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Anyway, here is my reasoning on buying an SUV.
- I don't need one/ can't afford one until late this year (probably Nov-Dec time frame)
- I want an SUV for the high seating position, to not have to put on chains going to Tahoe, and for the room (useful when remodeling my house).
- Wife definitely wants a 7 passenger vehicle (2 of us, one kid, one on the way, and grand parents/family once in a while). Basically, the third row would not be used much, but would come in very handy when needed.
- I hate minivans (not rational, but heck, it's my money).
- I want full independent suspensions, some type of AWD for the comfort/handling/safety in everyday conditions.
- a automatic 5 speed is a nice bonus when driving up hill
Based on those needs, the current crop of possible SUVs is:
- Honda Pilot, so far on top of my list, but afraid of the potential in dealer gouging, especially in SF bay area.
- ML 320 and Acura MDX, but getting out my price range
- Ford Explorer, but so so reviews and bad reputation make me want to stay away from it.
- VW Touareg, not a 7 passenger apparently, and I have a VW Golf, my first and my LAST VW.
- Envoy XL: looks too big and weird, no IRS, reliability issues.
- 4Runner 03: not sure about 3 row seats, no IRS
Anyway, I think it's back to the Pilot, and maybe waiting out the rush on it.
How about a used Sequoia?
I hear there may also be a full size Nissan SUV coming out possibly next year.
Land Rover is not my cup of tea (reliability, comfort, etc.). The Sequoia would be more of a fall back SUV, as it is more of a truck and less of car (I know it's heresy to a lot of ppl...), and a bit higher on the price scale. However, it is something to keep in mind.
Thanks for the suggestions. Did not mean to hog the board like that. Hopefully, it is useful to others too.
3rd row would be perfect for young ones.
Sorry, I don't buy your argument about IRS as not being able to tow...
And... to add further fuel to the fire, the next F-150 pickup is rumored to have IRS. Ford apparently has a lot of confidence that IRS can handle tough jobs.
Bob
I believe that the reason that we've been having live axle trucks for all those years is simple: profits. Live axle is a technology that dates back to the very first cars, therefore it's super cheap to make. BTW, I believe that the first SUV with IRS was the ML 320. Basically, if it weren't for imports, all domestic SUV would still be sporting live axles front and rear.
My $0.02
Currently, a live rear axle set-up still rules the towing/load contest. As far as the Explorer, it's tow rating is only 5500 lbs compared to the Trailblazer/Envoy/Bravada's at 6200 lbs. I don't know what the tow ratings are, but the new Expedition's load capacity is 1486 lbs. vs 1767 lbs. for the Yukon.
This will change with time and technology, and I hope it happens soon, because it is a superior ride, but for now , it's not true that it's a better way to go for strength.
The only thing I think I may miss is the AWD of the Subaru Forester I am driving. It sure does do well in the rain. Any comments?
Most SCORE & desert racing trucks have it as well. They're certainly strong enough & obtain excellent wheel travel.
Again, I'm right with you on the benefits of independent suspensions, but let's stick to the discussion of production vehicles. Because I could go slap all kinds of after-market components on anything and say it's better than something else. I would prefer everyone move to 4WIS, if they're made to stand up to what current solid rear axles can do. I think that day is just around the corner, but until then, there are SUVs out there that have an IFS, but solid rear axle, that have just as nice of a ride or better than others in their class. I think the new 4Runner with it's solid rear axle will be one of those class-leaders.
Please don't think I'm part of the group of fanatics who live and die by SRA, I'm not at all. I'm merely trying to help people make an educated decision about an expensive purchase, by not ruling vehicles out solely on the fact they don't have 4WIS. They should test drive everything that falls into their price range and has the basic features they require. The drive will let them know the facts about how good the suspension rides, not the perception. I have driven the Trailblazer with coils in the rear and the Envoy with the air bladders in the rear, and the Explorer with IRS, and was sure I'd prefer the Explorer, but I didn't. The Envoy has an amazing ride, although I'd prefer it have a little less roll. That's my opinion of my driving experience. I think everyone should do the same before they spend their hard-earned $.
Solid axles - I love 'em. Have had 2 Toyota 4WD's. Great machines & trouble free.
My description above wasn't a straight comparison. Just merely pointing out the fact that the technology is there wether it be for commercial use or custom. It's nothing new. It only takes one manufacturer to start it until they all jump in. Look what happened to SUV's in general. They've been around a while.
