:confuse: What did the wheel set have to do with the roll over? I am doing a 4" suspension lift this weekend. Using the same wheels with BFG M/T 285X16 and no spacers. Is this going to be an issue?
I've no idea what caused that particular accident, but in general terms, the more offset you have the wider the track becomes, and the wider the track the more stable the vehicle will be under a sideways force, either centrifugal or linear (cornering or side-slope). However, this doesn't mean that there's no penalty for excessive offset.
You might find your Canyons a little loose inside the 16" BFG M/Ts..........Canyons are a 15" rim! :shades:
Go ahead and make your remark. I've heard a few so far
I know this doesn't have much to do with the tires, but he said nice looking Jeep and I made the comment about it NOT being so nice right now. Oh well.
But basically here's what happened:
I was going up the hill (can't really see it there) and I got off camber to the right. So I stopped and assessed. Jeep ahead of me got through with no problems, but the jeep was not as lifted (2" BB vs my 3" susp + 1.25" BL). I thought I should get a spotter, but went against my instinct and went. Right front tire dipped down and over I went.
I got extracted by attaching a winch line 90 degrees to my driver side to my rocker and winching it back over.
You can see the winch line as it is being pulled back upright.
The wheels had nothing to do with it other than the fact the front passenger side dipped too low when I was already off camber by about 20 degrees. My tires already sit me pretty wide, and the Jeep is normally quite stable, so that should give you an idea of how far over I was leaning.
You can see the little part that got my tire in THIS pic.
This was after they got me back on all 4's, but still had a winch cable on my driver side to keep me from going back over. Without the winch cable on, I would have been leaning more.
All that said, they then attached a second winch cable to the front of my Jeep and pulled me through to a slightly flatter spot just ahead of where I flopped. I then fired the Jeep up and drove it up the trail the rest of the way and then back into town, where I had it flatbedded 80 miles back home.
I've done the repairs by myself. So far I've bought: - windshield frame from a junkyard - matching color - installed myself - 175 - windshield - 175 installed - cowling from a junkyard - from a 97 - matching color - 30
I've spent 380 to get it fixed so far and I've got a line on a hood from a 97 with my paint color for about 200, but I have to drive to get it. May be worth it.
I only need to get a bend fixed right where the passenger side hood hinge sits. $50.00 or so to fix that.
That tree root really got in the way, but the tree being there probably kept me from rolling over any further. You can see it to the right of the tree in the above pic.
Here's a pic of the matching windshield frame and glass installed (the replacement cowling is NOT installed yet).
I still need a few small things like hood catches for the passenger side, but I did have a spare soft top frame that I've since put on. My old one was already bent a bit and the one I have put on makes the top tighter than it was before. I had gotten the spare frame/top/door surrounds for 250 from somebody I knew here that was cleaning out their attic. Gotta love spares!
The fender was already bent last year from a renegade tree jumping out in front of me, and I've bent it back to about what it was before the flop. Some touch up paint is needed. Flat fenders would be nice, but are not in my budget (or more accurately, my wife's).
As mentioned, the wheel set had nothing to do with it. 16" tires will not fit Canyons as they are 15's like Mac said.
I just got in over my head and I knew it. Instead of stopping, reassessing the situation a few times, and asking for a spotter to confirm what was on that side, I went against my instinct/judgment and went ahead. The one time I second guessed myself, I screwed up. Plain and simple, this was a driver error situation. My Jeep performed flawlessly, but not even a properly setup Jeep can defy the laws of physics.
I've been at a funky angle before -
- and nothing bad happened. I was stock height with Canyon's on 30's with no spacers at that point. You'd think with narrower offset, I'd roll, but I didn't. My COG was lower.
COG in relation to your wheel stance is what will determine if you roll. Okay, that's not entirely accurate. Your COG in relation to your wheel stance and terrain, current camber, momentum, etc will determine if you roll.
In that above pic, the ground didn't have lots of places for me to 'drop' over into and if I did, I'd be leaning against a tree that is 2" from my top. No biggie. My actual roll had a drop off that was even more than the off camber situation I was already in.
I have wheeled in this configuration a couple of times previously to this flop. Neither time was an issue.
A 4" lift with 33" BFG MT's will be a good setup. Just realize that you COG is significantly higher and you DO stand a better chance of flopping it the higher you go.
It's a little unfair that such a small mistake cost you so dearly, but you certainly got lucky in getting color matched panels. I'd go for the hood too if you can get it.
Oh, I KNOW you gotta pay to play. Wife has reminded me multiple times the last few weeks. But I'm trying to do it affordably as I can. If I had done dealer or body shop stuff for this, I'd be well over $1000 by now and probably closer to 2000. Factor in the hood replacement and I'd probably be even higher still.
The color-matched stuff was a stroke of good luck, but my shade of green PGF for that year seems to be pretty popular for 97's and 98's, so there is hope.
Still runs good and no mechanical issues from the flop, so I'm fortunate there. Where armored, it did just as it should. But finding armor for windshield frames, short of tying it in to a full cage to stop the tweaking is a bit tougher.
Yes, although there are several internal cage solutions available, they won't protect the windshield frame from cosmetic damage. Need external protection for that, à la L/R Defender.
