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Comments
Oh, I KNOW what you mean! Still, it would be nice if you dropped by and said "hello" once in a while - we'll remind you that you DO have a life beyond the forum! ;-)
Everyone else is invited too - we could use some fresh voices. (IDLSUVWDY
tidester
Host
SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
One row is fine by me (for now).
Just checking in.
What is new in this debate? Have any of these cartrucks improved at all in offroad agility? I really like the looks of the Escape, but am dubious about its quality and offroad durability.
I would like at some point to step up to something a little bigger for towing, but want to meet the following:
tow 3000lbs easily
haul 3+3 people (2 bench seats) plus 4 big coolers and a grill to the football game
full frame
at least 31 inch X 15 tires
solid axles front and rear
roof rack
external tailgate spare
6 or 8 cylinders
I know gas MPG will be bad, but hopeful?
no fancy trim levels, ability to hose out back
resistant to New England road salt
limited slip rear, or decent rear which can take a detroit locker
suggestions?
Bob
I also was hoping for something smaller.
You'd think with all the great materials and technologies they have now, they'd make a plastic body (like Saturn) which doesn't rot out, and is light in weight for better MPG, yet you can hose out, or modularize for removing parts for off road use. I would love to see something like a Jeep Scrambler with a plastic body, with steel bumpers, instead of steel body and plastic bumpers.
Bob
I doubt I will find anything which meets all the criteria, but would be interested in seeing which meets the MOST.
Oh, and we BOTH missed the Trooper.
-mike
I am seriously considering looking into this:
http://www.wagonmaster.com/
It is a long drive from MA to TX, but could be fun, and get an awesome car out of the deal!
Either that, or pick one up as a project car, and have it redone. The main problem is body rot. The rest can be taken care of just fine.
But-
1. minivans are too big and waste too much gas (for example the Oddy comes with V6 only - the CR-V a 2.4L 4-banger)
2. anything bigger than a mini-ute is a waste of space and anything smaller just won't fit us, the kids, the dog, and the gear.
3. minivans are overpriced (the Oddy costs $7000 more than the CR-V).
4. Ottawa has a lot of snow in the winter and while the main roads in town are generally clear - guess what doesn't happen on the secondary roads (at least not until you've already shoveled yourself out and then the snow-plow seals you back in).
5. The 2002 CR-V has as good front, side, & offset ratings as any Subie.
And soccer season is only 2 months out of year here, whereas snow lasts 4 to 5 months. Besides I don't need a real SUV - they only get you stuck in worse places.
anon - I love the old wagoneers - they would be fun and certainly unique these days. You do sound like me - you want something they don't make yet. I'd probably look at a 3/4 ton crew cab pickup, probably a diesel (long term dream of mine).
I looked at the CRV and thought they were still underpowered, plus no one around here had a manual to see if that would make a difference. I didn't really like the styling either, so I didn't try very hard to find one. And I do see more of them stuck up here when it snows than anything else (well, maybe there are more pickups in ditches). That could be from dumb drivers rather than the cars - for the most part, SoCal drivers who are "flatlanders" don't have a clue of what to do when it starts to get slushy. I've never seen a Subaru stuck up here, though. But that could be that they tend to be owned by people that live up here.
My wife and I both love the styling, and the roominess.
3/4 ton crew cab diesel pickup sounds good, but kinda big for the wife to drive. Why do American cars always have to be so excessive? I would LOVE to see a Jeep Scrambler, with 4 cylinder turbodiesel, plastic fenders, metal bumpers, good towing capacity, etc, etc, etc.
We had considered almost every vehicle on this list. My 10 year old son's favourite was the Liberty, my 8 year old daughter's the Escape - but the CR-V did most things well enough that as a package it came out on top for us. Since we don't tow, a V-6 wasn't necessary and we could trade better gas mileage for that and slightly worse acceleration - but these are after all bricks on wheels and you are only going to push them through the air so fast. We have had the CR-V only two months and haven't tested it yet in extreme winter conditions.