I just don't think anyone would really have a problem towing with an IRS system. They are pretty solid if built right.
This is my first SUV and I was concerned about driving in the rain. I was pleasantly surprised with how well it handles. I thought with such big tires it would hydroplane, but it just plows through huge puddles. It is very hard to get into a skid and I feel it is the safest car I have for the rain.
I think the price you quoted for the SR5 4Runner is very good. Changing a new car for another new car, you will take a financial hit, still it is not real bad.
My biggest concern for you is the ride on the 4Runner. When I bought mine, after a few days I thought I made a mistake. Now I love it, still the ride can be stiff and a bit bouncey.
--------------------------------
(A side note: I got a flat yesterday, a nail in the tire. Changing a tire on the 4Runner is a LOT different than on my small Honda and Acura. After I got the spare out, it is amazing how much room is under the car. If you get the 4Runner, I would assume that changing the tire would be different that the Forester.)
front legroom by .4"
front headroom by .9" (significant)
rear headroom by .9" (significant)
front hiproom by 1.6" (significant)
passenger volume (by 7 cu.ft.)
When you compare 4Runner and Legacy, the Legacy wins virtually everything, except rear legroom (Legacy loses by .6") and cargo room (Legacy loses by 10.3 cu.ft. with seats up, 11.2 with seats folded - and this is very significant indeed).
All numbers from carsdirect.com
I am in no way bashing the 4Runner, it's a great truck, and I am seriously thiking about buying the 2003 MY, but if you also need passenger room, in addition to cargo room, moving from Forester to 4Runner will actually set you back a bit. If you only need cargo room, the current 4Runner is a no-brainer.
Next, you have to consider what they will actually sell for. Right now, an SR5 with a $34K sticker has roughly a $30K invoice. Most dealers will sell them pretty close to invoice and give you the $1500 rebate to boot. This places the transaction cost at $28500. If the '03 with a V8 has a sticker of $34K, it will not matter what the invoice is because you wont be able to get close to it for months (maybe even years). Some dealers may even mark them up. This means that while the sticker price will be the same, your transaction cost will be $5500 higher for the '03.
Just a thought.
Again, while the current 4Runner is a great truck, with engine and interior short-comings, I would really encourage people to wait for the new model, especially since Toyota says they're keeping the price about the same, and lowering it for some model packages.
tbcreative, as Cliffy said, I saw a video of the new 4Runner (and Matrix and new Sienna). We (employees) aren't allowed any photos, and I saw the video in either January or February, so it's starting to get a little fuzzy. But my impressions are still clear, and I disagree that the pics of the Prado are the new 4Runner. I very distinctly remember that the bar between the second door and rear window slanted forward, just like the '02 model, and not vertical like the new GX470 or Prado. The front headlights looked very similar to the Sequoia's along with its hood. But the grill looked like the '02 4Runner. I was with 2 other people, and we all agreed that if you saw this SUV coming at you down the road, there would be no mistaking it for anything but a 4Runner.
The video was designed for a presentation, so there was no sound. The presenter (in this case an EVP for Toyota Motor Sales) was to provide the information. He spoke mostly about the interior being "sportscar like" and a large improvement over the '02 model. From the video, I agree with him. He said it will have a new 4WD with downhill braking assist.
No 3rd seat was shown, and they didn't open the rear gate or window. The video started at the grill, zoomed back, then went down the left side and to the rear. It then went into the interior and showed the clustered IP, seats, and restyled doors.
I've checked with a port on the West coast, and they confirm an August delivery for dealers (no sales) and then general availability in September.
Believe me, I'm just as anxious as anyone. My last new vehicle was in '89 (which I still drive every day) and I'm more than ready. What I saw in the video is closer to the '02 in styling, and in my opinion, much nicer looking than the Prado; not as harsh looking, more stylish. I want the larger engine (6 or 8) and I would have liked the 3rd seat, even if it held only 2 people.
We're only a few months away. Hang in there!
I just want to be sure I'm understanding you. In the pictures I posted I said that the only ones representing the new platform were the GX 470, the Prado illustration (not the old Prado pics), and the 2 black-out covered spy shots. My understanding is the 2 spy shots are the 4Runner. Is that not true? Are they actually the Prado? Because the split grill looks more like a 4Runner, and different from the grill on the Prado illustration. Also the "B" pillar bar slants back in the spy shots, like you describe. I know you're busy, and so am I, but I'm going nuts in anticipation! Just want to get it all straight... Thanks.
