Pontiac GTO

garnes · July 2003

I'll second valhs post. Although I still suspect the GTO engine is a bit stronger than the standard Corvette engine (not just the tad more torque peak either). At 3700 lbs it's on the heavy side though.

andys120 · July 2003

the Goat will compare to the CTS-V. The Cad will prolly have more stuff on it (which will satisy Riez), be a little heavier and inevitably more expensive and a tad slower.

Take your choice, spend more for luxuries or go faster w/o them for less.

riez · July 2003

andys120... I haven't advocated for luxury. For example, I don't want the 6-disc player. Give me a simplier 1-disc in-dash. I'd prefer cloth seats. I despise automatic transmissions and navigation systems. Rather have good manual seat over a power seat. But I do want standard side airbags and seatbelt pretensioners. What good is it if you have a great car and some drunk or idiot plows into the side of your car? And it should at least have Xenon HID headlights as an option.

riez · July 2003

valhs... The lack of side airbags and seatbelt pretensioners appear confirmed by both the brochure and GM's media information:

http://media.gm.com/division/2004_prodinfo/pontiac/pdf/04_Pontiac- - - _GTO.pdf

See the top of page 3, "Safety and quality".

When you look at the past 5 years and at all of GM's marques, GM has NOT been at the forefront of passive safety equipment, esp. side airbags and pretensioners.

diablo4 · July 2003

how do i put a picture in my message not the web address.

theiceman · July 2003

You previous posing of this question was answered in post no. 141.

Good luck.

diablo4 · July 2003

what is a URL.

theiceman · July 2003

Apologies.

URL ("unique resource locator") was somebody's idea of a joke - early Internet parlance that stuck around. Obviously not with everyone.

Essentially, it's the web address - like "http://www.edmunds.com". You have to put the web address where your image file is located in the expression [img src="http://www....."] (remember to replace the "[]" with "<>" - if I used "<" and">" in the above example, you wouldn't be able to read the example because the browser would present it as a link, not code.

If it still doesn't work for you, find a site with html tips - something like: ibdguy.com

Good Luck

orwoody · July 2003

Saw this on the car connection:
http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=6246&sid=17- 3&n=156
"Will The Goat Get a New Skin?

Is a new, more macho version of the Pontiac GTO already under development, even before the reborn version of the legendary goat reaches showrooms? Inside sources tell TheCarConnection a revised GTO, more angular than the jellybean car due out for 04, could hit the road with tires spinning in time for the 2006 model-year. We do understand the criticism leveled at the Australian imports styling, Pontiac General Manager Lynn Meyers concedes. Aftermarket hood scoops and other accessories could be quick, bolt-on improvements, she suggests. While Meyers wont directly address the issue of an all-new design, she broadly hints, It always was in our thinking that we would do other things relative to appearance. It always was in our thinking, from Day One."
also: http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=6239

scmike1 · July 2003

...the 2004 GTO. Thinking about the 6 spd Impulse Blue with Blue interior or Quicksilver with Red interior. I think the Quicksilver with the Blue would be sweet.

Getting a kick out of the purists who are griping about a car they haven't even driven or listened to yet. Would have liked to see tail lights reminiscent of the late 60's Firebirds.

For those of you who have placed an order are you able to tell us the price? Thanks.

obiwan · July 2003

From what I have read, the contract to produce GTOs in Australia is for 3 years (2004-2006 model years). I wouldn't expect to see the new GTO until 2007. We might start seeing pics of it in 2006 though.

rqc · August 2003

URL = Uniform Resource Locator aka a web site address.

riez · August 2003

Check out pages 30-31 of the September 2003 issue of Motor Trend. Has two sketches and an article on the next generation GTO. Could happen as early as 2007 or as late as 2010. Claims "Holden is in the midst of shifting is design philosophy to match GM Europe's." Says there are two possibilities: "an all-American design with more expressive sheetmetal and a styling philosophy sprung from the upcoming Grand Am replacement" or a "Holdenesque GTO, with GM-Euroe styling".

andys120 · August 2003

think the Holden-based styling is a tad bland. I'd rather see that than some overstyled "all-American" design. The early GTOs were fairly subtle by '72 or so they'd gotten rather silly with scoops, graphics and wings galore.