I would like to rotate wheels on both my 2005 Wrangler Unlimited and my wife's 2005 Liberty (4WD) without relying on a dealer or tire shop. Both vehicles have stock suspension and wheels/tires. This weekend, I'd like to buy a jack and 4 stands with the right dimensions and capacity.
What weight capacity should I buy for the jack and stands and stand height?
I've read suggestions about safety concerns including level paved area, using parking brake, transmission in park, wheel chocks, gently lowering the vehicle down onto the stands, and making sure the vehicle is stable once up on jack stands. However, I'd like to better understand the placement of the jack on the underside of the vehicles for lifting and the best placement of the jack stands for supporting the vehicle.
Under the Wrangler, where's the right place to place the jack for lifting the front and the rear of the vehicle? What parts of the underside on the front and rear of the vehicle should the weight be carried on the jack stands? I'm thinking the differentials can be used for lifting and the jack stands may support the axles directly but I'd really like to check before causing serious damage for something as simple as a DIY wheel rotation.
Will the jack and jack stand placement be different for the Liberty because I think it has an independent front suspension?
I realize some (including myself :P ) are thinking "if he has to ask such a basic question, he has no business doing it himself". I'd like to start doing more on my own Jeeps since as the old adage goes, "no one cares more about your own Jeeps than you" (well, maybe the adage doesn't specifically state Jeeps but we know that's what they meant to say ). I know I won't find a better group of folks to ask the right way to care for our Jeeps...Forgive me for being so naive to basic vehicle DIY...I have to start somewhere, right?
Hi Paul - Just getting caught up on past posts and ran across your photos...Thanks for having the courage to share your carnage and insights on it as well as the hard work you've invested to wipe away the damage to Kermit...Looking good, again!
Jim, While I'm no pro, I do rotate my own tires on my Unlimited. Since a Wrangler Unlimited only weighs about 3500 lbs, even the lightest capacity jack stands that I have seen at the stores (2 1/4 tons) would suffice. I have the stock 30x9.5 tires and my 2 1/4 ton jack stands reach sufficient height for these wheels. I also went cheap and got a 2 1/4 ton floor jack and while this works, a higher capacity would make me happier. On the front axle I typically place the jack under the front differential for the driver's side lift. Since the front differential is not centered it is difficult to lift the driver's side on the axle and still have enough space to get the jack stand under the axle. I always place the jack stands under the axle as close to the wheel as I can get it. After lifting the front driver's side, I move the jack to the front passenger side axle and lift it for the passenger side stand. While I have seen some lift the entire rear axle by the centered rear differential, I lift each side separately with the jack on the axle while leaving sufficient space between the jack and the wheel to allow placement of the jack stand near the end of the axle. Go slowly and be careful, following all of the precautions that you mentioned in your original post.
Hi everyone. I have a 2003 Wrangler and am thinking about towing it on some family trips behind a 2005 Grand Cherokee with 5.7 Hemi engine. I am wondering what is the best thing to get; 1- a tow bar for the Wrangler, or 2- a trailer / dolly to tow the jeep on.
While I am not that concerned about adding mileage to the Wrangler, if I could find a trailer of some type, it might be better.
Any one have any ideas that you could share? I know (or think, at least) that if I tow it on a dolly lifting the front wheels, the spinning rear wheels will run the speedometer and odometer. Am I correct about that?
Any suggestions would be appreciated! Thanks - Chuck
Thanks for the pointers, Dennis...I really appreciate it. Do you have any suggestions for my wife's Liberty which has independent front suspension? I'm thinking I could use your same technique but I'll have to see what sort of front axle length on each side of the differential is under her Liberty.
Appreciate the kind words everybody. I wasn't trying to get sympathy, but want people to understand something that is VERY easy to overlook - modifying a Jeep WILL change its handling characteristics. Lifting it will change the COG. Widening the stance changes the COG. You have to drive it with those considerations in mind and realize just because a Jeep you are following did something, it doesn't mean YOU can, especially if your mods are different.
For 380, I've come a long way, but the hood is the one that will take some work since part of the firewall/hood mount is bent. I have found some hoods that match my body's color, but I may have to drive to pick em up. No biggie.
Even if you don't think you ever will flop it, consider safety. A never thought I'd flop, so I never got a cage. It is now on my hot list of things to do if/when I ever get approval. I think I can make it happen.
I took my Jeep for a short drive yesterday. Turning over was tough, but the engine caught and ran. Idle was rather low and I had to give it gas to keep from dying. I drove it on Thursday as well for some body shop estimates. It was hard to start then as well, but ran just fine at idle and at speed. After driving for a few minutes, subsequent starts worked just fine and it fired right up.
I replaced the TPS at Windrock after it threw codes and died at 45 mph on the main road. After replacing the TPS, it ran fine at both speed and idle.
After the flop a few weeks ago, it ran fine too, but it has been sitting for a while in my driveway and not driven much. I wonder what would cause the hard to start situation and the low idle.
I'm thinking my battery is not keeping a charge possibly due to low fluid after the flop. I think the alternator is doing its job to charge it, but with low fluid in the battery, it doesn't charge it much?
Here are my questions: 1. Would a bad battery or one low on fluid cause the hard to start? 2. Would a bad battery cause rough/low idle? 3. Can I adjust a TJ's idle? 4. Has anybody used NAPA's gel batteries and how do they compare to Optima?
