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Comments
-mike
Steve
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Ed
Steve
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Sorry, I kind of found that funny. ;-)
Utility is more about payload than tow capacity, though both figure into the equation. You load up your vehicle far more often than you tow, for sure.
I can't believe noone commented on the Hyundai horsepower shortage???
-juice
Steve
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I guess it just wasn't that shocking.
The SVT Cobra had an HP deficit a couple of years ago too. Although you can't just extend the warranty on that one. They absolutely had to give the owners more power.
I'm impressed that they are doing something about the corrections before they were caught red-handed by some aggressively litigious party. That's going to be an interesting situation to watch unfold.
I wasn't able to find anything directly addressing US consumers about this -- do you know what's up with that?
Steve
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They could probably have gotten away with it, it's not like many Hyundai owners get to a dyno often.
-juice
It's not really clear if design issues caused the Hyundai deficits or not though. They are only saying that they lacked HP testing facilities or something like that.
I have a dumb question. What exactly does horsepower measure? The reason why I'm asking is that a friend of mine with a lifted 4Runner changed tire size. Until she redid her gears, her max speed was something like 60 mph. So does horsepower figures take into account things like gears?
Horsepower is a measure of power which is the amount of work done in a period of time (work divided by time). Some of the work is done to accelerate the vehicle and some is used to offset or balance various resistive forces (road friction, air drag, engine "drag" and so forth.)
Different tires may change the force balance and use up more or less of the engine power to offset the change in rolling resistance.
tidester
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But gearing has a huge effect on acceleration. And so do tires, and that's the lesson your friend learned.
A lower final drive (numerically higher, like the 4:1 above) will give you better off the line accleration, lets you rev quicker, and even keeps rpm up on the highway for easier passing. The trade-offs include gas mileage and noise.
A taller final drive (3:1 in my example) can feel sluggish off the line, and taken to an extreme won't be able to sustain high speeds. Usually engine with very good low-end torque have higher final drives.
You'll hear people refer to their final drive as "my 4/11 rear", meaning a 4.11:1 ratio.
In the case of the 4Runner, they changed the gearing by putting on bigger tires. The effect is the same as a taller final drive.
-juice
OTOH, a Cobra Mustang is sold almost on its hp alone, so for those owners it is very important they be compensated if the real-world hp falls short of what is advertised.
The Mazda Miata hp problems are a similar case - since it is a sporty car, hp figures prominently in peoples' decision to buy it or not.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
1. Upgrade bumper to bumper from 5/60 to 6/72
2. Upgrade roadside assistance from 5 yrs/unlimited miles to 10 yrs/unlimited miles
3. Upgrade powertrain from 10/100 to 12/120.
I'll probably choose door #3, since in my experience stuff tends to happen at just over 100k, plus I bought the 10/100 extended warranty with the car. While I'm a little disappointed in the lower HP rating, it really doesn't make a lick of difference in this car - I believe the torque rating was unaffected. Another 20k of powertrain coverage is s more than fair trade off for 8 top end HP.
Now, if I had bought a Tiburon I might be steamed...
-Jason
So now the next question is - what about the MT Forester and Liberty? I wonder if they are more like the Taco or the Wrangler - does anyone know?
-mike
You can call me whatever you want. The fact is that you defend your Santa Fe just as much as everyone else defends their own.
I wish I had a dollar for every time I read how you parked a Tribute and Santa Fe next to each other for comparison.
If you really want us all to start bashing Hyundai, just ask. There's really not sport in it though and that's not what we're here for.
paisan,
I think you're right about the Cobra. Not too many people had to bring them back for the modifications but I don't really know if they compensated them in any other way.
I do believe that they increased the HP from it's original rating though. I think it was supposed to be 305 and they all ended up having about 315-320 when all was said and done. I don't know the exact numbers.
Please don't feel obligated to rationalize the actions of others. Heck, I sometimes have enough trouble just trying to rationalize my own actions!
I know you've told me you're not, but if dealers can lie to your face, they surely can lie on the internet, huh?
If he says he's not then why not leave it at that? It's a little harsh to suggest someone is being untruthful about a personal matter especially with nothing to substantiate it.
tidester
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http://www.detnews.com/2002/autosinsider/0209/12/b01-584977.htm
All I know is that I wish I would have waited until now to buy our Escape. We paid full price in January. I'd probably have a Mustang instead though.
It's no big deal tidester. Those Philly folks are just jealous of us Pittsburgher's because we got two new stadiums while they got bupkis.
AS far as 8hp goes. It does matter in these mini-SUVs. The Santa Fe weighs alot and needs the power/Torque to pull itself around. When I read the comparison between the Toyota RAV4 and The Santa Fe about 6 months ago I could not believe the RAV4 beat up on the Santa Fe in every performance category! Performance does matter. You bought the Santa Fe for price only.. admit it..
