Suzuki Grand Vitara vs Subaru Forester vs Hyundai Santa Fe vs Jeep Liberty vs Ford Escape vs Saturn

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Comments

  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
  • navigator3740navigator3740 Member Posts: 279
    I also find it strange that a Ford defender is suspect on this board. I am a Ford defender, and I buy them just because I like them, and they've generally been very good to me. That's all. If you suspect me of being a dealer, investor, or Bill Ford, sorry, you're wrong. They've never done anything for me other than build a car I like to drive. Even I don't completely understand my brand loyalty to them, other than I seem to have a fondness for the products. They fit me, they attract my attention, and they run well. I've had a couple of disappointing ones in my lifetime, but I guess I'm one of those types who understand that they're machines and there are a million variables and subcontractors who provide parts for every one of them. For the 2 Fords I have thought were substandard in reliability, I have had 20 that were exceptionally well built and reliable. I like the design and attention to the details that work for me.

    There are many other great cars on the road. But Ford had built great cars for years, and a few dogs too.

    I think those of you who can't believe anybody would defend Ford should go take a drive. All those people driving one can't be unhappy.....
    I would ask what it is that those of you who can't understand my defense of Ford, who's stock YOU own?
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Excellent post!

    Bob
  • clever1clever1 Member Posts: 123
    Aside from scape2, who actually said that "it's not okay to defend Ford"?
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    The site that clever1 was referring to also has 2249 threads with 22,093 posts in its "General" section. It only contains "good" stuff because they move all of the "bad" stuff to other places.
  • clever1clever1 Member Posts: 123
    If 303 out of 3914 total threads, or 3219 out of 36997 posts, are problems, that means about 8% of that board is devoted to problems. And that's excluding anything that is mentioned under general or other topics. I can't speak to redundance in that content, but c'mon....

    If scape2 wants to "support" the Escape/Trib, he should be able to back up his exuberant assertions with something grounded in reality.

    Since scape2 seems uncharacteristically silent lately, does anyone else have any idea where this mysterious "Escape/Trib room with over 4,300 people and less than 1% have had any major problems" exists?
  • gsogymratgsogymrat Member Posts: 97
    You people need to stop trying to convince each other that your vehicles are "the best". It's just a vehicle. If you don't like what you bought trade it in on a different one. Just drive the stupid thing and shut up about it.
  • bessbess Member Posts: 972
    Trying to count the number of posts on a topic that happens to have a particular name does not have any relationship to anything..

    I find it hard to draw conclusions of only 1% or 10%, or 50% of all owners for a particular are having problems based on a number of posts, or number of memembers of a particular board..

    Could it be the number of posts for a particular board is nothing more than a reflection of how popular that particular product is? I don't know, nor would I try to draw any conclusions based on number of posts.

    There are other types of information that can be gained from message boards. but not counting nubmers of posts.
  • clever1clever1 Member Posts: 123
    Actually, it's the number of threads that's interesting, not the number of posts. Think about it.

    Why are you Ford folks so defensive, anyway? Do you even know if your "detractors" like or dislike any particular product? You really need to read the background here before reacting.

    This isn't about a brand, Ford or any other, per se. It's about backing up ridiculous assertions, such as the bovine excrement that is being spewed to promote the Escape/Tribute's *superiority*, not about it's *inferiority*.

    Calm down.
  • mtngalmtngal Member Posts: 1,911
    I had only driven the Forester before. Now I tend to agree with my other half - I prefer either the OB or the WRX over the Forester. I don't know all of the correct car terms for things, but the suspension on the Forester was a bit too stiff for me, especially when I can drive a similar vehicle with a whole bunch more oomph. I know, this seems a strange thing for a Wrangler owner to think, but its suspension is so totally different! I liked how the MT in the Subarus is geared - certainly more low end power than the Taco.

    Has anyone heard anything more about the Escape hybrid? I can't buy anything until April at the earliest, and I'm always interested in new stuff and ways to keep my expenses (i.e. my fuel budget) down.
  • clever1clever1 Member Posts: 123
    Sorry to hear the Forester wasn't to your liking.

