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Will Green Cars Be Exciting To Drive And Enjoyable To Own?

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  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I actually don't mind the subsidy, as long as it actually goes to promoting new technology that does us some real benefit. As long as there's no fraud, waste, etc...but whenever the government gets involved, I don't think you can rule out that possibility.

    But, I don't like the idea of hybrids, electric cars, or whatever getting to use the HOV lanes. HOV lanes were originally designed to encourage people to carpool and reduce congestion. A car with only the driver in it, no matter how economical, does nothing to reduce congestion.

    Actually, something I just thought of...nowadays, most HOV lanes are HOV-2, but I remember years ago, when they first came to be, many of them were actually HOV-4, such as on I-66 in Virginia. So in that case, if you only had a 2-person car like a Corvette or Miata, I guess you'd simply be banned, automatically, from those lanes? I know they'll usually let motorcycles in HOV lanes since they can only hold one person (or two, if you've got someone in the *****-seat. But, by that same reasoning, if you have a Corvette filled to capacity, shouldn't it be allowed in an HOV-3 or -4 lane?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I don't think San Diego has any HOV lanes as such. They have fastrack which you pay on a scale depending on how heavy the traffic is. Currently in CA the only vehicles that get single driver HOV stickers are CNG only vehicles. The hybrid HOV stickers are no longer any good.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Don't give Gore the credit, Bush signed the law that created the $7500 incentive.

    Gore would have probably asked for more....
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Actually the addition of the Tax credit for the Plugin hybrids and EV was part of the Stimulus package. Bush was a big disappointment his last two years. This one was not his.

    Section 30D originally was enacted in the Energy Improvement and Extension Act of 2008. The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 amended section 30D effective for vehicles acquired after December 31, 2009. The vehicle must be acquired for use or lease and not for resale. Additionally, the original use of the vehicle must commence with the taxpayer and the vehicle must be used predominantly in the United States. For purposes of the 30D credit, a vehicle is not considered acquired prior to the time when title to the vehicle passes to the taxpayer under state law.

    http://www.irs.gov/businesses/article/0,,id=214841,00.html
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    edited February 2012
    Gagrice's message #718 closely reflects my rebuttal to your response to my message. That said, neither you nor gagrice would probably agree with what I would favor to reduce fuel consumption and promote alternative technologies. I would favor phasing out CAFE, and replacing it with a higher national gasoline tax. This tax would be phased in with increases of, say, ~$0.15/year for about 10-15 years, and could be offset with reductions in other taxes, so that it would be revenue neutral.

    I would also reduce the tax on diesel so that diesel fuel is at parity with regular gasoline, or even slightly below regular.

    I think these measures would result in a more efficient allocation of resources, in terms of current hydrocarbon consumption, consumer choice and future technologies than the current system.

    I think we generally favor the same goals, but differ in how to best achieve them.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think the gas tax increase has merit. Rather than being revenue neutral, keep the additional gas tax in an infrastructure only account. After the Federal roads and bridges are in good repair, allocate the revenue to the states to do the same on a matching funds basis.

    I am yet to be convinced many of the current crop of hybrids with their big electric motors and batteries are as environmentally sound as we are being led to believe. With gas and diesel engines challenging the hybrids on mileage I would bet the pollution over the life is higher with two power sources. I think a case can be made for an EV that is charged with solar panels. Though it is hardly a good American solution. I don't see US competing in that arena.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    How about a green bike. Looks like VW may have another winner.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXhhWXw9V7A

    Lexus, BMW, Mercedes and Ferarri all have them as well. Just not quite as compact. The VW E-Bike fits in the spare tire well and is charged by the car while driving.

    http://green.autoblog.com/2010/04/28/volkswagen-bik-e-replaces-spare-tire-with-e- lectric-mobility-devi/
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That's neat, I love how small it is.

    12 miles and no pedals, though. Hmm. I guess that's OK, it's just an extension of the car as transportation.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited February 2012
    We've gone full circle it seems.

    image

    Wooden draisine (around 1820), the first two-wheeler. This one is similar to the VW, but has pedals.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The price is right on the Contortionist. It just does not have a motor for those that do not want to walk into the office dripping with sweat. I looked for something along the lines of the VW E-bike when I had the motor home. Nothing really seemed compact enough.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Just reading about China playing hardball on Rare Earths needed to make most everything we buy today. We are trying to get the WTO to see our side of the issue. When the reality is our own stupidity shut down REE mining and processing more than a decade ago. Time to get our hands dirty if we do not want to lose out.

