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Comments
Don't confuse the Faithful with facts. Their minds are made up. Or all those seniors in their Caddy's seem to be doing just fine. The Insurance institute has already debunked the claim about age being a factor in more auto accidents.
It is so hard to break old concepts about Toyota. Yes they were decent vehicles in the 1990s. Now they have a lot of gremlins from lack of testing & coordination with suppliers of their electronic DBW systems. If it was other makes as well we would see the smoke.
Silly two-footed drivers
But based on my experience in the 1980s helping investigate unintended acceleration in the Audi 5000, I suspect that smart pedals cannot solve the problem. The trouble, unbelievable as it may seem, is that sudden acceleration is very often caused by drivers who press the gas pedal when they intend to press the brake.
In these cases, the problem typically happened when the driver first got into the car and started it. After turning on the ignition, the driver would intend to press lightly on the brake pedal while shifting from park to drive (or reverse), and suddenly the car would leap forward (or backward). Drivers said that continued pressing on the brake would not stop the car; it would keep going until it crashed. Drivers believed that something had gone wrong in the acceleration system, and that the brakes had failed.
But when engineers examined these vehicles post-crash, they found nothing that could account for what the drivers had reported. The trouble occurred in cars small and large, cheap and expensive, with and without cruise control or electronic engine controls, and with carburetors, fuel injection and even diesel engines. The only thing they had in common was an automatic transmission. An investigation by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration found no electro-mechanical defects to explain the problem. Nor did similar government studies in Canada and Japan or any number of private studies.
SUA not involving 'Yotas
A Long Island doctor crashes his BMW into a storefront Hanukkah party. A Rhode Island man rams his pickup into a house. An Arizona woman drives her Pontiac into a burger joint. An Australian football pro launches his truck into a parked car in which an elderly woman is sleeping in the backseat.
What these accidents (and many like them) have in common is that they didn’t involve a Toyota and the drivers freely blamed themselves for stepping on the wrong pedal or getting a foot entangled in an out-of-place floor mat. Such incidents happen all the time—and would make apt fodder for complaints to regulators about “unintended acceleration” if anyone cared to file them. Herein may lie the beginning of wisdom about Toyota’s mysteriously high level of sudden-acceleration complaints compared to most (but not all) car makers.
Then there’s this: In 2001, at least four papers were presented at the annual meeting of the Trial Lawyers Association urging a revival of sudden unintended acceleration litigation, insisting that such cases could prevail in absence of evidence of a defect, and even amid evidence of driver error, simply by harping in front of a jury on a record of “Other Similar Incidents” (OSI).
That’s the roadmap being followed now, as lawyer Randy Roberts told CNBC this week: “Toyota is very good at taking one consumer complaint about sudden unintended acceleration and dissecting it and convincing you that it may have been a floor mat or driver error or a sticky pedal. But when you put all those complaints out on the table, then you can see the big picture. That’s how you connect the dots.”
Huh? The logic here is ridiculous. To wit: 15 examples of X causing Y are proof that something other than X must cause Y.
Industrious bloggers lately have shown that drivers in many Toyota incidents were disproportionately old—and an electronic gremlin shouldn’t discriminate by age. Then again, older drivers may be more inclined to complain, or more likely to respond badly to vehicular misbehavior that wouldn’t trouble a younger driver. One pattern, though, is unmistakable: Complaints beget complaints.
So now we have to accept that Toyota & Lexus owners are Whiners, complainers, incompetent, idiots and just plain lousy drivers, if we believe the Faithful here and the biased media sources. Not convincing me of that. Toyota has electronic problems. If NASA finds the problem, the Feds should sue Toyota for all the R&D involved. We have already spent too many tax dollars on Toyota's SUA problems.
Sikes - no way.
Cali CHP and his family - still questions as to why he did not put the car in neutral, but looks like there was definitely a serious problem with the car.
All those deaths that are being assigned to Toyota SUA - no proof in any of those cases that something was wrong with the car.
NY Prius - foot on the gas.