As for "performance" one could say the same about any mini-ute buyer as far as "SUVability" when comparing them to real trucks, let's not go there.
-mike
whatever you are, you have tried to be helpful to the people on the "Tribute/Escape problems" board and I will always acknowledge and appreciate that. You do seem to do much more defending of Ford than Ford deserves, so then what is your interest there if you are not a dealer? Scape...you've told us your agenda. You have been an irritant to the people on the Trib problems board and insensitive to boot. Also, I bought the SF for build quality, not performance - correct. The dealer we worked with (a Hyundai/Mazda dealer!) was going to give me S-Plan on the Trib, so price-wise, they were about equal. I guess the 10-year warranty influenced me a bit, since I would have bought the extended warranty on the Trib due to the Ford drivetrain ($1400). So I guess you could say I save $1400! -- wowww. - to all, just look at the Trib problems board and look at the comments about "scape2" - its enlightening. I think my 5K review of the Santa Fe was objective and I think my comments about Hyundai have been objective. They did wrong with the horsepower thing. If they don't fix the stickers on the 2003s then they should be fined by the FTC. They are trying to compensate though. Also, why don't you check with mtngal.. I recommended she NOT buy the Santa Fe since she had burned out 2 Nissan trannies with her arduous commute. I think for sure, she'd burn out the Hyundai tranny also. I have always acknowledged that buying a Hyundai was a risk, and that part of my agenda IS to BASH the American Carmakers/Unions because they have produced poor goods at higher prices and expect us to buy in the name of "patriotism". Nonsense! In addition, I have read a number of posts from people who have been long absent from these boards and admit there are too many dealers-in-disguise on these boards. I guess that's to be expected, so my point to both of you is that its easy to hide behind a mask on the internet, so I take nothing at face value. I have seen both Ford and Subaru defended heavily on this board. Subaru clearly has a better quality reputation, so there's more objective rationale behind its defense than Ford.
-mike
Haven't you ever heard the phrase "I come from a Ford Ford family."? Or at least that's how I think it goes. My father has always bought Ford's and they always lasted for at least ten years which is about when he traded them in for something new and different. I and one of my sisters now buy them consistently and neither of us have had any catastrophes to speak of. With regular maintenance, pretty much any vehicle will last for a good long while.
Not that it is any of your business, but I do not have any financial interest in FMC. Period. I don't even own any of their stock. I just grew up in Ford's and will continue to buy them until I decide not to.
"so my point to both of you is that its easy to hide behind a mask on the internet, so I take nothing at face value." from post 2682
"don't just read this board while making your decision... read the "problems" boards (if they exist) or the repair and maintenance boards and the regular chat boards of any vehicle your considering." from post 2684
So let me get this straight. People shouldn't take anything they read on these boards at face value, but they should read all of them in order to help them decide what to purchase and what to stay away from?
By the way, our other car is a 96 Civic and I would defend it against any other car in it's class and model year too. I used to own a ZX2 which was much more fun to drive and just as (if not more) reliable, but it was way less refined than the Civic.
I do have problem with people resorting to accusations of being untruthful. We can argue against a position with facts, logic and reason and that should be refutation enough. There's no need to get personal.
I hope that helps.
tidester
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"You do seem to do much more defending of Ford than Ford deserves"
Also your now claiming that everyone here who supports Ford, and believes that Ford makes as good of a mini-suv as anyone else is a Ford dealer in disguise.
Why is it impossible for you to believe that there are hundreds of thousands of folks out there who own/have owned Ford products that meet or exceed all of their quality, performance, value, drivability expectations so that they would want to own another Ford.
There are folks who each defend their brand of purchase. And btw, we all have great vehicles too.
These forums can be pretty addictive I must say.
Lowered expectations. My father was a die hard Dodge fan, owned 4 k-cars over the years. Finally bought a subaru legacy L in '97 and once he had it swore he'd never buy another american car.... Up til that point he was realtively happy with his dodges.
-mike
All were mechanically sound and reliable for the time I had them, some I bought new, some used. All were excellent quality for what they were (the Opel was VERY basic). So I think that you can get good cars from any manufacturer, just like anyone can put out a lemon.
Out of these, I've really disliked only one - our Tacoma. The Ford had some performance limitations - it's turning radius was huge so it was hard to maneuver in tight spots, but that would not stop me buying another model Ford sometime.
Most likely. It works the same here too though. The Escape/Tribute problems board has a lot of duplicate postings as well as a plethora of off-topic "Ford bashing" posts. Most of the non-Edmunds forums dedicated for only Escapes and Tributes usually do have a lower number of "problem" posts. Although, I can't confirm membership numbers which could make a difference.
From scape, we read about this site's duplicate posts, even phantom people logging on under different names.
That would most likely be true of other sites (including the enthusiast ones that seem to agree with scape's position more).