Tires, tires, tires

pocahontas · August 2000

Since a number of Firestone topics are cropping up throughout Town Hall, I thought it would be a good idea to create a general Firestone Recall topic in the Maintenance and Repair conference.

For those interested, here's the direct link to Maintenance & Repair Topic 1579, Firestone Tire Recall: Are mine a problem?

Drive safely everyone.

Pocahontas
Town Hall Roving Host

sp01 · August 2000

I have a 95 Stratus ES with 70K on it. At 38k, I got rid of the OEM Michelin Energy tires and purchased Firestone SH30 tires. I also bought rims (went from 15" to 16"). I recommend the Firestones whole-heartedly. The ride is smoother, there is less overall tire noise, the treadware rating is actually higher and the performance is impressive. The wheels, of course are a factor, but I will definitely buy Firestone again. As for Michelin, my 87 Acura Legend came with the Energy tires as well, and I swapped those for Yokohamas after 27K miles. Michelin must make some great tires (Pilot?), but the Energy series just doesn't cut it.

I have also had extremely good experiences with Goodrich T/As over the years, but my understanding is that they are not quite on the leading edge of tire technology.

Be careful about upsizing too far on the 14" steel rims. If you really want to go from 195 to 215, you might want to look into rims as well. Two or three manufacturers have some decent offerings approaching the 50+ offset that is standard for our cloud cars.

tireguy · August 2000

If you go off-road at all, you should go with a tire no smaller than LT235/75R15. If your 4Runner came with 225s, it probably has 6" rims, which are way too small for the 31x10.50R15LT tires which are currently on it--though this is the best size for off-road (as long as your rims are at least 7" wide).
The X-Radial LT is a tire which is only sold by wholesalers (Sams, BJ's, etc.). It is similar to the LTX M/S. Physically, the tires differ in that the LTX M/S has more squared-off tread blocks with slightly more sipes than the X-Radial LT. The LTX M/S also has a slightly higher void tread (more space between the blocks) than the X-Radial LT. These features enhance wet traction. Regarding performance, each will handle like its counterpart, both on the road and off. The casing construction is identical; they are both built for the same purpose. The only reason they differ is so retailers selling the LTX M/S can sell it higher than discounters selling the X-Radial LT, since most discounters buy the tires at such a low cost, they can sell them cheaper than the price at which many retailers/garages buy them. That could cause some tension between the retailers and Michelin if they were both selling the same tire.
On a side note, I've observed the LTX M/S has a greater following of fanatics than the X-Radial LT. They're both extremely high quality tires which do essentially the same thing, but given a choice, and if they were the same price, I'd probably go with the M/S. Sam's Club can get this tire, but they have to special order it, and the price is inflated to encourage sales of the X-Radial LT (though it's still below retail).
In a nutshell, the LTX M/S and the X Radial LT look the same (wider contact patch than competition), do the same (provide THE premium ride), and last the same (a damn long time).
---Chris

btman · August 2000

I was recommended General Grabber AP tires as a replacement for the Firestone ATX tires on my Explorer. Anyone have an opinion on the Generals? The same person (actually 2 people from the tire retailer) said the Goodyear Wrangler R/T is not a good tire & has poor traction. They say the General's are much better.

rajohnson1 · August 2000

I need to replace the Michelin X-Metric tires on my Toyota Camry. I bought the X-Metrics from Costco 50k miles ago. First question: Should I have gotten more than 50k miles from them?

Question 2: Are Costco Michelins as good as the tires you get from a regular dealer? I read all the previous articles about Sam's Club tires being the same except that the name is different to protect the other dealers. Can anyone besides someone who works for Sam's verify this?

Question 3: I went to a "regular" tire dealer and he recommended Toyo tires, and said they were the best of all the tires available in my size. Why have I not seen the Toyo name very much? Is this an example of salesman hype?

Thanks,
Rich

warfish · August 2000

Bridgestone/Firestone off the hook, but I think the real villian in the tire scandal is Ford for selling a product as unstable as the Explorer to a public who has a right to expect a safe vehicle. I'm an older guy who remembers when there was no such thing as tubeless tires. The tires I started with were tubed tires with cotton cords, and since we didn't know any better we used to run them until the cords showed. Blowouts were common, and when you have one the tire defates in about 10 milliseconds. I had several such blowouts and never lost control or had a car flip over, even at high speed. For a car to roll over from a simple tread separation is, in my opinion, a sign of extremely poor design. Every owner of a Ford Explorer should be pressing for a complete refund of their purchase price, plus potential damages.

pocahontas · August 2000

this interesting article about wheels and tires, from Edmund's Editorials: A Look at Your One Vital Link to the Road, by Miles Cook.

