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I don't expect it to be top of the list for depreciation, but I do expect it to be average and in line with the other full sized family sedans and not below average.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
I admire your faith that "this time it's different" except that, to me, it is no different, and never will be different, than any other Big 3 car for the last 40 years, Corvette as the one exception...
This car will drop like a rock, and MKS, being even more overpriced, will have a higher percentage drop than the Taurus...that is my solid prediction...
Again, akirby, I really do hope your opinion prevails on this, but 40 years of virtually 100% "Big 3 rock dropping depreciation" history will lean against you pretty hard...you see this as different, I see it as more of the same, and what will continue for the next 40 years...
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I agree that things really have changed and D3 cars are better than ever before. I hope, for the sake of the U.S. economy, that light vehicle manufacturing succeeds here.
The consequences of failure are scary to think about and I have a feeling at least Ford and Chrysler/Fiat will be with for a long time to come.
I still hope you are right, but I am betting my 25 cents that you will miss this boat by a country mile...
I am disappointed that the tauted features of the upscale models seem like doo-dads to me. BLIS, sync, massaging seats, improved cruise control, etc. I could live without these gladly. Motorized driver and passenger seats--why? Is it a big deal to reach down and lift a lever?
Of note the 2000 Taurus weighed 3333#.
I, for one, seek value in a car which means a good price and good fuel economy and good reliability. Weight is the enemy of fuel economy. The taurus has been reliable and a good value but it seems to have gorged itself during the off season and over time. That is a 21% weight gain over the past decade 3333 to 4015. Pretty soon this car will get diabetes and hypertension.
Where is all the weight?
The price of a 3 year old Taurus is DIRECTLY affected by the price of a new one. Would you buy a 3 year old vehicle for $20K if brand new ones were selling for $25K? Of course not, so the used prices go down accordingly.
I also think you underestimate the general public's opinion of Ford - it has changed considerably after the GM/Chrysler bailouts and Fusion Hybrid introduction.
What has impressed me most about Ford's business plan is that they bit the bullet when they needed to - closed plants and bought out UAW workers to cut costs and reduce excess capacity. And when sales took a nose dive they cut production even more - resisting the temptation to simply throw cash on the hood to sell more cars which would have hurt resale values even more.
Like I said - this all hinges on whether the public likes the Taurus enough to buy it without huge discounts. And I think they will - to the tune of at least 60k/year which isn't bad in a 12M unit market. That's equivalent to almost 100K 2 years ago when the market was 17M. And given the shared platform and drivetrains that should yield a tidy profit.
The future of Ford lies in next year's Fiesta and the next generation Focus and Explorer. 2010/11 may bring an end to GM without another bail-out and if it does, all bets are off because Ford will clean up.
IF GM survives the next 24 months (50/50 at best) then there will be a real battle because we still have too many automakers and the cars from India and China will be here in a few short years.
Yes there are trade-offs. Yes if you want the limited edition super high output model there is a price premium. Can we try it first and see if we like it before we doom it to a fate worse than Hyundai Excels?
...while the 4 cylinder Honda Accord "blossomed" from 2378 lbs to 3367 lbs, or about 1000 lbs difference. I hope it has some Lipitor handy...
So they added side impact air bags, seat mounted air bags, massaging multi-contour seats, adaptive cruise control, 19" wheels (that I think are worthless but w/e), power this that and the next thing (Taurus in the 90s could still have crank windows, oh the horror) and a lot more interior and trunk space.
I agree though that there are gains to be made here as composite technologies mature. The Lotus Elise is a great example.
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...while the 4 cylinder Honda Accord "blossomed" from 2378 lbs to 3367 lbs, or about 1000 lbs difference. I hope it has some Lipitor handy...
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The Accord hasn't weighed 2378 pounds since the mid-1980s.
2000 Honda LX I4 auto: 3075 lbs.
2010 Honda LX I4 auto: 3289 lbs. A gain of 6.96%
2000 Ford Taurus SE auto: 3368 lbs.
2010 Ford Taurus SE auto: 4015 lbs. A gain of 19.21%
From all I've heard and read, the new Taurus is one of the quietest cars on the road and I'm certain the safety ratings will be stellar.
The silhouette of the 2010 Taurus also inspires safety with the high beltline. The car does have a lot going for it and Ford has not been advertising in the midwest where many traditional buyers are located. There's still a ton of Crown Vics and Grand Marquis' around here and some of these drivers will want another full-size Ford in the next year or two.
I plan to dump my Lucerne next year. The Taurus has the new LaCrosse beat and that is going to be Buick's top model for 2011.
I also think you underestimate the general public's opinion of Ford - it has changed considerably after the GM/Chrysler bailouts and Fusion Hybrid introduction."
I quoted that part of your post because you are right on that...I am probably guilty of underestimating the public opinion of Ford (or you may be giving them much more credit than the general public really does, as Ford may not be on the public's radar screen at all)...
