Isuzu does not make the best SUV's ever. It's hard to say who does. They all have their pros and cons.
But what is being argued here is that Isuzu should be doing far better than they are, because they have a very good product. If you have a very good product, then what do you do to be successful in the market place? Promote it and sell it.
This is where Isuzu has failed. If it did this right back in the early to mid 90's, it would not be in this situation now. The Trooper would have a more modern look because Isuzu would have had more money to spend on developing the next generation and it wouldn't have had to go to GM for a new flagship.
Maybe that's over simplified...but this issue has fired up some emotion on this board. If we are this passionate about our Troopers to actually care to put our thoughts forward on this topic, doesn't that reflect on how good the product actually is?
Can you give us examples of what you mean by word of mouth?
Other than manufacturer advertising or Edmund's forums, what "word of mouth" have you heard about say the Explorer, Pilot, MDX, GM Triplets, etc...?
Where off-roading is far more popular, say Australia, there may be a lot of word of mouth where Isuzu is leading the pack in off-road. I can put together a list of people's web-sites that are devoted to the excellence of the Trooper, that is some word of mouth. There are a number of product placements of Isuzu in film, as has been mentioned. Even the Trooper in a few movies. Last year at SEMA, Isuzu had a Trooper ARB equipped vehicle there.
Similar to perhaps the new Nissan Murano? What if Isuzu had built (or builds this, since it is from 2001) this instead of the Axiom? Maybe they would have been ahead of the pack.
The GBX concept has a lot of Honda Element or even Hummer H2 in it. Even Edmund's said of the GBX: "GBX is probably the most livable truck you've never seen."
Porsche almost lost their place in the US market a while ago when sales tanked and the company almost went bankrupt. They came up with a new plan, the point, a plan. Same with Nissan. Isuzu, perhaps under the thumb of GM, doesn't seem to have a plan. We'll see if the 2003 auto shows shows anything promising in terms of concepts.
Who knows, we can certainly contact Isuzu and tell them of a captive and enthusiatic audience and see if they want to use owner testimonials in their marketing plan, if they continue to have one.
The New Isuzu Axiom Bullitt. Remake Bullitt with an Axiom kicking a** in the chase scene against an Explorer. Even use some off-road at speed where the Explorer bottoms out or gets the wheels in the air due to poor articulation of the independent suspension or just bounces around and hits a tree. They can paint the Axiom green, black interior, paint the brake calipers red with some cool 5 spoke wheels. Yaa.... Back to the Future 5 with a VX as the time machine! Or a VX in Robocop 16!
I think we're onto something here! Anyone know Francis Ford Coppola? How about Steven Spielberg? Woody Allen? The Farrelly Brothers?
Of your examples, the recent "buzz" was about the Pilot. Now it's the 4Runner. By buzz I mean lots of news articles and reviews in the popular (non-automotive) press. Not so much buzz about the Explorer or GM's except for the sales, incentives or recalls.
That's the ticket. Isuzu should reskin and rebadge the Trooper every year - keep the "latest and greatest" buzz going.
That may not be so far-fetched as it sounds. Honda/Acura is basically on a 4 year or less recycle. The MDX is already updated for 2003 with a lot of changes (engine, stability, styling). The Honda CRV was restyled in less than 4 years. On the other hand, many vehicles go on with same body style for years and keep selling; Jeep Cherokee (still sold about 100,000 yearly toward the end of the model run) and Blazer as examples. Even the 4Runner has had 'similar' styling since it's introduction. The original Jeep Wagoneer was what, 25 years with similar styling. I think the Trooper has great/classic styling. It doesn't have to be reskinned at all. Updated yes. Isuzu did that 3.2 to 3.5, part-time to TOD, fly-by-wire throttle, etc... Sales just continued to drop. Even Edmunds commended the Trooper as a fine vehicle. Just didn't stand out in the plethora of $30K 4x4's. If the Trooper suddenly had a distinguishing change from one year to the next, perhaps that reskin/update may have made a significant difference. Again, I think the Jack8 concept is pretty exciting, Land Rover Defender style. The Pilot or MDX maybe critical successes, but the number sold are around 70,000 each. Explorer still sells 400,000+. Maybe that is a capacity problem, maybe Honda feels that is the extent of their market. Perhaps they don't want to discount like Ford or GM. I don't count Isuzu discounting, since they are doing that because sales fell so badly. But, I don't think sales fell due to the inferiority of the vehicle and I don't think anyone else does. Lack of marketing, distinguishing features, reaching the appropriate buyer. Yes, those apply.