    So far, releases are saying that the 2004(?) Escape Hybrid will achieve 40mpg in a 2x4 configuration, with very little compromise to interior space (battery mounted under floorboard or something like that). There's probably better information somewhere in Edmunds, but it sounds like a good design. The Liberty is supposed to be available as a hybrid sometime in the not-too-distant future, too. Can't say if they're planning manual transmissions, though.
  • mtngalmtngal Member Posts: 1,911
    I don't know if I'll wait around for the hybrids, because I liked the WRX so much. However, I like the Liberty better than the Escape (just a personal thing, I don't have anything against the Escape) and might be more tempted to wait for it, as long as it wouldn't be too long. A whole bunch can change between now and April, but I think that I'll want that Subaru as soon as I can afford to get rid of that Taco I dislike so much.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Navigator3740, well said. I much prefer Coke, but I'd probably flunk a blind taste test :-)

    Gsogymrat, your name in your profile is marked public.... is that really your first name?

    Steve
    Host
    SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
  • clever1clever1 Member Posts: 123
    I'm also fascinated with the prospect of hybrid technology. Aside from fuel conservation, it sure would be nice to have an emergency power supply in the driveway during power outages. And... tax breaks!!!

    I'm not sure if this is even a valid concern, but I do wonder about electromagnetic fields (EMF) in hybrid design. Maybe someone here has input about shielding of batteries, etc.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Sure, get some Levis.



    Steve

    Host

    SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
  • mtngalmtngal Member Posts: 1,911
    LOL! I heard about that on the radio coming home yesterday.

    I guess I don't worry much about such things - I grew up in a house very close to Edison Co. high voltage wires. If my brain and guts aren't fried from that I don't think a cell phone or a hybrid car will make any difference!
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    Actually, it's the number of threads that's interesting, not the number of posts. Think about it.

    I thought about it and I sincerely hope we do not see a proliferation of threads out of advocacy! :-)

    tidester
    Host
    SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
  • clever1clever1 Member Posts: 123
    If there is a potential problem, I tend to think it's going to be easier to deal with hybrid arrays in cars because there are so many ways to physically isolate them from passengers. There has been a standard for EMF radiation for auto safety in the Scandinavian market, with an eye on things like the proliferation of onboard electronics -- alarmist, or progressive? I don't know. Meanwhile, maybe there will be a Levi edition of the Escape HEV. ;)
  • bessbess Member Posts: 972
    Number of threads, number of posts, still you can derive no meaning based on that either..

    An individual can open a new thread as easily as they can post into a thread..

    On to defensivness.. If someone spreads mis-information or partial information about another vehicle that you prefer, do you correct them? Is that being defensive?
    If you give your opinion of a vehicle you prefer, is that being defensive?

    I'm thinking that the only time there is a 'defense' is in response to an 'offense'.. So if you claim is true that others are being defensive, then why are you being so offensive?
  • clever1clever1 Member Posts: 123
    bess: You're actually reinforcing my point regarding scape2's claim about the "Escape/Trib room with over 4,300 people and less than 1% have had any major problems". Thanks for that.

    I think it's great to read about potential problems with vehicles being considered for purchase. And, I'm likewise happy to relay information about problems I've experienced. It gets factored in with all of the good stuff and makes for better decision making. Isn't that the main reason Townhall exists?

    What's not great is when someone tries to negate an issue about an established problem with bogus information. That's not any better than saying a vehicle does something it can't do. Who does any of that serve?

    For example, I'd rather consider the potential risk of the Escape/Tribute stalling issue before buying one, just like anything else that effects safety, comfort, usability, etc. Since I personally have only had good experiences with Ford products in the past, something like that might cause me to wait for a solution if I otherwise wanted one.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Steve: it's just like those blue french fries. No joking. They taste the same, but they look...nasty! Green ketchup, too. I'll take the red stuff, thanks.

    Ford sort of recalled the ones that got out, and changed the intake/exhaust to get them to make the power. But there's a question of resale, since they are not factory built with 320hp. They missed a whole model year of Cobras to sort the mess out.

    Mazda offered $500 in accessories, or they'd even buy back your Miata. Most people took the cash.

    I wasn't criticizing Hyundai's reaction, by the way, just tossing out the subject for discussion. I'd take the 120k warranty had I bought one, too.

    -juice
  • maggoo26maggoo26 Member Posts: 21
    Juice,

    What about Hyundai's reaction? Fill me in please.

    Thanks!

    Oh- what's a "thread" or a "post"- a little education is needed here. I've been looking for one of the midsize SUV's but what should I be looking for, the only thing I'm certain of is SAFETY! The Honda Pilot looks nice and seats 8!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Well, they are quietly offering a longer warranty to folks with a 4% or greater power deficit. Lucky for them, the whole thing didn't get much publicity.

