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Comments
"As for snow tires instead of an AWD - would they do the job as well? And can you use them all year, or do you have to swap them on and off for snow only?"
Traditionally, you'd do the swap thing. More recently, all season tires became popular, but they are louder than summer tires, and worse in snow than snow tires. That is part of the reason 4wd and awd is more popular, I think.
These new ones have embedded particles which ar like studs, and they renew themselves throughout their lifetime, so you could use year round.
"... The car we are replacing is a 12 year old Mazda 323 (front wheel drive). We could just keep it and put snow tires on it, if that would work as well/better. Then again, the Forester is a much safer car, has 4 doors, and a cd player ;-)"
It sounds like you have a kinda old car and want to replace it. Have you considered another, newer Mazda (used Protege)? Perhaps a used Legacy with good snow tires would be a decent compromise for you. You'd still have a newer car, and have a little more room, and with snow tires, you'd be fine in what little snow you get.
"
And Anon.2 - remember the key to gaining respect is to give it. If you don't respect the opinions of your kids, you can't really expect them to respect yours
"
Kids don't have opinions. They are kids. They should listen to their parents. Parents should set a good example for their kids. Pretty simple really.
The Forester may be the most car-like model here, but I'm sure Liberty owners would argue that NONE of the others here are true SUVs. In fact, that's part of their appeal.
If you disagree - answer this question: what would you call a 2WD Escape? Is that an SUV? And the AWD Forester isn't? What about a 2WD RAV4? Shouldn't that be called a RAV2? Some models have just 7.1" of clearance, less than the Forester. Just because a federal agency has ridiculous loopholes (removeable seats = truck) does not make a 2WD wagon an SUV, sorry.
My Forester has been on the beach, too. So has Bob's. Ed and I took ours to the Pine Barrens and had fun crossing water. Capabilities are limited, but so are the Escape's. Remember, C&D got theirs stuck and needed a real truck, a Navigator, to tow it out. That Escape represented the class of car-based SUVs and just proves my point.
If you have to draw a line between SUVs and wagons, I'd draw it right under the Liberty. Anything less is not a true SUV.
BTW, other AWD car options include the Matrix/Vibe, Legacy, Impreza, Aerio, Jag Xtype, and Audi A4.
-juice
I was going to suggest a second set of rims and swap them yourself. People don't do this? Then somebody mentioned rotating tires, and this makes a lot of sense. Just rotate the snows in around Thanksgiving, and back out around Easter. I keep my tires in a corner in the basement.
The kids should not be helping pick cars. What next, telling you what to wear. Like I said, you shouldn't be having a 2 way conversation with kids, they should be seen and not heard. Let me clear that up a little. By kids, I mean under maybe like 8-10 years old. Older kids might be a LITTLE different.
I have enough spare rims in my shed, any more and my wife will kill me!
-juice
I want to go smaller than my current 31X10.50's because I want the capability to run with chains.
While I am at it, chains are a great option for anyone who sees either lots of snow, or just an infrequent dumping of snow and needs to get through. You can put chains on summer tires, which would be the perfect solution to the Arizona person.
My reason for chains on the Jeep is so I can pack up and go to VT skiing in the middle of a Nor'Easter if I want, which I DO want!
:-)
Bob
Bob
Juice- glad you piped in. The rotating thing may work but for me I hear it snow but is gone by mid afternoon. Would the snow tire idea work for me? Would AWD be a better solution. Juice, I just moved from DC. Small world! Snow in March- not going to miss that mess. Each year I would be standing by the window saying "BUT IT'S MARCH!"
No, that was the part about setting a good example which I mentioned.
AWD does have advantages in other than snowy weather. I guess it is up to the individual if it is worth it or not.
maggoo: It really sounds like you want the Forester and are looking for reasons (excuses) to buy it. Just do it! You'll like it, it's a nice car.
Anyway, if there are tires that work in the snow and on dry pavement in fall/spring then maybe we should go that way. We could swap them on in October and off in April. Do you put them on all 4 wheels, or only on the front two?
Tamara
Bob
Setting a good example for your kids is a good idea but not listening to them is a bad one and in not doing so you are not setting a good example. What happens when they are teenagers and need to talk to someone, an adult- not another teenager (which is where they generally get their info and who is just as clueless), and they know they can't come to you for advice concerning drugs, sex, and other very adult issues? You must keep the doors of communication open. I would rather my son get the correct information from me and be in the loop of what is really going on in his life then be shut out of it and find out the hard way. You said you would listen after age 8 but the groundwork begins much younger than that. Age 8 has already stopped trying to talk to you.
Off roading- I'm wondering, are you all talking about mud bogging or just camping?
