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Ford Focus ZX3 / SVT vs. Honda Civic Si / RSX
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Link to Varsity Ford
There's $2500 rebate on 02 Focus SVT. Also, 02 ZX3 is only $10,400 or so. Even that comes w/ 16" rims.
I know I priced an 03 Si and comparing it to an 02 SVT. But at least Ford doesn't have problem comparing a slow selling overpriced non-competitive SVT Focus compared to the Si. The prices that we see on the 02 Si, we can at least agree is not typical. Let's talk more once the 02 runs out and compare the 03 Si. Maybe the 03 Si will be massively discounted too. It is ironic an 02 Si w/ more HP can be had for less money and an 02/03 Civic EX.
In anycase, I'm on your side esp. on the rim/tire of the Si. Defnitely not worth the $19k MSRP nor the $17.4k INVOICE.
quote-The Focus SVT has been criticized from within and outside of Ford for extended production delays and Ford's announcement many not settle well with enthusiasts and Ford dealers who want a departure from continued embarrassing quality glitches.-end quote
Embarrassing is correct in regards to Focus quality.
"Yuck, who needs it!"
Reminds me of my approach to romance!
It is a moot point (referring to anony) to argue that you save $2k from buying the Si over the SVT and you can use the money to buy rims.
Face it. 02 Si are not selling. Thus the low $15k price. It is not typical. Stop using the lowest absolute price on an Si and compare it to average to high price of SVT Focus.
If we can't find Si like the SVT Focus sold anywhere, you can bet the dealer will ream your rearend when you show interest in buying the Si. Just count our blessing for those of us who happen to like the Si and live with its shortcomings and got it for $15k. Personally, $16k for me.
Talking about a 10.5K ZX3 makes sense. That puts the ZX3 in the frame I have for the Mazda Protege - good handling, a little weak in the power department, questionable reliability and resale. I.e., for me, not a bad choice but one to be opted for only if $'s are too tight for an Si.
ZX3 vs. Pro? I'd go ZX3, mostly for the looks.
I can not find any advertised price for the SVT other than MSRP. If I could find a different price I would use it. The price I used for Si is certainly not the lowest possible, other people have stated that they have purchased for less than $14,500. I do not use that price for Si because I can not confirm it.
Heck, I can not even find an SVT in inventory.
Not!
But can we at least agree that the average purchased price for the 02 Si is around $17k since some bought them at $18k-$19k and some of us bought them at $15-$16k. Since the SVT doesn't have mass discounting like the slow selling Si (whether because it was non-competitive, overpriced or oversupplied, whatever the reason), the average price is probably around $17k as well.
For every Honda geek that drools over an Si, you can also find a red-blooded American who drools over a Focus SVT.
Resale value comparison is usually done unfairly. In the past, Civics enjoyed a very high resale value coz' they were purchased a little above invoice/at invoice/below invoice. Compare this to their counterpart (American cars), they were massively discount to move. In the end, you can have a 99 Civic EX selling for the same as a 99 Ford Taurus for example. But then we tend to look at the non-discounted Taurus price and compare that to the Civic (KBB/Edmunds etc. is guilty of doing this when they factor in depreciation) and claim Honda is the king of high resale value.
What about the people who paid $18-$19k or even more when the Si first came out. These poor people are seeing a hit of about $4k comparing to new 02 Si sitting on the lot. I would prefer if we compare it to the 03 Si which are selling around $16-$17k. Hopefully these will sell well. Otherwise, when it comes time to sell my car, I'll be lucky to get $10k in 3 years time in a private sale. Minivan looks, hatchback and puny rims + small HP doesn't help either when competition will continue to offer more HP, better cars and reliability to boot.I might have to make my current beater (the 02 Si) to be the beater of my next beater down the road.
In 2001, I had the opportunity to do a similiar thing: drive a Focus from London to Paris, via the Eurorail car shuttle (had to swap for a left-hand drive car on the French side, Hertz's "Le Swap" lol). It was a fantastic drive and I highly recommend it. Most relevant to this board's topic, the Focus was amazing at speed. The flow of traffic was in excess of 100 mph throughout northern France, and the car was extremely stable and composed at this cruising speed, and when I punched the accelerator in 5th gear at 100 mph (the top speed I hit was 110), it wanted to keep running. It has definitely been designed in Europe for European-style driving. The visibility and driving position contributed to my sense of being in control of that car. I was passed by several vehicles: Honda S2000, Porsche 996, Japanese racing bikes, the Eurostar passenger train....but the Focus was very much in its element and is a good GT for long trips across Europe.