Question about your lift....I'm considering the same OME lift for my '04 Sahara. I see that you ended up with 3.25" before the body lift...is that correct? If so, would that give me enough clearance to upgrade from my current 31" tires to 32's without doing the bodylift. I've been concerned about pulling the trigger due to the advertised lift results being only 2-2.5" & they recommend 31" tires.
I want to do something soon. My new jeeperman front bumper and winch addition have created a slight sag in the front.
Maybe I am missing something, but I don't see the need for four jack stands (or any for that matter). I normally will take off the first tire, replace it with the spare (or you could use a stand here), move to where it goes and replace that tire, and so on. Is there a specific need to raise the entire jeep at once?
It'll be close. Keep in mind, I have the lighter 2.5 engine and a soft top and that kinda explains why I got a bit more. Even DPGOffroad, where I got the lift, recommends the BL/MML for 32's and 33's.
With my Jeeperman front and 9.5ti, I added .75" spacers to level everything up.
Makes sense. I hadn't thought about the extra weight of my 4.0 engine compared to your 2.5. I also have the hard top although I only use about 3 or 4 months out of the year. I guess I may ultimately need to go with 33's. I really want the OME setup & I was thinking of going with 32's but if I need the BL/MML 32's may look goofy with that much height.
Have you had any issues with your wheel spacers? I have the Ravine wheels and that's my other dilemma...spacers or new wheels?
Here are my questions: 1. Would a bad battery or one low on fluid cause the hard to start? 2. Would a bad battery cause rough/low idle? 3. Can I adjust a TJ's idle? 4. Has anybody used NAPA's gel batteries and how do they compare to Optima?
1: Yes
2: Possibly
3: Not without a DRBIII scan tool
4: Pass
If you've had battery acid splashing around the engine compartment you need to give it a good wash down with water, followed by baking soda solution.
I've come across several instances where a flat battery followed by a jump start has left a Jeep with idle problems as the alternator struggled to recharge the battery while maintaining full voltage. Leave the battery disconnected for at least five minutes, then replace with a fully charged one and all should be well.
Mac, your answers kinda lined up with what I've been experiencing. I tried to jump it yesterday after filling the cells (they were pretty dry). It ran fine and idled fine so I let it run by itself for a little while (probably not long enough).
The outer part of the battery WAS wet so I guess I did lose fluid in my flop, but I didn't see any other indicators of acid on the paint or battery tray.
I tried to start it later last night and it would not even turn over. SO, I think the battery itself may be the problem, but I need a longer drive in the Jeep for the alternator to charge the battery up. THEN I'll let it sit for a day and see if it will start as easily.
I'm hoping the battery just won't keep the charge any more (I've worn it down a few times previously too) and I can drop in an Optima or Exide Orbital. I sure hope it isn't the alternator.
After that, I can see if it idles rough and address the other issues, if any.
Chad, you'll have no regrets with the 32's and the OME with BL/MML. They may look a LITTLE bit small, but with Mud Terrains, they'll look aggressive enough w/o looking small.
The spidertrax spacers have been flawless and I've done a bit of hard wheeling since putting them on.
I'm hoping the battery just won't keep the charge any more (I've worn it down a few times previously too).......
Even if it does recover this time it will be close to the end of its life by now. Every time you fully discharge a regular 'wet' battery you considerably shorten its lifespan. Even deep cycle ones should never be discharged below 50% of their capacity (10.5v) if they are to maintain their designed cycle life.
Changed mine on my 95 last year. You have to drop the windshield by removing the roll cage bolts at the top of the windshield frame and the bracket bolts at the base of the windsheild frame (on the inside of the vehicle). It helps if you have been drenching the windshield frame hinges with PBBlaster etc. for a few weeks. Don't know if it helped me or not, but my frame lowered without any resistance.
Make sure you do a good job of removing the old cowl seal and any sealant residue. Pay attention to where the sealant residue is located as I believe new adhesive/sealant is to be placed on only either the top or bottom of the new seal. Take your time and buy a good quality weatherstripping adhesive/sealant.
Reassemble in the reverse order being careful of the wiper motor and wiring.
i just put on 31x10.50--15 tires and they rub when truning all the way---i am thinking of getting spacers, but how much, and later i want to move up to a 32x11.50--15, so what size spacer should i get now? can i add on a spacer later or do i need to buy a new one? is a spacer some thing that i can put on by taking off the tire? any help would be great
If you just have a little rub at full turn, you can get by with just adjusting the steering stops. You can see how at http://www.4x4xplor.com/steerstop.html
If you want spacers, I'd ONLY use Spidertrax 1.25" spacers. They attach to the hub of the Jeep and have their own studs, to which the wheel attaches.
I have them on my 33" tires with the stock Canyon wheels. I still get a bit of rub at full turn, but I rarely do that and if/when I do, I am already going VERY VERY slow.
First of all, Paul I was sorry to see the report of your flop. I almost went over recently and that has be be a sick feeling.
