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They cannot specify where or who changes you oil. No questions, no stipulations. All they can say is change it. Just as there are incompetent workers at Jiffy Lube, there are incompetent workers at Toyota dealers (hard to believe that?) They cannot deny warranty coverage for an individual that performs their own maintenance. The policy they have just rolled out, while not doing that specifaclly, comes extremely close.
And while none of the Toyota sales people who are congregating here want to say it, they have no idea why oil is failing nor do they have a solution. And on top of that, if your vehicle fails when this non admission of fault expires, your out of luck. Now isn't that a great way to treat a customer?
Like I said at the start, Toyota has just dug a bigger hole, good luck.
3.) I change my own oil every 3,000 miles. Does that mean, since I don't have a Jiffy Lube
receipt, I am not covered?
I would think that no, you aren't covered. How could you prove you met the basic requirements?
Word of honor?
Class Action Lawsuits: --Let's get at least one thing straight here. Anyone can sue anyone for anything. You don't need a just cause, or does filing a suit imply even a shred of legitimacy to a claim.
I can sue any of you for directing pink rays from Mars into this forum, ruining my computer. Of course, if you'd like to settle out of court and save yourself the trouble...ahem....I am open to negotiation.
http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=1534
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-000010008feb09.story
And I like that article in that post jj. You'd think I wrote it.
I especially like
"Like more than 3,000 other owners who have complained to Toyota about vehicles equipped with two of the automaker's core engine families - the 1MZ V-6 and 5SFE inline 4"
looks like a cut and paste of one of my posts.
Oh yeah Cliffy....Told you and Wenyue ago this was a Toyota problem and they were gonna have to deal with it.
You think it got heated in here at times. Check out the flames here...cyw0 ""Most post 1992 Camrys have sludge problem and will seize" rumor" Apr 22, 2000 8:28am .
Nice spin control on their part but that's exactly what it is and also obvious no one beileves their story. Well, hope the people affected on this board get their rebuilt engines.
Personally, my current 92 Toyota will be the last one I own. There is not doubt in my mind that they built their reputation for durability and reliability and are now cheapening the car to rake in the profits in the hopes the consumer will never notice!
Your dealer isn't responsible for you not following their recommendations!
My dealer in VA recommends 3500 miles and the cost of doing at the dealer vs Jiffy Lube is worth it to me. How many oil changes at Jiffy Lube don't even change the filter?
Get a good dealer...I go to one who is in the President's club. They take their ratings seriously. They also provide a complimentary 'shuttle' to downtown and a ride back to the dealer in the evening, even if you are just getting an oil change.
I usually do my oil changes myself, but wanted the dealer to do this since it was such an expensive (for us) vehicle.
Questions:
would using synthetic oil (I have used Castrol Syntec in my own car) help? I guess I could ask the dealer to use synthetic, but then you never know if they really did, and charged you more anyway. And if I do it myself, will an Auto Barn receipt be good enough if I have a warranty claim?
Also, the "one year from date of letter" is scary, what happens in 2 years? I will have the vehicle for 3 more years.
I will now be changing oil every 3.5k miles, and thinking of alternating between myself doing it and the dealer, so at least I am covered by receipts.
This is a Toyota neutral post. I've been following this topic for quite awhile and just read the last 100, and have noticed that there is more a concern about mileage rather than number of months in deciding when to do an oil change.
Don't think that a dealership in deciding whether or not to honor a warranty claim will not look at 6 to 9 month intervals [albeit only 4500 miles covered ]as abuse or lax attention to your vehicle.
I am just saying keep this in mind. Maybe I am a little paranoid, but any car I have ever owned has gone in every 3 months regardless of mileage.I do not think that anyone here in L.A. can claim anything LESS than severe duty and should follow the severe duty sched. {which I am NOT suggesting everyone needs to do here,just suggesting another factor} Mileage is NOT the only part of the equation.
This is an observation from reading so many of the posts, not an accusation or inference of stupidity. But is there not a time frame suggestion in the owner's manual as well?? That is JUST as critical. I cannot imagine anyone going in once a year for an oil change even under optimum conditions!That would be leaving a LOT of acid, gasoline, pollutants and poison in your crankcase for a VERY long time.