As for the Honda Si, I have never driven a current one, but did once own a Honda Civic CRX Si. It was like a big go-cart: quick responses and stayed glued to the pavement no matter how hard I pushed it into corners. I can't say how stable it is at 100 mph, because I never drove it that fast. The Civic Si and Focus RS are great cars. Since I don't own either one, and haven't driven the current Civic Si, I'll reserve judgment on which one is better.
But seriously, I think you don't realize that you have mistaken the Focus RS for some other model, probably the Focus ST170.
Or maybe you meant the Civic R instead of the Civic Si?
I did not compare the RS directly to the Si. I said that I had driven a Focus and once owned a CRX Si (the discontinued 2-seat version of the Civic Si). It's not really fair to compare a 1991 CRX to a 2001 Focus, so I did offer any opinion on which is the better car.
That all seems right to me, getting what you pay for and all that.
"The Civic Si and Focus RS are great cars. Since I don't own either one, and haven't driven the current Civic Si, I'll reserve judgment on which one is better."
But you allready seem to have all the prices lined up.;)
My guess would be that you're really good with the stocks.;)
It helps me, though, to estimate the price tag attached to the wish - when I'm wishing.
Our SVT dealer still has the 2002 Focus SVT, all the colours available.
I test drove the SiR, and found it much nicer than the 2002 Civic Si coupe we currently have. More power, quieter, and hatchback roominess. I am 6ft tall, yet my head annoyingly touches the roof in the coupe - no problem in the hatch.
Anybody buy one of these in Canada?
Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards
Civic + :
1)Crash tests.
2)Higher resale value
3)Higher gas mileage
4)Better overall quality (i.e. body gap tolerance, interior materials, etc)
Civic - :
1)Lower HP
2)Smaller Tires
3)5 speed tranny
4)Possibly eats up oil (but who cares, oil is cheap, right?)
5)Thieves love it
6)Needs-rhinoplasty front end
7)Strange hard plastic dash/weird area above knees (is that space for cell phones? Change? SOMEBODY PLEAAAAAAASE tell me! arrrgghgh!!!)
Focus + :
1)Great looks (in my opinion, it is WAY cuter than the current Si, though that will change with the Si freshening for '04-just you wait!)
2)6 speed tranny
3)Wheels
4)Interior (not the most attractive, but again, for some reason I LIKE IT)
5)Fewer recent recalls (i.e. quality/reliability is up)
Focus - :
1)Past recalls make me VERY nervous
2)Ford, in my mind, is FOUND ON ROAD DEAD
3)Resale value NOT so good
4)Crash test reults!
5)Lower gas mileage (yes, I know it has to do with a more powerful engine, but you can't compare the Si to the ZX3)
For me, as a consumer, it comes down to TWO THINGS...and at least one of these things one of you said "nobody cares about".
1)CRASH TEST REULTS
2)***GAS MILEAGE*** (bells go off)
I am from Oregon. In the 70's the state created jobs by having people not pump their own gas. I now live in Texas, where you pump your own gas. I HATE PUMPING MY OWN GAS. People in Oregon are truly spoiled. That being said, I want to go as FAR AS I CAN GO without refueling. And therein lies the answer: the car with the higher mileage.
Civic, you're my baby. I love you. Can I take you to dinner? What, you like Synthetic? What vintage...?
:-)
Honda has an excuse though, Si's are built in England.
Other than that, the car is quick. it has an unusually low red line (somewhere by 7200). I constantly bump into the rev limiter (could be the reason why i lose oil) At highways speeds, the car is very stable, but defenately needs 6th gear, at 80 mph it is revving at 4000 RPM. But that low gearing is great for stop and go driving, you cvan easily drive in 1st gear at 5-15 mph without bogging the engine, or playing with the clutch. In an "aggressive driving mode" I can easily chirp the tires in 2nd gear. Up hill starts in the wet are somewhat tricky if you are not at "hell and toesing" a little too much gas and can do a wild burn out. This past winter, I had to resort to 2nd gear starts on slick roads.
The car is very stiffly suspended, which is a plus in my eyes, going over bumps never makes it bounce up and down like regular civic does.