After some great advice from Mac, I have simplified my 5 tire rotation drill. I use a good size floor jack, 2 stout jack stands and 1 small one. I lift the entire rear with the jack centered under the pumpkin and support each side with a "big" jack stand. Then I lift each front corner individually and support with a "little" jack stand (little one is easier to place/move) while I change that corner. I rotate in the spare of course. I find that this takes me about 1/2 the time of doing one corner at a time. So, now I usually pressure wash the wheel wells, calibers and back of my wheels while the their off and the whole process probably takes me twice as long as before
Can anyone give feed back on this lift. Looking at 4" suspension lift. Installed yesterday. 285x75x16 BFG's on stock Rubicon wheels. Used as a daily driver nothing hardcore offroad. Jeep trails (that's what we call them here in Texas) usually a dirt road with some ruts.
">link titleHi everybody, I bought my Jeep today, YES !!!!
After 3 months looking for the right one, I found it (had to drive more than 300 miles to get it, but it was worth). It's a white '97 Sahara with 84,000 miles, automatic. I'm the 3rd owner. I drove back today and just got back home. Great car ! I was looking for a 5 speed, but after driving an auto, I really liked it. 17.5 mpg on the trip, driving at 70 mph, really windy. I bet I will have several questions from now on. Do you know how to post pics ?
Congrats on the new Sahara! - pic posting instructions are in the Help link at the bottom, but a better option is to set up a new Jeep album on your CarSpace page. There are ready links there to help you post the pics in here or link to them.
OK, the same old question, what kind of oil are you using on your Jeep ? Mobil 1 ? Castrol ? How many miles ? 3,000 ? Suggestions? As I said, I bought mine with 84,000 miles, 4.0 liter and hope it will last forever (or close to that).
Just thought I would share with my buds in here that Thelma Jane has a new lift, and it's an Old Man Emu 2" lift.
I am still operating under the philosophy that I should stay as close to stock as possible, while adding mods that help me get around Turkey Bay. I don't need 6" of lift and 35" tires to do the obstacles I like to do there, and that is where 95% or more of my wheelin' is done.
I may never go any bigger than 31" tires, and that OME lift is plenty for that size tire. Yes, you can put 31's on a TJ with no lift at all, but the lift gives some room for axle travel, especially when the front sway bar is diconnected.
I had a 2" Procomp lift on Thelma Jane, but the springs had settled to the point that I really had almost no lift at all. Those springs had been on her for four years, and they had been used on two other Jeeps before I got them.
There are very few products that a person hears only good things about, without a single "bad review." Old Man Emu lift kits for TJ's is one of those products. I have not heard the first negative comment about them, but I have heard people simply rave about how good they are.
So, now that I have an OME lift, am I raving? YES! Those springs and shocks give Thelma Jane tremendous ride and handling characteristics. I'm getting a nice firm ride for handling, but, at the same time, it's a smooth ride.
All I can say is that the people who have been saying such great things about the Old Man Emu 2" lift kits for TJ's have NOT been exaggerating. The kit is all I hoped it would be and more. I highly recommend the OME for people who need only two to three inches of lift. That's right, people often get up to 3" inches of actual lift with the 2" kit. I think I must have gotten close to that with my kit.
Tomster Have you hugged your Jeep today?
P.S. OME kits are rated Light, Medium, and Heavy Duty. To get the maximum ride height, go with the HD kit. If you have a hardtop and/or a winch, then you definitely want the HD version.
I totally agree. I've never regretted fitting my OME lift. Not too big, not to small, it was developed to allow full articulation with 31s, while giving a much better than stock ride when travelling on rutted tracks at speed.
Assuming it's been well serviced and maintained in the past, you can expect another 100k or so before any kind of major overhaul is needed, given continued maintenance and a little luck of course.
Synthetic oil won't buy you much at this point, unless you live somewhere like Alaska, where its low temperature viscosity will be a big plus. In fact, you may well get problems with leaking seals unless it was previously running on synthetic for the last 84k.
Personally, I use the same brand (any that meets the spec will do) all the time, and change it together with a new filter every 3k.
You might also want to change all the fluids at this time, which will (a): give you a baseline for future service and maintenance, and (b): be a good thing anyway!
my friend has a 1989 wrangler that he just rebuilt the engine- blown head gasket. he needs the schematics for the vacuum hoses. and any other service manual freebies we can find. jeep is running rough much like a vacuum hose not connected to the right port or one sucking air( my opinion- blond and a girl- what does she know- hehe!) seriously- he is going to try my suggestion of wd-40 to see if we can find it. any suggestions are appreciated! 1989,v-6,
oops- inline 6? remember I'm blond- thats my story and I'm stickin' to it!!! hehe! I even pondered the thought that since this has been sitting up since early 2004 that the vacuum lines might just be rotten- he bought this out of someones pasture for $800.00. It has the hardtop,bimini top and the softtop. all in excellent condition- not a tear or rip or scuff on the seats or floorboard- how lucky can one guy get? we are going to try the wd-40 trick. and putting two more sets of eyes- maybe he just forgot to hook one up- next thing I thought about was...did they have an O2 sensor- they cause so many problems. or even donut gasket will make for havoc.
Certainly sounds like a deal. Do a good check for rust problems though, as a vehicle sitting on grass for any length of time will get very damp underneath.
Don't know about the O² sensor, but I doubt it as that year uses a carb. Won't take you long to look and see though.