There is no doubt in my mind that the sludge was not due to my lack of maintenance and I don't think the problem is Toyota specific, so I am not here to argue that. I do have a major gripe with Toyota though. The dealership we went to in Florida handled us so badly. We even had a few independent diagnostic tests done and the dealership refused to offer any other solution other than replacing our engine, $8000 thank you very much! I feel we were hard balled.
*****
The worst part of it to me may just sound like whining to some but at the time we discovered the problem with our van the movers were already scheduled to pack us out for our overseas move with the Navy. The dealership refused to budge and our only alternitive was arbitration which we didn't have time for. We couldn't ship a car with so many problems overseas to be our transportation for the next 3 years so we were forced to trade it in at a huge loss. We got a Honda Odyssey and are happy with it. Now we are here in Italy and come to find out, had we been able to wait a few more months Toyota would have fixed our van!!!!!!!!!!
What about us? What about the negative equity we rolled into our new vehicle?!?
Make no mistake about it, this is a problem with Toyota. Until they change the manual to read the that the oil must be changed every 3,500 miles under any conditions, with synthetic oil only and only at the Toyota dealer (as suggested would have prevented the sludging by the dealership in Florida) they are responsible for the repairs.
I just tried a Toyota Express Lube yesterday, for the first time. No appointment necessary, and the price was a reasonable US$24.95, plus they vacuumed my interior and topped off my other fluids.
This was at a dealer other than the one where I bought my RAV4; this one's closer, and I didn't have to make an appointment 4 weeks out, which is what my original dealership needs me to do for a Saturday / while-I-wait oil change and tire rotation! Now I'll have to do my own tire rotation (wish I had a paved driveway), as this dealer's Saturday service is ONLY the Express Lube. It won't hurt me to get my hands a little dirty working on my car again, I suppose.
Because of the convenience, and the Toyota documentation of the oil change, I'll be happy to go back to the Express Lube dealership every 5,000 miles, other than my every-15,000 mile services, which I'll continue to have done at my original dealership.
Time no longer important IMHO unless you live in a cold climate and do short trips.
Toyota Special Policy Assures Customer Satisfaction And Emphasizes Importance Of Proper Vehicle Maintenance
February 8, 2002 -- Torrance, CA -- Toyota Motor Sales (TMS), U.S.A., Inc., has implemented a Special Policy Adjustment (SPA) as a measure to insure customer satisfaction for a very small number of Toyota and Lexus owners who may have experienced a condition known as engine oil gelling, which can be caused by a lack of proper vehicle maintenance.
This condition, not unique to Toyota or Lexus products, tends to occur due to three factors. Changing motor oil less frequently than the recommended interval is the primary cause along with short, stop-and-go-driving cycles and cold weather climates. Symptoms of oil gelling include blue smoke coming from the tailpipe and/or excessive oil consumption, which may cause the malfunction indicator light (MIL) to illuminate.
If a customer vehicle exhibits signs of oil gelling, and the owner can show reasonable evidence of regular engine maintenance, Toyota will cover expenses related to the condition. This one-time goodwill gesture provides coverage for circumstances that would not be covered under warranty and is offered on a case-by-case basis for one year.
"We're not aware of any cases of oil gelling in properly maintained engines," said Bob Daly, TMS group vice president and general manager of Toyota Customer Services. "The vast majority of Toyota owners, and motorists in general, regularly maintain their vehicles and will never encounter this condition. But for some, busy schedules, budget considerations or misunderstanding of what constitutes 'normal' versus 'severe' driving conditions may result in neglecting their vehicle.
"Even though the complaint rate is extremely low, we think this is the perfect opportunity to go the extra mile to emphasize the need for proper maintenance of any vehicle and to spare a very few owners costly repairs," added Daly.
Letters reminding customers about the importance of keeping up with their vehicle's recommended maintenance programs and detailing the specifics of the SPA were sent to owners of potentially affected vehicles beginning in February 2002. Vehicles involved in this SPA include certain 1997-2001 model-year vehicles with four- and six- cylinder engines.
