Tires, tires, tires

porknbeans · October 2002

Nice to see that you can take a joke. And, no I haven't heard anything about the DOT on these. Come to think of it, I've never even heard of the manufacturer until you posted them here. A co-worker that sits next to me here at work thinks that they would look great on an old Jeep that he used to own. I have to agree with him that they would look, and assumedly work, very well for off-roading.

BTW, when you find the lift kit for the Passat let me know and I'll come over and help you put these on.

alfox · October 2002

It's the fender flare kit that scares me!

bobatwork · October 2002

Hi all,

Wife's 2000 Camary with 19,000 miles needs new tires per NY State Inspection station assessment. She drives primarily locally, 5 or 6 miles a day. Maybe 8 times a year she will drive a 150 mile round trip to baby-sit for one set of grand kids. I think we also made 3 1500 mile round trips since we have the car. I usually drive us to the grand kids other times with my leased car.

Any recommendations on which tires to buy? It is a 4 cylinder Camary.
Also, wasn't 19,000 miles somewhat early to have to buy new tires? Thanks in advance from geezer Bob in NY.

alfox · October 2002

You in NY or AL (per your profile)? Difference in weather might make a difference in tires.

What tires were on the car originally that wore out in 19,000 miles?

How did they wear - evenly across the whole tire, or more on the edges?

What's a Camary?

porknbeans · October 2002

19000 does seem early to have to replace tires, but talking isn't making your tread any deeper and the state any happier, so here is what I would suggest. I'm assuming that you want the ride to be the same as you have been experiencing, unless of course the wife has started turning corners on two wheels.

If price is an issue I would suggest the Cooper Lifeliner Classic II, if you can pay for them go with the Michelin X-One or Symmetry. Hope this helps and let us know what you decide.

kominsky · October 2002

I posted this on the winter tire board, but there seems to be much more traffic here.

Anyone have experience with Semperit winter tires? I have a coworker who has the Sport Grips on his A4 and considers them excellent. He is, however, the only person I've talked to who has any experience with them. Any opinions/experiences would be welcome. This is for a BMW 330Ci and I'm in S.E. PA where we don't get a whole lot of snow (more ice and slush), but I live in farm country where removal doesn't always happen very rapidly when we do get snow. Thanks!

downeaster16 · October 2002

In my experience, Toyota seems to cut corners on their OEM tires. My 2002 Camry came with T-rated Goodyear Integrity tires. They are not worn out, but I'm about ready to replace them, as I'm not impressed with them overall and I don't believe they would handle winter weather well (even as well as the average all-season). Besides, I doubt they'd make it to 30k miles at the rate they are wearing. If I stick with a T-rated, I'd go with the Michelin X-One or the BFG Control T/A M80, based on what I've read so far. If I go to an H-rated (my last Camry had H-rated tires), then I'd go with the Dunlop SP Sport A2, again, based on what I've read so far.

I would appreciate any comments anyone may have on any and all of these options. I do about 25k miles of driving each year, mainly on rural 2-lane highways (with some interstate as well), in a four-season climate. I might push the speed limit envelope a bit, but overall I'm pretty gentle with my car. So, I'm looking for the best possible combination of quietness, comfort, all-season traction and treadwear. I probably should get snow tires for the winter, but I'm looking to see if I can get away with an all-season with reasonably good winter performance (the road crews here are usually pretty good at keeping our roads in good shape in winter).

Thanks for any feedback you can give me.

malachy72 · October 2002

what tires to buy, but if there is a Costco or BJ's club near you, it would pay the membership fee with the money you would save on Michelin.

downeaster16 · October 2002

Hello! I've been calling tire shops in my area to ask about the tires I am trying to choose from for my Camry, and the results I've had so far have been interesting. I thought I'd share them to see what you think.