If we are this passionate about our Troopers to actually care to put our thoughts forward on this topic, doesn't that reflect on how good the product actually is?
Oh, I agree! Apparently it wasn't enough better than the rest to survive a lack of marketing.
has also been a problem for Isuzu. All of us have bought our Isuzus at large discounts off MSRP. Instead of advertising their products at, say, $30,000 and then selling them for $26,000 they should have priced them at $26,000 to begin with. All the car magazine reviews compare vehicles at MSRP and the Isuzu is never considerd a "good" value by them. If it was priced at several thousand $$ less than the Jeeps, Explorers, etc to begin with to match the reality it would get much better treatment in the press. It's like a house that's on the market for a while and then discounted to move it. Everybody wonders what's wrong with it.
The EZ130 removable hard drive v. the Iomega Zip 100. The EZ130 was a far faster, more stable, larger capacity removable storage device than the Iomega Zip 100. The Zip was based on floppy drive technology rather than hard drive technology, hard drive technology being a much faster and better platform to work off of. Why did Iomega outsell EZ130 1000:1? Marketing. Iomega made them available in every 2-bit store you could find, advertising was splashed all over, etc.
Ford and GM have several dealers in every 2-bit cowtown in the US, you buy there cause your dad bought there and his dad bought there as well. So whatever junk GM and Ford put out your salesman is gonna sell you and you will buy cause the dealer is less than 5 min from your house and you like that.
I bet if you look at the geographics of Isuzu owners you'll see that a large portion of them are not in rural areas but in urban and suburban areas.
If you invent a tool that is 100% better than another, the case is made that it will be widely accepted. That is a difficult case to make since purchases are often emotional in nature rather than rational. Sometimes determining the truth is only half the battle--convincing others that the truth is the truth is the other half. Face facts, if people we truly sensible and rational, we wouldn't have 1/10th the troubles on this planet that we have.
Let's look at the fitness/weight loss industry. Every Tom, Dick and Harry has some kind of exercise video or equipment on the market. Millions of people see them 24hrs a day on commercials and infomercials and buy them up, only to find out later that they wasted their money on useless pieces of junk.
Now, with this knowledge in hand, they will still go out and buy the latest, greatest product because the new infomercial promises them that this product is even better than the first.
Good marketing is the number one key to selling your product to the masses. A good product rates second.
At least no one brought up VHS vs Beta :-) (I happen to believe that VHS was a better consumer product to begin with regardless of marketing).
There has to be an exception to the marketing trumps good product rule, but dang if I can think of one off-hand. Maybe Edmunds, since I don't see us advertising all that often!
I stand corrected - the price differences weren't all that great. However, the performance differences weren't all that great either and the Syquests were bulky and heavy! Here's ablast from the past!
That was a cool article, unfortunately it didn't reflect that the Syqyests were infinitely more reliable due to the HD technology v. Floppy technology. I guess I'm just more of a reliability type of guy!
There are alot of good points here. Effective marketing sells poor quality products. That's true. Watch any infomercial. Ginsu knives may be poor quality, but I saw them cut through a leather boot! Exporers only climb mountains in their commercials. Isuzu produces quality vehicles, but who hears about them? I've seen zero advertisement. It's a shame. The Axiom is in a hot market. The SUV Subaru wagon type car sells well. I see tons of them. Plus its a relatively new market. This seems like a smart direction for Isuzu. The ascender will have a tough time competing when there are so many other choices out there. Next year the ascender will be Isuzu's flagship. Scary.
I agree with an earlier post..."I like having a unique ride too", but I also have a vested interest in Isuzu American Motors. I hope they do well.
DW gets the 2002 MPV.... I get her 89 Trooper for my daily commuter. It has always been a basic but good vehicle, little off-road use. But I need to put in a new clutch, and since I hate cheap stuff and don't ever want to do the job again, does anyone have info on where I can get bulletproof clutch stuff (pressure plate, disc, throwout bearing, etc.). Any tricks to dropping this tranny? It looks basic and easy access...
