I may be purchasing a 2003 Jeep Liberty Sport in the next day or so. I think it has Goodyear tires on it now. Can I request that the dealer put BF Goodrich tires on it prior to taking delivery ?
The sales manager has called me a few times and keeps asking what it will take to close the sale. I would like a larger trade allowance & he knows that. We will likely arrive at a number that I can live with. As the month-end approaches I assume that the dealership & the salesman are anxious to close a sale on a 2003.
Any suggestions while negotiating ? Little known things that I should be asking for ?
What aftermarket wheels have you all put on Libertys. My wife's has the standard Sport steel wheels and she doesn't like them. Anyone put American Racing on? She likes the "Burst."
A thumbs up for Michelle in the internet parts sales arena at Steve White Jeep. She gave me a great deal on the Mopar accessory wheels for our Liberty. I asked my local dealer to match it. He told me the price I was given was less than my local dealer's cost. He said if I could buy those wheels for that price I should jump on it. I did.
MPG on fist few fuel ups in the 17-18 range, around town driving.
Seems a little loud in the back, not sure if it is the exhaust, tires, differential.
Overall, a good ride.
The dealer has given me the run-around on Gap insurance. They said it is covered in my state and disclosed on the back of the contract. The finance company THINKS that is also correct, but I cannot find it on the back of the contract. The finance company will be able to discuss it further once they receive a copy of the contract.
Dealer tells me that it can take 2-3 weeks from the date that I pick up the car, until the date that the loan on my trade-in is paid off. Not sure I believe this, but I will follow up with the bank on both ends.
Dealer tried to sell me the usual extended warranty, rust-roofing, etc. but I passed.
If you've recently bought or are shopping for a used domestic vehicle, a reporter working on a front page story for a major midwestern newspaper is hoping to talk with you asap. Please respond with your daytime contact info by 5pm Eastern Tuesday, September 30 to jfallon@edmunds.com. Thanks!
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
I've had my Jeep Liberty for 4 months and I love it. Just one bad problem. It leaks water from the floor of the drivers and passengers seats. I know some others have posted on this same problem and I think I've discovered what the deal is with mine.. though not the exact location of the leak, yet. I took the car to the car wash 1 week after buying and noticed that the floor was wet along the door edge on both sides.. soaking wet. So I thought it might by that the windows were cracked or something. Then each car wash and rain after that, no problem.
Last week it rained so hard I ended up driving down a flooded street.. water splashing all under the vehicle.. next day, car was all damp and musty. ! That first car wash.. I did the Super-duper wash.. including undercarriage. Dang!
So off to the dealer I will go this week. I am so dreading this. Ugh!!! At least I think I can tell them how to search for the leak... start from beneath.
I bought a Liberty Sport one month ago & have about 1,200 miles on it. So far, no problems. It gets about 18mpg around town...no highway trips so far. I am going to install a K & N air filter on it today & see if that can increase the mpg...hopefully up to 20 mpg.
It has plenty of room for me, wife & 2 kids. Wife loves to drive it, kids love to ride in it.
It is very high off the ground, a fact that becomes very clear when I drive our Honda Civic.
Have not gone 4-wheeling off-road & don't plan to.
The only complaint so far, is that the power locks don't automatically unlock when the Jeep is shut off. It's a pain in the [non-permissible content removed] to have to hit the unlock button every time so my kid's can get out...I am hoping this can be fixed & the owner's manual tells how.
The only thing that the K&N filter will increase is the amount of crud your engine will ingest. Oh yes, it may kill your MAF sensor as well. K&N filters are simply not as effective as OEM filters. Believe me, if merely swapping filters would provide a 2 MPG increase DC would fit a K%N on everything they sell. Save your money; if you want a drop-in filter that provides good airflow as well as effective filtration I suggest that you check into ITG filters. They are excellent, but they won't give you 2 MPG either.
Jim Conforti(AKA Land Shark) develops high performance software and induction systems for late model BMWs. In addition to a trick E36 M3 Jim also owns a Wrangler Rubicon. Here are some of his JU comments regarding K&N:
versus a stock-sized K&N filter. Test was done by a reputable filter lab, using standardized test dust. Not anecdotal BS.
Read the title of this thread["K&N Filters are Crap"]... they are crap.
Now, let all the sniping and arguing begin..
...Suffice to say it amazes me that otherwise rational (and intelligent?) people put things that allow more dirt into their engine on their Jeep, and then proceed to drive OFF ROAD.