Put me down for "Holdenesque GM-Euro".

riez · August 2003

Motor Trend (8/03, p. 89) discusses the upcoming '04 GTO. Couple nice pictures. Very interesting discussion about the GM Peformance Division "toying" with the idea of building a limited-edition super GTO, "possibly to be named the Judge". Might come with Gen III V8 at 400 hp, more aggressive suspension, sportier seats, and a functional cold-air intake system. If done, likely only to be 6-speed manual. MT wants it. So do I!

andys120 · August 2003

"The Judge" sounds a bit dated considering the many people who were not even alive when Laugh-In was a hit TV show.

riez · August 2003

andys120... But there are a lot of people alive who remember what the old Pontiac GTO Judge stood for in the late '60s and early '70s. Always nice to see Detroit try to recover heritage.

riez · August 2003

valhs... Thanks for the information. Too bad about the side airbags. How a $35,000 car today can come without them is beyond me. A complete deal killer for me. Hope they put 'em on in '05! I won't compromise safety for performance. There shouldn't be a trade off. You can have a safe high performance vehicle.

gb7 · August 2003

While I know this is not a place for cry babies, I just didn't know where else to go.

I drive a 2004 silver 6M with 5700 miles on it, and I got rear-ended around 11 PM last night by a DUI driver. There was nothing I could do. I was waiting for the light to turn green, with a 2005 BMW M3 in front of me, when I heard the tires screeching a second before impact, I'd say at around 40 mph maybe less. I judge the impact by the bumper falling off. Simply said, the GTO took a hit front and back. I know I should be thankful I wasn't hurt but I am so depressed.

Random thoughts -

Reading stuff about all parts being from australia and taking a long time, and the chassis not compatible with anything GM makes here, does anyone have any thoughts about the local bodyshop repair capabilities? You know, like straightening out the frame? Are there any good questions to ask the bodyshop guys before I hand the car over? Will the GTO make it out of this mess?

I thank the engineers who moved the gas tank away from the fenders. I also think the car absorbed the impact very well. The spare tire convexed upward, forming a hump on the trunk flooring. The rear glass did not shatter or break. However, I am curious why the airbag did not deploy. I wonder how strong the impact have to be before the airbag goes off??

Drinking and driving - what a senseless thing to do.

obiwan · August 2003

It seems a little strange to me that you would let something like side impact air bags kill a deal for you. So many cars these days don't have them yet and many are over $35K. Why so focused on something like that? And if you are that focused, why not get an ordinary passenger car with many more safety features than the GTO?

riez · August 2003

obiwan... How much is your life worth? Does there need to be a tradeoff between decent standard safety equipment and performance? How many 4-seat cars priced over $30,000 don't come with side airbags in 2004? (Thinking all, or nearly all, are standard.) I'm having trouble thinking of one without. Mustang Cobra or GT convertible?

Don't know about you, but I have a wife and two kids. I want them to survive a crash and I, too, want to survive. Side impact crashes are some of the most dangerous. Just ask someone who has been t-boned or t-boned someone else. T-boning often happens when some drunk runs a red light. Or someone not paying any attention doesn't see the light change. Truly dangerous and hard to stop occurrence.

Comparable cars like G35 Coupe or BMW 3 Series Coupe come standard with side airbags. Not to mention Cadillac CTS, Lincoln LS, Lexus GS400, etc. Why can't GTO?

riez · August 2003

davbo... I don't drive my cars on race tracks or drag strips. Drive 'em on roads with all sorts of intersections, lane configurations, drivers, etc. Safety is an important aspect. Thinking about 35,000 people die each year in automobile accidents. Neither I nor my family want to be a part of this statistic.

How many 4-seat cars (sedans or coupes) with MSRPs over $30,000 are not available with side airbags? GTO is one. Any others besides the Mustangs I mentioned above? Are all those marques and models, and their buyers, just worrying 'bout nothin'? If you get hit on side, would you rather have the side airbags or not?

Safety cannot and should not be sacrificed for performance. One can have both. My '98 540i6 is a perfect example.

GM dropping ball on GTO. Does it even come with front seat seatbelt pretensioners?

theiceman · August 2003

I agree with riez that they should be standard. But they're not. So you buy or don't buy.