I think what one needs to do, is go to a dealership to see how the car fits you personally. I am 6'4" and I don't even talk about the car until I have tried it on for size. If you don't feel comfortable, don't buy it.
Sean
The 4Runner is clearly safer, being bigger/heavier, better for towing etc. etc. As I said, I am not bashing it, actually I think it is a high quality, solid truck. And I am looking forward to the new 2003 4Runner with the bigger engine, more room, and full-time 4WD (which I think is superior to Honda's AWD for example)... Is it worth though to take a somewhat big financial hit, and change your 2002 Forester, with the 2002 4Runner, if your main criteria is more room? My answer would be no, but that's just my opinion
BTW, I am only 5'7", and my wife is 5'3". When she drives the Forester, even an NBA player would fit in the back . I appologize if my post seemed offensive or inflamatory, that was definitely not my intention.
For more stats of what may describe the '03 4Runner, go to http://www.suv.com and read the GX 470 article.
I've seen a lot of shots of the Prado, and it just doesn't look like the 4Runner I saw in the video. Maybe, just a little, around the grill, but if you go look at the '02 grill, that would give you a pretty good idea of the '03. Look at the slant of the rear window post too. The GX470 has a slight slant, but the 4Runner's is more pronounced.
The spy shots, especially the black one in the snow, *may* have been one, but if you zoom in with some graphics software you can see the cover ups they use to disguise the car. (They're made of the same material as the "bras" that you've seen on some cars.) With the cover ups and bad lighting, it's difficult to tell. Recently I saw two new Cadillac SUVs (Escalades?) on the interstate and the only things that weren't covered up were the windows and lights. But they were flanked front and back by new CTS vehicles, and being the right size I assumed they were the Escalade. Manufacturers keep these vehicles pretty well disguised. (When the new Camry was being developed we saw blue cars with red and green doors, added chrome, phony windows, and lots of cover up material. Even if you saw it you still wouldn't know what the final product looked like.)
When you compare the GX470 to the new 4Runner I think you'll find that they share some major components, like the engine and tranny. But Lexus models will always have more (and better quality) goodies, sound proofing, carpeting, options etc. The GX470 is sporting the 3rd seat, but it also has the side opening rear door instead of the standard tailgate. The GX470 will cost a lot more too.
A while back I think one of the Toyota salesmen in here (not Cliffy) posted a pretty comprehensive list of items. Those guys will have statistics long before I do. When Cliffy publishes, you can go to the bank on it. He's bonafide! :-)
But my take on the video (as well as the other guys in the room) all felt that there just wasn't that dramatic a change to the exterior. At least not for styling, but the size was to increase. Now the interior is dramatically changed, and that's what interests me, cause that's where I sit.
But hey, 10 weeks and you can go to your local dealership and drool. You'll have to wait for September anyway, even after you see it, before you can buy it, and don't expect any deal during that time. I have to wait until the start of '03 anyway, so I'm content to kick back and wait. I've got enough information to convince me to wait for the nice interior and improved V6.
02 ES300 engine is 3 liter 210 HP
02 RX300 engine is 3 liter 220 HP
Cliffy says the new V6 on the 4runner is 4 liter (maybe 3.8) (post 1583)
Steveb84 (post 1591) says these are the new engines for the 4Runner:
V6 - 245 hp & 283 ft/lbs torque
V8 - 232 hp & 320 ft/lbs torque
When I have 150,000 miles on this puppy I'll trade it in for a 2009 4 runner that alot of you guys/girls will be saying is out dated because the new 2010 is just around the corner. Please this truck still rocks. I sit at a traffic light next to an "all new" Ford Explorer and wonder what that individual was thinking.
I will say this though, when the new 4 runners come out, if anyone out there driving one, pulls up next to an all black 2002 and you can't believe the guy in the drivers seat doesn't even acknowledge your existence, it might be me thinking, boy that's a pretty truck, wonder what I can get on a trade in.
Drive responsible.
Chris
Any feedback on this price would help
Thank you
Are they worth the extra $450.00?
Thanks
Now for the Running Boards. Some people who buy 4Runners decide to take off the Running Boards because of the limited ground clearance. They go rock hopping and then bend the boards. Here are the negatives of Running Boards:
1.) Limited ground clearance.
2.) Some people feel they don't drain properly, you get your pant legs wet in the rain.
3.) Snow and mud get stuck on the boards.