As he's working without a manual, you might want to check that the head was torqued down to the correct values and in the correct sequence. Did he have it checked for flatness while it was off?
I know that I pretty much checked out on you guys the last several months, but I didn't forget you.
I lost much of my enthusiasm for Jeeps and for " wheelin' " for a while, but it's sort of coming back now. As you who have been around here for a while know, I lost my best friend of the four-legged persuasion a year ago almost to the day. On September 19th last year, I had to have my best Jeepin' Buddy, Ross Allen, put to sleep.
He was with me the very first time that I ever went wheelin', and he went with me every time I ever went to Turkey Bay, except the time my boss and his two sons went, and I had to put the back seat back in. It broke my heart and his as well to leave him home that day.
I still had good friends out there on the trails, and I didn't stop wheelin', but it was just not the same without my Puppy there with me. Spending the entire day with him was one of the very best things about wheelin'; it was something I so closely identified with Ross Allen that it was almost impossible to keep going after losing him.
I now have Hank to go with me, and he loves it. He is making me a really good Jeep Buddy, and I think old Ross Allen must have had something to do with my finding Hank.
I had just started to recover from losing Ross Allen, and next thing I knew, one of my very best human friends, Gill Blue, the owner of a Jeep website that I hang out in all the time, found out that he had cancer. That was in early April this year, and Gill died on August 31st, three and a half weeks ago.
I have lost two Jeep Buddies that I loved dearly. This world can be such a sad place sometimes, can't it?
Dog lovers will probably enjoy the website that I made to honor my Rossie Pup, but it will almost certainly evoke some tears.
Hopefully, I am back now. I might not post with anything like the frequency that I used to, but I'll be around a lot more now than I have been for the last several months.
I've run my 1999 Sahara on Mobil 1 10W30 since I bought it with 36K on the clock. I change the oil at 7.5K intervals using a Mobil 1 filter. It now has over 95K, uses no oil between changes, and runs like a scalded cat. If you go with a non synthetic I'd follow Mac's advice- use any SL/SM rated oil of the proper viscosity and change it at 3K-5K intervals. I also second Mac's idea to change all the fluids while you are at it. Again, I use Mobil 1 lubricants and change them at 60K intervals.
Tom, I have watched both here and at Gill's over the last year how you've been doing. I know Deb and I have been worried about you and how you've been doing.
I will personally say that it is mainly your advice and meeting you in March of 04 and riding with you at TB that led me to making Kermit my own and building him up so I could wheel with you and the IAJ group.
The pain you've been going through has been tremendous and I've never doubted or questioned the reasons you've slowed down from the 'net. I understood and still do.
I appreciate that you called and asked me questions about the OME stuff and it brought a smile to my face knowing that the guy who essentially got me into wheeling called and asked me advice/questions about the lift I've been using.
Glad you love the OME lift, as I knew you would. I hope to see you on the trails at TB sometime. Just let me ride behind you until I get used to wheeling Kermit again after my flop.
You have a lot of friends here and on the IAJ site. We are always here for you and VERY happy to see you posting and working on Thelma Jane again!
After driving Kermit for the first time in a long while, I noticed how loose my steering is. Quite a bit of play. Where should I look to tighten and/or replace to regain the better response?
My initial thoughts were the tie rod ends. If they are priced high enough, I'd probably opt for the ZJ V8 tie rod upgrade and put a beefier tie rod in at the same time. But I'm not sure what else I should look at.
With the engine running and the vehicle on a high traction surface, like dry concrete or asphalt, have them slowly rotate the steering wheel 90º one way, then back to center, then 90º the other way, then continue as necessary.
You should be laying at the front end and looking carefully at each steering joint and connection in turn. Start at the steering box and work outwards each side to the tie rod ends. Any excess movement will be clear, but what you're feeling may be made up of an accumulation of wear in several joints.
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tidester, host
You might find your Canyons a little loose inside the 16" BFG M/Ts..........Canyons are a 15" rim! :shades:
I know this doesn't have much to do with the tires, but he said nice looking Jeep and I made the comment about it NOT being so nice right now. Oh well.
But basically here's what happened:
I was going up the hill (can't really see it there) and I got off camber to the right. So I stopped and assessed. Jeep ahead of me got through with no problems, but the jeep was not as lifted (2" BB vs my 3" susp + 1.25" BL). I thought I should get a spotter, but went against my instinct and went. Right front tire dipped down and over I went.
I got extracted by attaching a winch line 90 degrees to my driver side to my rocker and winching it back over.
You can see the winch line as it is being pulled back upright.
The wheels had nothing to do with it other than the fact the front passenger side dipped too low when I was already off camber by about 20 degrees. My tires already sit me pretty wide, and the Jeep is normally quite stable, so that should give you an idea of how far over I was leaning.
You can see the little part that got my tire in THIS pic.
This was after they got me back on all 4's, but still had a winch cable on my driver side to keep me from going back over. Without the winch cable on, I would have been leaning more.
All that said, they then attached a second winch cable to the front of my Jeep and pulled me through to a slightly flatter spot just ahead of where I flopped. I then fired the Jeep up and drove it up the trail the rest of the way and then back into town, where I had it flatbedded 80 miles back home.