My current ride (an '00 Bonneville) has side airbags - but in the front only. That won't help my kids much in the event we get T-boned or simply just roll down an embankment.

I chose the Bonnie partly because of its phenomenal safety rating but it wasn't the only factor. As was (sort of) said earlier, a heavy vehicle without side airbags is safer than a compact with them. That being said, the Holden Commodore without side airbags did okay on the side impact tests in Australia. I don't know if the Monaro has been tested and if it's results will be similar.

By the way, if you get T-boned, why is the sobriety of the driver an issue?

;-P

riez · August 2003

theiceman... You wrote, "if you get T-boned, why is the sobriety of the driver an issue?" I bring that up because so many people seem to believe that they can avoid various types of accidents. A great car can help you avoid accidents. Great brakes, steering, and handling can help avoid an accident if you see what is coming or have time to react. But it is hard to avoid a drunk driver who goes the wrong way down interstates or who fails to stop at stop signs and stop lights. Missing stop lights/signs is often the cause of t-boning. Then there isn't much between the front of the other driver's car and your head & chest. Head/chest airbag(s) can help dramatically.

theiceman · August 2003

I meant it more as a joke than anything. Regardless of how an accident occured, a deployed air-bag typically means there was a collision you couldn't avoid. I suppose that the existence of inebriated drivers makes that collision statistically more likely. But so do a lot of other things - chief among them driver distraction.

Notwithstanding any of that, I do take my safety seriously and still wouldn't dream of passing on the GTO because it didn't have side airbags. Although I will agree with you that it should have them - simply because of its price range and that it's a new model. Still looking good to me though.

Funny that, huh?

obiwan · August 2003

I've lived all my life without getting t-boned. My father is well over 60 and has never gotten t-boned. My grandfather lived to be 91 years old without getting t-boned.

No one in my family got t-boned until my grandmother, who shouldn't have been driving anyway, pulled out into traffic. However, both my grandparents were completely uninjured and that was long before even front airbags were standard.

I don't know a single person who was in an accident that would have not been injured (or just not as severely) had they had side airbags. And I know people all over the country.

How often are there accidents where the side air bag will make a difference? How much of a percentage of total accidents do they make up? How likely is an individual to get into one of these accidents? Could it still happen to me? Yes. Is it possible for me to win the lottery or get struck by lightning as well? Yes. Is any event likely enough for me to worry about? No.

I'm not going to go through life worrying about all the little things that might happen. Life is too short to spend it worrying. I don't want to miss out on all the great fun things that life has to offer.

If you want to worry about accidents, then maybe you should consider abandoning all cars and just walk or take the bus.

riez · August 2003

Just for my own personal edification, can you name me other 4-seat cars (sedans or coupes) with MSRPs over $30,000 that do not have side airbags? Just curious. All I can come up with is Mustang Cobra (& Mustang GT convertible). Am I missing any other car?

davbo... You wrote, "Who would have thunk that the GTO forum would have degenerated into an Air Bag forum...Air bag threads are few and far between". Absolutely correct!!! Only reason airbags came up is Pontiac chose not to put them into a MY04 $35,000 high performance coupe. Their absence is conspicuous and I won't be the only person to note this oversight. I can't wait to see the crash test results, esp. side impact. Shame on Pontiac.

I'm a bit bummed. Saved about $3,000 in GM credit card rebate and the GTO is the only GM product that interests me (other than Corvette, but I need 4 seats).

andys120 · August 2003

I'd like to say that if I owned a 540i/6-speed, as you say you do in your profile, I would have little interest in a GTO.

Even an older 540i has to be light years ahead of the new Goat in everything except pure acceleration, particularly safety, handling and braking.

qbrozen · August 2003

But his is a '98. Cars don't last forever. I can sort of see where he is coming from. I own a '98 T5 and am watching the market for something that might coax me out of it. The GTO looked promising. But now that its getting closer, its looking less and less likely to be what I thought it might be.

andys120 · August 2003

to expect a GTO to replace something like either a T5 or a 540i. It's a different kind of car w different priority and a different appeal.

Nothing against the Goat but a muscle car, even a neo-muscle car is not going to be as well rounded as a good Euro performance car. At least I wouldn't expect it to be. Maybe I'm prejudiced by what the GTO was.

theiceman · August 2003

You might be. The Monaro is known as a fairly respectable handler too. The old GTO? Well, not exactly.

qbrozen · August 2003

Being a car guy, I'm enticed by many different types of vehicles across the spectrum.