FWIW, after a bit of use, they also flow WORSE than paper filters. Which means that after a bit of use, your engine is putting out LESS HP due to increased pumping losses. Hey, but what do I know right.. I only do this for a living>
You can search the web and find dozens of K&N detractors and defenders, but you won't find any controlled test that proves that a drop-in filter can increase fuel economy. As for power, no drop-in filter has been shown to increase HP by more than one or two percent-tops. Cummins specifically advises AGAINST the use of K&N filters on their diesel engines. There are also numerous TSBs concerning the effect of over-oiled gauze filters on hot wire and hot film MAF sensors. I'll finish up with another Conforti excerpt, this one in response to some critcism of his prior post:
if you planned on putting more air into your engine, you also have to plan on letting more out with exhaust mods. if you want truly better mileage and tons better protection, switch to Mobil1 after your second oil change. your idle will switch to being so smooth you'll have to look at your tach to see if the powertech is even running. I use it and I found myself doing this when waiting for someone. Use the Mobil1 oil filter in conjunction with the oil and you can't beat it. I go 8000 miles between changes. Wal mart sells the oil now and it's not that expensive. good luck.
I run 10W-30 Mobil 1 in my Wrangler as well as their ATF in the transfer case and their gear oil in the diffs. I like the added protection and the ability to extend my (engine)oil drain intervals to 6000 miles. I use the Wix filter, but I'm sure that the Mobil 1 is an excellent choice as well. I can't say that I've seen any improvement in mileage, but IMHO Mobil 1 is still worth the added cost.
I just had the new Mopar accessory wheels installed on my wife's Liberty and they look great. With the excellent price I got from Steve White Jeep the total including shipping and installation at my local Jeep dealer was about $900 for five wheels.
Wow, FOUR mpg from an air filter change? You ought to put some Slick 50 in the crankcase and install that Vornado device; I'll bet you'd only have to stop for gas once or twice a year. Get serious; EVERY manufacturer would fit K&N filters across the board in a nanosecond if it meant they could bump their CAFE numbers up by even ONE mpg. And that was a pretty astute call on Jim C.- A "self proclaimed expert" you say? Check out a few of Conforti's accomplishments. Over the last decade he has 1. Cracked the Bosch Motronic code 2. Cracked the Siemens engine management code 3. Developed handheld OBD I AND OBD II fault code readers that retail for less than $150 4. Developed high performance EPROMS which develop from 11 to 48 RWHP, depending on application. And unlike his competitors, he modifies the part throttle map as well as the WOT map. 5. Developed the "Shark Injector"- a handheld OBD II ECU programmerwhich uploads the stock programming prior to downloading the performance software. This allows you to revert to stock calibration if necessary. Sorry, but I'll take objective dyno tests over SOTP guestimates every time.
The website offers glowing testimonials, as you would expect for any product. The K & N box admits that the filter will get dirty & that the dirt will help the filter work better. The box also says that you should clean & re-oil the filter at 50,000 miles. I see how dirty my paper filter was at 15,000 miles...hard to believe that you could go 50,000 miles between cleanings.
Also, the filter goes into a "box". In the old days, you could flip the air-cleaner cover & expose part of the filter for more air flow. I wonder if some of those testimonials had scrapped the "box" in favor of a direct flow filter.
In any event, I returned my K & N filters to the manufacturer. Their return policy was, if you use it, you bought it. Not willing to take the risk that the thing could not improve mpg.
You see a lot of aftermarket filter assemblies which feature a K&N cone filter. The problem is, most aren't shielded from underhood heat or supplied with cooler(denser) outside air. The result is often a net loss of power. And, as someone stated earlier, increasing intake airflow is of limited benefit if the exhaust system can't handle the increase volume of air. It's often difficult to improve on the factory setup. Not to say it can't be done, but the average Joe is unlikely to uncork any measurable power simply by sticking a cone filter on the end of the intake tubing. They make nice noises however, and many owners mistake the noise for hp. The butt dyno often falls prey to this.;)
Well, I certainly can't find fault with your deductive reasoning nor with your incisive analysis. Just keep on using those magic talismans and elixirs; if you're right you'll probably never need to buy another car again. OTOH, if J.C.'s objective testing and experience turn out to be correct the worst that will happen is that there will be one less Neon on the road. And that, as they say, would be A Good Thing. In any case, methinks it's time to take Dilbert's advice and quit this discussion. You enjoy your "domestic" sleds and I'll enjoy my German rides-one of which is a Jeep TJ(after all, it IS built by DAIMLER-Chrysler). Deutschland Uber Alles, y'all(as they say down at the South Carolina plant)!