4.) Some people think the truck is prettier and more aggressive looking without the Boards.
Having said all that, I have Running Boards. I got them after I bought the truck. My wife and my 11 year old son are about the same height, and really need Running Boards. And yes I think they look nice.
Bottom line is, you can always put some Running Boards on or take them off, if you should ever change your mind. Some people even change the Running Boards to a after market type, because they like the change. Cheaper than trading in your car.
1) Very cramped cabin, especially in terms of headroom.
2) Underpowered both compared to its competition and in terms of general city traffic.
3) Dated, "1990's Corolla" interior, especially if you don't get the Limited model.
All that for $40k Canadian? Doesn't make sense.
It is kind of nice to know that some vehicles that are built are not for the middle of the road. And this is difintely not a middle of the road vehicle.
I agree with everything "jafo2001" said about the vehicle. I also think it has one of the best engine, transmission, drive trains I have ever driven. It has a large available weight to carry and to tow. It is very quiet and well manured on smooth roads. It is of top quality and is built to last. Sitting up high is quite nice to drive in traffic and I absolutely love to drive the "undeveloped roads" were there is no traffic.
I guess you need to know what you want. I have seen people on this board say they just bought the 4Runner and want to get rid of it. At least "jafo200" understood this before he bought. Love it or hate it, it is a 4Runner.
http://carpoint.msn.com/vip/Overview/Toyota/4Runner/new.asp
Please click on this site and then click on "Consumer Ratings and Reviews" at the bottom of the page and you will see a lot of low scores and a lot of high scores. No middle ground.
regarding the TRD supercharger. I had one installed almost exactly a year ago and I have
never been sorry. Although it is still not what I would call a "tire smoker", the power has
been improved significantly with no penalty in gas consumption or cruising noise. It cost me
about CDN $4100.00 installed + tax which equates to about $2665.00 US. I had it installed
on a 1996 4-Runner Ltd 4x4 which had about 62,000 km (38,500 miles) and have put on nearly
20,000 km since then. On a trip to the Grand Canyon and Mesa Verde in September, I averaged about 25mpg Imp or 21mpg US on the trip. The only noticible noise is the whine
from the supercharger when you accelerate, but at normal highway cruising speeds you hear only normal wind noice. Other than the SC, a K&N filter, and Bilstein shocks, the vehicle is
completely stock (although I have tried a Borla exhaust system and K & N filtercharger system
at different times in the past). I found the Borla cat-back system too noisy (it "droned") at normal cruising speeds and did not notice any significant performance improvements with either the Borla or K & N filtercharger. I have considered headers but I do not see that a 9 or 10 horsepower increase would justify either the cost or the additional noise. The only ongoing cost factor is the premium gas that you have to buy (I try to use 94 octane).
In summary, I would say that there is a significant increase in power with the TRD SCer, but
don't expect to take out any Vettes or 5 liter Mustangs at the stop lights.
Originally posted by HorsesMouth:
I thought you might want to hear this straight from the Horse's Mouth.
As an insider, I'm not going to divulge too much information, especially with 2002 4Runners still sitting on dealer lots ready to be sold, and I'd hate to jeopardize company sales figures, by letting too much slip out and have people wait to buy a 4Runner, but...
1) Yes, the 4Runner will have both optional V6 and V8 engines. Interestingly, the V6 will have slightly more horsepower than the V8. (The V8 or course will have more torque).
2) Third row seat will not be available. After much debate back and forth, this option is sitting out. Why you ask? Because of the design, much desired completely folding flat third-row seats cannot be put into the vehicle. The Lexus GX470 will, however, have the third row folding seats similar to the Land Cruiser (come on, we had to differentiate them somehow!)
3) Price will be slightly increased over current 4Runner (nothing drastic, but this SUV is stepping up its brand positioning)
4) The optional JBL audio system is going to be a real class leader in this SUV segment. Also, expect a video entertainment system (with wireless headsets) from the GX470 to filter into the 4Runner
4) Finally, the spy pictures and new Toyota Prado pictures are a good idea on the look of the vehicle. Envision different headlights (similar to Sequoia), different taillights, and more body cladding on the sides (SR5)
Also does anyone know about the price range for the different models.
tires. Yokohama Geolandar A/T plus II have
decent survey results at Tirerack.com
I have the 265/70/16 Goodyear Wranglers on the
truck now and even though they lasted to 58k
would like to change.
Any input would be appreciated
thanks