Toyota and Lexus owner's manuals stipulate oil changes every 7,500 miles or six months, whichever comes first under normal driving conditions, and 5,000 miles or four months under severe operating conditions. The 5,000-mile, or severe schedule, should be adhered to if a customer drives on unpaved or dusty roads, tows a trailer or makes repeated trips of less than five miles in cold temperatures.
"Toyota understands that customers can sometimes be confused about how to properly maintain their vehicles," commented Daly. "We're confident that this program will remind customers of their responsibility as well as reassure those who have had regular oil changes that they have nothing to be concerned about."
Toyota and Lexus vehicles are known worldwide for quality, dependability and reliability as shown by independent research from various well-known organizations. In fact, in the 2001 J.D. Power and Associates Vehicle Dependability Study (VDI), which examines the durability of vehicles after four to five years of ownership, Toyota and Lexus had 14 vehicles rank in the top-three of their respective segments.
Toyota owners who feel they qualify for repairs or reimbursement under the Special Policy Adjustment can call 888-802-9436 for more information. Lexus owners can call 888-654-6421.
The Facts About Toyota's Special Policy Adjustment (SPA)-Engine Oil Maintenance
February 8, 2002
Of all the many claims made about engine oil sludge these days, this much is true: It's an industry-wide issue that's existed since the dawn of the internal combustion engine.
We're Toyota Motor Sales USA-the US distributor of Toyota and Lexus cars and trucks-and together with our 1375 dealers, we'd like to set the record straight about sludge and our Special Policy Adjustment (SPA) for Engine Oil Maintenance.
Whether it's called sludge or engine oil gel, it's nasty stuff and bad for engines. It happens when old, dirty oil becomes thick and no longer does what it was meant to do-lubricate the engine. It's certainly not unique to Toyota.
We recently made a decision to reimburse owners of certain 1997-2001 Toyota and Lexus vehicles for engine problems related to oil gelling, even though all of our evidence indicates the problem is caused by improper maintenance-not by a product flaw.
Why would a company do that?
We did so voluntarily because we care about our customers and believe the experience of owning and driving our products should mirror the high quality of the vehicles themselves. And frankly, we take great pride in the reputation our dealers and we have earned as the industry benchmark for quality and reliability. We also hope this goodwill offer will heighten awareness of the importance of regular maintenance.
Our engine oil maintenance SPA is straightforward, providing assistance to owners of the affected vehicles who encounter engine problems related to oil gelling as a result of failure to maintain their engines properly.
We work very closely with our dealers to ensure we hear the voice of our customers and are able to respond to what they tell us about our products and their ownership experience. We monitor internet forums along with our own websites to help us capture all relevant public opinion about our company and products and, when needed, to clarify any of our policies or actions that provoke inaccurate or erroneous claims.
We're eager to provide additional facts about our Engine Oil Maintenance Special Policy Adjustment and its provisions:
· This is a maintenance issue-We simply have not found one case in which a properly maintained Toyota or Lexus has experienced sludge build-up and the related mechanical problems associated with this condition. The vast majority of our customers follow our recommended maintenance schedules and avoid the risk.
· We are offering assistance under this special program to owners of 1997-2001 Camrys, Solaras, Siennas, Avalons, Celicas and Highlanders as well as 1997-2001 Lexus ES300s and RX300s and are contacting them with a letter.
· Toyota and Lexus owners enjoy one of the best power train warranties in the automotive industry, but damage caused by improper maintenance is excluded from that coverage.