Happy Motoring. ;-)

Pocahontas,
Town Hall Roving Host

tireguy · August 2000

I do not work for Sam's Club. I am on officer in the United States Marine Corps. To anyone capable of employing common sense, the fact that one worked in the tire shop full time for four years (all through college) should only enhances one's credibility as an objective commentator. Not only am I impartial, but obscenely well-informed. Now...
Michelin isn't shy about exclaiming the fact that they sell the best tires in the world. Their advertising doesn't push "the best value," it pushes uncomprimised quality. Their prices dictate that their consumers are not the type who would sacrifice quality (however minute) to save money. They seek customers who research their purchases and aren't distracted by the outrageously low prices on the tires of the competition. Do you really think a corporation which strives to make their name synonymous with precision would stamp that good name on a tire deemed below the standard? That's the kind of b/s which is spread by grease monkey service station tire punks who can't figure out any other reason how Sam's can retail the tires lower than they buy them wholesale. I actually had one such kunckle-dragger tell one of my loyal customers that you can tell our tires were not the real thing because--if your were to check--he was sure you'd discover they do not have the "tiny boys" along the tread. He said there was no way we sold the LTX AT in the LT235/75R15 for $94 because he checked his price list and the wholesale price on that tire was $114. The customer thought the guy was on crack, but I showed him what the idiot thought he was talking about. On every Michelin tire there is a little Michelin man (Bib) every couple inches. Even Sam's tires have them--with the exception of the (wholsale club only) X-Radial, X-Radial LT, and X-Radial Plus (which still meet the highest quality standards)--they're the same tires you can buy for 25% more elsewhere.
The Michelin X-Metric is only a 50K mile tire. The warranty has fluctuated from 50 to 60K miles over the years, but you'd have to have to know a little about the functioning of tires and have at least an 8th grade level of common sense to make them last the higher rating.
If it seems like I'm annoyed, it's no illusion. What would I have to gain by lying in a public forum in the interest of increasing sales at a wholesale tire shop which I once worked for, owned by the largest retail corporation in the world? I expend--more than I should--my idle time on Edmunds solely to help complete strangers make informed decisions about their tire selections. While in the course of supporting myself through college, I've acquired an unusual amount of knowledge in this field. Unlike my cohorts, who merely matched old size to new size and mounted away, I actually put some thought into the process. I asked myself why some tires have to cost so much more than others; what provides wet traction; what makes a tire capable of supporting a 10,000# truck. Once every two years I might crack open a few of the volumes in my head as the tread between me and the interstate nears 2/32. I have little use for this kowledge in my present occupation, but the tens of tousands of Americans who buy tires every day just might. And for those who have the good judgement and initiative to research in a place such as this, rather than walking into a tire shop and saying:
"Uh, I need a set of tires."
"Ok, what size?"
"Uh, I don't know."
"Ok, what kind of car?"
"Uh, a red one.. a '92, I think."
...my ears are open. And, time permitting, I'm glad to help.
Secondly, it annoys me as I recall how I felt when I had to deal with those who were so naive as to believe something like that, yet still had the fortitude to rapidly expose this clandestine modus operandi of Sam's Club to their equally mindless lackeys. It was disconcerting enough when I couldn't get through to some people what a good deal it was to buy tires at our shop. That factor increased ten-fold when they entered my shop with the misperception that they were being deceived. Why do people always need an explanation when something looks too good to be a good thing? It's okay to be skeptical, but don't abandon reason. Why can't you just trust someone (not working for commission) and take advantage of what has been offered to you? If you really want an explanation, read Sam Walton's Made in America, and you'll learn his methods of "buying it low, stacking it high, selling it cheap."
When your tire division sells millions of them each week, I think the manufacturers will cut you a slightly better deal than Shemp's Service Center, who might sell two sets on a Saturday.

warfish · August 2000

OH MY GOD you are in love with yourself!!!!
Just because you are a Marine Corp officer doesn't make you even close to being a tire expert. If you knew anything at all about driving a truck in the snow you would know the tires Michelin sells as LT types are deathtraps. They are so slick when the going gets greasey that most everyone I know can't wait to get them off.
I am a volunteer ambulance driver and we have two rigs that came with Michelins. The first rig went off the road on a gentle curve that the driver, (not me), had driven hundreds of times. That was on it's first trip out. We soon found out all the other small town Ambulance Corps already knew better than to trust Michelins and refused to take delivery until Goodyears were put on. Both rigs now run Goodyears and they hold the road like on rails.
Before I had 2000 miles on my '01 Dodge ram 2500 I got rid of the Michelins and the truck went from a poor handling tub to a dream to drive.
You go ahead and believe the hype you see on TV with the cute little tyke in the tire if it pleases you, but it's just that, hype.
I know this will not deflate your huge ego, but I can see through you like a pane of glass.
I've probably lived about 40 more years than you and maybe there's hope for you yet when you've lived in the real world for a little while.

joe166 · August 2000

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but tireguy has only been a Marine Officer for a few weeks. I don't think the many many posts that he has made and the good information that he has given to us on this topic is based on his training in Platoon Leaders school. It is apparently based on his experiences as a tire guy at the store he worked in. He may not always be right, but his information seems to me to be logical, based on some observation of his own and certainly as worthy of credence as an anecdotal reference to your personal experiences as a volunteer ambulance driver. I also think your age is kind of irrelevant. Maybe you would be better off reviewing the 129 posts that preceded yours before you start name calling and pejorative comments. I think you are out of line, but then again that is just my opinion and like noses (and other body parts) everyone should have at least one.

silvercoupe · August 2000

If you swear by Goodyear it only proves one thing to me -- you don't know much about tires.

warfish · August 2000

I don't doubt that tireguy knows something about tires. I do question that he knows 'everything' about tires as he seems to claim. Working in a tire store doesn't make anyone a tire expert any more than working in a diner would make one a 5 star chef.
silvercoupe: I don't necessarily swear by Goodyear but I do swear at Michelin and I believe very strongly in personal experience and not at all in what I see and hear as advertised hyperbole.

silvercoupe · August 2000

I have been following these tire boards for several months now, and I think that Tireguy probably knows more about tires than any other poster. Probably more than all other posters put together.