The 2002 Liberty limited used the 45 RFE multi speed electronic automatic transmission.Sometimes referred to as a 5 speed automatic. The 2003 limited used this same transmission for units built thru February 2003, at which time the 2003's switched to the 42 RLE 4 speed automatic . The 2004's also use the 42 RLE transmission. Does anyone know why? How has the 42 RLE held up compared to the 45 RFE? The 45RFE is the transmission used since 1999 in the grand cherokee's.
all i know is that the 45RFE is the same one used in the rubicon when it first came out, and maybe still unless they've downgraded that thing too. it also powers the 4.7 liter GC's and dakota's. It is said to be much more stout than the current libby tranny. i have it in my pre-lowered '02 sport, and i couldn't be happier. i wouldn't take a new liberty over my original sport.
2003 Liberty Sport. It's a 3.7L Automatic that's getting about 17-18 mpg in mixed driving. I have not taken it on a trip as yet. It has about 2,200 miles on it after 6 weeks.
I went with the K & N to improve mpg...I am hoping to increase mpg from 18 to 20.
are you gonna do with the exhaust? you do realize that when you let more air into the engine, you have to let more air out? if you just drop in one of those k/n filters, you won't notice anything except a lot of dirt entering your engine. if you want improved mileage, put on some good exhaust components. that k/n filter will kill your engine with dirt. it has no filtering capabilities. better switch to mobil1 just in case. i use it with stock filter and i get 19-21 regularly. sad you fell into the hoopla of k/n filters. they really are junky and worthless.
Haven't you heard? Just adding what K&N generously calls a "filter" increases your fuel economy by AT LEAST 25%. I know it's the truth; I read it somewhere on the internet! Next I'm gonna put helium in my tires to reduce unsprung weight...;)
Next I'm gonna put helium in my tires to reduce unsprung weight...;)
I know you're just kidding but I thought you might find it interesting that (a) helium is pretty expensive and (b) being much smaller than air molecules helium atoms would tend to leak out of your tires very quickly making (a) even more of a concern!
I am on the verge of buying a new 03 Liberty Limited but after reading all these postings I am a little frightened about the reported transmission problems-should I go for the 04 or get an 03? I feel like I will get a better deal with an 03, but if I am purchasing a lemon, I don't want to go there. Maybe I should go back and revisit and Mazda Tribute or Ford Escape? I liked the Honda CRV, but want a V6 and those little toy wheels on the CRV make me wince-I have worked hard to save the dough, so I want to make a good decision-also should I fear a dealer installed sunroof or is that an ok thing...I know factory is preferred. Any help you can give is appreciated!
Buy the Mazda Tribute. It has a V-6, much better gas mileage that the Liberty, better warranty & Consumer Reports rates it well. I only bought my Liberty because I could not get the Mazda dealer to give me a decent trade in allowance. The Liberty is a pig on gas & if you don't need to go 4 wheeling off road, the Tribute should do fine.
Please let us know what you decide & what kind of deal that you got.
Rented an Escape from Enterprise recently while my Allroad was in for routine service. Couldn't wait to get that pig of a car back to Enterprise. It rattled and squeeked and was poorly constructed. This car only had 3000 miles on it!!! My Liberty has 26,000 and is solid as a rock except for a minor drivetrain vibration which has a known fix.
We've just started our second year with the Liberty. Still completely problem free and solid as a rock. Even the original equipment tires are holding up great. Much better than the pieces of crap our 94 Cherokee came with. Bad gas mileage? I guess. But if you're that concerned about mileage why are you shopping for an SUV anyway? That's why I have my Neon for commuting. A brand new Toyota pulled up next to me yesterday with the sticker in the window. That was rated at 16 city/19 highway. The Liberty doesn't seem so bad in comparison.
Thanks renegaded. Actually I was looking for a mini stereo jack I could plug in an iPod, or the Kenwood Music Keg. My Mercedes has a jack like that in the glove box, and it is very handy. I know you can use an FM input signal, but that tends to degrade the sound quality. I am getting ready to buy a Liberty (can't decide on Sport or Limited), so I haven't had the chance to look at it in detail. I really want to bring my MP3s along, and not on a CD.
I have close to the 3,000 mile mark on my new '03 Jeep--so far no problems I'm happy to say.Doing my 1st oil change this weekend and going full synthetic all the way.