Most places recommend 4 snows for front wheel drive cars. I never did this, because I realize that the front will pull and the back might come around. I put snows on all 4 for my wife's car.
I am planning on putting snows on all 4 in my current car, a Jeep Wrangler.
You knew what I meant paisan.
Do you always attack people when they prove you wrong?
As far as the kids, I think there is some give and take there, and I was generalizing. It just irks me when parents ask their kids what they want to wear or what they want the parent to buy at the store, or things like that. Kids need structure, and you can set the example for them in how to make decisions and deal with others. You eventually start letting them do that on their own. I just don't think the kids should parent the parents.
Please, can we get back to cars?
Steve
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SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
http://www.edmunds.com/used/1999/audi/a6/4dravantawdwagon/photo_1.html
And the rear facing 3rd row (kids only):
http://www.edmunds.com/used/1999/audi/a6/4dravantawdwagon/photo_5.html
I was sorely tempted by a 1999 with 41k miles at $18k with no reserve on eBay. Really low mile 99-2000s with all the toys can be had for less than 22-25k. A local used VW specialist has three for about that. Beautiful inside and out, room for 7 (in a pinch), Quattro standard, every luxo-toy you can imagine. Downsides are the high initial price ($40k-ish), somewhat underpowered engine and questionable Audi reliability.
In 3-4 years or so (with the Santa Fe at 100k++ miles), I can see myself picking up a 2002-2003 model with the bigger V6 (3.0L, 220 HP instead of 2.8L, 200 HP) and slapping an extended warranty on it. Or, in my dreams, an S6 Avant (340 HP 4.2L V8 in your mommy-mobile, anyone?)
I remember when I was a kid we had 3 different wagons with a rear facing 3rd seat: a Ford LTD (baby blue beast - gotta love it!), a Chevy Celebrity and a Volvo. We would fight like cats and dogs over who got to sit in the "way back".
-Jason
We used to go to NH for vacation, and I'd be stuck back there, pressed against the window (if it was up) with the dog. Our Dodge wagon didn't have the rear seats, though.
Can you say car sick?
Then, I got to ride up front between Mom and Dad. (2 brothers and sister sat in back seat)
On topic: Any current wagons or SUV's have a front bench with 3 seat belts?
Tamara
We had a wagon in CA- I'm not sure what replaced it, a van maybe? Those were the day! Lots of room though, there was nothing that wouldn't fit. Does it still hold true for the current models?
-Jason
Size-wise, I think the A6 is maybe slightly bigger than a Legacy wagon. No 4'x8' sheets of plywood, though. And the interior is so nice I'd hate to put anything dirty in there.
Back on topic and related to dirty cargo, I loaded 6 wood pallets into the back of the Santa Fe last weekend. We just put in sod, and I had to return them for a deposit. Who needs a truck, anyway ;-)
-Jason
What's the draw for those big vehicles, then, if they don't even seat 3 across?
Taurus/Sable would be fine, but they stink offroad I'd imagine, and probably have somewhat limited towing capability with front wheel drive and all.
Are there any RWD wagons (besides cute utes and minivans) still available?
I cannot speak for either the Forester or Rav4, but the 2002 CRV meets LEV II standards nationwide. The CRV surpasses the 2004 requirement and takes it beyond that and should be ok until the current 2010 emission rule!
Now that I think about it, I believe the RAV4 does meet the 2004 standards. I wouldn't be surprised if you could add the 2003 Forester to the list.
I assume you are asking about the traditional American Station wagon that was killed off by the invention of the mini-van and the marketing of the SUV. Then no, sorry, they are all gone. No current FS car wagons out there.
Kids should be kids, and parents should be parents.
In this part of the world, those large SUVs are extremely popular with serious anglers. They fill the back end of the vehicle with tackle and tow heavy fishing boats from lake to lake. I have friends who go bird hunting 30 days a year with 5-6 English setters in the back end of their Suburban. They not only use every square foot of storage space for gear, food, clothing, etc. but they need the 4WD and high clearance capabilities of the Suburban to handle muddy backwoods forest roads or poorly maintained gravel roads in pheasant country.
It isn't all about people.
Steve
-Jason
Soccermum02: We did look at the Matrix, and it is similar to the 323 in size. And I did like the all plastic cargo area. But the AWD/4WD version is almost as expensive as a Forester (within $1000 if I remember right), and the Forester has more legroom, better cloth on the seats, and more cargo room. And we like the look of the Forester better, too. The Matrix looks too much like the PT Cruiser :-b
Tamara
Here is how the standards are being executed at both the California state level and the federal level. Usually manufactuers never meet these standards but Honda has! The Honda CRV is a LEV II emission vehicle and you can see how it fits into the overall scheme.
Here is an exerpt from www.ucsusa.org explaining the relationship between Tier 2 and LEV II standards...