I've done the repairs by myself. So far I've bought:
- windshield frame from a junkyard - matching color - installed myself - 175
- windshield - 175 installed
- cowling from a junkyard - from a 97 - matching color - 30
I've spent 380 to get it fixed so far and I've got a line on a hood from a 97 with my paint color for about 200, but I have to drive to get it. May be worth it.
I only need to get a bend fixed right where the passenger side hood hinge sits. $50.00 or so to fix that.
That tree root really got in the way, but the tree being there probably kept me from rolling over any further. You can see it to the right of the tree in the above pic.
Here's a pic of the matching windshield frame and glass installed (the replacement cowling is NOT installed yet).
I still need a few small things like hood catches for the passenger side, but I did have a spare soft top frame that I've since put on. My old one was already bent a bit and the one I have put on makes the top tighter than it was before. I had gotten the spare frame/top/door surrounds for 250 from somebody I knew here that was cleaning out their attic. Gotta love spares!
The fender was already bent last year from a renegade tree jumping out in front of me, and I've bent it back to about what it was before the flop. Some touch up paint is needed. Flat fenders would be nice, but are not in my budget (or more accurately, my wife's).
-Paul
I just got in over my head and I knew it. Instead of stopping, reassessing the situation a few times, and asking for a spotter to confirm what was on that side, I went against my instinct/judgment and went ahead. The one time I second guessed myself, I screwed up. Plain and simple, this was a driver error situation. My Jeep performed flawlessly, but not even a properly setup Jeep can defy the laws of physics.
I've been at a funky angle before -
- and nothing bad happened. I was stock height with Canyon's on 30's with no spacers at that point. You'd think with narrower offset, I'd roll, but I didn't. My COG was lower.
COG in relation to your wheel stance is what will determine if you roll. Okay, that's not entirely accurate. Your COG in relation to your wheel stance and terrain, current camber, momentum, etc will determine if you roll.
In that above pic, the ground didn't have lots of places for me to 'drop' over into and if I did, I'd be leaning against a tree that is 2" from my top. No biggie. My actual roll had a drop off that was even more than the off camber situation I was already in.
I have wheeled in this configuration a couple of times previously to this flop. Neither time was an issue.
A 4" lift with 33" BFG MT's will be a good setup. Just realize that you COG is significantly higher and you DO stand a better chance of flopping it the higher you go.
-Paul
Unfortunately, you sometimes have to pay to play.
The color-matched stuff was a stroke of good luck, but my shade of green PGF for that year seems to be pretty popular for 97's and 98's, so there is hope.
Still runs good and no mechanical issues from the flop, so I'm fortunate there. Where armored, it did just as it should. But finding armor for windshield frames, short of tying it in to a full cage to stop the tweaking is a bit tougher.
-Paul
Any one knows about whether the newer Ravine wheel has the same BS of 5.5"?
What weight capacity should I buy for the jack and stands and stand height?
I've read suggestions about safety concerns including level paved area, using parking brake, transmission in park, wheel chocks, gently lowering the vehicle down onto the stands, and making sure the vehicle is stable once up on jack stands. However, I'd like to better understand the placement of the jack on the underside of the vehicles for lifting and the best placement of the jack stands for supporting the vehicle.
Under the Wrangler, where's the right place to place the jack for lifting the front and the rear of the vehicle? What parts of the underside on the front and rear of the vehicle should the weight be carried on the jack stands? I'm thinking the differentials can be used for lifting and the jack stands may support the axles directly but I'd really like to check before causing serious damage for something as simple as a DIY wheel rotation.
Will the jack and jack stand placement be different for the Liberty because I think it has an independent front suspension?
I realize some (including myself :P ) are thinking "if he has to ask such a basic question, he has no business doing it himself". I'd like to start doing more on my own Jeeps since as the old adage goes, "no one cares more about your own Jeeps than you" (well, maybe the adage doesn't specifically state Jeeps but we know that's what they meant to say
While I'm no pro, I do rotate my own tires on my Unlimited. Since a Wrangler Unlimited only weighs about 3500 lbs, even the lightest capacity jack stands that I have seen at the stores (2 1/4 tons) would suffice. I have the stock 30x9.5 tires and my 2 1/4 ton jack stands reach sufficient height for these wheels. I also went cheap and got a 2 1/4 ton floor jack and while this works, a higher capacity would make me happier. On the front axle I typically place the jack under the front differential for the driver's side lift. Since the front differential is not centered it is difficult to lift the driver's side on the axle and still have enough space to get the jack stand under the axle. I always place the jack stands under the axle as close to the wheel as I can get it. After lifting the front driver's side, I move the jack to the front passenger side axle and lift it for the passenger side stand. While I have seen some lift the entire rear axle by the centered rear differential, I lift each side separately with the jack on the axle while leaving sufficient space between the jack and the wheel to allow placement of the jack stand near the end of the axle. Go slowly and be careful, following all of the precautions that you mentioned in your original post.
Dennis
While I am not that concerned about adding mileage to the Wrangler, if I could find a trailer of some type, it might be better.
Any one have any ideas that you could share? I know (or think, at least) that if I tow it on a dolly lifting the front wheels, the spinning rear wheels will run the speedometer and odometer. Am I correct about that?
Any suggestions would be appreciated!