Sounds like they wear away gradually and then fail suddenly, although some failed on new vehicles. Should be some more news in the coming days with hopefully better details. Here's another short Ledger story about it.
Comments
I may be purchasing a 2003 Jeep Liberty Sport in the next day or so. I think it has Goodyear tires on it now. Can I request that the dealer put BF Goodrich tires on it prior to taking delivery ?
The sales manager has called me a few times and keeps asking what it will take to close the sale. I would like a larger trade allowance & he knows that. We will likely arrive at a number that I can live with. As the month-end approaches I assume that the dealership & the salesman are anxious to close a sale on a 2003.
Any suggestions while negotiating ? Little known things that I should be asking for ?
Thanks in advance-
Steve, Host
The truck is very solid, feels great to drive. I looked at the Vue, which I liked but the Liberty is more substantial.
I look forward to owning this for a while, I like the 7/70 warranty on the power train.
Frank
My observations:
Solid feel when driving, heavy.
MPG on fist few fuel ups in the 17-18 range, around town driving.
Seems a little loud in the back, not sure if it is the exhaust, tires, differential.
Overall, a good ride.
The dealer has given me the run-around on Gap insurance. They said it is covered in my state and disclosed on the back of the contract. The finance company THINKS that is also correct, but I cannot find it on the back of the contract. The finance company will be able to discuss it further once they receive a copy of the contract.
Dealer tells me that it can take 2-3 weeks from the date that I pick up the car, until the date that the loan on my trade-in is paid off. Not sure I believe this, but I will follow up with the bank on both ends.
Dealer tried to sell me the usual extended warranty, rust-roofing, etc. but I passed.
Locked in 0% financing for 5 years.
WTOL
Steve, Host
Purchased a rear liner for the cargo area, I have one for my Concorde and it works very well.
Gas mileage is poor so far, but it is not near broken in.
Lots of compliments on the truck.
Frank
I own a 2003 Liberty Sport & am thinking about buying one of these devices to improve the MPG.
They offer a money back guarantee. Just wondering if anyone here has used it.
Colorado1974...where did you go ?
Gas mileage is poor, but the engine is just breaking in.
Only issue is a rough idle. I will allow more time to break in before I bring in for service.
The family love sit, my wife enjoys taking it for rides.
Frank
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
Last week it rained so hard I ended up driving down a flooded street.. water splashing all under the vehicle.. next day, car was all damp and musty. ! That first car wash.. I did the Super-duper wash.. including undercarriage. Dang!
So off to the dealer I will go this week. I am so dreading this. Ugh!!! At least I think I can tell them how to search for the leak... start from beneath.
Anyone else dealing with this problem? Thanks!
It has plenty of room for me, wife & 2 kids. Wife loves to drive it, kids love to ride in it.
It is very high off the ground, a fact that becomes very clear when I drive our Honda Civic.
Have not gone 4-wheeling off-road & don't plan to.
The only complaint so far, is that the power locks don't automatically unlock when the Jeep is shut off. It's a pain in the [non-permissible content removed] to have to hit the unlock button every time so my kid's can get out...I am hoping this can be fixed & the owner's manual tells how.
versus a stock-sized K&N filter. Test was done by a reputable filter lab, using standardized test dust. Not anecdotal BS.
Long story: (boring technical data)
http://www.bonnevillemotorwerks.com...e/KN/kntest.pdf
(which supports)
Short story:
Read the title of this thread["K&N Filters are Crap"]... they are crap.
Now, let all the sniping and arguing begin..
...Suffice to say it amazes me that otherwise rational (and intelligent?) people put things that allow more dirt into their engine on their Jeep, and then proceed to drive OFF ROAD.
FWIW, after a bit of use, they also flow WORSE than paper filters. Which means that after a bit of use, your engine is putting out LESS HP due to increased pumping losses. Hey, but what do I know right.. I only do this for a living>
You can search the web and find dozens of K&N detractors and defenders, but you won't find any controlled test that proves that a drop-in filter can increase fuel economy. As for power, no drop-in filter has been shown to increase HP by more than one or two percent-tops. Cummins specifically advises AGAINST the use of K&N filters on their diesel engines. There are also numerous TSBs concerning the effect of over-oiled gauze filters on hot wire and hot film MAF sensors. I'll finish up with another Conforti excerpt, this one in response to some critcism of his prior post:
Why is this important??
Well, let's take an offroad trip, side by side along the white rim trail.
Two vehicles.. side by side.. same dust.. same speed.. same rpms..etc.
