Jeep Wrangler

tsjay · October 2003

Knowing you like I do, it wouldn't surprise me if you removed the brakes and washed them every day.

Why is it a long weekend of work? I mean, why longer than any other weekend?

Tom

Have you hugged your Jeep today?

mac24 · October 2003

You have the basics down ok. When you depress the pedal (I can only let you get away with petal once!), a piston in the master cylinder moves fluid through the pipes and hoses to the brakes, where more pistons move to apply pressure to the shoes and pads. When you open the bleed nipple the fluid will squirt out instead of moving the pistons (because it's easier).

In practice, you normally use two people. One to slowly depress the pedal to the floor (and top up the master cylinder reservoir as you progress), the other to systematically loosen and tighten the bleed nipple.

You start with the brake furthest from the master cylinder, usually the PSR. With a short length of clear plastic tube over the bleed nipple to direct the waste fluid into a container, you slacken the nipple. The pedal is then depressed until it nears the floor, at which time the nipple should be closed. If you wait till the pedal reaches the end of its stroke the fluid will no longer be under pressure and air could be sucked back into the system through the nipple.

Continue like this until clear fluid comes through, then move to the DSR, PSF then finally DSF.

I prefer to work on my own, so I use a pressure bleeder like this one:

This forces fluid through the system under pressure, so all I have to do is open and shut the nipples. There are also devices that will suck the fluid through the nipples using a vacuum. Finally, you can buy one way valves that either replace or fit onto the nipples, enabling you to pump the pedal yourself.

tsjay · October 2003

No, I have replaced the brake pedal with a very stiff flower, so I was correct in saying that I depress the petal.

Darn, you got me again! Old people get their spelling and/or their words mixed up, Mac!

Thanks, for yet another great post. Good info, as always.

How much new fluid will I go through with the standard bleeding technique before I truly purge out all of the old fluid?

Tom

Have you hugged your Jeep today?

mac24 · October 2003

Age got you a free pass the first time........ but two separate posts????

:--)

Anyhow, I always use a sealed 32 fl.oz. bottle of Valvoline SynPower Brake Fluid. It exceeds the required specs and costs around $5. I suggest you buy two, just in case you mess up. If the second one is unused it'll happily sit on the shelf until the next time (as long as you leave it sealed).

tsjay · October 2003

geepers · October 2003

Flushing brake fluid is one of the most overlooked items on a car. If the car doesn't start, not a big deal, if it doesn't stop, that's some big trouble. I'd recommend getting something like Mac suggested so you can do the job yourself. I've got one that draws a vacuum. A great investment for the money and some extra peace of mind knowing you've got clean fluid in the brake lines.

tidester · October 2003

Old people get their spelling and/or their words mixed up, Mac!

That why we provide senior discounts for using the spell checker at the bottom of this page! ;-)

tidester, host

jacknimble · October 2003

Hi guys and gals, I've been a lurker for a few years on this board, but since Mac joined, I thought I would pick his brain on this:

I have a 2001 Wrangler, 4.0 and auto tranny. In colder weather, and when the transmission is cold, it does not downshift or downshifts after being stopped for awhile or when taking off from a stop. The dealer is scratching his head, and I have found no TSB on it. It sometimes shifts very hard when moving into reverse or drive as well, but I dont know if that is related or normal.

Once the transmission is warm, it seems to shift fine (I could nitpick about it hunting for gears sometimes, but that is probably normal). I suspect that over time, the transmission will fail to downshift completely, and would like to be able to give the dealer some idea where to look for trouble. I report it everytime I take it in for service so at least I have it on record in case it goes out after warranty, but would rather get something definitive done before then.

It is a little unsafe, because sometimes after a complete stop, it will then downshift and without sufficient braking power, it lunges forward, not to mention that with only 3 forward gears, it is noticably annoying.

Any ideas?

tsjay · October 2003

Is it typical of TJ's to have back brakes that will not self-adjust??? Seems like I have heard that complaint from lots of people, and it sure is true of Thelma Jane.

I can take the rear drums off, spray the threads on the self-adjuster with WD40, adjust the brakes until it's a little tough to get the drum back on, and then the emergency brake works fine.

The trouble is, after a few days, I am right back in the same boat: the emergency brake will barely hold, and it cannot be counted on at all on a very steep slope. I ALWAYS leave the Jeep in gear when stopped on steep slopes, but it would be nice to have the emergency brake going for me too.

I even make it a point to park near a tree that would stop Thelma Jane before she built up any speed, in case she slips out of gear somehow. That's not always possible, however. If a nice big rock or something is handy, I even chock a wheel.