You also mentioned pricing...I think that unless one gets the lower end Taurus, the prices "out the door" will still scare many people away, esp if they break into the mid-30K's...I think Ford is trying, to their credit, to try and go upwardly mobile, but it remains to be seen if the public is ready to "allow" them to do so by purchasing their products...remember, folks may love the Taurus, but if the price scares them away, the "love" of the car means nothing...
As I have stated, I hope your view prevails, but I am betting my 25 cents that you won't, simply because I think you are wildly optimistic...or, as Seinfeld would say, "Not that there's anything wrong with that"...
And, while some cars in the past DID hold some value, compared to the entire market at large, those vehicles were not enough to really matter...I would venture, without ANY scientific info at all, that over 80% of Big 3 vehicles lose value like a rock falling in the air...for the few that don't, well, I hardly see that as convincing evidence, more like a fluke...
That is why one side of a coin has heads, and the other has tails...we see the same coin, but what we actually see is quite different...
Overall Ford was down 6% (14% retail). Toyota down 16%, Honda down 23%. Chrysler down 40%. GM down 45%.
I don't know what more proof you could ask for that Ford's public perception is greatly improved and mostly positive now.
" don't know what more proof you could ask for that Ford's public perception is greatly improved and mostly positive now."...remember, you are comparing Ford with 2 bankrupt companies, GM & C, where virtually EVERYONE is reluctant to buy from a company that is almost guaranteed not to be here in 6-12 months...on that basis, sure, folks see Ford in a different light...but will that transform into profitable sales is the bigger question...
Good luck to your view...as much as I dispute you, I want Ford to survive, win and prosper...I am just a little less optimistic as you are, that's all...
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As long as oil stays under $75/barrel, Ford should be fine. The F-series flat out spanked the Chevy Silverado and Dodge Ram in September. That should continue and reasonably priced oil ($65 to $70/barrel) will allow Ford to make some money next year.
None other than Goldman Sachs is predicting $90/barrel next summer and $95 next fall! We're swimming in oil and the economy cannot support those prices. One of the biggest risks to a 2010 recovery is expensive oil. There's still plenty of other problems but now at least we know what they are.
The U.S. economy cannot afford $3.50/gallon fuel next year. It will kill any chances of a recovery. The oil futures market is one of the biggest scams out there and we need to be aware of it.
Having owned Toyota's/Nissan's/Honda's/ Mazda's for many years, think that's where I'll keep my car $ in the near future. One last thing, working for the government, we hire your "average person" and I went out to the parking lot the other day to do a random survey on makes of cars. From what I observed, 85% were foreign cars & the rest was split between the big 3. One thing we all must have is a dependable car, no if's, and's or but's. So from my observations, the big 3 have a "long way" to go with the American public. Folks might want to "buy American" but when they spend their $ on transportation, the foreign brands rule and will in the forseeable future no matter what. Most folks prefer the reliability & driveability of the foreign brands...period!
So slam me all you want to but it is what it is. So all you American car makers, make your cars like the foreign brands do with the same reliability, price structure & fun to drive quotient and watch what happens. And for G-d's sake, make cars "people want to buy"...make cars the American public really wants...and "needs", and then you'll dominate like y'all did 30 to 40 years ago!
The Sandman :sick: :shades:
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
Really? I thought it was when they didn't take any government bailout money to restructure themselves, for me that was a moderately sized tip off, or that they didn't go bankrupt.
Having owned Toyota's/Nissan's/Honda's/ Mazda's for many years, think that's where I'll keep my car $ in the near future.
So if you've made that decision already, how much is it worth for any other company to try to "win" you as a customer?
From what I observed, 85% were foreign cars & the rest was split between the big 3. One thing we all must have is a dependable car, no if's, and's or but's. So from my observations, the big 3 have a "long way" to go with the American public.
I know from your other postings in other forums that you know more about statistics than that. Ford has a market share in the mid-teens (higher in some segments, lower in others), and GM is about the same. Together they are about 30% of vehicles sold.
Folks might want to "buy American" but when they spend their $ on transportation, the foreign brands rule and will in the foreseeable future no matter what.
Everyone gets an opinion and a vote, and yours is no more or less valid than mine, but what does that have to do with the 2010 Ford Taurus?
So slam me all you want to but it is what it is. So all you American car makers, make your cars like the foreign brands do with the same reliability, price structure & fun to drive quotient and watch what happens
No slam, just trying to understand the motivation to put a rant about the auto industry in general in a a forum about a a car that has been very well received by every major media outlet, magazine, blog, and podcast from a company that took no government bailout, stayed solvent on its own, and has quality on par with its Japanese rivals based on multiple independent sources (CR, JDP, etc).
Did you actually drive the 2010 Taurus? :sick:
like another person said, Ford's sale outperform many import brands, what more do you need to know? also, many rental companies now-a-day are buying imports, so it's not like the good ol' days when domestic auto sales were counting on the purchase from rental car companies.