Thanks - Chuck
-Paul
For 380, I've come a long way, but the hood is the one that will take some work since part of the firewall/hood mount is bent. I have found some hoods that match my body's color, but I may have to drive to pick em up. No biggie.
Even if you don't think you ever will flop it, consider safety. A never thought I'd flop, so I never got a cage. It is now on my hot list of things to do if/when I ever get approval. I think I can make it happen.
-Paul
I replaced the TPS at Windrock after it threw codes and died at 45 mph on the main road. After replacing the TPS, it ran fine at both speed and idle.
After the flop a few weeks ago, it ran fine too, but it has been sitting for a while in my driveway and not driven much. I wonder what would cause the hard to start situation and the low idle.
I'm thinking my battery is not keeping a charge possibly due to low fluid after the flop. I think the alternator is doing its job to charge it, but with low fluid in the battery, it doesn't charge it much?
Here are my questions:
1. Would a bad battery or one low on fluid cause the hard to start?
2. Would a bad battery cause rough/low idle?
3. Can I adjust a TJ's idle?
4. Has anybody used NAPA's gel batteries and how do they compare to Optima?
Mac, any ideas?
-Paul
Question about your lift....I'm considering the same OME lift for my '04 Sahara. I see that you ended up with 3.25" before the body lift...is that correct? If so, would that give me enough clearance to upgrade from my current 31" tires to 32's without doing the bodylift. I've been concerned about pulling the trigger due to the advertised lift results being only 2-2.5" & they recommend 31" tires.
I want to do something soon. My new jeeperman front bumper and winch addition have created a slight sag in the front.
Your input is appreciated.
Chad
With my Jeeperman front and 9.5ti, I added .75" spacers to level everything up.
-Paul
Have you had any issues with your wheel spacers? I have the Ravine wheels and that's my other dilemma...spacers or new wheels?
Chad
1. Would a bad battery or one low on fluid cause the hard to start?
2. Would a bad battery cause rough/low idle?
3. Can I adjust a TJ's idle?
4. Has anybody used NAPA's gel batteries and how do they compare to Optima?
1: Yes
2: Possibly
3: Not without a DRBIII scan tool
4: Pass
If you've had battery acid splashing around the engine compartment you need to give it a good wash down with water, followed by baking soda solution.
I've come across several instances where a flat battery followed by a jump start has left a Jeep with idle problems as the alternator struggled to recharge the battery while maintaining full voltage. Leave the battery disconnected for at least five minutes, then replace with a fully charged one and all should be well.
Go 50/50 on a pair of stands with a buddy for an economical solution.
The outer part of the battery WAS wet so I guess I did lose fluid in my flop, but I didn't see any other indicators of acid on the paint or battery tray.
I tried to start it later last night and it would not even turn over. SO, I think the battery itself may be the problem, but I need a longer drive in the Jeep for the alternator to charge the battery up. THEN I'll let it sit for a day and see if it will start as easily.
I'm hoping the battery just won't keep the charge any more (I've worn it down a few times previously too) and I can drop in an Optima or Exide Orbital. I sure hope it isn't the alternator.
After that, I can see if it idles rough and address the other issues, if any.
-Paul
The spidertrax spacers have been flawless and I've done a bit of hard wheeling since putting them on.
-Paul
Even if it does recover this time it will be close to the end of its life by now. Every time you fully discharge a regular 'wet' battery you considerably shorten its lifespan. Even deep cycle ones should never be discharged below 50% of their capacity (10.5v) if they are to maintain their designed cycle life.
Make sure you do a good job of removing the old cowl seal and any sealant residue. Pay attention to where the sealant residue is located as I believe new adhesive/sealant is to be placed on only either the top or bottom of the new seal. Take your time and buy a good quality weatherstripping adhesive/sealant.
Reassemble in the reverse order being careful of the wiper motor and wiring.
I may have left something out. Shout back if so.
If you want spacers, I'd ONLY use Spidertrax 1.25" spacers. They attach to the hub of the Jeep and have their own studs, to which the wheel attaches.
I have them on my 33" tires with the stock Canyon wheels. I still get a bit of rub at full turn, but I rarely do that and if/when I do, I am already going VERY VERY slow.
-Paul
After some great advice from Mac, I have simplified my 5 tire rotation drill. I use a good size floor jack, 2 stout jack stands and 1 small one. I lift the entire rear with the jack centered under the pumpkin and support each side with a "big" jack stand. Then I lift each front corner individually and support with a "little" jack stand (little one is easier to place/move) while I change that corner. I rotate in the spare of course. I find that this takes me about 1/2 the time of doing one corner at a time. So, now I usually pressure wash the wheel wells, calibers and back of my wheels while the their off and the whole process probably takes me twice as long as before
Thanks
After 3 months looking for the right one, I found it (had to drive more than 300 miles to get it, but it was worth). It's a white '97 Sahara with 84,000 miles, automatic. I'm the 3rd owner. I drove back today and just got back home. Great car ! I was looking for a 5 speed, but after driving an auto, I really liked it. 17.5 mpg on the trip, driving at 70 mph, really windy. I bet I will have several questions from now on. Do you know how to post pics ?
Just thought I would share with my buds in here that Thelma Jane has a new lift, and it's an Old Man Emu 2" lift.