    Officials in Beijing said Tuesday that China will vigorously defend its right to control the export of such materials. The official state-run news agency, Xinhua, warned that any U.S. move to lodge a trade complaint over the issue would “backfire.”

    In choosing to make a stand, U.S. officials are highlighting an industry over which China has a near-monopoly. The country now produces more than 95 percent of the world’s rare-earth minerals, which are used in almost all advanced industrial products, from helicopter blades to solar panels to the batteries in electric cars to flat-screen televisions.

    And China has shown in recent years that it is not afraid to use its dominance in the crucial market as a cudgel. In 2010, during a territorial dispute with Japan, the Chinese government halted the shipment of anything containing so-called “rare-earths” to Japan, causing a temporary panic among electronics manufacturers.

    China has only about 30 percent of the world’s known rare-earths deposits. But other countries, including the United States, Canada and Australia, stopped mining more than a decade ago, because the price of the Chinese-produced rare earths was cheaper.


    http://usamovement.wordpress.com/2012/03/14/u-s-challenges-chinas-curbs-on-miner- al-exports-china-vows-to-push-back-mfg/
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    From today's Detroit Free Press...

    "At an equivalent of 118 m.p.g., the electric Honda Fit is the most fuel-efficient vehicle in the U.S. But getting that mileage isn't cheap.

    Honda announced the eye-popping figure Wednesday, making the small, four-door hatchback more efficient than electric rivals like the Ford Focus, Nissan Leaf and Mitsubishi i-MiEV. It goes on the market this summer in Oregon and California.

    The electric Fit has an estimated price tag nearly twice as high as the gasoline-powered version. It would take 11 years before a driver makes up the difference and begins saving on fuel.

    With gas prices falling, high sticker prices for electric vehicles are becoming more of a barrier for American buyers, even though the vehicles are far more efficient than their gas-powered counterparts.

    Through May, carmakers sold just over 10,000 electric vehicles, less than 0.2% of U.S. car and truck sales.

    That's because the numbers don't add up for the average consumer.

    • The electric Fit needs 28.6 kilowatt hours of electricity to go 100 miles. At a national average price of 11.6 cents per kilowatt hour, that costs $3.30.

    A gas-powered Fit, which gets 31 m.p.g., needs to burn 3.2 gallons to travel 100 miles. At the national average price of $3.57 per gallon of gasoline, that's $11.52.

    • People drive an average of almost 13,500 miles a year, so a typical driver would spend $445 on electricity for an electric Fit over a year, and $1,552 on gasoline for a regular Fit.

    • The price of an electric Fit is $29,125 after a $7,500 federal tax credit. That's $12,210 more than the gas-powered Fit -- a savings of $1,107 per year to make up the difference between the electric and the gas-powered version.

    'Customers don't want to spend the extra money up front and wait for years for payback,' said Geoff Pohanka, who runs 13 dealerships in Virginia and Maryland.

    'People are smart. They're looking for the deal,' he said. 'Is somebody going to fork out $15,000 more for something that gets them less range than their car now? It's not happening.'

    At first, Honda will be leasing Fit EVs only in Oregon and California, for $389 per month. The subcompact seats up to five people and can be recharged in three hours with a 240-volt charging station. A fully charged Fit EV can go 82 miles, meaning a daily commute could cost nothing for gasoline.

    Jesse Toprak, vice president of market intelligence for the car buying site TrueCar.com, said he tested an electric Chevrolet Volt, driving it less than 35 miles a day from his Los Angeles-area home to work and back. The cost of leasing it -- $369 a month -- is comparable to the $300 he would spend on gas.

    'In a lot of these cases, I'm surprised that people are not lining up to get these things,' he said.

    The comparison between gas and electric cars also can vary with geography, largely because energy prices vary wildly across the country. In Oregon, where gasoline is 18% more expensive than the national average and electricity is 16% lower, an electric Fit will save $121 per month in fuel. In Connecticut, which has the highest power prices in the country, the monthly savings are just $83."

    EVs would compare even less favorably without taxpayer subsidies.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Now assume a Mideast crisis, closure of the Suez Canal, a big fire in Port Arthur, Steven Chu on the rampage.

    At $8 a gallon gas, the numbers may pencil out pretty good.