2nd question, the 5 speed used in '89 requires 30 wt engine oil and has always been noisy since brand new, especially in 5th gear. Now it has 112k on it, I hope it is just getting broken in rather than just getting broke. I swapped the 30 wt with 40 wt one time and had serious synchronizer/shifting issues... anyone figure out how to quiet this baby down?
Hi Steve Host, didn't know you made the rounds into the SUV stuff...howdy to all the other trooper owners, I see you are loyal fanatics too.
"The Ascender will have a tough time competing when there are so many other choices out there."
Plus, there are FOUR other choices from GM alone that are basically the SAME as the Ascender: Trailblazer, Envoy, Bravada, and the new Buick Rainier. There isn't enough differentiation between all of them to move enough buyers from the straight GM fold, IMO. Plus, Isuzu is planning on selling the short wheelbase version in addition to the extended Ascender.
The warranty angle better be talked up strongly as some buyers in the Triplet forum are already turning in their 2002 GM's due to (poor) reliability issues.
Edmunds.com: Future Vehicles 2004 Rodeo (SUV) Isuzu says the next Rodeo will NOT be a rebadged next-generation Chevy TrailBlazer off the GMT360 platform. Rather, the company indicates it will go with its own design, retaining body-on-frame truck construction and a range of four- and six-cylinder engines.
I beg to differ, Tidester. I have both the EZ-135 and Zip-100. The performance difference is substantial! The zip is many times slower when it comes to real data access speed. The only real advantage of Zip was that the drives and disks were more easily transportable (i.e. they were smaller and lighter).
Clearly the best quality/technology does not always win. This is just one of many examples. Marketing and availability are both very important. Isuzu has always had less brand recognition and fewer dealers than Ford (in the US), so they were at a competitive disadvantage from the getgo. Superior quality and off-road ability were not enough to swing the masses to Isuzu. Also different people have different criteria. The Explorer, even the previous generation, has some creature comforts and features that the Trooper does not.
Once_for_all, the hosts are everywhere (and we like to talk!).
Zip drives - weren't those the "click of death" drives?
The SUV market is inundated. Isuzu is just ahead of the curve again by getting out before the entire automobile market comes crashing down around our heads. Zero, zero, zero is a heck of a way to build market share!
There are lots of players now in the Australian market. When you consider that we only have a population of 20 mill, then there's way too many SUV choices. More than is economically sustainable in a market this size.
2003 will be an interesting year. I'm particularly curious about the new Toyota Prado that is coming. The 185kw (250hp) 4L V6 makes it interesting. That's more power than Toyota's 4.7L V8! Also, we'll finally see what Holden has planned for the Jackaroo. They have been really quiet about it.
Not much new that hasn't already been said, but these topics compelled me to type...
Both of these factors contributed strongly to Isuzu's poor sales in the U.S. Troopers have been great values for several years. However, the only people who know that are the very Trooper-savvy, and this is a small group. If Isuzu had set Trooper MSRPs lower, and closer to the typical actual sales prices, Troopers would have been perceived as values by LOTS of people.
While tidester's theory about a superior product always succeeding is logical, things don't always play out that way in the real world.
For Isuzu to fail in the hottest segment of the U.S. automotive market, SUVs, when that's all Isuzu makes, they really must be doing things wrong. Way wrong.
Dropping the sticker price on Trooper would have been the cheapest marketing ever. Word would have spread as tire-kickers noticed - 'gee, this Trooper is only $27k but it's got EVERYTHING. And look how much room is inside, honey.' That never happened.
Jeep did this with the Cherokee it is a very very old design and they keep selling it. Isuzu could do the same, just make inexpensive upgrades like a CD player instead of cassette. I think it is the USA regulations for crumple zones and the lack of low sulfur diesel fuel that has hit Isuzu the hardest. If the low sulfur duesel was available in the USA then imagine Isuzu's advantage with a 30+ MPG SUV that can tow 5000 lb. And with an older design, sell it around $5000 less than the competition to grab market share.
I've seen a light blue Isuzu badged minivan running around my area this past week. Can this be true? Or am I confusing it with another Isuzu vehicle that looks like a minivan?