As far as Goodyear vs Michelin, you may know of one example where a particular Goodyear tire performs better than a particular Michelin tire. That is not a very good argument for Goodyear vs Michelin in general. I can tell you from personal experience that in several cases I have replaced Goodyears with Michelins and been much happier. But hey, I don't drive an ambulance.

warfish · August 2000

The tires I put on my truck to replace the Michelins are Uniroyal Laredos, chosen mainly because they fit the wider rims that came on the truck better than other replacements. The improvement in ride and handling is outstanding.
I don't question that some particular Michelins may be better than some other brands, but I've had nothing but bad luck with the Michelins that come on new vehicles. I've never bought a set from a tire store and probably never will.

tireguy · August 2000

You're right. Growing up in Pennsylvania with a father whose idea of a family outing would be to pile the kids into the F250 4x4 to go romping through the snow before the plows ruined it, probably wouldn't qualify me as one "who knows anything at all about driving a truck in the snow." Or maybe I knew what a Detroit Locker was before my peers had their learner's permits.
Anyone who knows anything about public speaking knows the function of a trigger word. I can imagine the dimly lit light bulbs which must flicker to life when a Korean War-Era enlisted swabbie reads "USMC Officer." Though your belligerent ramblings did make one point: my position as an O-1Ein the military does not qualify me as a tire expert. Bravo. And the 4+ years I came home five nights a week with black streaks up to my elbows, grease under my fingernails, brake dust densely packed in my nostrils, a depth gauge in my pocket and images of out-of-round Goodyears on my mind didn't qualify me as a college student, but guess what? I was; imagine that. Oh, wait... I must have pursued that activity elsewhere. Yes, it's true: one can endure different occupations in the same lifetime. Not everyone is stuck labeling himself a volunteer ambulance driver. However, I never have claimed, and never will claim to be an expert, nor to know everything about anything. You should read more carefully before you throw out these sophomoric accusations.
So your squad has made the conversion from Michelin to Goodyear? Well, your municipality is in my prayers. Not only are they misfortunate enough to lack professional emergency care, but they have YOU buying their ambulances' tires for them. Oh, but I probably don't know anything about being in a squad, aside from the fact that I did it as a kid when I thought it was cool to play fireman. I was certified in vehicle rescue and firefighting. Disentanglement, thermal layering--yeah, I knew all about that s--t. How many of our three International Harvester 2100s DIDN'T get involved in a major head-on collision in the time I was there? ZERO! And it always happened in the snow. Did it have anything to do with the tires (assisted by on-spots)? Goodyear G159s, they were, so THAT couldn't have been it! Or did it have something to do with the fact that volunteers are not required to have a CDL, receive no formal training, and don't understand that a 15,000# ambulance handles a bit different from their 5,000# (recently de-Michelined) blue-light equipped Dodge Ram? Perhaps you're familiar with the squad term "Whacker?" I'm sure you hear it a lot when your back is turned.
Nothing against volunteers--there are a lot of brave soles who humbly risk their lives every day, exposing themselves to fire or disease solely in the name of their love for human life. But there are a lot of self-proclaimed "heroes" out there who are cast from a different mold. They think they know it all, and their arrogant indiscretion has an adverse effect on those around them. This kind of attitude is more infectious than anything else EMTs are exposed to.
Guys like you are the reason I got out.

grubbs1 · August 2000

Just bought a Nissan Frontier King Cab 4x2 last month and I want to get larger tires. I will keep the wheels. The current size is p215/65R15. The reason for the change is simply for looks and to get a little bit more ground clearance. Ideally, I would like something that is relatively quiet on pavement since most of my driving will be to commute to work. Thanks all!

warfish · August 2000

Thanks for putting me in my place. I know 28 years in the US Navy Submarine Service doesn't qualify me as an expert in anything except how to keep myself and 116 other highly trained and dedicated men under my command alive and still do our job protecting you and yours.
I will sign off from this useless debate now, knowing you will never achieve in your lifetime what I have, and were it not for your crowing about being an O-1E I wouldn't have even mentioned it.
Enjoy your life as a superior individual.

tireguy · August 2000

Now that the random discreditor has left the scene we can get back to tires. Depending on what you seek to do with your truck, you can give it more of a performance look by upgrading to 235/60R15s. They will have basically the same sidewall height, but be almost an inch wider. The 235/70R15 should be about the largest tire you can go with (almost an inch wider and just over an inch taller, varying by manufacturer, of course). Just make sure (by checking the placard on your door) that you have at least 6" wide rims (7" would be even better). Check the clearance by turning the wheels lock to lock before making the purchase. They should fit, but just to be sure, check it yourself. There's nothing scientific or technical about it; it's just a matter of positioning the wheel at each limit and observing how much space is left before a tire would rub on something. Consider where the wheel will be as it moves through the suspension's range of motion, as well.
I would recommend the BFG Radial T/A. It's a decent, sporty, raised-white letter tire in the $60 range. Going with a larger tire will not only improve handling, but also increase load-carrying ability.
---Chris

akangl · August 2000

I have a 99 Nissan Quest SE that I bought in June. It currently has OEM Goodyear Eagle LS on it which are great summer tires. I live in Alaska and really do need to put winter tires on it I think. I am used to having 4WD so this is going to be different driving front wheel drive this winter. I will not buy studded tires, I can't stand the noise. I have used Bridgestone Blizzak tires on different vehicles for the past 2 winters, they are good tires for the most part. My big hesitations with buying them this winter are #1 I want a tires that will still have good winter traction past 50% tread (Blizzaks do not) and #2 with this whole Bridgestone/Firestone thing I wonder if the whole company will be driven under thus leaving me with a set of tires that can't be replaced if one goes bad. I know there are other tires out there that are similar to the Blizzak but are they as good? Any advise? Thanks.