    Back to reality (?), the only way to really get some traction from anyone other than an early adopter may be to continue the monetary incentives, HOV privileges, taxing car owners by the mile, solar subsidies, and some inner city ICE restrictions in places like Manhattan.

    That said, I'm really liking my electric lawn mower, cut a branch of my pear tree the other day with an electric chain saw, and I'm selling the gas leaf vacuum soon.

    And a Tesla Roadster may be exciting to drive, but it's out of my price range.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited June 2012
    The price of an electric Fit is $29,125 after a $7,500 federal tax credit

    They don't mention state incentives, though. Here in MD you get $2000 more. That's still 9 long years to break even, though. Actually we'd have to plug in the gas and electricity prices to get the exact numbers.

    WV offers a whopping $7500 (35% of purchase cost up to that amount, so the Fit maxes out). Wow. You break even much sooner.

    This site lists by state:

    http://www.pluginamerica.org/incentives
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Any mileage on an EV is optimum at best. The Leaf owner I talked to said his wife's 65 mile roundtrip is marginal. And she has come back more than once to the parking garage to find her car unplugged and not charged up. It seems people will unplug your EV and plug in theirs. The CC charges stop as soon as it is unplugged. Still that is shaky to expect a full charge after work and have a low battery.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    edited June 2012
    Sure, you can create a scenario where a EV will be cost effective, but the odds of such a worst case scenario are probably rather small...fortunately.

    A used Tesla roadster may soon be very affordable.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Affordable to buy anyway.

    Running costs may be another story. :)
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    But I thought EVs are economical to run.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited June 2012
    I'm thinking service and parts. Wonder what the electrician would charge for the power box in the garage? Hopefully the battery fire issue from a couple of years ago is over.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Not cheap but many states offer tax incentives for those, too. $400 rings a bell.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited June 2012
    Maybe; seems like I paid $350 just for a hot tub hookup back in my Boise days, and I was able to reuse the outdoor 220 rated plug from the other house.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Hot tub .... maybe I'll get one of those since the kids shot down my car trade-in plans. :D
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    We miss ours.

    Not exactly a green contrivance however. Don't even have a sauna and we're in the middle of Finnish sauna country.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yeah, around here the energy credits offered are not valid if you use them for a hot tub.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    We did not use our hot tub enough to justify the $35 per month to heat it. I like them and my wife does not. Not real green unless you forget the chlorine.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I don't think I would go 125 MPH in it.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1aAmWim838
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That's pretty neat. I wonder how much energy the two gyros use up, though?
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    edited August 2012
    from the Philadelphia newspaper:
    Electric Cars on the Ascent?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    $3500 state credit, wow, that's $11k total.

    Still, EV market share will jump from 0.001% to 0.003%, that's a 300% increase, whoopee! ;)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    CA has a $5000 incentive on EVs like the Nissan Leaf. If you have a solar system on your home and a commute within range, it is a no brainer. Nice of US to send $12,500 to Japan for making EVs.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Production is supposed to move to the USA later this year.

    Let's see if it does ... I don't think it's meeting volume projections.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If it is like the Volt we get 40% of the Content. Who knows who gets the rest? We know Korea is providing the battery cells. Now that China owns A123 the US importer, I would look for the batteries to come from China. Likely the entire Volt production will be in China within 3 years. US playing a significant role in EV manufacture is very unlikely.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Cost is a big obstacle for EVs and guess where manufacturers go to reduce cost? Scary.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Until our leaders get their heads out of you know where. We will send more and more of our money to other countries. $billions of the Green agenda money ended up in other countries. I am not holding my breath on getting any real jobs via green energy or vehicles.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They've even been careful about Lithium batteries. Our Prius V loses 3rd row seating because it's NiMH battery pack is bigger.

    Leaf owners are already complaining about battery degradation. With a 10 year emissions warranty, Nissan could lose their shirt.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...on a Leaf?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    According to Wikipedia, the EPA gives the Leaf a range estimate of about 73 miles. Needless to say, I won't be buying one to drive up and meet you guys for Fall Carlisle.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Sheesh! I'd be lucky to get to and from work each day for a week w/o recharging and I live only about ten minutes from my job.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    edited September 2012
    I have 'Who Killed the Electric Car' on DVD now and am just starting to watch. Always wanted to. I seriously doubt they're gonna cover my favorite Mitsubishi and their i-MiEV in it, though. I see that Danny Devito loved his EV1. Immensely.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You still lovin' your Mitsu? Living up near the Idaho/NV border?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    LEED certified buildings now have to offer charging stations. There are 2 in the garage downstairs. I've only ever seen one being used at a time.