I went to the isuzu site and didn't see the vehicle. Never heard of an Isuzu van either, so is it possible that it's really old?
Over in the phillipines Isuzu sells a Crossover vehicle that looks like a LWB version of the old MPV. It also looks like a mini-version of the trooper from the rear. Runs a 4-banger diesel engine.
My 02 Trooper has a "power" mode button. I understand it allows the engine to rev higher before upshifts. The owners manual says it can be used for quicker accelerations. I have a hard time finding times when I need quick accel. Maybe if I am street racing Acuras or pull out in front of a semi with a triple trailer. Anyone got some suggestions? I would hate for it to go unused. It is sure fun to drive in power mode. I use it mostly on hilly roads. Do you think it burns more fuel? Anyone use it in 4x4?
The A/T shift points are determined by the rpm of the engine, and the position of the throttle. Power mode moves the shift to a higher rpm with the same throttle input. It also will delay the engagement of the torque converter lock-up feature, so long as the tranny temps are below some value (140 C IIRC).
Just use it when you need it. The higher shift points do make it fun to drive and may increase fuel usage. But hell, if you're driving that way you're likely to use more fuel anyway.
I find it useful in hilly areas. Just beware when using it at the same time as cruise control. I was caught out once in the Snowy Mountains in Australia. Cruising along at 110km/h, power and c/control on, TOD off. Came to a sweeping bend which had a short uphill section part way into it. The combination of the rise and power mode was enough to make the transmission kick down unexpectedly. I didn't lose it, but the rear end definitely exhibited a desire to overtake the front.
Comments
But what is being argued here is that Isuzu should be doing far better than they are, because they have a very good product. If you have a very good product, then what do you do to be successful in the market place? Promote it and sell it.
This is where Isuzu has failed. If it did this right back in the early to mid 90's, it would not be in this situation now. The Trooper would have a more modern look because Isuzu would have had more money to spend on developing the next generation and it wouldn't have had to go to GM for a new flagship.
Maybe that's over simplified...but this issue has fired up some emotion on this board. If we are this passionate about our Troopers to actually care to put our thoughts forward on this topic, doesn't that reflect on how good the product actually is?
Other than manufacturer advertising or Edmund's forums, what "word of mouth" have you heard about say the Explorer, Pilot, MDX, GM Triplets, etc...?
Where off-roading is far more popular, say Australia, there may be a lot of word of mouth where Isuzu is leading the pack in off-road. I can put together a list of people's web-sites that are devoted to the excellence of the Trooper, that is some word of mouth. There are a number of product placements of Isuzu in film, as has been mentioned. Even the Trooper in a few movies. Last year at SEMA, Isuzu had a Trooper ARB equipped vehicle there.
http://www.isuzu.com/inside_isuzu/news/trooper_arb.html
I can't say how it was received, I wasn't there.
How about this concept
http://technojunkie.org/~berniec/galleries/seattle/2001_auto_show/59.html
Similar to perhaps the new Nissan Murano? What if Isuzu had built (or builds this, since it is from 2001) this instead of the Axiom? Maybe they would have been ahead of the pack.
The GBX concept has a lot of Honda Element or even Hummer H2 in it. Even Edmund's said of the GBX: "GBX is probably the most livable truck you've never seen."
Porsche almost lost their place in the US market a while ago when sales tanked and the company almost went bankrupt. They came up with a new plan, the point, a plan. Same with Nissan. Isuzu, perhaps under the thumb of GM, doesn't seem to have a plan. We'll see if the 2003 auto shows shows anything promising in terms of concepts.
Who knows, we can certainly contact Isuzu and tell them of a captive and enthusiatic audience and see if they want to use owner testimonials in their marketing plan, if they continue to have one.
I think we're onto something here! Anyone know Francis Ford Coppola? How about Steven Spielberg? Woody Allen? The Farrelly Brothers?
That's the ticket. Isuzu should reskin and rebadge the Trooper every year - keep the "latest and greatest" buzz going.