kyleknicks · August 2000

Hi! Im wondering what's a good tire to put on my 91 GMC Jimmy 2wdrive. I was considering Pirelli Scorpion A/S. How are these tires in comparison to other much more expensive tires.

I would appreciate suggestions for tires for my truck too..... i do 100% highway and city driving and consider wet traction, quietness and tread-wear the highest priority.

Also, for those of you who bought from Tirerack.com, how much did it cost you to have your tires/rims mounted at a local shop??
Thanks for any info!! Kyle

tireguy · August 2000

For your vehicle, a 4x2 Jimmy which never veers off the pavement, I would recommend the BF Goodrich Radial T/A. It's a very good tire for the money, and has been a top seller for decades. The size you go with depends on what kind of handling/appearance you desire, and how limited you are with respect to rim width and wheel-well clearance. You probably have the 15x6" steel wheels, in which case I would recommend the 225/70R15. If you have the optional 7" rims (you can tell by the placard on the driver's door), you might want to look at the wider 235/70R15.
If you frequently drive in snow, you should consider a tire in the 215/75R15 size. This size gives you a more narrow, yet tall tire which will better dig down in the snow and slush to the road surface. The best all-season tire made for this type of SUV is the Michelin LTX M/S, but you will be paying significantly more for this tire, compared to the afforementioned option. You can go with basically any broadline tire from a 205/75R15 up. Most of the truck-type P-metric tires are designed more for 4x4 trucks, but are fine for your truck (only you don't really need these tires, which are generally more expensive).
Just avoid whitewalls. No reason. I just hate SUVs with whitewalls--serious pet peeve. It just looks goofy. People will point and laugh at you. But nothing is worse than an SUV with woodgrain sides and whitewalls. What was Jeep thinking with that 9- Grand Wagoneer?
I would not recommend any product by Pirelli-Armstrong. I had to deal with these tires for several years until the corporate buyers finally came to their senses and dropped them.
The tirerack sends you tires and wheels already mounted and balanced. Installing them is a matter of
1) setting the brake and chocking a wheel
2) loosening each lug nut 1/4 turn
3) jacking a corner
4) removing lug nuts and the wheel
5) installing new wheel
6) installing the lug nuts (just snug) in a star pattern
a) If you order new wheels you might need lug nuts which fit the different coutour of the holes in the rim.
7) lowering the vehicle
8) torquing the lug nuts to the recommended setting (around 100 ft-lbs), again in a star pattern
9) repeating steps 3-8 until you run out of wheels
A shop will charge anywhere from $20-$40 just for their labor. For most it's easier to do it yourself than go through the hassle of making an appiontment, taking it in, wasting your time while you wait... Plus you get that warm, fuzzy "I did it myself" feeling when you're finished. It's also a great time to teach your wife how to change a flat tire.
Also- if you purchase new wheels which are wider and have more of a negative offset, your selection of compatable sizes is greatly expanded.
--Chris

agtabby · September 2000

I have a '99 Ford Contour LX with 185/70 R14 General tires, yes, they truly are junk. I recently purchased a set of used 15" alloys from another contour owner, I am looking for tires.

My goals are: low noise, long wear, and better handling in that order. I am thinking about Michelin X-ones, I've heard that they are a very quiet tire. Any comments or alternatives?

Also, using the tire sizing formula I can either use a 195 or a 205 size and come within a few % in tire diameter. I assume that the slightly wider tire would give me better handling, with the wider contact patch.

Tanks in advance for any comments, Andrew

marquisbrougha · September 2000

<<#142 of 145: Kyleknicks (tireguy) Thu 31 Aug '00 (03:27 PM).... Just avoid whitewalls. No reason. I just hate SUVs with whitewalls--serious pet peeve. It just looks goofy. People will point and laugh at you. But nothing is worse than an SUV with woodgrain sides and whitewalls. What was Jeep thinking with that 9- Grand Wagoneer?>>

Everything Kyleknicks said is correct EXCEPT for the above quote. If you get a passenger (street) tire might as well go with a white stripe - gives the wheel/tire a finished look...especially if you dress the tire and get that nice contrast.

I like it (although my neighbor doesn't keep his Jimmy wws clean - or the Jimmy itself - annoys me). But then I wash the cars once a week and
touch up during the week.

Go for the whitewalls..it gives the car a new look if it came with bws.