    A post is a single entry, yours being #2724. A thread is a discussion, or topic, this being the For/SF/Esc/Trib/Lib/Vue thread.

    This will save you lots of time, check out crashtest.com, which summarizes findings from several crash tests, including those from the US NHTSA and IIHS, as well as tests from Europe, Japan, and Australia.

    I test drove a Pilot last week. They are nice, roomy and smooth. The one I was in had some uncharacteristic assembly flaws, including a loose/rattling cover in the cargo area, plus a wiper that ran over onto the A-pillar. Engine power was good, torquey. It drives "big" though, not nimble or sporty, if that's what you want. They were $30-35k at this dealer, mostly loaded up, but with a wait list of 2 months or so.

    Any of the SUVs here can be had much cheaper, so decide what your needs are, and maybe a price range, before you shop. Good luck.

    -juice
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    Juice is part right!

    A post is a single entry. The topic here is For/SF/Esc/Trib/Lib/Vue. A thread is like a subtopic. Within the topic, individuals may be discussing braking issues in one thread and acceleration in another. The threads come and go but the topic is fixed.

    And when the threads get intertwined and no one gets anywhere, it's a knot! ;-)

    tidester
    Host
    SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
  • jaserbjaserb Member Posts: 820
    In case you're wondering, the Santa Fe does fall into the over 4% range. It looks like they did that in order to exclude the Elantra, which is their volume seller.

    Maggoo26: If what you're really looking at is safety and you're willing to spend mid $30s, look at the Volvo XC90. I'm not much of a Volvo guy, but this just may be the safest vehicle, let alone SUV, on the planet.

    -Jason
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    There are no threads on Edmunds, since it isn't a "threaded" message board system.

    :( If it only were threaded like UBB is we'd get a lot further on discussions...

    -mike
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    Picky, picky, picky! ;-)

    tidester
    Host
    SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Can we end this thread now and get back to the SUVs? Oh wait...

    Steve
    Host
    SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Where does that leave Elantra owners? Bumming?

    -juice
  • jaserbjaserb Member Posts: 820
    They've still got 135 (real) horsies, which beats most of the cars in its class. Elantra hasn't had the "underpowered" knock the Santa Fe has, AFAIK. By the way, did anyone see AutoWeek's article about the horsepower claims? Pretty funny.

    http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_code=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=09076080


    I guess the point is that a Hyundai horsepower overstatement isn't quite the same severity as in a Cobra or Miata. They also mention the Jag S-Type R - anybody know anything about an overstatement there?


    -Jason

  • jaserbjaserb Member Posts: 820
    One of the hosts mentioned if you do a spell check you can get around the 115 char limit. Cool!

    -Jason
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I haven't sampled that engine (Elantra). I've driven the Sedona, and the 3.5l feels nice and torquey, if not overly fast.

    No surprise Autoweek got a little sarcastic about it. :-)

    -juice
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    They gave the dang car 5 more imaginery horses.

    Not as bad as Infiniti launching the Q45 flagship sedan with 0-60 times that no one else could reproduce!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They shortened the final drive this year, did you hear about that? That might get them the 0-60 times they had claimed originally.

    VW claims a 6.5s elapsed time for the W8, but C&D and Edmunds both took a bit over 7 seconds, so there's another discrepancy.

    Usually, makes are conservative with their claims.

    -juice
  • maggoo26maggoo26 Member Posts: 21
    Just as a side note- y'all can keep a page moving! I was bored yesterday at work and read a few discussion pages and this one was the most interesting! Thanks for the thread/post info. Right now we have a mini van w/ one child but family that visits (can you do anything about that?) so we need a bit of room ex: Pilot but the Pilot is pricey. We are looking for safety, comfort, pick-up, and affordable. Is there such an animal? I read the Escape seats are hard as bricks?
  • maggoo26maggoo26 Member Posts: 21
    I have a 00 Hyundai Sonota- is that in the 4%? It runs like a champ and we love it! It's got great pick up, all the perks for little money, bought it one year old 12k miles. I'm just worried the Santa Fe is too small.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Keep the van, and trade the sedan for something fun.

    Get a WRX! You only live once. There's a fun cult car that is the performance bargain of the decade.

    They even sell a wagon...