I was just one breath away from buying a WRX and the only similarities between that and my Volvo are their 1/4 mile times and the fact that they both have 4 doors and turbos. They are nothing alike in any other way.

What sparked my interest in the GTO is the good ole' reliable 5.7 along with a stick, 4 doors, and a potentially stellar all-around performer ... for a decent price. Euros may be great in many categories, but cheap they are not. Now that I've heard this price of $35K for the GTO, yes, my money will go elsewhere. For just a bit more I can get the S60R and give myself AWD along with Volvo comfort and safety (not that I always think about safety, but just throwing that in to relate to recent conversation).

If GM could have come to market with a price of $26-$27K, then at least the argument against these Euro machines could be "hey, its $27K!!" But it doesn't even have that going for it.

theiceman · August 2003

I think the fact that it's a very limited production has enabled them to hike the price. Let's hope that the next generation is more down to earth - or has AWD as well.

And side airbags of course.

;-P

midwesttrader · August 2003

After much initial enthusiasm about this car, GM has lost me again. I've talked to a couple of local dealers; one salesman sang the old msrp or the highway song and the other was clueless, telling me his sales manager would call me back (never did). I understand GM trying to maximize their profit on the initial run of these cars while they are hot, but treating potential customers with indifference is silly. I see a new/used G35 as a much better overall value.

theiceman · August 2003

But I'm still happier that Lutz decided to bring the GTO back.

I don't know if my next car will be a GTO or a CTS-V. I like what I'm hearing about both of them.

Then again, it could be something completely different - as I'm still about 2 years away from my next new car.

riez · August 2003

andys120... I bought my 540i6 used, Certified Preowned. Saved 40% off original MSRP. But that price was about what a new GTO is projected to cost.

I also have a soft spot for GM iron. Loved my '96 Impala SS. Had it for 6 years. Miss old Darth Vader. Traded in for the 540i6. I also had a bright red '97 Camaro I used for work purposes. 3800 V6 5-speed manual with the Performance Pkg (LSD, bigger tires, etc.). Kids and I miss the old Red Baron. But both lacked IRS.

Too bad the CTS styling is so futuristic. Too hip, too current for my taste. Don't think it will wear well over time. I like the GTO's more restrained and curvy styling.

And with $3K in GM credit card rebates, a 6-speed GTO Gen III 5.7L V8 with LSD and IRS is most appealing. Heck, a 540i6 doesn't even have an LSD (only the M5 has an LSD).

andys120 · August 2003

The GTO will NOT be a four door, nor should it be, but a convertible might keep me out of a Mustang GT.

opimax · August 2003

Don't think it is available on the Goat, is it available on the Bitter or Holden?

Mark
G35 Coupe owner who wants more torque and a bike rack, is this it ???

qbrozen · August 2003

right. not sure why i said that. probably cause i was talking about my car and the ReX.

whatever. the points still stand.

andys120 · August 2003

I agree the old platform is antique and leaves something to be desired.

theiceman · August 2003

I think you have rear leg room issues! (LOL)

It's a good point though. When does a coupe become a 2+2? And at what point would you simply be better off buying a 2 seater? The Mustang's rear seat is pathetic to be sure and the GTO's promises to be much better.

But cars like this conjure up visceral responses - they don't win over adherents through safety equipment and leg room (as you have correctly stated). Nevertheless, most of us still have to rationalize a $30k + purchase - if only to help convince the missus. And the practicality of real rear seats does help.

ice

qbrozen · August 2003

If I buy a coupe, I have very little consideration for rear leg room in the first place. And, basically, anyone I know who would have a tough time fitting in the backseat of a Volvo or Bimmer certainly doesn't want to contort themselves to get in the back of a coupe in the first place.