One local Michelin dealer didn't think that Michelin still made the X-One (so much for knowledgeable sales staff!). This did not inspire much confidence in me! A person at another tire shop (who did seem knowledgeable to me) said that they didn't recommend the X-One because their customers, in general, have not had good experiences with it, meaning that the tire did not last as long as Michelin says it does (roads can be tough here in Maine) and did not perform as well, either. This person recommended the Nokian NRW as the best all-season choice, while agreeing that the Dunlop SP Sport A2 was a good tire. That reaction to the X-One surprised me, because it goes against what Consumer Reports says (when I mentioned the X-One, the salesperson immediately said, "So you're been reading Consumer Reports!" and went on to downplay the X-One), as well as the generally positive reviews at tirerack.com.

I had NRW's on my last car, and I was very pleased with them. The only "down" side to them, in my experience, was some tire noise that was audible in the 20-35 mph range. They were quiet at highway speeds. They are very good in snow and slush, and pretty good in the wet (even if CR doesn't think so). I can get a set of four, installed, for about $460, including taxes.

The Dunlop SP Sport A2 is available for about $302 for a set of four, installed, including taxes. The Nokian, I expect, will be better in winter conditions. The Dunlop is probably a bit better, I expect, in dry/wet conditions. I've read conflicting reports as to whether the Dunlops are quiet or noisy. Both would proabaly give a similar ride. I expect the Nokians would last longer.

Too bad you can't "test drive" tires like you can cars!

The bottom line? If I knew that the Dunlops would be as quiet/comfortable as the Nokians (or more so), would be decent in snow for an all-season, and would be good for 40-50k, I'd go with them as the better buy. If the Nokians last longer, are no less comfortable, and are significantly better in nasty weather, they would be the way to go, in spite of the price difference.

If any of you have had experiences with both tires and can compare them, I'd love to hear from you! Thanks!

stever · October 2002

Heh, cynical me thinks that some of these tire sales people are getting spiffs by selling specific models :-). They sure aren't likely to recommend a brand they don't sell.

Whatever you choose, good for you for doing the research -- you're way ahead of probably 90% of the tire buying public!

Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards

bretfraz · October 2002

No question that tire dealers want to sell what is most profitable. $10 says the margin on the X-One (or Michelin's in general) aren't that good so the dealers downplay or disparage it. Heck, I'll bet many Michelin dealers don't even stock the X-One, favoring Toyo or Mastercraft or some other high profit line. Wouldn't suprise me a bit.

Anyhoo, the X-One is a terrific choice for your car. If you have a whse club membership then you can buy it as the X Radial Plus. Same tire, different name. Otherwise you might want to mail order them from someone like Tire Rack.

Re: Nokian, in the current issues of "Nines" magazine (SAAB club mag) they review both the NRW and the new WR. Looks like the WR is replacing the NRW. It's a better tire in all respects. If I lived in the NE and wanted a true all-season tire the WR would be my choice. UTQG on the WR is 400/420-A-A.

$75/each for Dunlop SP Sport A2's? That's a darned good price. Someone wants your business. I just don't know how good that tire is in snow/ice. But it is a goodie for the other three seasons.

You're doing a fine job in shopping, Bob. Keep up the good work!

heng · October 2002

I had 2 sets of the Michelins and a set of the Dunlops. The Dunlops I haven't had very long (less than 1000 miles).

Side by side, I give the Dunlops an edge in handling but the Michelins probably will last longer. Don't know about the Dunlops in snow, the tread looks funny. But the Michelins are pretty good all around. Don't know where they are coming from when they said the Michelins don't perform. You can hot foot them a bit and they will handle but if that is your normal driving style a high performance tire would be a better choice (I mean something other than the SP sport A2s, because they are not a real handling improvement over the X-ones).

I don't think the Michelins will go 80K miles maybe 50K. But you can't use tires down to the wear bars here in the northeast. I heard Yokohama Avids are pretty good all around and go for a lot less than the Michelins. Check them out too. No good or convenient source of Yokos where I live so on-line would be my only choice.

ronsmith38 · October 2002

I don't think the Costco/Sams tires are quite the same as the X-one. The specs on the Michelin web page show athe X radial-Plus to be a little inferior in several catagories. A tire store in Charlotte sells the X-one for just $6 more than the Costco tire. So I think that would be a better deal.

nextmoon · October 2002

My OEM tires (Firestone Affinity H/T) seemed to be turning brownish in color in the sidewall areas. Does anyone know what causes this?