Congress cry-baby lady - the car is fine.
There are really VERY FEW "CERTAIN CASES" of the car apparently acting strangely.
And I can't recall a single case at all that we KNOW a floor mat was stuck.
My mom got tagged by photo radar for speeding when she was 85. She quit driving that week.
Lars, we really don't know if the trooper tried to put the Lexus in neutral or not do we? He may have tried but nothing may have happened.
He's no dummy. He doesn't want to be in a car with unintended acceleration!!!
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Having seen the pictures, I really have to doubt she was in a situation where she had her foot off the gas and thought she was applying the brake. If she drives two-footed, she had a foot on the brake after pulling off the street and into what probably was the second diagonal space from the street. If she drives one-footed, she probably didn't even need to apply the gas and had her foot on the brake as she rolled into the space.
I think a better blame game is needed. Like, she applied the brake pedal 255 times since some start of time period on the EDR. Or she didn't know how to shift into neutral during the 1-second it took from the parking space over the lawn and into the side of the building. Or she was faking it hoping for a large legal settlement.
Or she was busy calling her husband on the phone when she should have been panicking.
Blame on wrong pedal doesn't wash. Most people would roll in off the street with their foot on the brake and idle their way into the diagonal parking space with their foot on the brake already.
http://www.wisn.com/video/23006946/index.html
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Are you implying that he simultaneously experienced the tangled floor mat and the dreaded electronic glitch that no one can find?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
It does make me wonder if he pushed the on/off button some and if that confused the drive by wire shifter.
Question: Was there actually a previous driver that had the floor mat problem??
First, it seems really strange to me that if there was a previous drievr that reported an engine runaway problem why was it not IMMEDIATELY dealt with, properly dealt with???
Were I the previous driver and encountered the floor mat problem I would personally, and immediately, put that floor mat in the trunk. Wouldn't anyone..??
I have personally encountered engine "surging" due to the floor mat getting behind the brake pedal and over the gas pedal. Press on the brakes to a serious level and the engine RPM rises. In the first instance I was test driving a new Mazda Miata with a Manual transmission so the surging was not a problem that I couldn't overcome.
But I did pull over to check and see why, it was a dealer "protective" add in mat to preserve the new carpets. I removed it and read the salesperson off over the incident.
The second time was in a third party owned Mazda minivan that was supplied as a part of a condo lease. The floor mat was not secured by the avaialble hooks which I corrected on the spot and notified the owner of the potential problem.
Also, was it the dealer that concluded the floor mats were the cause or was it the previous driver..?? And even still, what dealer would willingly admit to such DOUBLE level stupidity..??
What if this previous driver story was concocted by Toyota as a cover up..??
From Toyota's viewpoint I would much rather pay the damages for 4 deaths (that was going to happen in any case) rather than face the question publically of just what was the causative factor...??
Did Toyota's damage control PR team get to the site first..??
If you "buy" Toyota's "cover" damage control PR story, the floor mat was the problem, then quite clearly Saylor was too stupid to try shifting into neutral.
On the other hand if it wasn't the floor mat then what was it..??
If you suppose, in the alternative, that the engine/transaxle firmware was at fault then Saylor could have, might have done, everything one might think of to try and stop the car but NOTHING worked.
I would much rather think Saylor was reasoning logically, maybe not at first, but shortly thereafter.
Has the person who previously drove the ES350 and encountered a runaway due to the floor mat actually come forward..?? Or even better, has anyone asked the dealer to identify the individual..?
This is the major evidence the Sheriff used to blame the accident on the floor mat. This was a couple months after the fact. Toyota had good reason to make the floor mat the cause for sure. Why did Bernard a live witness to UA in a Toyota vehicle, not testify before Congress? A another live first hand account would be good to have. I have not seen Toyota try to discredit this person that experienced UA. I Wonder Why???
SAN DIEGO — Three days before the fiery crash of a loaner Lexus sedan that killed California Highway Patrol Officer Mark Saylor and his family, a man who was given the same car experienced a similar sudden acceleration problem and reported it to the dealership, a Sheriff’s Department investigation found.
