Options
What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
This discussion has been closed.
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
And
When Ram offers a 1500 class PU with a diesel, Ford and GMC will be scrambling. I don't think Eco Boost will cut it.
That is for SURE..plus there is the longevity potential of the oil burner over the gas job...Eco Boost will always be the underdog..pleasing only those who hate diesels at any cost. i.e. biting off their nose to spite their face.
Still, 28+ grand TCO over 89k miles is still not too shabby, eh?
Your bros was probably wise with his strategy..so much heat is created when you turbo a gas engine..Heat has to constantly be dealt with and not ignored. Any safeguard system that fails during normal operating conditions, can quickly leave a trail of big $ repairs in its wake, and is a grey area...Even if the dealer warranties everything, it still is of little comfort knowing how many potential long-life miles you have been robbed of from..say..one over-heating..
I have no interest in an MDX. I would guess many soccer moms only get about 13.5 MPG. Sitting waiting for kids to get out of school. Not really popular around here. I find the debate boring comparing apples to oranges. I would rather debate the different hardwoods used to make fine acoustic guitars. That is about as relevant as mileage of a gas vehicle that has no diesel counterpart. If Honda had any decent engineers we may have had a diesel MDX or Pilot to compare.
And we have just had a twilight zone example of the truth of what you are saying !! .
I personally would not get a turbo gasser, if I cared about longer term reliability and durability. It is another hidden factor that they will advocate using a turbo gasser because it allows smaller displacement at the consequence of even further wear and tear. In other words one should have used a much bigger displacement.
Anyway, the troublesome Chrysler autos were those notorious Ultramatics? (if I have the name right) 4 sp autos. And Chrysler criminally continued to sell them as designed for years before making enough changes in them that finally got them so they would fail outta wty. Carrying either a full passenger load all/most the time or a single driver who pulled a 1200-1500 lb trailer often , had the greatest percentage of failures. Those too who only followed the oil change interval on those autos..if you doubled up twice sooner, the re and re even that helped those trannys a lot.
Ford has done the same thing. GM too, has their own deliberate negligences (not a word but seemed to fit) ..very few really clean hands in the auto moto world..
Ironically, the underpinnings of the Rabbit pickup live on in the various VW Caddy flavors, all of which are vans now I think. And diesel flavors have been available since the first generation.
Perhaps..but on the other hand, probably a (too) high a percentage of those 'new- give-the-diesel-a-try' customers who only go to the corner store type distances, (literally 5 min trips) be it to the store or worse..work, cuz its every day 5 days/10 x's a week of pure unintentional abuse on an engine that could never properly get warmed up enough (exasperated by the basic efficiency with which the oil burner goes about its job) in the winter..Hell, even gas jobs in those situations can't begin to expect the same longevity potential/$ invested over the life of the engine in those circumstances..And who plugs their car in every night even if it is only expected to go down to 20¼, raise your hand...I'm holding mine up, but I'm a distinct minority among the masses...plus I do that even with presently owning a gas job.
And even if you do plug the car in failthfully at home, it probably got a cold start to go the corner store cuz that was probably an impromptu trip. Same with being at work, the poor bugger is still gonna get a cold start for long 5 min jaunt home, cuz few places of work have plug-ins.
These types of conditions really aren't conducive to diesel longevity, and mfgrs would still get caught out on a few too many repairs I suspect if they did try a 200k wty.
Otherwise a good idea, Steve. who knows...maybe good enough that the sales success with all the other customers who drive 30 min or more one way all the time, would be enough to offset these wty costs for the minority?
"Mid-range grunt is terrific..."
They say it's not the quietest diesel, but should be great for towing.
might take a bit longer for that tech to filter down thru the (locally owned) semi's pulling shipping contr's in downtown New York though..
Speaking of which, I watched an interesting documentary about a lot of those guys starting to convert to NG for doing those local pick up/drop off deliveries. Win win I say..
Steve, have you noticed fewer asthmatic triggers with the newer diesel TDI's? Wasn't it your wife that suffers from that?
23 Civic Type-R / 22 MDX Type-S / 21 Tesla Y LR / 03 Montero Ltd
Pipe dreaming, here.
And yeah, I never plug my cars in and we do too many 5 minute trips in the winter in below 20° weather.
What's so funny is seeing this topic giving you so much.... gas ! :shades:
I am not sure why he says the shifting is persnickety. The other diesels (BMW X5 35D, MB ML350, VW T) are pretty second nature once the drill is imprinted or briefed.
I can see it being true if you have to find a specific (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,) position. I saw there is ANOTHER shifter. That could/can be a real trick with gloves on and a thick parka and in the cold. Or more inconveniently when you want to switch between both.