I've scraped them a few times against the street curbs parallel parking in one or two spots but the browning seems to occur all over the entire sidewall. I tried cleaning them with the carwash solutions as I washed my car but they turned brown again once the water dried off. My other car has older Michelin tires (MXV4) with lots of mileage and way more scraps against the curb but not much browning.

downeaster16 · October 2002

Thank you for your feedback! May I ask one more question? How would these two tires compare in terms of quietness and ride comfort? That's the one area I'm still unsure of.

One of you mentioned the Nokian WR. As far as I can tell, that's not available (at least, not in my car's size) in the US yet. The Nokian web site for North America has it mainly in SUV sizes so far. Does anyone know when it will be available in car sizes here? I've e-mailed Nokian, but no response as of yet. My local Nokian dealer doesn't seem to know what I'm talking about when I mention about the NRW being replaced by the WR.

Thanks again!

capriracer · October 2002

Tires have waxes, to form a protective surface, and antioxidants (AO's) to slow down the aging process. Rubber is an organic material and like like people suffer from aging. The AO's reduce the rate of oxidation and are usually colored and every manufacturer is different. Look at a Goodyear tire and see if you can't see blue!

You may want to try some tire protectants, but get one that has AO's in it. One way to tell if a tire protectant is having an adverse affect is to try a little and wipe your finger across the treated surface. If you get the black from the tire, then the tire is being dissolved and that would be bad. Mind you, that doesn't tell you if the stuff has AO's. Just whether the tire is being attacked.

Hope this helps.

bretfraz · October 2002

The Michelin gets the nod for being smoother/quieter. The Dunlop has the edge in sportiness/responsive performance.

As for the WR, all I know is what I've read. Only Nokian can tell you when it will be available and in what sizes. Funny that the dealer doesn't know - maybe they didn't get the memo?

bretfraz · October 2002

CAPRIRACER is correct about tires having a wax in them that comes to the surface as the tire is spinning. The process is called "blooming". This is done to protect the tire from UV and ozone degradation. It's absolutely true that tires are a perishable item and will age steadily until they are no longer serviceable - doesn't matter how much tread is left.

Another reason tires get brown is from excessive application of tire dressing. Tires need to be cleaned before every application of dressing. If it builds up then the tires look nasty. I don't agree that seeing black smears on your finger is eroded rubber (although that may be true in some instances). Typically the black smudges come from a mix of dressing, brake dust, and road grime. Tires and wheels are the dirtiest parts of the car - I just wiped down my wheels prior to typing this and they were grimey after two short days of local driving.

Use a quality tire cleaner like Eagle One Tire Cleaner and a stiff brush to scrub the sidewalls clean. Do not use harsh detergents or products with bleach. Follow up with a tire dressing that is water-based and has a UV protectant. Do not use oily silicone-based dressings that make your tires super shiny. Not only are they bad for rubber but the product slings onto paint staining it.

Feel free to hit us with questions if you like. I hope this helps.

hpulley4 · October 2002

I replaced the Firestone Affinity tires on my Saturn over a year ago for a few reasons, poor traction, noisy and very brown. I replaced them with Michelin X-One Durablack tires which have given me better traction, a much quieter ride and the tires stay fairly black -- not good as new but they still look pretty good without doing anything to them.

If you want a showroom shine you can put that tire dresser on them but it is messy stuff. Make sure you don't drive away until it is completely dried or it will splatter onto the rest of your car. Last time I took my MINI in for service and they washed it they did tire dresser too and while the tires looked good, they splattered my black plastic bumpers, etc. so I had to go out and buy some of that stuff to put on the bumpers so they didn't have dark spots on them! Now I have the bottle of stuff but I won't be using it too often. The MINI has Goodyear Eagle NCT5 EMTs which stay grey, not brown, but they look nice and black with the tire dresser on them. I'm going to save the stuff for driver meets though I must say, the way the MINI is eating through the front tires (performance summer only, high traction, low treadware) I seriously doubt the tire dressing is going to reduce the life of the tires, LOL!

alfox · October 2002

I'm still shopping tires for the Passat. A couple questions:

I'm still vascillating between the SP Sport A2's and Michelin. I keep reading glowing reports about X-One's, but they are T-rated. The Passat comes with H-rated tires. What do you think about down-rating tires? I am unlikely to need a 130 mph tire - 118 mph should about do it, LOL. Any other trade-offs beside speed?