PS: the 93 Grand Wagonneer did not have factory wws.

tireguy · September 2000

No, the two tires are not the same. The Radial T/A is a time-proven road tire which is favored by street-rodders and owners of sport trucks. The Radial Long Trail T/A is made more for small SUVs or 4x4 trucks. It utilizes an asymmetrical tread, which I guess I should explain:
There are two basic types of shoulders found on tires, those which are solid (with a continuous block circumventing the tire) and the high void type (separate blocks with space in between to allow the tire to bite in mud or snow). When you take a hard turn, the outboard tread portion of your outer front tire takes most of the force of the turn. An asymmetrical tire uses a solid shoulder on the outer portion to stabilize the tire in turns. Having a continuous tread block sacrifices traction, so they compensate by using a high void design on the inner shoulder, where stability is less of an issue, but traction will be a benefit. In theory, it looks great.
In reality it's a gimmick. The best tires on the road use simple, symmetrical designs. The only reason you would need an asymmetrical design would be to compensate for flimsy sidewalls which would foster this environment of excessive roll. A good tire will adequately support the weight of the vehicle, and will stay flatter when subjected to hard cornering. I would never want a tire which sacrifices traction where it is most important (on either shoulder) to make up for its shortcomings in sidewall construction.
Going from a 205/75R15 to a 225/70R15 will greatly improve both cornering and braking. I've seen gas mileage go either way, depending on how you drive. Going with larger tires is like driving in a slightly higher gear--essentially, you have a higher top speed, but it takes longer to get there (wind resistance and governing devices notwithstanding). On one hand, not only is the 225/70 a wider, but a taller tire; the engine will turn slower to maintain any given speed. Lower RPM=lower fuel consumption.
On the other hand, it will take longer to get the vehicle moving, so some drivers have a tendency to be a little more heavy on the throttle. Foot closer to the floor=higher fuel consumption. However, this change is so small, the differences in fuel consumption are hardly noteworthy. The biggest factor affecting fuel consumption is tire pressure. Closer to the maximum pressure (stamped on the tire) you will have less rolling resistance and achieve the best mileage, but overinflating the tire without carrying a substantial load will cause the inside of the tread to wear prematurely. Riding at the really high pressures will also shake the heck out of you and your vehicle.
--Chris

bvolk · September 2000

17" tires and tread wear.

I have been looking at new cars that rate very high and many have 17 inch tires. I checked the tread wear rating on the tire on the I-30 and it was 160!!! The car had about 5000 miles on it and the tires looked half worn out. Checked the cost of replacements before I purchased the car and found out the tires were $200 each. Only one manufacture made the tire on the I-30. I canned the purchased at once - the dealer admitted that the replacement tires were "sort of expensive" . I have owned 10 cars with four kids and found the tread wear rating to be an excellent indicator of tire wear. Each manufacture has their own rating scale, but a 160 rating tire is a 20,000 mile tire while at 500 rating tire is easily above 50,000 and on my cars close to 70,000 miles. This includes Goodyear, Firestone, Michelin and many discount tires. Wear ratings on a tire are an excellent indicator of miles to be expected. Some tire stores don't like your questions on tread wear rating, but when pushed to actually look them up on the tires they want to sell you - acutal tires they will put on your car - often change the tune and tell you of a better tire wear for the money.

For the record, I have a new Buick with tires that have a tread wear of 460 or 480 -forgot that, after 20,000 miles it is hard to see any wear.

Caution, anybody that buys a car with 17" tires better be ready for an $800 tire replacement bill (all 4).

bonjorno · September 2000

I will be buying tires for my 95 Acura Integra LS this week (195/60 R14 85H). The present tires are Michelin XGT H4 M&S. I think that they have been pretty good, but I don't have any basis for comparison. Is there another choice that would offer some performance improvements on this car without degrading other attributes from where they are now? I am considering BF Goodrich Comp T/A HR4-2 but I don't know how they compare to my Michelins. (Tirerack hasn't posted any info on XGTs for comparison sake). In what ways does one outperform the other? Can someone tell me what differences (both good and bad) to expect to help me with the decision? Keep in mind that I'm in NJ and wish to continue not changing tires in the winter. (How do they compare for winter driving? or in wet weather?) Although these things are important, my primary concern is still high sporty performance. Noise isn't too much of a concern, but if it could be improved without sacrifice, then great. (XGTs are loud but livable).

Oh also, if you think I'm missing the boat by limiting myself to these two choices, feel free to set me straight.

pat84 · September 2000

Trevor,
I don't think anyone has answered your question about tires for your wife's 240. I had a 95 240SX. I put Pirelli P7000s on it. It handled in the rain like it wasn't there. These were the best tires I ever owned.

sneville · September 2000

What replacement tires do you recommend for a 1998 Volvo X70. They came with michelins - MXV4 which have worn thin now at 45,000 miles. I don't know the difference between the available MXV4+ and Pilot XGT H4, both by Michelin. Have heard that some Michelins are poor in rain. Live in the SF Bay Area so need a versatile tire for all conditions. Heat and snow.

Thanks

s.

bjklinton · September 2000

i have a new car (8K miles) and need to get a rotate balance soon. the car has alloy wheels, and am wondering if there is a wheel weight that can be attached without damaging the clear coat. i've seen the stick-on type, but wondered if there was some type maybe with a plastic clad steel clip that wouldn't damage / scratch the clear coat. in other words, when checking out tire shops, i need to know what to ask for to see if they are a quality shop. in the past i've had wheels damaged from the normal wheel weights. that's not going to happen anymore. i've also had rotors warped from air guns. at your tire shop did you tighten lugs with air gun, or "old fashioned" torque wrench?

sneville · September 2000

with regard to my earlier post, #151, I meant to say the car is a Volvo S70.

violator2 · September 2000

bonjorno,

The BFGoodrich HR4-2 tires are really good for the price. They are probably on the same level as the XGT's on your car now, but they will provide better handling and they will be better in the rain and snow. Plus, I believe those have a treadwear rating in the vicinity of 300.