Bob
We are considering buying a Forester for ourselves. We live in a moderately hilly town in the ozarks, where we get significant (6+ inches) snow maybe twice a year. The main problem here is that, when the snow starts to fall, the road crews don't do anything to clear them or make traction better. I have recently taken a job five miles from my kids' school. I am going to need a way to get to them, even when the roads are not easily passible by my Camry. I need a way to go up slight hills in 2-3 inches of snow. I need a way to get my husband home from work (also about 5 miles away) without him walking (which is what he ends up doing now - ditching the car in a parking lot and walking home). If we lived in So. Cal. where it doesn't snow, we would not be considering an SUV at all. But here, and in these circumstances, we think we are willing to pay more (in real initial costs and in long term lack of fuel mileage) to gain a little bit of security.
We have looked at the Forester and the CR-V (both tops in the crash ratings). We like the Forester better because of the visibility out the back window, and the fact that the X comes standard with features that the CR-V comes with only in the EX version (ABS, side air bags). Also, Honda dealers tell us they've never seen a 5 speed CR-V, and we can get a manual Forester. Over all, it looks like the Forester, for us, is a better fit.
Anyway, I just thought I'd try to give some insights into why someone with no offroad interests would consider an SUV. Basically, if they made an AWD Camry or Accord, we'd get that instead. There are just no other AWD/4WD options out there for those of us who want it. (And if there are, please let me know!)
Tamara
They actually were able to have a say in anything to do with the purchase of your car? Kids should be seen, not heard. It always cracks me up when parents ASK their kids what they want to eat or what they want to wear instead of putting food in front of them and put clothes out for them.
I remember when Dad would come home with a new car, and we'd sit in it and pretend we were going somewhere, or pretend we were driving, and finally he'd come out and take us for a ride. Those were the days.
Your explanations and reasoning sound logical and reasonable to me.
I don't have any kids but I have to agree with your assessment of buying a SUV. I do think that mini-SUV's like the forester and CRV are more of a tall station wagon then anything else. Most large SUV's are vans with more ground clearance and less interior space for the mileage it will get.
I have a 2002 CRV because I like to throw bikes on top and I have a 18 foot kayak that hangs off the back of the CRV by about three feet. If I had a low riding car that kayak would be game for some rear-ending.
mtngal,
If you thought the 2002 crv was under powered you should probably get out of the SUV market and go with a car. The CRV is one of the fastest SUV's. A lot of people, unsuspectingly, judge a vehicles power by the sound the engine makes. More sound = More power. Wrong!
The CRV is very fast but has a very quiet engine.
Bob
First of all, if it is only twice a year, can't you just stay home those two days or at least for half a day?
"...a job five miles from my kids' school. I am going to need a way to get to them, even when the roads are not easily passible by my Camry."
Why? Don't they have buses or galoshes in the Ozarks?
"... I need a way to go up slight hills in 2-3 inches of snow."
Snow tires are a much cheaper option. They work fine for rear wheel drive sports cars in that little snow.
"... I need a way to get my husband home from work (also about 5 miles away) without him walking"
Give him the car with snow tires, and make the kids walk.
Problem solved, PRICELESS!
I think you are missing a key concept...
The Forester, CRV and RAV4 are CARS!!!! They are not SUV's. They get mileage as good as family sedans only they have more ground clearance and a boxier interior space. They burn as clean as family sedans, actually the three I mentioned above burn cleaner then a majority of the cars out there. Then to top off my argument, rear wheel drive vehicles with winter tires are useless. You are correct if you have a front wheel drive car with snow tires it can go through anything unless the frame gets hung up. Hence the extra ground clearance!
The Forester, CRV and RAV4 are CARS!!!! They are not SUV's."
No kidding! I guess I did miss that.
"...They get mileage as good as family sedans..."
Wait, they ARE family sedans.
"...to top off my arguement, rear wheel drive vehicles with winter tires are useless."
I have to STRONGLY disagree with you there. I have had RWD with retread snows and could go skiing in VT after a blizzard (and did) without too many problems. Just stick a bag of sand or 2 cinder blocks in the trunk and you're all set.