As a comparison, the VW T TDI 8 speed A/T in sequential: bump forward for UPshift, bump back for DOWNshift. Each bump is one gear. Want to do D/S?AND let the automatic be automatic? It is a instinctive LATERAL bump left/right to select the sequential /automatic gate.
Now another question is what % will be diesels ?
The diesel is only going to be offered in the top Limited and Overland. So $50K is probably competitive with an comparably equipped Touareg TDI.
You have to go to the 2nd level Touareg to get leather and NAV. My guess is it will be very competitively priced with the Touareg and less than the ML and X5 by about $10k. I just wish our dealers would get a Touareg TDI in to test drive. I could be happy with one I am sure.
Some arcane pieces of information might be the choice of interior colors and/or the panoramic sun roof.
Longer story short, I have grown to like the darker color interior with NO panoramic sun roof for longer distance travel, more soothing. (I have gone app 965 to 1100 miles in a day in both light and dark interiors) We do have the white Jetta TDI with light beige interior and a shade able sunroof but the bright lights can be a tad overbearing, except on dark to over cast days. I think if I had closer and more frequent access to PCH aka cruising la vida loca I would go in for the light interior and PANORAMIC sunroof.
As a practical matter, I think you would have to flog it a tad, but slightly more aggressive driving is good for TDI's, i.e., closer to 55-58 mpg. On the 2003 TDI ( 1.9 L) I have keep speeds @ 75 mpg with bursts to 85 and posted up to 59 mpg , literally in one case trying to stay under the "radars".
That's actually not bad for an enormous, quick vehicle that can run on regular octane.
I think he was referring to the Escape with 1.6L eco boost only getting 21 MPG. That would be disappointing in a small CUV.
Fusion 1.6 gets 16 city 37 Highway 25 overall. (CR numbers - real world not EPA). Now on the surface you could say that isn't so bad, good for Ford the ecoboost is working. But what if you went at this a different way and looked at an Accord V-6. No fancy turbo just more displacement. The 2013 V-6 Accord is rated at 16 city 39 highway and 26 overall (CR for all numbers for consistency).
So what benefit does the 1.6 liter ecoboost provide if it can't match the fuel eocnomy of a a 3.5 liter v-6. Is it fast? Well they (CR) get it to 60 in 8.9 seconds, so not too bad, that will feel peppy and when in the sweet spot it may even feel kinda quick. But the V-6 Accord does the same task in 6.3 seconds (with an old school automatic not a fancy dsg). So basically the least efficient Accord beats the most efficient Fusion in economy
Now lets compare the fastest Fusion 240 hp 2.0 turbo - quick at 7.4 to 60. That will feel quite peppy, but it drinks a lot of gas (14 city 33 highway - CR). Lets look at the slowest Accord (I4 CVT). it is just a tad slower at 7.7 to 60 and the manual is faster than the Fusion (don't have CR numbers for the current Accord MT but in the past the MT has been significantly faster and more efficient than the AT). So the slowest Accord is about as fast (little faster or a little slower depending on transmission) as the fastest Fusion.
I just don't see where ecoboost is helping at all. The numbers are about the same for all the ecoboost I4's. The V-6 is not as bad, it actually gets very slightly better mpg and acceleration in the F150, but how will it hold up in that application?
Ford would be much better served with turbo diesel engines. The turbo gas engines are not terribly impressive in the larger models (compared to a V-8) and much worse for the I4 versions.
I just used Honda as an example - Nissan, Toyota and probably Mazda are fairly similar.
http://www.freep.com/article/20121218/BUSINESS01/121218037/Ford-small-diesel-eng- ine-Transit
I think the 1.6l is undersized, so it has to stay in the boost just to move around all that weight.
Not to rain on YOUR parade, but to complete why a normally aspirated vehicle like your 4 cylinder to 6 cylinder Honda Accord and 6 speed M/T should be more durable and reliable is that a turbo gasser has to deal with more heat disposal albeit not as well as turbo diesel does. Driven well a 6 speed MT is more durable and reliable and more fuel efficient. So the unscheduled cost variables should be cheaper . Obviously higher mpg is better than lower mpg.
CR tested teh F150 V8 vs. V6 EB and mileage was identical. At least it didn't go down.
Don't you see the problem there? A naturally aspirated V8 will not have the issues of the V6 EB. It has been a very rocky start for the folks that bought the F150 EB. Shuddering and going into limp mode are the common ailments.