Frank Bernard, 61, said he told a receptionist at Bob Baker Lexus El Cajon that the gas pedal on the ES 350 had been “stuck in wide open position.” He reported becoming anxious because the woman did not seem to understand what he meant and he thought it was important.
“I think the mat caused it,” Bernard said in the report, which also quotes him alerting the receptionist: “You need to tell somebody.”
Runaway Lexus
Are we to believe that Frank Bernard experienced a UA, WOT incident, somehow discovered the pedal was caught on the floor mat, and yet continued merrily on his way with the suspect floor mat still placing him in danger..??
Yes, so he was 61, an "oldster", but since he warned the receptionist....
Has anyone in the press, new media looked this guy up for an interview..??
Bernard told investigators that he thought the floor mat caused it, according to the newspaper.
Where's Frank Bernard?
The more you read the less you believe the floor mat story.
More reason to doubt the Frank Bernard story:
When investigators interviewed receptionist Jessica Martin-Dunleavy, she said that she did not remember Bernard or any specific complaints, the report said. But in a second interview with investigators, the 20-year-old said she did recall an older couple returning a car and the man complaining about the mat and that it made the car "go full-throttle.''
Martin-Dunleavy said she reported the complaint to the detail specialist on duty that day, but that employee told investigators that no one told him there was a problem with the car.
You are not alone.
A forensic mechanic who reconstructs accidents and vehicle defects for a living, Folck says the crash could well have been caused by a floor mat -- just as the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration concluded.
But he has doubts, too, especially now that the safety administration and Toyota are studying the electronic controls and software in the Lexus ES 350, a luxury Toyota brand, and several other models. In his experience, such faults could come and go without a trace.
What witnesses saw
But the recalls and the concerns about electronic controls have put some of the details of the crash in a new light, such as the first signs that the Saylors' car was in trouble.
Several witnesses in other cars along the freeway told investigators that when they first saw the Lexus south of the crash site, it was moving slowly or nearly stopped along the edge of the road, with its emergency flashers on. One said she saw a puff of smoke come from the front of the car. Witnesses reported that several seconds later, the Lexus flew past them toward the end of the highway.
And even though several witnesses said the car's brakes were on fire in the moments before the crash, another said it didn't have brake lights on.
http://bulletin.aarp.org/states/mi/2010/8/articles/questions_surround_crash_cali- fornia_involving.html
Does Toyota want all these questions looked at closely by a jury? My guess is, NO. Look for an out of court settlement to cover up the facts.
"An attorney for the Lexus dealer, which could face the brunt of any liability lawsuits from the crash, said the first reports were rushed and that the cause of the crash "is under the hood, not under the floor."
"I was, at the very beginning of this situation, seriously doubtful that a floor mat caused the death of the four members of the Saylor family," James Marinos said. "I'm convinced now more than ever that it didn't.""
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Detail specialist...
Would that be your typical the sub-20 YO McD "flipper" graduate...??
I hardly ever use Lexus for service issues but when I do I NEVER let them wash the car afterward. Too many bad experiences in the past, actual paint damage, bumper corner scrapes, etc.
Is 61 year Bernard still around? Maybe he is in hiding with Sikes. :shades:
I wonder if Frank Bernard is afraid to speak. He'll be accused of pressing the brake pedal 255 times on the Camry he had as a loaner.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Strange that the news media has not followed up with an interview.
Found any yet?
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, which regulates auto safety, is exploring whether to require the brake override on new vehicles. Toyota has already said it would use the system in most new Toyota and Lexus vehicles by the end of 2010."
General Motors to install brake override safety measure in new vehicles worldwide (Yahoo)
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I'll leave it at that.
By DEFAULT, sort of, It does have a BTO, Brake/Throttle Override.
It has a BTO only in the sense that the HSD system is SUPPOSED to go into regen mode when the gas pedal is relaxed to idle. OR, and this is the important one, if the brake pedal is depressed enough to turn on the brake lights.