"... You are correct if you have a front wheel drive car with snow tires it can go through anything unless the frame gets hung up."
Been there. Had a 92 Civic which I took to the drug store in a Nor' Easter, and got there fine with good snow tires. When I came back out to leave, I couldn't move! Snow tires, no matter how good, won't help if they don't touch the ground!!!
"... Hence the extra grond clearence!"
Yup.
I agree, if you wanna put weight in the back of the rear wheel drive car you can get places like a front wheel drive.
Now I see what he meant.
The Forester is just an all wheel drive wagon. (Not that there is anything wrong with that.)
They had a Forester.
I thought it was great! Roomy, comfortable, powerful, etc.
It is DEFINITELY NOT an SUV, though. It lacks offroad prowess, towing capacity, ground clearance, low range diffies, etc.
Real nice car, though. I'd probably pick that over the CRV or some of those.
I think the Liberty is a real SUV for offroad action, and the SantaFe and Escape are inbetweeners, which might be able to do some mild stuff, but not too far off the roads. You'd need some bigger tires on either to get out on the dunes or through any substantial mud.
-mike
If you thought the 2002 crv was under powered you should probably get out of the SUV market and go with a car. The CRV is one of the fastest SUV's. A lot of people, unsuspectingly, judge a vehicles power by the sound the engine makes. More sound = More power. Wrong!
The CRV is very fast but has a very quiet engine."
The 2002 CR-V does have sufficient power for every day commutes, and the engine is very quiet and refined. However, and it seems mtngal agrees, when you add some weight to it and try to climb a hill it (the engine) becomes taxed. At least that was the feeling I got when we test drove one with an auto tranny. It has impressive 0-60 times, but you sacrifice several other "SUV-like" (towing, tire size, etc.) characteristics for that performance.
We didn't look at the Forester (I wanted a wagon but my wife didn't) but I can't see how it doesn't suffer from the same lack of power. At least with an auto transmission.
-Frank P.
You can lock all four wheels together in the Escape/Tribute. I just used the Escape's 4X4 on the beach last week. I was a little afraid of getting stuck because it was my first time, but I have to say that I was pretty impressed. The sand (hard or soft) was no match.
When we were pulling onto the beach, an older couple in a Camry were in the process of being chained to a Tacoma. The driver of the Camry (why he was on the beach I don't know) had managed to bury the car up to the front bumper in sand. Imagine how he drives in the snow!
Bob
If this is true I'm gonna go and sell my Trooper tomorrow. Forget about getting a G-wagen, H2 or adding expensive lockers from australia! I think you are quite wrong about locking all four wheels together, you can't even do that on a jeep wrangler. Only the G-wagen and H2 (perhaps 1 other) can LOCK ALL 4 WHEELS together!
-mike
Alright, off my box, the third row seat I have mentioned only for the times when family comes to town, I know it's only once or twice a year but during those times it's usually nice to visit when traveling from one location to another and some families don't really like taking two cars. I was just throwing it out there as one of the nice things about some of the recent models, ex: Pilot, Envoy, etc. A real nice experience would be if the 3rd row folded up and you were able to retain that extra cargo space the rest of the year.
I'm not sure who said it but I have mentioned before that my husband is the main push for an SUV because he doesn't like the van, which he is currently driving. I have proposed the idea of buying the Forester which I will then drive and he will then drive the Hyundai (those of you who have hung out for awhile may be familiar). He's not going for it. He would like a vehicle that he would also like to drive and the Forester is too wagonish and he grew up in a wagon, blah blah blah....real issues here! I'm working on it though because everything I have read here has been leading me to the Forester!
Bob
Bob
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tidester
Host
SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
You are right. I didn't mean to sound like I was singling out the Forester, but was responding to a post (I think).
I think the Liberty has a 4-Low and decent towing, but I'm not positive about the towing.