Often, Ross Allen stays in the Jeep during short breaks, and I am paranoid about the Jeep rolling down a steep slope with him in there.

So, Mac, or anyone, what's the solution concerning the rear brake adjustment? I have tried repeatedly backing up and hitting the brakes, which is supposed to activate the self-adjusters, but that hasn't seemed to do any good.

Tom

Have you hugged your Jeep today?

P.S. Mac, you must be VERY proud of me! I said "break" for a brief interlude in the activities, and I said "brake" for the stopping mechanism!!!!

tsjay · October 2003

Your re-post was probably just an accident, but if you purposely re-posted your question, I guess you missed Mac's response up the page.

Keep us posted on how that tranny thing goes.

Good luck in getting it resolved.

Tom

Have you hugged your Jeep today?

twylie · October 2003

One point to remember is that brake fluid will destroy painted surfaces, so be careful not to get it on any exterior finishes if you are concerned about that kind of stuff. On other vehicles, I've used speedbleeders with great success. http://www.speedbleeder.com/ They have a ball bearing spring loaded check valve in them. Probably the second best way compared to a pressure system like Mac uses. They are good for any car that get's regular fluid flushes in that it's quick and you only need one person to bleed brakes. People that run SCCA use them since they often change brake fluid after a track day.

-twylie

justin · October 2003

I am the proud new co-owner of a 2004 Jeep Wrangler Sport. Silver/black soft top, 5 speed, 30in wheel group, Trak-Lok, 7 speaker Cd player. Car had 1 mile on it, ONE mile, when I test drove it last night!

Had a 95 Sahara and a 99 Sport, so it feels good to be back in a Wrangler. Won't be my personal daily driver, but I like knowing it is in my garage every night

The silver/black combo is very sharp, and the new-ish seat design is nice too. Why doesn't it have the passenger airbag turn-off switch anymore? And why does the base radio get 4 digit security code, but my CD player doesn't?

Thanks!

geepers · October 2003

Tom, my YJ has an emergency brake adjustment also. Just a matter of turning a nut to tighten the cable from underneath the car. I've had to do it once. I've heard of dogs learning how to work light switches, Ross Allen might have been studying how to work that shifter so you'd better get that ebrake tightened up.

Gary

mac24 · October 2003

To put it simply, one of the rear brake adjusters on early models is poorly designed and just doesn't work!

Remove both rear drums and take a look at the PS adjustment mechanism. Attached to the adjuster is a toothed wheel with a pawl pressing against it. To adjust the brakes you have to lift the pawl, rotate the wheel, then release the pawl which will engage with the teeth and prevent the adjuster from loosening. Now, look at the pawl on the other side (DS) and you'll see that it sits clear of the toothed wheel by about 1/4"!!! The reason that your brakes de-adjust so quickly is that there's no pawl to keep the adjuster in place, and that you keep the adjuster so nicely lubricated. This is a good thing if the adjusters are working properly, as the ratchet mechanism allows the brakes to adjust in one direction only, i.e. to tighten, and needs to be able to rotate freely. In your case it makes them easier to loosen.

Eventually, DC came to realise the problem and changed the pawl to a new design in '02. The part # on your Jeep is 4761 759, and the new part # for '02 is 3461 665. In both cases the part is called 'LEVER Park Brake. Adjusting'.

The above is just my own research, I've never seen anything official from DC which appertains to the problem. I fixed mine by welding a small tab to the offending pawl, making it 1/4" wider and thus engaging the toothed wheel. Another possible solution would be to use caulk or silicone sealant on the adjuster threads making them more difficult to turn. However, the ideal solution would be to use the new design pawl.

P.S. Glad to hear you got brake and break sorted. As long as you don't start referring to bumbers, fog lites, VIN numbers, or RPM's etc., you'll be fine!

;--)

mac24 · October 2003

I can't speak for the YJ, but the cable adjuster on the TJ should never be altered unless the shoes are in correct adjustment. The adjustment, which is by measured by length rather than tension, is fully described in the FSM. It's usually only required when a new emergency brake cable has been fitted.

mac24 · October 2003

As Tom said, I replied earlier. It's post #10641.

geepers · October 2003

I guess my '91 is antiquated. No such warnings about my rig but I do see that warning appear for the '94 model. For mine I make sure the rear brakes are good to go and adjust the ecable so it doesn't put drag on the brakes when it's released.