The seats are very comfortable, as long as you are not overweight, they are molded and only the seatback is adjustable, as opposed to seatback and coushion adjustments on the EX.
The shifter takes a total of 15 minutes to get used to, and then you start asking "Why haven't they thought of that before?" The location places it much closer to the steering wheel, allowing for very quick shifts. Lack of armrest and the shifter location make it impossible to rest your right arm anywhere. I just hook my finger on the bottom of the steering wheel.
I have not driven SVT, so I can not comment.
My girlfriend, who drives regular focus, summarized it in "way too much power"
The i-VTEC engine is a much better version than regular VTEC. It has gobs of torque down low, hence the wheel spin. Purinsts will disagree with me. It really behaves like a small V6. 50 to 70 accelerations do not require downshifting anymore.
To be honest, I like pumping my own gas. I am in NJ allot, and that is another state where you can not pump your own gas. How many times my "check engine light" has come on because those kids at the station did not tighten the cap (3 clicks)
except
mine stopped using oil at about 3K miles. I don't drive quite as hard as Dudka (but hard enough to get 23-23 mpg on many tanks).
People - on the street, at lights, refilling propane, at the gas pump, etc. - comment positively a lot.
It's a fantastic car.
I cannot understand the hang up Honda owners have about hiding their problems. Perhaps it is because they paid too much and are embarrassed about admitting they bought junk. I was embarrassed too, but my anger was much greater.
I have had many good cars and a few bad ones (bad were a Pontiac, 2 Hondas, a Suzuki).
I think if you stick to performance experience people can get a better comparison. Besides the Focus drivability, the thing that amazes me is the list of aftermarket add-ons Ford makes for the Focus. They include cosmetic parts and performance parts, and all can be added without voiding your warranty. I saw one with some sort of compartmentalized, tubular headlight system that was mind-blowing, and I learned that it was a Ford part, not third-party.
I owned a 1991 Accord until sometime in 2000. In the last two years, the brakes would wear down quickly. The front wheel bearings locked up, and I had to replace a CV boot. All of this was at the 8-9 year mark. For the most part, I was very happy with it.
I'm glad you like your Focus, I seriously considered one. But as a _general_ rule, I would take my chances on Honda build quality over Ford.
Is your Focus an SVT? If it's an ordinary ZX3. It is not really comparable to the Civic Si, especially in power or interior equipment levels. That said, if you got it for a bargain basement price, you are driving a wonderful car on the cheap.
Let's see.
1. A clip inside the door panel was loose and rattled from day one -- fixed under warranty
2. center vent stuck in the "to the right" position -- fixed under warranty
3. Clear coat started peeling in the hatch area ---- fixed under warranty
4. It is under Honda's oil consumption test right now
5. Just the other day the inside door handle on the driver's side broke -- have not taken to dealer yet.
I am disappointed at Honda's QC, but what do you expect from a car made in UK.
Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards
Whoever said the 02/03 Si's resale was a plus compared to the SVT will be very disappointed. You have to ask yourself how much of a trade-in the guy got for an Si you can buy new for $4k off MSRP.
The current Si should be compared more to the ZX3 than the SVT. The SVT has stellar handling, braking and steering, the Si doesn't quite match up.
Reliability. Yes, many Honda owners are fiercly loyal and do downplay any defects with their cars. But the reliability is proven also and so it's my opinion that it's probably a 50-50 combination of actual good reliability and perception. The SVT has no perception of good reliability and owners are much less likely to give the Ford a "break" when it come to reporting any problems.
Shucks, on the financial issue alone the RXS Type S beats the SVT.
The points you have made about resale, on two seperate forums today, only apply to people who paid MSRP. Anyone who paid $16k or less (and there are many of us) is going to be fine.
2. Si vs. ZX3
If you don't like the Si, just say so. Every major magazine compared the Si to the SVT, never the ZX3. Car and Driver liked the Si better than the GTI, and only slightly less than the SVT. And Motor Trend liked it better than the SE-R. I never drove the Zetec ZX3, but I've driven the new PZEV, and it's very nice, but it does not compare with the Si.
3. Reliability
My Si has a noisy drivers window, and a creaky clutch, and that's it. I have 15,000 miles, no other problems. Now, I didn't bring up reliability, you did, but if you are going to say that the legendary reliability of the Focus is comparable to the Si, I am going to think you are only here to be argumentative.