Just put some sand in your trunk, and buy a decent set of snow tires. Here is a good place to get some tire info on the latest tires, which beat the popular Blizzaks:
http://www.greendiamondna.com
and
http://www.high-tec-retreading.com
http://www.high-tec-retreading.com/testimonials.html
We are also considering the Legacy, but the Forester is a foot shorter and would fit better in the garage.
As for snow tires instead of an AWD - would they do the job as well? And can you use them all year, or do you have to swap them on and off for snow only? The car we are replacing is a 12 year old Mazda 323 (front wheel drive). We could just keep it and put snow tires on it, if that would work as well/better. Then again, the Forester is a much safer car, has 4 doors, and a cd player ;-)
And Anon.2 - remember the key to gaining respect is to give it. If you don't respect the opinions of your kids, you can't really expect them to respect yours
Tamara
-mike
Tamara- well said.
Snow tires- I have the same question. Are they all year because convenience has a lot to do with things. Who wants to visit the auto shop every time you need your tires swapped? Not me. Think of storing these tires. Safety is also an issue and the Forester has excellent ratings.
-mike
I'd probably look at a 3/4 ton crew cab pickup, probably a diesel
Okay, pet peeve alert. Around here there are TONS of poseurs who buy Ford Superdutys and Cummins Rams and USE THEM AS STATION WAGONS!!! It kills me to see trucks with a 12000 pound towing capacity and no trailer hitch. I guess it ticks me off most because I drive a tiny little convertible, which means that in traffic my head is about even with the 4" exhaust pipe spewing an unholy black smog, and I can't hear myself think because of the clatter. Yeah, you can haul 6 people and their stuff. Yeah, you get 15 mpg in the city (better than some vans). You're still a poseur. Sell your compensatory truck and get a van, for gosh sakes.
Okay, I'm better now. As for the 3rd row seat issue, my mother-in-law is in town for the week, and she rented a Caravan just so she can tool around town in the same car with my wife, her sister, and their babies - oh, and her ex-husband (my wife's dad) usually tags along, as weird as that seems! I think I have my wife convinced that our next car should be able to haul 7 in a pinch (including rug rats). We're leaning towards a 2002+ MPV or a used Audi A6 Avant with the backwards 3rd seat. What I'd really like is a 3rd row option like the Audi's in a Subary Legacy GT(not Outback) wagon with the 3.0 H6, but Subaru doesn't want to sell me one. I'd even take a Beaner (LL Bean edition, for the non-initiated) if it had a 3rd row, but no dice.
-Jason
-mike
IS there such a thing as fuzzy warm math?
Jaserb-Audi A6 Avant? What does that look like? I'll have to look that one up. Sounds interesting!
Yeah fuzzy math is funny, I always thought math was cut and dry as well.
-mike
There is a big difference between asking your seven year old what car she likes and letting her pick the car. Surly you can see that.
It does no harm to ask which car she prefers and why. It teaches her how to ask for other opinions, and how to deal with opinions that are not the same as her own. And sometimes she notices things that we did not notice (because we were too busy driving the car - not sitting in the back seat as a passenger)
My mom and dad bought a Ramcharger when I was twelve. They came home with it one day after school. That car had the most uncomfortable back seat in the world. It had a button in the upholstery right where your backbone rests against the seat. And with the way that car jostled around, that button could really get painful after only an hour or so (on smooth roads, not even offroad). Had they taken us kids when they tried out the car, we might have noticed that button and expressed an opinion. I don't know if it would have changed their minds, but at least someone would have known about the problem before it was really a problem.
And that's why I ask my daughter for her opinion. She will ride in the back seat. I want to know how it feels to her.
And, no, I don't think passing kids through school just to improve their self image is a good idea. But listening to what they have to say is.
Tamara
I think snow tires on cars work awesome. I had an '87 Celica which was front wheel drive with a set of studded tires. It did far better then my friends GMC 4x4, unless it was very deep snow.
If you put these new winter tires on these 4wd vehicles they can go through anything! It is absolutely amazing. Probably overkill for most situations because a car with a good set of tires can through most anything.