas pedal absolutely steady, what happens when you flip the switch on?
Hydrogen from solar, biological, or electrical sources require more energy to make it than is obtained by burning it and your device cannot produce enough hydrogen to make any difference in the power produced by an internal combustion engine. For you to make 1 kilogram of hydrogen, you'd have to use as much electricity as it would take to completely power your home for about 3 days.
Hydrogen is an energy carrier, like a battery, not an energy source. This is the fuel cell principle upon which "hydrogen cars" we read about are being propelled.
The hydrogen should be able to go right through a vacuum hose. An ordinary vacuum hose does not possess hydrogen fuel permeability in other words.
Also hydrogen has very low energy density, so even if you could find enough hydrogen to run an engine (or Honda generator), you couldn't pump it in enough volume unless you use some kind of fan or pressurized fuel injection. Vacuum couldn't suck enough in.
Edison's light bulb DID light up, Orville's plane actually flew.
They didn't "tell people" it lit up, or it flew, they showed people.
People have offered (and the offer still stands) ONE MILLION DOLLARS to anyone who could prove that these HHO devices work.
Result? No takers so far.
Would you like to apply for the one million bucks? Let me know.
So, to answer your question:
How could you prove this to me?
Simple.
Bring me your car.
Hook up a switch to the electrolysis device to turn it on and off
Start the car and let it idle at 1000 rpm
Turn on the switch and let's see if the idle goes up to 1500
(since the claim is 50% more power)
THEN
go on the highway and maintain a steady gas pedal at 60 mph
turn on the switch and the car should accelerate to 90 mph by itself
(again, to verify 50% more power from hydrogen)
THEN
install your device to your liking and let me drive the car for one month
THEN
take off the device and let me drive the car for one month.
Should it pass these simple tests I would certainly be convinced, as would the rest of the world that this miracle has saved us all from a global energy crisis.
This invention should be worth hundreds of billions of dollars.
Prove it then. Take it to some university or laboratory, have them test it, and publish the results.
Otherwise, it just sounds like...forgive me...an elusive form of practical joke and a classic textbook scam, with the usual conspiracy theories, the lone inventor who discovers something that has been ignored for decades by science, the incredible claims of success, the refusal to submit to testing by "unbelievers", etc. etc.
So- bunnell
please answer this
what model car did your son get the 80 MPG from and was it carburated or injected.
also just a note to the poster who said hho will leak right through a container or hose used in such a device..
.hygrogen may pass through some materials but obviously not all.
I've said it a couple times before but once again anyone who scoffs at this idea should just get off their duffs and make one. You could do it in a day- easy
Just 3 easy payments of $499.95 will get you my amazing mileage improvement system. And all you have to do is buy Krispy Kreme donuts and run them through the special processing equipment I'll sell you.
Just as valid by your logic. I insist that it works, therefore it MUST.
You want to tinker, that's great. You claim that your tinkering results in something fantastic, YOU have to demonstrate and prove it works. I don't know about you, but that's how I avoid getting taken in by a scam.
The people who invested with that Madoff guy were told that they were getting unbelieveable results as well.
You are trying to be a prosecuting attorney. Even if I wanted to, I doubt that the rapidly growing group of hho enthusiasts or I could prove anything to You. however, since You are the accuser, it is Your responsibility to prove that We, the accused are wrong. Only thing wrong with that, is You would have to build one and test it Yourself. Incidently, where did i make a claim of 50% more power? I made the claim of increased mileage. I did make a claim of improved performance. I still do. You probably know that a car can be made to use more fuel with less performance too.When You decide that the increasing majority of us are wrong, try to remember that We are SUPPOSED to live in a democracy where majority rules,and the accused is innocent til proven guilty
Basically, anything that violates the laws of science is considered a miracle.
So if you want to present HHO devices as miracles that cannot be explained by the laws of science, then what you really have here is a type of religion, not a gas saving device.
And in that sense you are correct, you have the right to believe whatever you wish, as long as you don't cause harm to the general population.
From my point of view, spreading false notions of how science works does tend to weaken the value of education and the processes of critical thinking in a population.
I don't have to build it. People have already built it. Popular Mechanics built it. Mythbuilders built it. Curious people have websites where they built it.
And none of them worked. Ever. Not one fraction of a percent of an increase in fuel mileage.
Sure, you can hook up that jar and hoses and get some bubbles and then drive REALLY carefully and retard your timing and lean out your mixture and you WILL get better fuel mileage---but it has nothing to do with the device in your car.