And what will it cost to repair the EB over the plain vanilla V8? And to top it off the EB F150 costs $3000 more than the top of the line V8 model. No chance of breaking even on that one if it does not get a lot better mileage.
What some companies will do to avoid doing the smart thing and using diesel. The Germans are beating the socks off the domestics and only Fiat Chrysler sees that.
The take rate is also higher than expected. If it were all bad that wouldn't be the case.
Ford Motor says that it has pinpointed the cause of overheating in the 2013 Fusion sedans and Escape crossovers with a 1.6-liter EcoBoost engine, ending a mystery that began with a big recall last week.
It says the issue can be fixed with a simple software update.
Starting next week, owners of the 89,153 vehicles recalled will be urged to go to a Ford dealer to have the car's electronic controls "flashed" with new software aimed at ensuring the cooling system won't allow the turbocharged engine to dangerously overheat.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2012/12/10/ford-recall-escape-fusion-ec- oboost/1759063/
If it was so simple, Ford, then why allow such a significant glitch to be released to the customer without proper pre-release test-time invested? Oh...that's right...once again, we're the guinea pigs and any negative ramifications (down the road engine longevity and efficiency) as a result of your too-anxious to recoup R&D $'s, are on our dime...errr...make that dollar.....actually, make that huge frig dollars.. pffftttt
Tell ya what Ford, give me my money back, and let's start over. I'll buy a brand new one that has the proper software flash...there..how does it feel to actually own the costs that you so easily and without conscience are prepared to just dump on the innocent and unknowing consumer?
This article is a thankful reminder (altho admittedly not really needed) why I started my boycott of Ford in 1989, (one year after I bought my 88 F150....after only a few years earlier having bought my 85000$ big truck) when the paint just flaked off and they made excuse after excuse to not do the right thing and reimburse me when I had to pay to repaint it in order to sell it. I told them I would NEVER forget this, and it was a promise I have kept.
And just so I am not accused of necessarily singling out Ford, the other two certainly have created a good number of their own boycotters I'm sure. I've just never been crapped on by them to the extent that Ford did.
That sounds reasonable. An engine that has overheated will suffer internal damage to cylinder walls etc. It may not show up for 50k or 100k miles. It will more than likely show up after the warranty is gone. So this recall will not fix the damage that may already be done.
a good number of their own boycotters I'm sure.
Mine was Toyota and Honda. I held a grudge against Toyota for the engine problems in my 1964 Toyota Land Cruiser, until I bought the Sequoia in 2007. I swore off Honda with a myriad of problems with my 1978 Accord. Then renting a 2010 Accord reconfirmed my feelings they are not great cars. I will not likely buy another GM vehicle after my experience with the 2005 GMC Hybrid PU. I owned 4 GM trucks prior to that one and was pleased. I think GM went in the toilet with the 1998 UAW Strike. Not on my likely buy list. I am ready to give Jeep a go with the GC diesel.
..."I'm not sure if all of that info is accurate. The EB V6 did well in tests, torque and towing, etc.
The take rate is also higher than expected. If it were all bad that wouldn't be the case."...
???? :lemon:
To quote a redundancy expert, Yogi Berra, "Its day sha foo all ober again"
Others have had better luck, CR said BMW's 2.0T met their expectations for instance.
Also - as if diesels never had any issues. Look at the last effort from Jeep.
..."Also - as if diesels never had any issues. Look at the last effort from Jeep."...
I also had severe issues with the (GASSERS) 1978 Honda Accord (inherited, not bought) and 1985 Toyota Camry even as it was WELL rated by CR.
I am sure you remember vilifying me for Honda's and Toyota's negligence.
The 2003 Jetta TDI was one of the few that did not sit under the (potential and actual) falling sword of Damocles.
My family had one of those - two-tone brown. What a fantastic little car! We had nary a problem with it, even while our friends' families suffered nightmare after nightmare with their domestics, or the incredibly popular Accord of the time that would repeatedly melt its wiring for the flip-up headlight actuators. My dad fixed several of those (some pre-emptively) by re-wiring them with a heavier gauge wire and more appropriate fuse box.
Old co-worker who had an 04 (.5) Jetta TDI did have some problems, but mainly electrical - nothing with the powertrain.
The issue with the 1.6 EcoBoost is with the cooling system. So what? The result is also bad.
But sticking with Fords, you don't remember the Power Stroke flame thrower?
http://youtu.be/-dKLKm5i2ic
Or the HD engine fires (even on newer models)?
http://youtu.be/iuA442fKjcA
This is not a gas or a diesel issue, it's a Ford issue.
One of the cable techs here still uses an '85 Camry as his DD.