· The Special Policy Assistance for owners of affected vehicles will reimburse them for repairs already completed for the effects of oil gelling. It goes one step further by protecting our customers who undergo engine problems related to oil gelling for up to a year following our letter. We're asking all of our custom
Christine
extended drain intervals. Mark Graham is president of Jiff Lube International, the foremost fast
lube chain owned by Pennzoil-Quaker State (PQS), the number one engine oil marketer. He has also recently become chairman of the board for he Automotive Aftermarket Industry Association (AAIA), the premier representative for the automotive aftermarket. In a September 2001 Lubricants World interview, Graham took on the issue of extended drain intervals, revealing
exactly why he opposes them. When asked what issues the AAIA is currently dealing with,
Graham replied, “There is a significant issue out there that affects anybody that utilizes
lubricants, and that is extended drains. The fact that consumers to day have been creating a
larger spread in between their oil changes has had a significant effect on anybody in the oil
change business. Everything that we can do to bring the oil change interval back into a logistical time-frame, the better off we are.” Graham goes on to explain that OEMs (original equipment manufacturers) have “confused” the issue by telling people that 6,000 to 7.500-mile intervals are fine as long as they are not “severe service” drivers. In his opinion, consumers are confused over what makes a “severe service” driver. “At (PQS) we use a number internally that if we [shorten the drain interval] by 100 miles [for each car serviced], it would mean an additional $20 million in revenue for the company.” Proclaims Graham. “The revenue benefits are equally
significant for everybody else. That’s a lot of money. Jiffy Lube also estimates that if we
increased one car a day [per shop] in our system, that’s $33 million in revenue. "Looking at all
this from another angle, if we could move our customers to get one more oil change per year,
it’s worth $294 million for the oil change alone, and $441 million in revenue, when you include the ancillary products and services customers typically buy along with the oil change.” “We need to educate consumers on reducing the extended drain, and then we [Jiffy Lube] certainly want to out-market our competitors,” says Graham. “But before we do that, we have to get into the heads of the consumers that a 5,000- or 6,000-, 7,000-mile oil change is not OK, and we need to tell them why. And we need to get them to understand that normal vs. severe really means.”
The time factor IS important especially if the manual says: 3 months or 3000 miles "whichever comes first". That would certainly be a critical factor in trying to make a warranty claim.
The head of Jiffy Lube is correct in suggesting that people are confused about what constitutes "severe" duty and it's more than just driving on dusty roads or hauling a trailer.
To suggest that a sort of re-education campaign is necessary is self serving, yes, but it needs to be done. How many people outside all of us Edmund's junkies have even opened the owner's manual, much less committed any of it to memory or routine usage???
It kind of makes you wonder why fast lube places have not, do not, and will not EVER sell oil analysis products! (LOL)
I would hope if i stood to lose 441M in yearly revenue...??? I will be quiet now....
shoot, change oil every 1500 miles!!!! (LOL)
or more precisely, from what planet did the creature who wrote the maintenance guidelines come from?
and even more precisely, which oils sludge up first and worst, so we can be sure to leave them for toyota owners?
This could might as well be grouped in the engine sludge forum (moderators....if you need to....)
The quick moral of the story.....Toyota is willing to go out on a limb for their customers.
But the general rule of 3000 oil changes still applies in full force (a little extra insurance)
thanks again,
Mr. Shiftright
Host
A cleaning agent as well that has gotten good reviews on other boards
Someone noted and I guess that I agree that with all flush systems (engine or tranny) and cleaning agents that the tranny pan and filter and oil pan must be dropped and cleaned after using these systems/products due to sludge/gunk being dislodged and eventually plugging up the intake tubes or filters.
After a tranny flush I would insist on dropping the pan and replacing the filter. Few places will even consider doing that though.
Well, this is really sweet - We, sludged up people, DID have a problem in our beloved Toyota's. Dozens of you accused us of not changing our oils (we did.) So it is nice that Toyota has done something about it - but they lost me as a customer - how many more did they lose?
Someone else made the comment that we (the sludge victims) should just be happy that we got what we wanted and find something else to be incensed about. How do you figure?? I wanted a dependable, worry free car that with proper maintenance would provide me reliable, safe transportation for a set cost for 36 months. I got what I wanted for only 26 months. The last 7 months have been anything but "worry free." So now Toyota is willing to reimburse owners for the repair costs, or repair the car if it isn't repaired yet. This may help some people, but it doesn't help me or anyone who went through this problem and already sold the vehicle. What about those customers? I did not have the money to repair my vehicle, so I was forced into litigation by Toyota. This SPA doesn't help me at all. I wonder how many of the 3,400 "complainers" will actually be able to collect their reimbursement?
If I was in the market for a used Camry, Sienna, RX, or any of the other Toy products with the suspect engines, I would require proof of Gel Lack before I purchased same. On a private sale, what seller is going to lift the top of the engine and take dated photos?
On a Toy used car lot I can hear it now: "Hey, hey, Gel on THIS baby?! You gotta be kidding. We've serviced this kid for years now and we have the Jiffy Lube receipts to prove it, all made out to "Joe." Sure.