Steve, Host
Honda/Acura is basically on a 4 year or less recycle. The MDX is already updated for 2003 with a lot of changes (engine, stability, styling). The Honda CRV was restyled in less than 4 years. On the other hand, many vehicles go on with same body style for years and keep selling; Jeep Cherokee (still sold about 100,000 yearly toward the end of the model run) and Blazer as examples. Even the 4Runner has had 'similar' styling since it's introduction. The original Jeep Wagoneer was what, 25 years with similar styling.
I think the Trooper has great/classic styling. It doesn't have to be reskinned at all. Updated yes. Isuzu did that 3.2 to 3.5, part-time to TOD, fly-by-wire throttle, etc... Sales just continued to drop. Even Edmunds commended the Trooper as a fine vehicle. Just didn't stand out in the plethora of $30K 4x4's.
If the Trooper suddenly had a distinguishing change from one year to the next, perhaps that reskin/update may have made a significant difference. Again, I think the Jack8 concept is pretty exciting, Land Rover Defender style.
The Pilot or MDX maybe critical successes, but the number sold are around 70,000 each. Explorer still sells 400,000+. Maybe that is a capacity problem, maybe Honda feels that is the extent of their market. Perhaps they don't want to discount like Ford or GM.
I don't count Isuzu discounting, since they are doing that because sales fell so badly. But, I don't think sales fell due to the inferiority of the vehicle and I don't think anyone else does. Lack of marketing, distinguishing features, reaching the appropriate buyer. Yes, those apply.
Oh, I agree! Apparently it wasn't enough better than the rest to survive a lack of marketing.
tidester, host
The EZ130 removable hard drive v. the Iomega Zip 100. The EZ130 was a far faster, more stable, larger capacity removable storage device than the Iomega Zip 100. The Zip was based on floppy drive technology rather than hard drive technology, hard drive technology being a much faster and better platform to work off of. Why did Iomega outsell EZ130 1000:1? Marketing. Iomega made them available in every 2-bit store you could find, advertising was splashed all over, etc.
Ford and GM have several dealers in every 2-bit cowtown in the US, you buy there cause your dad bought there and his dad bought there as well. So whatever junk GM and Ford put out your salesman is gonna sell you and you will buy cause the dealer is less than 5 min from your house and you like that.
I bet if you look at the geographics of Isuzu owners you'll see that a large portion of them are not in rural areas but in urban and suburban areas.
-mike
Now, with this knowledge in hand, they will still go out and buy the latest, greatest product because the new infomercial promises them that this product is even better than the first.
Good marketing is the number one key to selling your product to the masses. A good product rates second.
Just my thoughts on the subject.
There has to be an exception to the marketing trumps good product rule, but dang if I can think of one off-hand. Maybe Edmunds, since I don't see us advertising all that often!
Steve, Host
I am currently looking into purchasing a used '94 Trooper LS with 120K miles on it.
Does anyone have any advice regarding what to look for in a reliable used Trooper or any issues with owning a used Trooper?
Thank you.
Sell them what they think they want and actually provide what they need, even if that is different than what they think they want.
Similar to what is next for computers: Computers that do what you meant not what you told them, the behavior of a good assistant.
Make a strong capable SUV and market how well it replaces a minivan / stationwagon with a high tow rating.
My Trooper seats 8 and can haul a 18.5 cubic foot refrigerator with the doors closed, therefore it is an excellent minivan / stationwagon.
Please Joe Isuzu drop the idea of selling SUVs as sexy, S or no S they are UVs and UV is not sexy.
...and then there is the issue of price!
tidester, host
-mike
Make a strong capable SUV and market how well it replaces a minivan / stationwagon with a high tow rating.
My Trooper seats 8 and can haul a 18.5 cubic foot refrigerator with the doors closed, therefore it is an excellent minivan / stationwagon.
Please Joe Isuzu drop the idea of selling SUVs as sexy, S or no S they are UVs and UV is not sexy.
tidester, host
-mike
Effective marketing sells poor quality products. That's true. Watch any infomercial. Ginsu knives may be poor quality, but I saw them cut through a leather boot! Exporers only climb mountains in their commercials.
Isuzu produces quality vehicles, but who hears about them? I've seen zero advertisement.
It's a shame. The Axiom is in a hot market. The SUV Subaru wagon type car sells well. I see tons of them. Plus its a relatively new market. This seems like a smart direction for Isuzu.