I know I look at a new Jeep with a 4.0 and the engine bay doesn't look at all familiar to my '91 with a 4.0. I'd better stick to talking about the Jeep wave until I get a new Jeep.

tsjay · October 2003

Congrats on the new Sport! Color sounds real good too. Silver in combination with a black top is SHARP!

If you're new here, and I think you are, then WELCOME! Stick around and be part of the gang here.

Got pics of that new Jeep?

Tom

Have you hugged your Jeep today?

01r1 · October 2003

Cool! Sounds like a nice Wrangler. Talk about low miles! (mile) How soon until you take her off road?

To answer your airbag switch question, I heard they had to put the switch in because they offered the Wrangler without a back seat. That would force someone to use the front seat for their kids car seat. Maybe now, with the 04's, they don't offer it without a back seat and there's no reason to have that switch?

-Pete

mac24 · October 2003

True, there's little in common between a '91 and a current model except for the basic concept.

However, they do both share the driving fun

and of course the wave

!!!

div2 · October 2003

I ALWAYS advise that you use a pressure bleeder. The "pump the pedal" 2-person method will change out the fluid but it can also kill your brake/clutch master cylinder-here's why: When you loosen a bleeder screw and depress the pedal the pedal will push the master cylinder piston further into the cylinder than it normally travels. This "unused" area of the cylinder is often coated with corrosion and/or grunge-particularly on vehicles that haven't had the fluid flushed in a long time. The corrosion tears up the piston seals and the result is a bad master cylinder.
I also like to use DOT 4 fluid; it has a higher wet and dry boiling point than DOT 3 fluid. DON'T USE DOT 5 FLUID!!! DOT 5 fluid is silicone and not hygroscopic, so as moisture enters the system, it is not absorbed by the fluid, and results in beads of moisture moving through the brake line, collecting in the calipers. It can also seriously screw up ABS pumps. I use ATE fluids alternate between SuperBlue and TYP 200(Amber) fluid; they are identical except for color, so you can easily tell when you have flushed out the older fluid. The ATE specs are excellent: dry boiling point is 536F while wet is 396F. You can probably get by with changing ATE fluids every two to three years. I change every fluid two years on my cars unless they are going to see track use or high speed mountain driving, in which case I change it every six months. Having your brake pedal go to the floor when approaching a turn at 110 mph is no fun...

justin · October 2003

no pics yet. i am sure their will be some this weekend. my 99 Sport had a backseat, with the airbag off switch. doesn't really matter to me since i don't have kids, but thought it was rather curious that they would take that option away.

i am not a techie, mechanically inclined guy, so please humor me, and answer me this:

why do i need Trak-Lok, when i have 4wd? i didn't want/need Trak-Lok, but didn't object since it was on the Jeep i liked. they explained that is sends power away from a spinning wheel, so you don't get stuck. don't get stuck? how could i get stuck, when all i need to do is throw her in 4wd and get out. am i missing some Trak-lok importance here?

thanks!

justin · October 2003

my 04 owners manual has the airbag off switch, but it seems like it is an option. must be part of a package or something...

mac24 · October 2003

Good point. I didn't think it would be a problem for Tom, but obviously the likelihood of it happening increases with the age/mileage/frequency of fluid change; i.e. the less the fluid is changed, the more moisture it absorbs and the more moisture in the system the more it will corrode.

ATE is a good product, pity it's not more easily available. I like the idea of a same spec but different color fluid. The Valvoline SynPower exceeds Dot 3 and Dot 4 specs. It's not as high performance as ATE, but very respectable none the less..... high dry boiling point 502F / minimum wet boiling point 343F.

mac24 · October 2003

Air bag switch only comes on SE models as it's possible to order an SE without a rear seat.

tsjay · October 2003

Trac Loc is a limited slip system in your rear differential. It makes both rear wheels pull when only one has good traction. With an open differential, if one tire has almost no traction, it will spin, and the other tire on that same axle will just sit there doing nothing. With a limited slip in the differential, as long as you have at least a little bit of traction (not if a tire is completely off the ground), it will make both rear wheels turn.

You probably didn't realize it, but with open differentials, even when in four wheel drive, you actually have "two wheel drive."

Only one tire on the front axle and one tire on the back axle actually pulls.

The next step above a limited slip is a locker, and with a locker, you can even have one tire completely off the ground, and the other tire will pull. If you had lockers front and back, then you would really have four wheel drive. (Most four wheel drive vehicles do not have lockers... usually, they would just be on vehicles that get taken off road all the time).