    -juice
  • maggoo26maggoo26 Member Posts: 21
    Hate the van- it's agreed. Got hit by a crane last year, van has got to go! Love the car, really. Yesterday I knew what a WRX was but today- no, what's that again? Another thought is that the one child is 3 so we have a carseat in both vehicles. I think you're saying that there isn't anything that fits all the specs right?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    In that case you might find the WRX wagon a little small as your only family/trip vehicle.

    The Forester has a little more passenger room, but a lot more cargo room, than the WRX. Next year a 2.5l turbo should arrive that would fit your wants, the question is price.

    Have you tried any of the vehicles listed in this topic? Each has its own appeal. The SF is unique and value priced. The Liberty sits you up high and would be best off road. The Escape offers 200hp and good passenger room. The Vue is the wide body and offers a unique CVT.

    Obviously, I favor the Forester. It's at the very top of CR's ratings for reliability, and my personal experience has been similar. Gas mileage is great - I average 25mpg - yet it's not at all slow, even besting some V6s. Ride and handling are both good, the AWD works full-time, and the content level and price make it a strong value. Top that off with the only IIHS "Best Pick" in crash tests in this group, and you have a winner.

    Street prices start around $19.5k, but that includes AWD, ABS, A/C, CD, and power stuff. A loaded up XS Premium was being offered for $22.4k at fitzmall.com, and that has the huge moonroof, heated seats, side head/chest air bags, alloys, you name it.

    Check out the others as well. Since you like your Sonata, you may prefer the SF. Good luck shopping.

    -juice
  • maggoo26maggoo26 Member Posts: 21
    Juice-

    Thanks for the info. I personally like the Forester but I'm still working to convince my husband it's not a station wagon. The 2003's look nice and are affordable! I think we may go take a look. Thanks again!
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Get another van. There is no need for an SUV in your case, if you buy one you are just giving in to peer pressure. Your demographic fits a mini-van to a T.

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Being a "wagon" is an advantage - the bumpers must meet federal standards (check IIHS and they suffer the least damage of any model here) and the roof must meet crush resistance standard (150% of the weight of the vehicle). Also, no rollover warning label on the visor.

    -juice
  • maggoo26maggoo26 Member Posts: 21
    Okay, here's the problem. I drive the car a good deal of the time because it's easier for me to park in the garage at work so my husband is stuck with the van- which I guess is an ego issue because he hates it. Just had to have it and now he hates it (there wasn't a problem when I was driving it everyday but now that he's got it...). So, now I'm trying to compromise. I think it's going to be a SF. Just got off the phone with him. I guess you can't buy a veh. anticipating company. He seems to really like the SF and I have yet to hear anything bad about them- right? That is the general concensus right? I just want it all to be settled!
  • mtngalmtngal Member Posts: 1,911
    about the SF. We test drove the V6 and I thought that you got lots for your money. If you live in a city and not in the mountains, then you would be fine. I thought that the tranny was the weak link for me - I accidently got it to downshift to too low a gear on a freeway overpass. If I can get a tranny to hunt that easily, it would not survive my 6,000 feet-to-sea level daily commute. Many don't care for the styling, but I liked it (my husband didn't).

    So if you live in the mountains or travel often through them, you might want to look at one of the other vehicles on this list, or an Outback. If you are a "flatlander" then buy the SF you like.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    That's exactly why people buy them, they don't want to be caught dead in a mini-van. Shallow people :(

    -mike
  • clever1clever1 Member Posts: 123
    Better to be stuck *with* a minivan than stuck *behind* one...
  • mtngalmtngal Member Posts: 1,911
    A friend of mine who has grown kids has a minivan and loves it. She used to have a car, but now doesn't want to drive anything else (unless going to their mountain property where they take their full sized 4x4 truck - the "road" in requires 4WD). It has tons of room for yard sale trips, has far better access to the back than most SUVs and is comfortable to ride in. I still don't see why people would trade such practicality for an image.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    is 50% of what sells cars. (and trucks) Just ask any advertising agency, or any carmaker.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Or ask people buying the H2! I've "interviewed" 4-5 of them and every single one of them looked at me like I was nutz when I asked how it did offroad or if they took it offroad EVER. They all told me "no we bought it for the image, we'd never take it offroad" to which I respond "Wow, sorry to hear that, it's pretty sad that you are so shallow as to have to drop over $50K for your image" :)

    -mike
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