My friend replaced the XGT v-rated tires on his 92 Integra with BFGoodrich Comp TA VR4 tires and they were a big improvement.

You may also want to look into Yokohama Avid H4 or V4 tires as well as Bridgestone Turanza Revo tires. And Pirelli P7000 tires may be good for you. I would stay away from Michelin and GoodYear tires. They are overpriced and generally loud(Michelin).

sneville,

The Michelin Pilot series stinks! I have Pilot XGT V4s on my car and they are loud, hard, and are poor in the rain. The regular MXV4 is again hard and loud.

Try a set of Yokohama Avid H4 or V4 tires or Bridgestone Revo tires. I'm on my second set of Avid H4 tires on my parents Lexus ES300. The first set lasted about 45K miles. These tires are not the best for handling as they are H-rated but they do handle better than the MXV4s and they ride much quieter and produce a smoother ride. A friend installed the Bridgestone Turanza Revo tires and they are slightly better than the Avid tires in terms of handling. But they are basically just as quiet and smooth riding as the Avids. Both have very good prices too.

sneville · September 2000

with regard to my earlier post, #151, I meant to say the car is a Volvo S70.

sneville · September 2000

violator2,

thanks for the opinion. it gives me more to think about.

heng · September 2000

You are making it sound too technical and as you already demonstrated, the formula doesn't work.

You are making a lot of assumptions.
1)at the max mfgr's pressure and load for tire you assume the tire is going to wear properly. Not true, it just shouldn't blow up.
2)then you are trying to ratio that ideal pressure/load back to the GVWR for the axle. But you only accounted for one tire on the axle.
3)you assume you are running at the GVWR of the axle which you aren't.

Go with the common sense approach which you already use - run the pressure that gives the most even wear.

tireguy · September 2000

I disagree with everything Violator2 wrote, with the exception of his anti-Goodyear statement.
The XGT H4 is one of the best tires Michelin ever made. The large triangular tread blocks gave it tremendous cornering ability. I never heard any complaints about the wet traction, and I've seen them last more than twice the 50K mile warranty. But they don't make them anymore. You might find some old ones in a warehouse somewhere, but they're basically finished.
The Pilot XGT H/V4 has replaced it. This tire is equally great, providing outstanding handling and traction. They don't usually last quite as long as the old XGT V4s, but they use nearly every feature in Michelin's performance tire bag-o-tricks (including XSE technology--silica compound--which the XGT4 didn't have). I would recommend them over the BF Goodrich Comp T/A without a second thought.
Anyone who thinks the Comp T/A HR4 is even comparable to the XGT H4 needs to stop drinking the bong water. There is no comparison between any Michelin tire and any BF Goodrich tire because BF Goodrich doesn't make tires--they make toothpaste additives and aerospace components. Michelin took them over two decades ago and proceeded to make tires under the BF Goodrich name--of a lower grade than their Michelin line. They understand that not everyone needs the best you can get, and rather than make a few slacking models of Michelin to appease those customers, they maintained their namesake at the pinnacle of the industry and made lesser tires under the BFG name. Not that BFGs are bad tires. They're just not as good as the Michelins. This is intentional; it is a matter of pure fact.
Avoid Bridgestone (a.k.a. Bridgestone-Firestone). I'd advise just sticking with the brand which has worked for you thus far.
-----Chris

tireguy · September 2000

Funny name.
As long as coated weights of the proper contour are used, your rims will emerge unscathed. I don't know what kind of car you have, but I posted a list a ways back which basically broke down which manufacturers are using which type of weight. Sam's Club is the only nationwide tire shop I've seen which stocks the majority of alloy wheel weights on the road today. I think they currently have 7 different varieties of coated alloy weights in stock.
I no longer work in a tire shop. Yesterday my buddy and I took his Ranger (alloy wheels) in for new tires. I asked the bonehead tire monkey if they had MCs in stock--this wasn't at Sam's, it was at the base auto hobby shop--and he said they did. So he did the job, and the vehicle was given to us with AWs whacked along the flanks. They were the wrong weights; he damaged the wheels by using them. I drug him outside and showed him his blunder, but he insisted that they WERE MCs. So I walked him over to a 97 Tahoe with the original weights and showed him what an MC looks like. He just shrugged his shoulders and said "we only stock one type of steel weight and one type of alloy weight. That's all there is." He honestly couldn't care less that there are a dozen different types of alloy wheel weights or that he had just gouged the heck out of the Ranger's rims. It's enough to make you want to lay down a thousand bucks on a used tire changer and balancer just so you can do it yourself and know it's done right.
Check the weights which are currently on the vehicle. They should have a number, followed by a letter (or two), followed by a number. They represent the weight in ounces, the type (MC, AW, P, LHS...), and the weight in grams, respectively.
Your wheels shouldn't even need balancing yet. Unless you're feeling serious vibrations, hold off. Just rotate them.
Leave it up to the techician's discretion whether to use an impact tool or a torque wrench. It all depends on the individual's comfort level. Some use torque wrenches; some use torque limiters on impact tools (which usually results in undertorque). I used a observative method of torque-to-yield in which I could tell by the hammer blows and the final rotation of the lug nearly exactly how tight. It worked for me. Of the thousands of wheels I installed, I never had one customer come back complaining of warped rotors, nor did any depart the vehicle while under way (more common than you'd think). Torque wrenches have to be recalibrated every few months. Almost no tire shops do this. For me, I could judge it more accurately with my senses than one could with an overdue tq wrench which has been droppped daily. But I wouldn't want Joe Firstdayonjob to attempt my method. Just go to a professional shop and assume they know how to do their jobs.
-----Chris