Tom

Have you hugged your Jeep today?

justin · October 2003

thanks! i wish i could have got ABS, but they said you can't with the 30" wheel package. other than that, the Jeep is perfect! will be getting a hitch installed to pull the Waverunner next spring.

jacknimble · October 2003

I have no idea how I posted that message again, I must have had two IE windows open at once.

Thanks for the tips, I am going to print your comments and take them to the dealer today.

I don't know if he has performed any of the diagnostic stuff, but at least it is a start.

div2 · October 2003

I agree, there's no question that the Synpower fluid is a good choice. ATE is really overkill, but my friends don't call me anal-retentive for nothing...

drperez007 · October 2003

Tom, Mac, and everyone else who responded to my Wrangler Sport 5sp ordering question(s), "thank you." It appears that, as mentioned, you cannot order ABS if you opt for the 30" tire and wheel group. Although I have always been a "bags and brakes" [air bags and ABS] kind'a guy, I think I'll take a chance without the brakes here and, as suggested by a few of you, go with the Dana 44 rear axle, the Trac-Lok, and the 3.73 axle ratio, as well as the F&R disc brake options. Is there anything anyone would absolutely NOT order on a new Sport (besides an automatic transmission!)?

Thanks, all.

Steve

tsjay · October 2003

You are most welcome.

When you get right down to it, there aren't really a whole lot of options when it comes to Jeeps.

I don't remember which top option you are going with. That's another biggie, like the axle option. Did you say you are getting the dual tops? That's the best bet, if you can afford it.

If you can't get the dual tops, then it becomes a tough choice as to whether you get the hard top or the soft top. The hard top costs more, but you will never get a factory quality hard top any cheaper than you can get it from DC on your new Jeep to start with. I think they go for about $2000 brand new, and it only costs something like $900 as a factory option.

I got the hard top only, and, although I wish at times that I had a soft top, I think I made the right choice, since I couldn't have both. I have something else to use as my daily driver, and I have a garage, so I can take the hard top off pretty much for the whole summer, and just leave the Jeep in the garage when it's raining.

The soft tops are nice in that you can start the day with the top down, and then put it back up, if it begins to rain. I just have to take my chances, if I get very far from home with the top and doors off.

I think the seven speaker stereo option is a good one. Back in the 01s, they had a five speaker option that included a subwoofer. I went that route and am glad that I did. The Jeep radios without the subwoofer just had NO bass at all and sounded AWFUL.

The sentry key option is a good one too. It has saved the Jeep of one of our members from being stolen on two different occasions.

Can't think of anything else at the moment.

Keep us posted on how things go, OK?

Tom

Have you hugged your Jeep today?

mac24 · October 2003

Is there anything anyone would absolutely NOT order on a new Sport (besides an automatic transmission!)?

I'd pass on the underseal, paint protectorant, Scotchguard, etc., etc.

:--)

(.......and what's the problem with the auto?)

tsjay · October 2003

Thanks for the info on the brake adjusters. I'll be sure and check out the prawl next time I take the drums off. I don't remember noticing that I didn't have to lift the prawl in order to adjust the one side, but I might not have been paying attention.

Is it easy to replace that thing with the new part?

I picked up some of that brake fluid that you recommended today.

Tom

Have you hugged your Jeep today?

drosketer · October 2003

One option that I wouldn't bother looking at (or paying for) is the hide-a-trunk. One could argue that anything is better than nothing, and at the very least it will conceal some things... but from what I have seen and heard, it's not particularly sturdy. The dealer I've been talking to laughed it off as well and to me that speaks volumes.

Andrew

smedranger · October 2003

Sorry it's been awhile since I've posted but I've been busy. And as of this past Sunday's events...I fell down the steps head first and backwards trying to avoid my dog breaking my left arm (oops I'm left-handed)...OUCH!!! I fractured the big bone about an 1" to 1 1/2" from my wrist so I'm lucky with that. It's definitely taking me longer to type this with one good hand and one finger on the other.

Hey tomster,
Is Gill changing his website again? Do I have to re-register?

Congrats on the Jeep Justin

Well, my hand is really starting to hurt so I'll say farewell for now...

Hug your Jeeps for me

smedranger aka smed...wrangler/cougar

tsjay · October 2003

PAWL! PAWL! PAWL! Where did I get "prawl?"

I'm getting worse all the time! Can you believe that I once was a decent speller, had a decent vocabulary, and could write using proper grammar and punctuation?

Tom

Have you hugged your Jeep today?

tsjay · October 2003

Sorry 'bout yer arm, but it sounds like it could have been a lot worse.