V8, 6-speed, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, its the only one. Great. So does that mean I should pay that kind of money for it? So they discontinued the reasonably priced Z28 and are, in effect, replacing it with this and we should be happy to pay a premium for it? Sure, sure, you'll tell me about the increased rear leg room and seat travel or some such thing. I still say its not worth all this extra money. Sorry. hey, go buy one, have fun, beat the pants off many many cars on the road. That's great. I'm just not willing to fork over that kind of money for the privelege of driving a 2-door GM V8 (unless it can haul really big things).

riez · August 2003

The GTO brochure says the trunk has (approx) 9 cubic feet of trunk space. That is pretty small. Better not use the space-intruding goose-neck hinges or else the trunk might hardly be useable. Don't see the brochure mentioning anything about split-fold rear seat. Will be interesting to see how useable the trunk is.

Brochure also says front headroom is only 37.3 inches, rear also at 37.3 inches. That might cause problems for tall drivers.

Wonder if the quest for rear seat space compromised trunk room?

andys120 · August 2003

By the standards of the 60s and 70s the original Goats were marginal to be considered family sedans and that will be true of the new Goat in our day when tall truck-based wagons often sreve as family transportation.

Those really in the need of family transportation
with a performance edge would be better advised to look at offerings from Volvo, BMW, Audi and the like.

Back in the day Goats were sold mostly to single guys or married ones with a station or six-passenger sedan already in the driveway.

You can't teach a new Goat old tricks (?)

midwesttrader · August 2003

Does anyone know how many GTOs will be made over the next few years? I understood that production will not be a one-shot deal like Ford has done recently. Will there ever be any available via the dealer's lot or am I stuck (literally) with ordering one? I'd buy one today if I could get a six speed for $31-32K. I just refuse to pay msrp.

andys120 · August 2003

if we're in the tank in '04 there may be plenty of new Goats and few buyers. OTOH a revived economy (you can always hope) is a virtual guarantee that there'll be high initial demand and possibly even MSRP+ADM pricing. It won't last forever with such a competitive auto market IMO.

qbrozen · August 2003

a troll is someone who drops a comment and bails or sticks around for one or 2 retorts and bails. Most times, they also usually make a very one-sided and abrasive comment like "the GTO sucks! I'm gonna buy an STi instead!"
You obviously don't know me, you obviously don't know what a troll is, and you obviously haven't read all of my comments to see the good things I'm saying as well as the bad.

so only a buyer of this car is allowed to comment? Now THAT is boring. Must be lovely going through life only speaking to people who agree with you.

I came here because I WAS interested in the GTO. Have always been a GM musclecar fan. I do like this car, no doubt. Just not over $30K worth of liking. But I'm going to stick around and continue to read about it because it still interests me from a fan standpoint. Just not as a consumer. If that bores you, too bad.

andys120 · August 2003

when you need one. Calm down you guys, this is getting very unpleasant.

qbrozen · August 2003

only 200 posts and you're already tired of complaints? Must be a large percentage of complaints about this car then. Tells me something about it, that's for sure.

I've complained about nothing but the price, so I don't know what you are reading or why my comments have enraged you more than anybody else's. Heck, I've only made 2 posts in regard to this! You must be confusing me with someone else or lumping several people together.

only buyers or potential buyers add value? That's great. Better stop reading all those car mags cause 99.99% of the time those writers never buy the cars they test or write about.

So, come on, fans. Get on with it. Where is all the decent chatter? The last good post concerned comparisons. Anybody else put deposits down? What else did you consider before doing so?

riez · August 2003

valhs... You wrote, "The 2004 GTO is what it is." True, but as of today we don't know what it is. No one here owns one or has driven one. And the automotive press hasn't had a chance to even test a full production one. All we know is what GM is telling us. Will be interesting to see how that information compares to what real buyers and the auto mag testers say. And, of course, there is no long-term reliability data (e.g., CR). No long-term ownership cost data (e.g., Intellichoice). No crash test data (e.g., NHTSA or IIHS). No purchase price (MSRP vs actual price paid) or lease (e.g., projected vs realized residuals) data.

We're all just having fun discussing a future car. Who knows what the future holds? Though I think we are all hoping the GTO turns out to be a very good car that GM works to improve over time. I don't want to see a Fiero debacle where the first years' cars are junk and it isn't until the final year GM gets it right, just before axing the car. Nor do I want to see a repeat of the Allante or Regatta debacles. Or the sad demise of the Riviera and Tornado. (Heck, can't say I know how to spell these two former Buick products. At least Pontiac keeps the name simple!)

Pontiac GTO

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