tireguy · September 2000

It's so complex, you can't figure it out with such simple equations, yet the best way to go about it is so easy, your little sister could do it.
Ignore the GVWR, unless you plan on driving the truck around fully loaded to its gross weight 100% of the time. You're on the right track with the Tahoe. If you are not supplying adequate pressure, the shoulders will wear. If you overinflate with respect to the load you plan to support, wear will be focused along the center.
Do not be afraid to deviate from the factory pressure. This is only a starting point since GM has no idea whether the person who buys this SUV will load it full of tack and pull a horse trailer or never load it with more than six bags of groceries and 2.5 kids. Your paper method might give you an idea, but since you're one of those ME geeks, I'd recommend purchasing a pyrometer, and taking readings across the tread (at 3 or 5 points), checking for thermal differentiation. Hot on the shoulders=future wear on the shoulders, and vice versa.
Unless you have a Vortec supercharger or a 502 crate motor under the hood, you do not need an H rated tire for the Tahoe. I'm assuming you're talking about the Pilot LTX. You'd be better off with the LTX M/S, 265/75R16.

bonjorno · September 2000

Thanks for both of your posts. I appreciated the differing viewpoints. I'm still on the fence so here's what I think I'll do. I only need two tires now. (Actually I only need one tire, as I ran over and imbedded a jagged piece of metal which put a slice in the tire. A patch and several cans of fix-a-flat have not been able to stop the slow leak so I need to replace it. But I don't want to buy just one tire, I'd prefer to buy in sets of two or four. So I'll throw away the damaged tire and keep the opposite side tire in my basement as a spare, and buy two new ones.) The remaining tires have loads of tread left on them. (You're right tire guy - The car has 30K miles, and the XGT's look as if they might be able to go to 60K at this rate.) If I buy two BFG Comp T/A's and put them on the front, I'll be able to tell first hand which I like better. If I like them, they'll stay there. If not, I'll rotate them to the back where they're not asked to do as much. It's a crude test, but should at least tell me some differences in cornering, wet, snow, and should give me an indication of which are quieter. (Yes, testing with all four being the same would be better, but this should be okay. Besides, I already know how XGT's handle.) I'll post my findings when I'm done for those who are interested in a comparison of the two.

bjklinton · September 2000

Thanks so much for all the good info. I'll check weights next opportunity to see what type. No vibration at all, so I'll take your advice and rotate only.
Still need your input though on how to select a quality shop. Maybe some key questions to ask? What to look for? I view tires / wheels as a "profession" that requires skill, and those wheels aren't gonna be touched till I find the right shop. Can tell from your posts that you are a pro, and Sam's lost a good employee.
What rank are you going into USMC?
Re; screen name, BJ doesn't stand for Billy Joe. LOL.

tireguy · September 2000

Once upon a time I was a corporal, now I'm a 2nd lieutenant.
You can tell a lot about a shop's level of professionalism by the neatness of their facility, equipment and employees. If thier equipment is covered in grease and brake dust, their garage hasn't been swept in a year and is littered with old tires and batteries, you can assume they'll treat your vehicle just as carelessly.
Talk to the guys who will be working on your car. It's not hard to identify someone in his first week on the job (the biggest problem at most wholesale clubs). And it never hurts to tip beforehand.
Chris

bjklinton · September 2000

CONGRATS on going from corporal to 2nd Lt. (how did you do that?) I have family that is career military, and pray you both will have a much better "CIC" than the last 7+ years!!!
I had the "clean shop" part figured out, but not the tipping practice. Not a problem, as long as I get what I'm paying for. Thought I might approach the dealer so see if I can achieve desired results. Thanks for the good info. BTW, what type of unit will you be assigned to in USMC?

ryster · September 2000

Hi!

Just wondering if anyone has any experience with the Yokohama AVID T4 tire? Or Yokohama tires in general? Giving some consideration to these as replacements on my '99 Camaro. The car currently has the original Goodyear Eagle GA tires, but they will need to be replaced in the next month or so (20,000 miles...ugh).

The Goodyears have very poor resistance to aquaplaning. Treadwear has been disappointing (I need to start in second gear very frequently now on rainy days). When new they did a great job in dry, rain, and snow. Their traction is decreasing very quickly as they wear. Granted, they are pretty quiet and handle fairly well (from a cornering ability standpoint). Overall, however, I do not feel they accentuate the handling potential of the car.

If anyone has run Yokohamas, please feel free to offer any comments on the tires. Neither myself, nor anyone in my family, has ever purchased Yokohama tires so I am having trouble getting any feedback.