Obviously it didn't quite work out that way with Sike's runaway Prius.
And since the CHP officer observed the brake lights going on then the brake light switch could not have been at fault.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
20 minutes, 1200 seconds, a brake application every ~5 seconds......
Possible for a mere human to even do that...??
I stick with my previous statement. Sikes gets paid off to go away and not force a closer look at his Prius that experienced UA. Who has that car currently? What is Sikes driving? That was his only vehicle after the bankruptcy.
A closer look at his Prius that he said experienced UA.
Fixed it for you.
JT
I could see the "EDR" recording the brake pedal depressions as an anomally with the throttle wide open the entire time. But that would put EXTREME credibility to Sike's "story".
Otherwise there would have to have been a date and time of day recording along with each brake depression in order for ~250 depressions to have been important. But that's NOT a story I could buy into easily.
No, you simply found a way to express your own personal bias.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Sikes is a total sham artist.
There MAY WELL BE Priuses which are having UA/SUA problems. It very well might be true.
But of all the "unbelievable witnesses" so far, I'd put him at the top of the list.
http://www.boston.com/cars/newsandreviews/overdrive/2010/04/for_a_long_healthy_p- rius_diy_a.html
CAUTION:...there are apparently TWO A0A documents floating around. The quote below is the one we are interested in!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------
Q8b: What if a customer is not satisfied with the accelerator pedal operation or the feel of the pedal
after the reinforcement shim is installed
Q8b: If the customer is not satisfied with the accelerator pedal operation or the feel of the pedal after the
reinforcement bar has been installed, a replacement accelerator pedal will be offered at no charge
when they become available.
1st - determine if your gas pedal is the recalled version (CTS is the one and is present in almost all Corollas assembled in North America.
2) You MUST have the recall shim modified by an authorized Toyota mechanic. (THERE IS NO GOING AROUND THIS STEP!!!!!!)
3) If you are unhappy for ANY REASON with the "shimmed pedal" as modified by the dealer, You must make a complaint with Toyota USA and get a case number.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------
I had the steps performed above (had the recall work done), and for some reason the pedal just did not feel right so I proceeded to the complaint step (#3 above).
After 3 months the "new pedal" arrived at the dealer for installation (about 20 min....2 bolts and the electrical plug, then check out with the Toyota computer.
THIS NEW PEDAL IS EXACTLY THE SAME AS THE MODIFIED ONE DONE UNDER THE RECALL ...SHIM AND ALL!!!! and a small white dot put on the shaft of the new pedal, to indicate that this SHIM modification was done at the CTS factory and not by a dealer. (Oh FYI......the part number is different as well.
There are NO other changes that I could see, and I had them BOTH side by side prior to the installation. I get a new (unworn) pedal and the correctly sized (for sure) shim for my trouble! :sick: I guess I will have to live with it UNTIL THE NEXT MOD!!!! LOL
What I find amazing is that the dealership (IMHO, a good dealer is hard to find!!) STILL has the Weathertech all weather mats PROUDLY for sale in the parts display area!!!! :P THAT IS TRULY incredible IMHO!
I was lucky and my dealer notified me about the gas pedal recall (I still have not received the official notice though!) and I have had the time to have both have the Shim installed in early Feb.(which felt pretty bad to my foot BTW) and then.... the replacement pedal was just installed a few days ago.
=========================================================
Rant is over ....
=========================================================
but Toyota needs to get its act together, both timing wise, as well as info from Corporate dissemination to the dealership wise.
As I said, the dealer is excellent, but the communication is awful. (I even had to make them aware that the oil consumption TSB existed last year! (They had no record of it UNTIL I produced the document itself....then it magically appeared! A few days ago, I inquired about the floormat deal (while getting an oil chg) and was told it did not apply to my vehicle since it had the oem carpet mats, and that the recall had not been firmed up as yet. Well that would put the chat I had with Toyota and the mailing of the latest notice within a day of so.
To protect myself, I had corporate send in writing, the different "campaigns" and their status for my files!