Also, what's your view on up-sizing? In the old days just about every car could take two or even three sizes larger. Now it's not so simple. I know it can take one step up. The standard tires are 195-65R15 on 6" rims. I figure if I go up to 205-65R15 I gain just enough width to get a little more stick, and enough diameter to correct the 3 mph speedometer error. Make sense?

bretfraz · October 2002

I'll take the second part first...

Going to 205's should not be a problem. The Golf can go to 225/40-18 and lots of folks have 17s and 18s on Passat's. I think the 205 upsize is a good choice.

As for speed ratings, if I were the Omnipotent Tire Swami of America I'd suggest that all my subjects use speed rated tires. It's not so much how fast you drive as it is benefiting from the more robust tire construction. An H-rated tire has to be built better to withstand the heat and strain of high speed driving. I believe that translates to a better tire, all other things being equal. At 80mph on the interstate in hot summer weather the H-rated tire is handling the heat better than the T-rated one. But you can certainly go down a notch if you like. Just be careful out there

X-One's vs. the Dunlops - - If you just want a tire to cruise on with no sporting aspiriations, the X-One is fine. But the Dunlops will definitely provide a more responsive, sportier ride. So it really depends on what kind of driving you do and how you want your car to feel. Neither is a bad choice as long as the context is right.

I hope all this helps

nextmoon · October 2002

capriracer & bretfraz - thanks for the technical explanation for tiring browning. I truly have learned a thing or two. While I'm not really into making my tires having that shiny/wet look, I do like to keep them clean and black (as long as possible, especially since I only have 3500 miles on the OEM tires). This browning was bothering me because it looks like a dog took a dump on all four of my tires

A week back, I've washed the tires with a car washing solution and scrubbed the sidewalls with a cloth a few times. Does this hurt the tire in any way? I bought a can of Turtlewax spray-on tire cleaner last night. Will products like these restore the black or just prevent additional browning?

hpulley4 - thanks for confirming that these Affinitys do turn brown easily. I agree with you on the tire attributes.

alfox · October 2002

Thanks. Sounds like 205 series Dunlops to me.

anonymous02 · October 2002

1997 Jeep Wrangler Sport.

Stock steel wheels, silver painted.

Paint is peeling with black (primer?) underneath.

I want to prime and paint the wheels. What should I do to prepare them? Sand? Acetone? Xylene? Mineral Spirits?

Thanks in advance.

ian18 · October 2002

Alfox -

For an H-rated tire at a reasonable price I recommend you check out the FIrestone Affinity LH. I was also considering moving down from H-rated tires on my Olds Intrigue but came across this new tire and after some research, purchased them. So far I can tell you that the handling feels better than the Goodyear's it replaced (forgot the name right now but they would have cost $130 each to replace -the Firestone were about $80), the ride is smooth and there is little noise. I will find out this winter how they are in the snow.

alfox · October 2002

Thanks. I'll let you know what I decide. Should get them in the next week.

bretfraz · October 2002

If it were me I'd have them media blasted, primered and painted a nice silver, a couple coats of clear, some mild wax, and I'd be lookin' sharp.

Check out this paint:

http://www.griotsgarage.com/catalog.jsp?&SKU=20229

hpulley4 · October 2002

and contains UV protectants too. It makes the tires look new again.

rs_petty · October 2002

I'd almost bet if you go from an H rating to a T rating the car will feel "slushy." You'll get a better ride in a straight line but changing direction won't be as crisp. One other thing you may want to consider is the load rating. The 205/65 takes you up to 1400 pounds. A much stiffer tire unless you run loaded a lot. The stock rating is 1279 pounds. Perhaps a 205/60 (1301 pounds) would be the better choice as a Plus Zero option.

alfox · October 2002

The 205-60 is too short, and would compound my speedometer error. The 215 is too wide, and would possibly interfere with the strut tower. I do run loaded a good bit, and do a fair amount of long-distance travel (~15k miles per year) with a moderate load on. I wouldn't mind the firmness from the added patch and sidewall of the larger tires.