"Tier 2. Tier 2 is a fleet averaging program, modeled after the California LEV II standards."
The vehicles available with front and rear selectable lockers from the factory are the G-Wagen, Rubicon TJ and H2. I don't know about the Rovers but they might as well. With these lockers you can get an exactly even distribution of power to all 4 tires all the time.
As for kids selecting what kind of vehicle to buy, I bought the vehicle first and once the kids come along they'll just have to fit!
http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/roadtests/2000/July/200007_roadtest_ford_escapexlt.xml?&Manufacturer=Ford&Name=Escape&class=18&page=7
My point is, you have another option that can't be found most of the other small SUV's. Most people, myself included, will probably only use it once or twice a year so the normal FWD mode (or Auto 4X4) is just fine for the other 363 days.
Imagine those dogs in the back of an Escalade!
I've actually taken a chocolate lab and a huge lab/doberman on a 3 hour road trip in the back of my Forester. When we arrived, Mocha jumped out, went to the bathroom, and then jumped back in! I guess dogs love Subies!
The Escape is still inherently a part-time only system. You are supposed to engage that only when the pavement is slippery, or risk overheating the AWD. So most of the time, it's still reactive. The button can be useful for short periods, though.
The systems with center VCs (Forester manual, RAV4, and Santa Fe) can send power to both axles all the time without overheating. That means more neutral handling and more even tire wear (usually the fronts wear quicker), which tells you the rear wheels are being underutilized for traction. Plus, each axle only gets half the torque, so you're less likely to slip in the first place.
The automatic Foresters are different. They take several inputs and can adjust the torque split pro-actively. So let's say you are driving up a wet boat ramp. It knows you are on an incline and will send most of the power to the rear axle all before you even start moving. Hence it might not slip at all.
Most FWD-based AWD systems will spin the front tires first, then reactively send power to the rear.
So I'd pick the full-time systems on the RAV4, Santa Fe, and Forester over the part-timers on the Escape, CR-V, and Vue any day.
The Liberty is a whole different can o' worms.
-juice
It snows in parts of SoCal. In fact, one morning I got a Wrangler with 30" tires high centered on the buildup of packed snow/ice (snow was almost to the top of the hood). I go through the snow tire debate with myself every winter, and have ended up just leaving my AT tires on. The rubber they use that make snow tires so good on the ice/snow has a lower heat rating (and wear rating). My commute is always 95% high speed good roads and warm weather (sometimes downright hot) - only about 10-20 miles will by snowy/icy.
Up here the highway patrol run road blocks and won't let you past without either 4WD, chains or 4 snow tires. I'm allergic to chains at 4:30 am when I leave for work, so to keep everyone happy I want 4WD/AWD.
I'm leaning toward a manual WRX (really fun to drive, a wagon or a sedan), but haven't totally ruled out the manual V6 Liberty or the Outback Limited (H4, manual). I have such a high speed elevation gain that most auto 4 bangers have a hard time. Manuals mean that I can downshift to 4th gear and still drive 70, where an auto will go hunting trying to maintain speed.
-juice
-mike
-Jason
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
In this part of the world, those large SUVs are extremely popular with serious anglers. They fill the back end of the vehicle with tackle and tow heavy fishing boats from lake to lake. I have friends who go bird hunting 30 days a year with 5-6 English setters in the back end of their Suburban. They not only use every square foot of storage space for gear, food, clothing, etc. but they need the 4WD and high clearance capabilities of the Suburban to handle muddy backwoods forest roads or poorly maintained gravel roads in pheasant country.
It isn't all about people."
Other than the clearance issue, we used to go ice fishing with 4 people, and 2 boxes of gear, plus bait buckets and have no problems. We also used to go on family vacation 3/4 up NH with a boat in tow, and the boat loaded to the gills as well as the wagon (picture a kid's face pressed up against the glass).
(I haven't hollowed out a cat yet, but know people who have.)
:-)
Last time I checked, volcanoes/fires don't release benzene, toluene, xylene, and ethylbenzene. Last time I checked the smog problem in California isn't a result from volcanoes/fires. Last time I checked (O)3 pollutants in cities are not from volcanoes/fires. etc....
Here's another thought... how about repairing and reinforcing natural habitats and reforestation? Or at least focusing some public attention on the destructive environmental effects of rampant deforestation as a cause of increased pollution (and increasingly bizarre weather patterns). Air pollution is not all about cars or car exhaust, that's for sure... Save a few trees and drive an SUV!!!
Tamara6 - I totally agree, if it's a difference of $1000, I would rather have a Forester than a Matrix. Here it is almost $5000 difference, but a Forester is still a better buy.
http://www.subaru.co.nz/news/index.html?id=400
Bob