Gill's is probably gone for good. Gill is having some bad luck, and he had to sell his servers. He still has one server, and he was trying to get the site transfered to that server. Something must not be going right, though, because no one can get the home page to load.

Tom

Have you hugged your Jeep today?

nolid5 · October 2003

I think "prawl" is actually pawl with a little southern accent thrown in

Hey, is today a Turkey Bay day? Hope it's a little warmer down there, it's pretty cold up here in New England this morning.

Have a good day.

Rich

mac24 · October 2003

......... you'll be talking about your rear axel next!!!

Actually, I've never changed that part as I modified mine. The golden rule when working on rear brakes is to remove both drums, but only work on one side at a time. Each side will either be identical to the other, or a mirror image. Either way, when you have a pile of parts waiting to be reassembled you just have to look at the other side to see which way they go. Of course, you could always take a picture instead, but having the actual thing there in 3D is much better.

mac24 · October 2003

Sorry to hear about your wrist. Are you sure your dog isn't moonlighting, maybe for a local accident claims lawyer? We've got a cat that might have been employed by the Mafia it's so good at tripping people on the stairs at night!

mtngal · October 2003

I agree that the hide-a-trunk is something I would skip. Since I rarely have the back seat in my Wrangler, and up until recently was always transporting a Golden Retriever in the back, the hide-a-trunk would be in the way.

Tops - I test drove a new Wrangler with a soft top recently and was very surprised at how much better the new tops are (I bought in '98). If I were to buy now, I'd had a hard time deciding. I don't have a garage so I have no place to put a hard top so it would be an either/or situation.

Deb - sorry about your broken arm. Be glad that you aren't like a friend of mine - he's a single guy with a 5 speed and broke his left leg. He got very familiar with the bus schedule...

embeeduece · October 2003

Justin, congrats on the new Jeep. I just bought my first a few weeks ago, and it sounds liek our are almost identical.

-Mike

tsjay · October 2003

Called Old Gill on the way home from Turkey Bay today just to see how he was doing, and he told me he has itsajeep up and running again on his last remaining server. He sold his other servers.

Yeeeeeehawwwwww!!

Tom

Have you hugged your Jeep today?

tsjay · October 2003

but a guy was gored in the stomach by a buffalo at Land Between the Lakes National Recreation Area today. LBL is where Turkey Bay is located, and about ten miles or so down the road from Turkey Bay OHV Area is the Bison Range.

After wheelin', the guy I wheeled with, Mike ( the guy I work with who has a 97 TJ), and I thought we would go down to the Bison Range and let his little three year old granddaughter see some buffalo.

As we approached the area, we saw two ambulances, a firetruck, all kinds of Forest Service emergency vehicles, and a medevac helicopter. We found out later that some guy had climbed the fence and gotten in there with the buffalo, and he had been gored in the guts by one of them!

Tom

Have you hugged your Jeep today?

drosketer · October 2003

Sad, but it seems people do this sort of thing every few years. Near Edmonton is Elk Island National Park which has Bison herds. Well, quite a few years back we had a tourist decide to go and pet one... This bison at hand didn't take particularly well to this and the tourist was either gored/trampled (or both). I don't remember anymore. Regardless, just goes to show that too many people don't have enough respect for the wild side of "wildlife".

Makes me wonder if the story I heard about someone smearing honey on their child's face, in an attempt to snap a pic of a wild bear licking them, is true or a myth.

Andrew

bigjohnny · October 2003

The Yankees got speared by 25 Marlins tonight!

bigjohnny · October 2003

I used to talk to you as JohnM75! I don't know if you remember me but I changed my email and everything. I see you have too. Just wanted to say Hi!

tsjay · October 2003

Good ta hear from ya again. Stick around this time and post often!

What did you ever do about that door? How's yer Jeep?

Tom

Have you hugged your Jeep today?

bigjohnny · October 2003

but I talked to Santa about those fender flares!

jacknimble · October 2003

Well, I asked if they had performed a hydraulic test on it, and he said they had. So another brick wall. My town is small, and this Daimler-Chrylser dealer ( he is not a Jeep dealer) is the least of the two evils, so I guess I'm going to try again at the next oil change.

On the add-a-trunk, I've had two TJs, one with the original metal one and the second with the newer plastic one. The metal one is flimsy, the plastic one much better. With the first one, I got tired of having to lift fertilizer, dog food, lawn mowers, and the like over the thing, so I eventually removed it. On the second TJ, I removed it as soon as I got home. They are handy to store things in with the top off, but they get in the way too much otherwise.

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