One vehicle has the stock paper filter.. one has the K&N replacement.
Initially, the K&N will flow more air, have more power.. but as the trip continues, the K&N loads up quicker.. this is because the filter surface area is smaller.. so there will be more "grams per sq. inch" of dirt.
Now, because it's loading more quickly.. it loses flow more quickly.
This is actually IN the test data.. if you choose to READ it.
At the end of this mythical trip, the paper filtered vehicle has MORE power and has ingested LESS dust and dirt.
The difference isn't that hard to comprehend.. really it isn't.
>You said that from your testing you determined that the BMW filter was better than the K&N.<
Yes, for any vehicle which isn't torn down after races, and CERTAINLY
for any vehicle used OFF ROAD.
There are also OTHER types of filters that a better than an oiled-cotton
gauze filter.. not just factory paper filters.. there are multilayer oiled
reticulated foam filters..etc etc etc.
But I'm not here to say which other filters are better.. just to back up someones claims with some real scientific testing.
Hell, I didn't even DO the testing, I was just handed the data by the person who did.. with jaw agape.. as in "Well lookee here".
>If so they may want to see your data.<
They have.. no racer I work with uses them.
There are many reasons why, beyond what I'll go into here.>
Jim may sound cocky, but he KNOWS his stuff; I'll just pass on the K&N, thank you. FWIW, my 1999 Sahara had a K&N on it when I bought it. That night the K&N was in the trash and a new OEM filter was in its place.
www.bonnevillemotorwerks.com/dynocharts/intake/KN/kntest.pdf
It seems a bit flaky loadting sometimes so try pasting it into your browser address box if it doesn't work.
Steve, Host
steve_ "Isuzu Trooper" Oct 3, 2003 1:54pm
Steve, Host
And that was a pretty astute call on Jim C.- A "self proclaimed expert" you say? Check out a few of Conforti's accomplishments. Over the last decade he has
1. Cracked the Bosch Motronic code
2. Cracked the Siemens engine management code
3. Developed handheld OBD I AND OBD II fault code readers that retail for less than $150
4. Developed high performance EPROMS which develop from 11 to 48 RWHP, depending on application. And unlike his competitors, he modifies the part throttle map as well as the WOT map.
5. Developed the "Shark Injector"- a handheld OBD II ECU programmerwhich uploads the stock programming prior to downloading the performance software. This allows you to revert to stock calibration if necessary.
Sorry, but I'll take objective dyno tests over SOTP guestimates every time.
Also, the filter goes into a "box". In the old days, you could flip the air-cleaner cover & expose part of the filter for more air flow. I wonder if some of those testimonials had scrapped the "box" in favor of a direct flow filter.
In any event, I returned my K & N filters to the manufacturer. Their return policy was, if you use it, you bought it. Not willing to take the risk that the thing could not improve mpg.
Let's drop the cheap shots. That IS the proper spelling. No one here made it up.
tidester, host
http://www.bolhuijo.com/airflowtest/index.html
The 2003 limited used this same transmission for units built thru February 2003, at which time the 2003's switched to the 42 RLE 4 speed automatic . The 2004's also use the 42 RLE transmission.
Does anyone know why?
How has the 42 RLE held up compared to the 45 RFE?
The 45RFE is the transmission used since 1999 in the grand cherokee's.
I have not taken it on a trip as yet. It has about 2,200 miles on it after 6 weeks.
I went with the K & N to improve mpg...I am hoping to increase mpg from 18 to 20.
I know you're just kidding but I thought you might find it interesting that (a) helium is pretty expensive and (b) being much smaller than air molecules helium atoms would tend to leak out of your tires very quickly making (a) even more of a concern!
tidester, host
I only have 2,300 miles on the truck.
No plans on changing the exhaust.
I will look into synthetic oil at the 6,000 oil change.
Please let us know what you decide & what kind of deal that you got.
Nice solid truck, gas mileage is poor but seems to be getting better as it breaks in.
The idle seems a little rough, I will bring that up when the truck goes in Friday.
The family loves it, my son always wants to go out for rides. I see more and more on the street in the Boston area.
Frank
This thing is solid, no rattles squeaks or loose parts.
I do have to say the seat belts can get noise with that button that holds the latch up. 1 has already broken and needs to be replaced.
That is the only downside so far.
Frank
2 months 1000 miles is average for me. I only have to drive 2 miles to work.
I love how this truck is solid as a rock.
Frank
Steve, Host