But thanks for the thought - it all figures in.

hpulley4 · October 2002

I posted something about this a while back on the snow & ice tire forum but didn't get much there.

We've had comments about how going from H to T will make the car's handling slushy. To make a pun out of it, how about for snow tires? Q rated tires are perhaps better in actual snow conditions but will handling be completely compromised in going from H rated summer tires to Q rated snows?

Around here some years we have snow on the roads for months at a time but other years we just get a few 4-6" snowfalls with cleared roads in between. I'm torn between wanting a good Q rated studless snow tire (studs are illegal in Ontario) or getting an H rated snow tire which will likely handle much better when it is dry but which perhaps isn't that much better than a good all season tire in deep snow. Any thoughts? I'd be looking at Michelin Arctic Alpin Qs vs. Michelin Pilot Alpin H rated or Nokian Hakka Qs vs. Nokian NRWs or Vredestein Snowtrac T rated vs. Vredestein Wintrac H rated.

Are the heat dissipation rates of H rated tires worth that much in the winter? I don't do trips as long in the winter generally.

The door placard for my car lists H rated and Q rated tires so apparently the manufacturer thinks the Qs are OK.

rs_petty · October 2002

The logic of an H rated snow tire escapes me. The Q rating originally was intended as a designation for a winter tire with compounds designed for cold weather. Assuming you are going to run your winter tires on separate rims and change back to summer/all weather as appropriate I'd say get the best Q rated winter tire.

anonymous02 · October 2002

For the H rated tires, I like the Sumitomos. I had them on my Civic, and loved them. Not only are they a great tire, they are inexpensive! Sumitomo is the parent company of Dunlop (or at least it was then).

I think the HTR200 is the model at tire rack.

I would recommend ANYONE who has to deal with snow to just totally scrap the entire idea of all season tires and go with a 3 season and snow tire combo. The easiest way to do this is with 2 sets of rims, so you can just swap at your convenience at home. A good (possibly great) snow tire is the one I posted about a few pages back, the one with the "green diamonds". These are like studs which don't wear out, but just keep coming up fresh as you drive. They are quiet and environmentally friendly, and inexpensive. They are also rated as better than the Bridgestone Blizzaks.

hpulley4 · October 2002

Hmm, not sure about distributors/retailers here in Ontario though. I'm a bit leary of ordering them from Wisconscon, not to mention the shipping and customs charges of 4 tires. Sounds like an interesting idea though.

sddlw · October 2002

I'm close to replacing the orginal Michlin MXV4 205/60R16s on my 2000 ES300. I like an absence of road and tire noise, and a smooth but slightly stiff suspension and I like my steering a little on the stiff side. My absolute favorite car to drive is an E-class Mercedes.

I've been thinking of going to 225/55R16s on my ES. Thinking that the wider tread would give me a ride that is slightly more to my liking. My local tire shop says that these should fit fine on the existing rims.

We've just changed the tires on my wife's '84 SL from the original 14" wheels to to 225/50R16 Dunlap 8000's. I like most aspects of the ride of these Dunlop tires, except for the deep vertical tread lines which seem to occasionally "track" with some deep grooves in the hiway surface.

Any thoughts on tire options I should consider or if I will attain a slightly stiffer feel in my ES?

anonymous02 · October 2002

I have had good luck with Dunlops. It is either Graspic or Gripzic or something like that.

edwardn1 · October 2002

For quite some time I've noticed that some vehicle makers recommend not changing tire rotation on NON directional tires, and obviously some do. The employees at most tire outlets here in the Phoenix area, including Sams, Costco and Discount all seem to prefer the straight front to back rotation instead of the "modified x" patern recommended by most makers. It does get incredibly hot here, and in over twenty years of driving, it appears that tires that get their direction changed are more prone to noise and separation. I suspect that the reason tire makers now allow directional change (at one time years ago they did not) is because they are now made better. Here in the summer heat 120degrees plus is reality and tires usually separate before they wear out. Responses, especially from the TIRE GUY appreciated. In other words, has anyone else noticed this. I agree that the modified x leads to more even wear of all four tires as each will eventually be at all four positions, the question is what are detriments of the direction change?

stever · October 2002

I don't know the theory behind it, but I know it seems easier for me to rotate straight front to back. My manual recommends the modified X and throwing the spare into the sequence.