The ascender will have a tough time competing when there are so many other choices out there.
Next year the ascender will be Isuzu's flagship.
Scary.
I agree with an earlier post..."I like having a unique ride too", but I also have a vested interest in Isuzu American Motors. I hope they do well.
2nd question, the 5 speed used in '89 requires 30 wt engine oil and has always been noisy since brand new, especially in 5th gear. Now it has 112k on it, I hope it is just getting broken in rather than just getting broke. I swapped the 30 wt with 40 wt one time and had serious synchronizer/shifting issues... anyone figure out how to quiet this baby down?
Hi Steve Host, didn't know you made the rounds into the SUV stuff...howdy to all the other trooper owners, I see you are loyal fanatics too.
Plus, there are FOUR other choices from GM alone that are basically the SAME as the Ascender: Trailblazer, Envoy, Bravada, and the new Buick Rainier.
There isn't enough differentiation between all of them to move enough buyers from the straight GM fold, IMO. Plus, Isuzu is planning on selling the short wheelbase version in addition to the extended Ascender.
The warranty angle better be talked up strongly as some buyers in the Triplet forum are already turning in their 2002 GM's due to (poor) reliability issues.
-mike
2004 Rodeo (SUV)
Isuzu says the next Rodeo will NOT be a rebadged next-generation Chevy TrailBlazer off the GMT360 platform. Rather, the company indicates it will go with its own design, retaining body-on-frame truck construction and a range of four- and six-cylinder engines.
Clearly the best quality/technology does not always win. This is just one of many examples. Marketing and availability are both very important. Isuzu has always had less brand recognition and fewer dealers than Ford (in the US), so they were at a competitive disadvantage from the getgo. Superior quality and off-road ability were not enough to swing the masses to Isuzu. Also different people have different criteria. The Explorer, even the previous generation, has some creature comforts and features that the Trooper does not.
Zip drives - weren't those the "click of death" drives?
The SUV market is inundated. Isuzu is just ahead of the curve again by getting out before the entire automobile market comes crashing down around our heads. Zero, zero, zero is a heck of a way to build market share!
Steve, Host
2003 will be an interesting year. I'm particularly curious about the new Toyota Prado that is coming. The 185kw (250hp) 4L V6 makes it interesting. That's more power than Toyota's 4.7L V8! Also, we'll finally see what Holden has planned for the Jackaroo. They have been really quiet about it.
Both of these factors contributed strongly to Isuzu's poor sales in the U.S. Troopers have been great values for several years. However, the only people who know that are the very Trooper-savvy, and this is a small group. If Isuzu had set Trooper MSRPs lower, and closer to the typical actual sales prices, Troopers would have been perceived as values by LOTS of people.
While tidester's theory about a superior product always succeeding is logical, things don't always play out that way in the real world.
For Isuzu to fail in the hottest segment of the U.S. automotive market, SUVs, when that's all Isuzu makes, they really must be doing things wrong. Way wrong.
Dropping the sticker price on Trooper would have been the cheapest marketing ever. Word would have spread as tire-kickers noticed - 'gee, this Trooper is only $27k but it's got EVERYTHING. And look how much room is inside, honey.' That never happened.
How? Is this low-sulpher argument a red herring floated by GM/Ford/Others?
-mike
I went to the isuzu site and didn't see the vehicle. Never heard of an Isuzu van either, so is it possible that it's really old?
It actually looked pretty nice for a minivan...
-mike
We can arrange for a PB run. What town will you be in that weekend?
-mike
It is sure fun to drive in power mode. I use it mostly on hilly roads.
Do you think it burns more fuel?
Anyone use it in 4x4?
As long as there are 2 trucks I'm game. So once Kevin verifies with his CEO we can start planning this.
-mike
I find it useful in hilly areas. Just beware when using it at the same time as cruise control. I was caught out once in the Snowy Mountains in Australia. Cruising along at 110km/h, power and c/control on, TOD off. Came to a sweeping bend which had a short uphill section part way into it. The combination of the rise and power mode was enough to make the transmission kick down unexpectedly. I didn't lose it, but the rear end definitely exhibited a desire to overtake the front.
TOD remained on for the rest of the trip.
The other time I use it is on 2-lane highways. Passing is much better in Power mode.