I am still operating under the philosophy that I should stay as close to stock as possible, while adding mods that help me get around Turkey Bay. I don't need 6" of lift and 35" tires to do the obstacles I like to do there, and that is where 95% or more of my wheelin' is done.
I may never go any bigger than 31" tires, and that OME lift is plenty for that size tire. Yes, you can put 31's on a TJ with no lift at all, but the lift gives some room for axle travel, especially when the front sway bar is diconnected.
I had a 2" Procomp lift on Thelma Jane, but the springs had settled to the point that I really had almost no lift at all. Those springs had been on her for four years, and they had been used on two other Jeeps before I got them.
There are very few products that a person hears only good things about, without a single "bad review." Old Man Emu lift kits for TJ's is one of those products. I have not heard the first negative comment about them, but I have heard people simply rave about how good they are.
So, now that I have an OME lift, am I raving? YES! Those springs and shocks give Thelma Jane tremendous ride and handling characteristics. I'm getting a nice firm ride for handling, but, at the same time, it's a smooth ride.
All I can say is that the people who have been saying such great things about the Old Man Emu 2" lift kits for TJ's have NOT been exaggerating. The kit is all I hoped it would be and more. I highly recommend the OME for people who need only two to three inches of lift. That's right, people often get up to 3" inches of actual lift with the 2" kit. I think I must have gotten close to that with my kit.
Tomster
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
P.S. OME kits are rated Light, Medium, and Heavy Duty. To get the maximum ride height, go with the HD kit. If you have a hardtop and/or a winch, then you definitely want the HD version.
Glad to hear you've kept your enthusiasm Tom!
Synthetic oil won't buy you much at this point, unless you live somewhere like Alaska, where its low temperature viscosity will be a big plus. In fact, you may well get problems with leaking seals unless it was previously running on synthetic for the last 84k.
Personally, I use the same brand (any that meets the spec will do) all the time, and change it together with a new filter every 3k.
You might also want to change all the fluids at this time, which will (a): give you a baseline for future service and maintenance, and (b): be a good thing anyway!
Don't know where you'll find any freebies, but for $25 you can get a years access to the genuine Factory Service Manual here at: AllData
Don't know about the O² sensor, but I doubt it as that year uses a carb. Won't take you long to look and see though.
As he's working without a manual, you might want to check that the head was torqued down to the correct values and in the correct sequence. Did he have it checked for flatness while it was off?
I lost much of my enthusiasm for Jeeps and for " wheelin' " for a while, but it's sort of coming back now. As you who have been around here for a while know, I lost my best friend of the four-legged persuasion a year ago almost to the day. On September 19th last year, I had to have my best Jeepin' Buddy, Ross Allen, put to sleep.
He was with me the very first time that I ever went wheelin', and he went with me every time I ever went to Turkey Bay, except the time my boss and his two sons went, and I had to put the back seat back in. It broke my heart and his as well to leave him home that day.
I still had good friends out there on the trails, and I didn't stop wheelin', but it was just not the same without my Puppy there with me. Spending the entire day with him was one of the very best things about wheelin'; it was something I so closely identified with Ross Allen that it was almost impossible to keep going after losing him.
I now have Hank to go with me, and he loves it. He is making me a really good Jeep Buddy, and I think old Ross Allen must have had something to do with my finding Hank.
I had just started to recover from losing Ross Allen, and next thing I knew, one of my very best human friends, Gill Blue, the owner of a Jeep website that I hang out in all the time, found out that he had cancer. That was in early April this year, and Gill died on August 31st, three and a half weeks ago.
I have lost two Jeep Buddies that I loved dearly. This world can be such a sad place sometimes, can't it?
Dog lovers will probably enjoy the website that I made to honor my Rossie Pup, but it will almost certainly evoke some tears.
http://home.earthlink.net/~tsjay53/
Hopefully, I am back now. I might not post with anything like the frequency that I used to, but I'll be around a lot more now than I have been for the last several months.
Tomster
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
I will personally say that it is mainly your advice and meeting you in March of 04 and riding with you at TB that led me to making Kermit my own and building him up so I could wheel with you and the IAJ group.
The pain you've been going through has been tremendous and I've never doubted or questioned the reasons you've slowed down from the 'net. I understood and still do.
I appreciate that you called and asked me questions about the OME stuff and it brought a smile to my face knowing that the guy who essentially got me into wheeling called and asked me advice/questions about the lift I've been using.
Glad you love the OME lift, as I knew you would. I hope to see you on the trails at TB sometime. Just let me ride behind you until I get used to wheeling Kermit again after my flop.
You have a lot of friends here and on the IAJ site. We are always here for you and VERY happy to see you posting and working on Thelma Jane again!
-Paul
My initial thoughts were the tie rod ends. If they are priced high enough, I'd probably opt for the ZJ V8 tie rod upgrade and put a beefier tie rod in at the same time. But I'm not sure what else I should look at.
-Paul
With the engine running and the vehicle on a high traction surface, like dry concrete or asphalt, have them slowly rotate the steering wheel 90º one way, then back to center, then 90º the other way, then continue as necessary.
You should be laying at the front end and looking carefully at each steering joint and connection in turn. Start at the steering box and work outwards each side to the tie rod ends. Any excess movement will be clear, but what you're feeling may be made up of an accumulation of wear in several joints.