Besides all that, hydrogen is dangerous. Even the small amount you might generate by electrolysis (not enough to run an engine or even assist it) can explode right in your face.
So I'm not being your judge. I'm just interested in showing you various tests to prove to you that your device does not, can not, will not, work, so that you don't waste your time and everyone else's.
This HHO thing is like a chain-letter on the Internet. Many people who send them are not con-artists, but they are wasting a lot of good time IMO.
We WANT it to work. If it works, I want one NOW. As Shifty said, this would change the world, not to mention make the inventor wealthy enough to call him Bill instead of Mr. Gates. But to date, nobody has ever proved anything other than PT Barnum was right.
So, don't tell us it works, SHOW us it works and I'll refinance my mortage to get in on the ground floor and so will everyone else. But showing that it works is going to be the tricky part isn't it?
1. We'll hook up a switch to activate and deactivate the electrolysis device
2. Then we'll let the car idle at 1000 rpm with the switch off.
3. Then we'll flip the switch on, and the engine should speed up considerably. If the mileage claim was 40% improvement, we should get about 1400 rpm without touching the gas.
4. Next test. Same thing on the highway. We'll set the gas at 60 mph (no cruise control), then flip the switch. We should start accelerating from all that extra hydrogen power.
5. Then we'll do a smog test. If the car has been manipulated with timing, lean mixture, etc. to give better fuel mileage, the car will fail the emissions test---thereby signifying perhaps a) that it cannot be marketed and b) that it might be harming the engine
So if it passes the idle test, the highway test and the smog test, I'm a believer, totally.
Go West young man! I'm here with an open mind and a set of measuring tools.
"The high tech hydrogen storage tank has a capacity of approximately 17.6 lb of liquid hydrogen, giving the Hydrogen 7 a cruising range in hydrogen mode upwards of 125 miles"
One lb. of liquid hydrogen has about 50,000 BTU.
So 50,000 Btu X 17.6 lbs of Liquid Hydrogen give you the total energy necessary to drive a BMW 125 miles.
That's 880,000 Btu, or roughly 7,040 Btu per mile
A gallon of pure hydrogen gas (not liquid, not compressed) gives about 40 Btu.
This means that the HHO generator would have to make 176 gallons of hydrogen gas for each mile the car is running on hydrogen alone.
If "mixed" with gasoline (somehow, in a manner not explained) this gas, having "boosted" the MPG by 40% (or so the claims go), must have added 40% of the Btu, right?
So if the "test car' normally went 15 MPG on gasoline, and now gets 21 MPG with the HHO generator (40% better MPG), then we could assume:
1 gal of gas @ 125,000 Btu (divided by) 15 miles = 8,300 Btu per mile.
So the HHO generator had to provide 6 extra miles X 8300 Btu = 49,800 Btu
At 40 Btu for a gallon of pure hydrogen gas, this means the HHO generator would have to produce 1,245 gallons of hydrogen in the time it takes the "test car" to go 21 miles.
That's about 59 gallons per mile!!
This HHO generator is not even remotely able to generate enough hydrogen to make any difference whatsoever. I doubt it could propel a cigarette lighter much less a car.
What is fascinating to me is that in the face of these numbers, somehow the "believers" continue to believe, as if Btu numbers were some kind of "trick" or even debatable as evidence.
The BMW can be switched from hydrogen fuel to gasoline seamlessly, and if it uses up BOTH its hydrogen tank AND its gasoline tank, total range is 400 miles.
And people are claiming 40 mpg on V-8 cars using a mayonnaise jar, a battery, some water, and some tubing.
Oh, well.
This is getting close to being declared a religion :shades:
You can't make something out of nothing in other words.
Just being ridiculed is hardly a sign of greatness. Lots of people are ridiculed and for good reason. The small percentage of great inventors who initially met with skepticism from the general public do not constitute the vast majority of people who are ridiculed for ideas that simply don't work.
It's not that I "don't believe"... it's that everything I know, things that are FACTS, tells me it cannot work as is being claimed.
This is really simple. If you want to make others believe that what you're saying is true, demonstrate it. Publicly, verifiably, repeatedly.
Every challenge that is offered... to do it on another vehicle, to show that you don't have to modify the car to the point where it violates emissions laws... all we hear is some kind of excuse and how it's the shortsightedness of those who don't believe.
You just returned from the Philippines, the place where "psychic surgery" got its big start. There are people who believe in that con as well.