Focus:
The bad:
1. Engine is very noisy at any RPM above idle.
2. Clunky shifter, I am almost never sure what gear it is in.
3. Handling is way too soft for my liking.
4. Downright dangerous to drive in the rain as the tail is constanlty wiggling at any speed above 45 mph.
5. Her trade-in after a year is only $9000-10000.
6. Poor uphill pick up in 5th gear.
7. Way to many things are optional, which should have been standard.
The good:
1. Good low RPM torque
2. Good gas mileage (over 30 mpg)
3. A/C is ice cold
4. Has not been to the dealership for anything onther than regular maintenance.
5. 0.0% financing
Civic Si:
The good:
1. awesome shifter position
2. smooth and crisp gears
3. lots of power down low (just like focus)
4. engine is much quieter through rpm range
5. awesome handling (i can take turns at 70 mph, as if it were straight away)
6. much cheaper than similarly packaged focus.
7. 4 wheel disk brakes with Electronic Force Distribution.
8. Dirt cheap if you look (got mine for $14,500)
The bad:
1. Unusually high oil consumption - dealer assures that it will stop after 10,000 miles. Will see.
2. Has been to the dealer for manufacturing defects 3 times, and now is ready to go again for a malfunctioning door handle.
3. Seats are highly saught after by "modifiers wannabes" (thieves)
4. Unusually low red line (6800 according to honda, 7200 according to my tach)
5 Desperately needs 6th gear, as it runs at 4000 rpm at 80 mph in 5th.
6. No arm rest, not even optional.
"The Bad"
1. I haven't had this problem, so I can't comment.
2. What defects? I have 2.
3. Not fair to use that as a negative!
4. The tach is meaningless, it's 6800. And that is only unusually low for an Si. Isn't the overall performance more important than the redline? I much prefer the power delivery of this car (and its redline) to the older Si. It is much more usable in every day driving.
5. A 6th gear doesn't mean overdrive. The RSX-S has a 6th gear (and you can easily put that transmission into the Si), and so does the Miata (and many others) that simply have closer spaced gears. No overdrive. The SVT doesn't have overdrive either.
6. I was having trouble shifting in the Focus with the armrest down, although I suppose it would be nice for cruising.
With no wish at all to rain on your parade, check out the resale prices. Even with a buy price equal to the Si ($16K, smart shopper's price), the SVT comes in 2nd, buckwise, by $2-$3K.
These MSRP's are silly, IMO.
One small suggestion: it's a good idea to break up your longer messages into small paragraphs. This will makes it easier for other to read; and people will be more likely to read your entire message if it's easy on the eyes. Thanks for your participation! ;-)
To Everyone - Since the RSX has been brought into the discussion here on a number of occasions, I'm going to add it to the title subject. Hope this is helpful. Happy motoring!
Revka
Host of Hatchbacks & Wagons
The car we traded in on the SVT was a 2002 Civic Ex (Canadian Si) Coupe. My wife had hit a deer with it, and although the repair looked good, we decided to trade. That car was not of the highest quality - we had to have a strut replaced on it in the first 10k miles. So the Ford has been no worse than the Honda we had. Great thing about the Civic Coupe - fuel economy. Poor things about the Civic Coupe - lack of headroom (I'm 6ft tall, and my head was always touching, very annoying), less than stellar handling, not very quick.
The bottom line is that I would recommend the Focus SVT to anybody, especially if you like to drive. I've tried Solo II racing in the car, great fun. Ford has a long powertrain warranty on the car, to quell any concerns about quality.
http://www.detnews.com/2003/autosinsider/0311/04/c01-315932.htm
This in the same week that Honda announced huge recalls (not Civic).
Interesting how much change can occur in a short time.
When looking at a Focus in the showroom I found the inner door jam had been unpainted. Why would anyone put that on display? How many people at Ford failed to see that?
To me that translated into equal apathy towards the rest of the car. Sorry no sale.
Reviews say this is a great car to drive, obviously well engineered. Too bad the rest of the company didn't hold up their end.
Final word, count the number of orphans Ford has created. How long will it be before the Focus is old news and gets moved to the back of the lot?
26000 km on my 02 SIR. Some nits but no major faults. Most of all it's a blast drive and fits like a glove.
I recently lowered my car by changing the springs, and the handling has improved significantly. Should be a lot of fun as long as the stock shocks last.