    Better yet, they charge below-cost. An hour of charger is $0.20 for energy what would cost about double at home.

    So half-priced charges that effectively double your range.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Dumb questions, but I'm going to ask them anyway:

    How long does it take to fully charge a Leaf?

    How much energy does it consume?

    How does the cost for electricity to charge the Leaf compare to the cost of gasoline for the same range?

    If one buys a Leaf, does Nissan install a charger in or near your home?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited September 2012
    I'm not really considering an EV, but let's look...

    Found a source:

    http://green.autoblog.com/2010/05/27/details-on-nissan-leaf-battery-pack-includi- - ng-how-recharging-sp/

    Looks like 8 hours for a level 2.

    That means you could "fill up the tank" while at work, and here that costs exactly $1.60.

    Here's the funny part - since the charge is below cost, my round trip is 13 miles each way, 26 round trip. So I'd use only about 1/4 of the battery.

    That means, for me, it would really only have to charge for 2 hours to top it off, assuming I do no charging at all at home. That would cost me $.40 for those 2 hours. That's $2 per week.

    No 220v charger to purchase, either. I could use 110v in a pinch.

    Compare to my Miata. I get 26mpg so that's a nice, round, single gallon per day to drive it. At about $4 a gallon, I'm spending about $20 per week.

    So energy/fuel cost would be substantially less, 1/10th of what I actually spend.

    Sounds huge, but not really. That's about $75 per month. What's the lease on a Leaf again? $349, something like that?

    There's no way it's just $75 more than a Miata would lease for. I'm sure you could lease a Miata for closer to $200-250.

    So a Miata still has a lower TCO.

    Even with subsidies for the purchase and for the electricity.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    How long does it take to fully charge a Leaf?

    Using a 120V charger (standard outlet) - one hour per 5 miles of range per wiki for a quick hit. From empty it's probably about 16 hours.

    Using a 240v charger (dryer type outlet) - 7 hours from empty to full per Nissan

    How much energy does it consume?

    Depends on how fast you drive it. Range for the best hypermilers is probably 70 miles.

    How does the cost for electricity to charge the Leaf compare to the cost of gasoline for the same range?

    According to wiki and an CR test they quote, the leaf gets 3.16 miles per kilowatt hour. I pay 8.6 cents per kilowatt hour so it would cost me 2.72 cents per mile. To go 25 miles it would cost me 68 cents compared to $4.19 for the gallon of premium fuel I use now.

    If one buys a Leaf, does Nissan install a charger in or near your home?

    No. You need to have the 240V charger installed. Figure about $2000 for the charger and installation.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I pay 8.6 cents per kilowatt hour so it would cost me 2.72 cents per mile.

    I get to tier 4 every month, that is 34 cents per KWH. That would be 10.76 cents per mile. A TDI getting 50 MPG would equal 8 cents per gallon. And be at least $10k cheaper. Without home solar no way to justify a plugin or EV.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    I get to tier 4 every month, that is 34 cents per KWH. That would be 10.76 cents per mile. A TDI getting 50 MPG would equal 8 cents per gallon. And be at least $10k cheaper. Without home solar no way to justify a plugin or EV.

    I presume you are SDG&E. Their summer rates are 27 cents per KWH per SDG&E Summer Rates.

    That Tier 4 rate is charged only the energy you actually use over 200% of your baseline. Since you are such a high user of electricity, I'm thinking that you're not the target market for an EV. Or you can use it as an incentive to decrease your electricity use.

    ;)

    My local utilities - National Grid for gas and NStar Electric both have a smiley face system for my bill. They compare me to 200 neighbors with similar sized home in terms of efficiency. I hate getting sad faces on my bill.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Having to pay for the charger is a deal-killer. One is already paying a premium for an electric car over an ICE car. Adding $2K more to the total is asking too much.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Having to pay for the charger is a deal-killer. One is already paying a premium for an electric car over an ICE car. Adding $2K more to the total is asking too much.

    An if they were to give you a "free charger" and bumped up the price, would you be OK with that? The high speed charger is about $800-1000. The rest is typical labor for a licensed electrician to install it.

    You could always just use a 110V outlet and extension cord...

    Also it's a deal killer for you. The people that want EV's aren't really concerned about the extra money for the charger. Early adopters always pay the highest price.
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