GM's guarantee program is a scammer, anyone with a decent brain could have told you that. Ford is already, in my opinion, doing what it can to earn back the trust of the American public, while it can't be succeeded overnight, the sales record is a good solid proof that it's slowly achieving its goal.
You and your "average person" mentality is an upgraded. Ford is making cars that people want. Actually, they HAVE BEEN making cars that people want, but it'd take a keener eye to see it. Well, since you're at that lower level, I will give you an example... when there was a huge demand of trucks, Ford made the F150 and it was the best selling trucks. When there was a huge demand for SUV, Ford made that best selling Explorer. Whether you choose to believe this or not, Ford has been making cars that people want. As far as liability is concern, it's fair to say that the Big 3 were below par for many years. And as far as pricing is concern, we can all blame it on the UAW.
One last thing... this is year 2009... it's not so much what the American public wants anymore in regard to automobiles... it's what the WORLD wants.
I made up my mind about getting a black or white limited next year, but now I have decided to wait to see the 2011 Genesis with the mild upgrade first.
The Genni is RWD where as the Taurus is FWD or AWD. I don't know if there is an AWD being introduced in '11 for the Genesis. I also don't know if that matters to your situation. I have also heard complaints about the suspension on the Genesis, but I have a fair amount of seat time driving one (not mine) and I didn't notice anything bad about it myself. The car overall has a very different feel then the Taurus, but that isn't saying its good or bad, its just different. I am also surprised at how different the Taurus SEL feels compared to the SHO. They feel like two completely different cars, which IMHO, they should.
What is true is that Ford is now making cars people want. Not so much true for Mercury and Lincoln, however. Look at Sept sales for L-M...double digits lower than the awful sales last September. Many people are predicting Chrysler's demise and GM's demise, and it is possible they may go. But let's not forget that Ford is and has been for several years now leveraged to the hilt, and is still not making money. GM and Chrysler further damaged their images through bankruptcy, but they did dump a lot of debt in the process. Ford hopes to hold out until there is some black ink, and I hope they do as well. And as for blaming the situation on the UAW? What about the do-nothing, no-nothing, high pay-collecting board? What about upper management? There is enough blame to go around.
I also drove a Genesis and the ride did not bother me at all. Maybe I was just driving it like it's a sedan and not a sport car, if you know what I mean. The redesign has a new trunk lid, which I hope would fix the water leaking problem that the Genesis has.
RWD and FWD and AWD, all don't matter to me because as long as they have wheels and they drive, I'm ok with it.
and yes, blame UAW.
high pay collecting board members? they didn't get there by accident.
I meant the LTD vs the SHO, sorry, I skipped a model in my nomenclature. I think they are expecting the entry level model to do a lot of fleet service where a full size vehicle is needed/preferred.
I also drove a Genesis and the ride did not bother me at all. Maybe I was just driving it like it's a sedan and not a sport car, if you know what I mean.
The sense I got is that the issue is that the suspension is a little too stiff and it made it feel jittery over certain types of roads. I tend to like a heavy dose of "sport" in my sedan so it didn't bother me at all (I didn't notice it, actually, and Michigan has some pretty poor roads).
RWD and FWD and AWD, all don't matter to me because as long as they have wheels and they drive, I'm ok with it.
Yeah I guess no matter what you need power going from the engine to some wheel.
I think both of these vehicles are very impressive. Its hard to believe that the company that gave us the Hyundai Excel can produce something like the Genesis, and its exciting to see that a North American company can still develop a design that is stylish with the quality it needs to compete in this environment.
I don't think its fair to compare yet because there aren't those many 10 Taurus' at dealers yet. Longer term I think Taurus will easily outsell Maxima, but the large car market really hasn't been that hot the past few years. Maxima is more of a niche car compared to Altima. Taurus will likely fall in between.
I knew this would happen, and told everyone, but the faithful blue oval boys just wouldn't accept it.
I wonder if they'll be closer to 20k next spring?
This is not a Taurus exclusive thing: Now that Cash for Clunkers idiocy is over, I'm starting to see bigger incentives on all new cars.
AWD SELs have an invoice of $27,500 and even if you total up all the incentives you only run up to $2,500 dollars in rebates. Most people won't qualify for the $500 early order one or the $500 military bonus or the $500 college grad rebate.
Holdback on Fords is 3% of MSRP so 870 bucks or so. That comes out to a net, net, net price of about $24,130. I can see going behind a little bit on an ad car but not almost $1,400 dollars behind and not on a mid trim level newly redesigned car like the Taurus SEL.
You go that far behind on a left over 2009 that is a stripper car and not newly redesigned. Actually you go more then that much behind on a 2009 but $1,400 behind sounds about right for a 2010 super base and not newly redesigned model.
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If those were all 2010 models, then that was a good performance. September was a weak month.