If I had a Toyota, it would be every 3750 regardless, under the recent discoveries.
Now at least those who tried to maintain their vehicles reasonably, and got sludge will not be called liars.
By the way, I have had excellent service from my Toyota dealer here on the Central Coast of California (San Luis Obispo, CA). I purchased my Highlander from them, have used their parts department (accessory purchase), and have it serviced there. So far (12,000 miles) so good! No complaints.
On another note, an early posting touched on the brand of oil used by Jiffy Lube....at least as of a year or so ago, the Jiffy Lube's around here used Castrol as a primary brand..not sure if they still do, though (the Jiffy Lubes in this area are all operated by a single franchise owner). Anyway, perhaps the franchised Jiffy Lubes use other brands of oil, if they choose? Academic for some of us, now, though! /Ron
In any case, I'm very glad that Toyota decided to repair people's problem engines, even if these only represent 0.1% of Camrys and Siennas sold. Toyota went out on a limb for such a small percentage of their customers, and I'm not sure if every car company would do that. I think it's because they pride themselves on their reputation for durability and reliability, and saw that this, in the long run, would damage their reputation. A smart move.
Since I live in Canada, I follow the "severe" maintenance schedule and have oil changes done at the dealer.
On this issue of maintenance, let me make a few observations.
1. It is time or miles, whichever comes first. If you only drive 5000 miles per year, you need a minimum of 2 oil changes per year and three per year if your driving is stop and go. The manual is clear on this fact.
2. Call me old school, but I do oil changes every 3K miles and I lease my truck. Regardless of what the book says, I believe cars run better and longer with fresh oil.
3. I spent some time in our service lane today, talking to the manager. He told me some very interesting things. It seems we have seen a number of these vans come in with sludged engines. The customers always claim to have done oil changes, yet the OEM filter is still on it. You see, factory oil filters have an identifying mark to indicate they were factory installed. These customers were claiming oil changes but still had the original filter on. Some even produced receipts "proving" oil changes had been done. This actually got funny because the receipts had different dates, but the numbers on the top were sequential and all written with the same pen.
4. Stop complaining. All you squeaky wheels got your dose of grease.
Fact is though, as the News Article notes, there have been 3000 complaints of sludge.
Sounds like the Enron execs CYA to me so let's jsut Say Toyota covered up and they have a problem. Now they need a fix in lieu of 3,750 mile oil changes.
No abnormal noises; uses <1qt per 5K; no "sludge" or coolant loss evident. I guess we may just be lucky, but I think it's a darn good car.
I have a neighbor who's a bit A-personality who only uses synthetic oil in his cars [Mazdas w/over 150K each] and has had NO oil related problems.
Like I said, just my $.02.
Yes, but what are 3000 complaints if they sold 3.3 million engines? GM has far worst complaints over their engines and cars, and the world doesn't go topsy-turvy over it. Why, all of a sudden, when Toyota as a good will gesture, agrees to fix 0.1% of their engines gone bad, that people here cry murder?
Good will gesture, come on, a good will gesture would have covered these from the beginning!
It was profits all along now it is SPIN CITY and CYA! But, if you wish to call it Goodwill that is fine. However, this little goodwill gesture and lack of it over the years will and has cost them many customers!
But, in retrospective, the fuss we make here is for (I know I'm repeating myself here) only 0.1% of the engines sold. But, has anyone here died because of bad engine design? No. Funny how Toyota tries to go out on a limb for 0.1% of their customers, as they know this will be bad press, yet DaimlerChrysler is refusing to recall their minivans because of a faulty engine design (ie. a pvc hose that runs over the engine, and if it cracks, gas gets directly on the engine and the van blows up). Why haven't we heard more of this, yet we're ready to turn the world over because of engine sludge in 0.1% of Toyota's engines?
Every car manufacturer, even Rolls Royce, gets a lemon out once in a while (unfortunately). Toyota is no exception to this, although statistics and owner testimonials say that there's a lower chance of getting a lemon with a Toyota. Maybe people make a big fuss out of this because the industry might have found a minor flaw in the benchmark standard for quality and reliability.