Thanks!!

jeffmust2 · September 2000

I purchased a used '95 LS400 and its a great car - but the Goodyear Eagle GAs (225x60x16) that came on it are very poor performers, even in LA with 99% sunshine.

It's finally time to replace the set - but I don't want to put expensive, high-performance rubber on a vehicle with a touring type suspension that can't take advantage of it. I'd like to go with a Michelin brand if possible.

What do you think? In advance, I appreciate your reply.

Jeff

erasbury · September 2000

I have a set of Michelin X-1's on a Mercedes 300D that I was extremely happy with. IMO, they are the best compromise between traction/high performance/treadwear on the market. They gave the Merc a very smooth ride, as well.

That was about 2 years ago, so I don't know what is the newest version of that tire, but I'd certainly give it some consideration.

I currently have Goodyear RSA's on a 2000 Monte Carlo SS. They won't last near as long as the X-1's, so I'll probably switch to the Michelin when it's time for new rubber.

Good luck!

bbroocks · September 2000

I am considering getting some Dunlop Radial RV tires for my Z71. These tires are labeled as all-terrain and are slightly less aggressive than the Radial Mud Rovers. Does anyone know how these compare in quality, ride, gas mileage, etc. to the BFG TA Radials that seem to be so popular? The sales clerk CLAIMS that they are quieter and provide a better ride. Also, does anyone know of a good place, other than tirerack.com to get good tire comparison data? Thanks!

enigmaone · September 2000

ryster,

I have experience with Yokohama Avid H4 tires. Overall they are excellent tires. They give a very smooth & quiet ride. The handling is not that great mainly because they are tailored more for ride & comfort than performance. But handling is still adequate with the H4s. The first set lasted 50K miles and I liked them so I purchased another set. The Avid T4 tires should last even longer since they have a slightly harder rubber compound.

jeffmust2,

THe Eagle GAs are pretty crappy tires. I never understood why Lexus installed such sub-par tires on the LS400.

I've suggested some good choices before. First, for the LS400, the MXV4 would actually be a good choice since the hardness of the MXV4 really won't be noticed that much in a smooth riding LS400. But The Yokohama Avid V4 or Bridgestone Turanza Revo H or V-series should fill your needs quite well. And personally, these 2 model of tires are the best tires you can buy right now for the money, as far as "touring" tires go. They would work well with the ride/handling characteristics of the LS400. And guaranteed that both will be much better than the Eagle GAs in just about every respect.

heng · September 2000

the Michelin X-ones are a big improvement in steering response and lateral grip over Goodyear LSs. They will also last twice as long.

aeroscott · September 2000

I'm looking for a new set of tires for my AWD Aerostar and am considering the Michelin Symmetry. The one concern I have is fuel efficiency. They have a 'compliance cushion' under the tread that I can't help but believe increases rolling resistance (altho it might marginally help snow traction). Anybody have experience with this tire in regards to fuel efficiency and snow traction?

warnerf · September 2000

Jeffmust2:

I think I'm qualified to compare these 2 tires because I had both on my car and drove them on the same roads. I now have the MXV4s. Both are world class touring tires and you'll do fine with either one but here, IMO, is how they stack up against each other:

Looks: MXV4+
The Michelins have a beautiful sidewall design with large bold letters along with scripted highlights as well as ribbed concentric patterns.
The Revo sidewall design is nice too, just not as nice.

Handling: MXV4+
The MXV4+ provides more road grip and a little less body roll in the corners

Smoothness: Turanza Revo
Both tires soak up the nasty stuff equally well. This includes lane dividers, expansion joints, etc. The Revos, however soak up normal road imperfections a bit better than the MXV4+s.

As for the Eagle GAs, I don't think Lexus has a formal agreement with Michelin. My local tire shop, who happens to be right across the street from a Lexus dealer, tells me that in almost all cases, the OEM Good Years get replaced with Michelins.

Good Luck

tireguy · September 2000

I think we should rename this forum as "anyone who cares about his/her car must buy Michelins."
That's what the majority of us who know what we're talking about have been saying in 175 responses, but we can't just come out and say something so blunt without support. Well, we now have several hundred entries in support, so one of us might as well come out and say it for the layman.
It's not a question as to which tire you go with, it's a question of which Michelin. If you're considering Yokohamas or Bridgestones for the sake of saving 10-20%, then you don't truly worship your car and you don't belong in this forum. It all comes down to what is best... not with respect to the dollar amount, but absolutely the best.
All you have to do is read the scores of posts dating back to this forum's commencement, and you'll be convinced. Read: THE TRUTH--THERE IS MICHELIN; AND THERE IS COMPROMISE. Yes, there are several nay sayers. And there are some who take their first spoonful of caviar and spit it out, exclaiming "Uggh, fish eggs!" That hardly detracts from its stature as a delicacy.
Now, please... stop asking silly questions which have been answered in triplicate throughout scores of previous posts.
You know who you are.

No, JeffMust2, I'm not speaking of you. Go with the Energy MXV4 Plus. Maintain the speed rating. Do not consider the X-One. What is applicable to a lethargic Mercedes Diesel is not to a high-speed touring Lexus. The X-One is T rated, the MXV4 bears the higher H or V rating. The X-One lacks the "Banded at Zero degrees (BAZ)" circumferential polyamide belts which make high speed cruising so like butta' as you motor down the interstate. Do not downgrade the performance of your automobile.
--Chris

Tires, tires, tires

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