My spare doesn't match my other 4 tires so I leave it out of the rotation, and I figure that my doing any rotation is still better than what half the population likely does.

Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards

motokichi · October 2002

i had always thought that tire rotation was necessary because many roads are not flat. It leans to the outside to help water run off. this creates uneven wear on the tire, making modified X rotations necessary. done at regular intervals, this ought to create a more evenly worn set of tires.

the front to back swap at least will change the rate of wear for 2WD cars. but it will not compensate for the uneven wear on the inside and outside of the tire. still, seems better than no rotation.

just a theory.

ashutoshsm · October 2002

With more and more cars being equipped with directional, or even asymmetrical tires, and a lot of people (incl. me!) adding such tires aftermarket, front-to-back has become the only option in these cases.

However, I agree that an X rotation pattern is the most efficient method to normalize wear across all tires, in cases where it is possible!

alfox · October 2002

I never rotate my tires unless they need it. If all four are wearing evenly I see no point in it. Usually the front will wear slightly faster than the rear, and I will rotate them (straight back to front) after 20-25k miles to even out the wear. That plan has worked for many tires on several cars. I tend to get high mileage on my tires.

stever · October 2002

I drive a minivan and it seems to want to chew up the front tires - otherwise I'd probably defer the rotation beyond my current ~8,000 miles too.

Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards

alfox · October 2002

My best vehicle for tires is my '89 Caravan. I put MXV4's on it way back when the OEM Goodyear's were (thankfully) sliced by a vandal, and they currently have about 55k on them with no less than 6/32 left on all 4, and pretty much even tread. Impressive tires. I wish the car would last long enough to see how many miles the tires could rack up.

My worst mileage in years is on the 2000 Passat. I just (today) replaced all 4 at 45k. They all had 4/32 left, but with winter coming I made the move now. That actually is respectable on Continental H-rated tires.

stever · October 2002

I'm having deja vu - did we already have this conversation? Looking at my spreadsheet, my '89 Voyager had 3 flats (one ruined the tire) and did ok with two sets of tires in 90,000 miles. I ran another set of studs for ~3 months each winter. But it wasn't too hard on my tires I guess - maybe because they got swapped and rotated regularly? (or maybe I forget to record all the tire purchases ).

Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards

alfox · October 2002

Need a parts car?

stever · October 2002

Hey, I got two grand for it in '99 on trade. Pretty good for a key with a heater, adn it was the 4 banger too. As I recall the spare on it was for show, and didn't fit the van either ;-).

I did like the body style a lot, and it had real rain gutters too.

Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards

alfox · October 2002

Last weekend I rested my foot on the trailer hitch and it broke off! One end broke completely free from the frame, and I was able to pick it up and twist the other end free. This is a Class II hitch!, not a bumper hitch.

The end supports on the hitch rusted out, not the frame ends, thankfully. Car's a piece of work. Power steering line popped yesterday, and I thought I could convince my wife to put a bullet in it this time, but no, spent $100 fixing the thing yet again.

anonymous02 · October 2002

"With more and more cars being equipped with directional, or even asymmetrical tires, and a lot of people (incl. me!) adding such tires aftermarket, front-to-back has become the only option in these cases."

That, in addition to the outrageous prices, is yet another good reason to avoid these types of tires like the plague.

corvette · October 2002

Haven't heard much about these yet. Any opinions?

Also, I have a new set of wheels that require stick-on weights. Is getting tires mounted and balanced on them going to be a problem, or should most tire retailers such as Big O Tires know what they're dealing with?

jfl · October 2002

I'm probably showing my age, but I recall when radial tires were supposed to be rotated front to back and bias ply tires were X rotated.

Since I've always had radial tires, I always rotated front to back...not that I always rotated.

Tires, tires, tires

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles