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Just wondering if anyone knows how much of Suzuki is owned by GM?
I heard it was 10%, is this correct?
Danx in advance.
It had been ten percent and they doubled their stake in it; I think back in '00 or '01.
Steve, Host
I'm sure you could find a Lexus lemon, that doesn't mean they tend to be unreliable. You just found an exception.
Conversely, I've seen owners of Audi 4000S sedans swear up and down that they own the most reliable cars on the road, with 200k miles on them and still running strong. Again, that certainly doesn't mean Audis tend to be reliable.
If you manage a fleet of maybe 12 or more cars, simultaneously, and they all give you problems in the same trouble areas, then I think it might be fair to draw the conclusion that a certain trouble area is common. You have a more significant sample.
1-2 cars is just not a significant sample, not ever.
-juice
Ford earned its reputation for poor reliability over a span of many years. In fact all three members of the "Big Three" developed reputations for shoddy quality during the 70s and 80s. Truth be told, quality might not have gotten any worse during that time frame but that's when Japanese imports started showing up in large quantities, giving the American car buyer something to compare Detroit products to.
Quality control has indeed improved (and continues to improve) throughout the auto industry and Ford is certainly part of that trend but just as it takes many years to develop a reputation for poor quality, it can take just as long to change public perception. Take Hyundai for example, they developed a terrible reputation back in the late 80s when they introduced the Excel (an automotive disaster on par with the Yugo). However, Hyundai must have taken the criticism to heart since now their models consistently get good scores for reliability and have for several years. But there are still plenty of people who won't even consider a Hyundai because they still associate the brand name with poor quality.
I think Ford has a similar problem. There is good base of loyal owners but many potential new buyers are hesitant to consider a Ford because of their less than stellar reputation. Conversely, these same people will give the benefit of the doubt to Honda or Toyota when they hear a news report of a recall because of these manufacturers’ hard earned reputations for bulletproof reliability. While this may not strike the Ford owner as "fair" its just part of human nature.
Were I a satisfied Escape owner trying to champion the car I drove, I would focus on the positive improvements in quality and reliability and quote statistics from sources like CR and JD Powers. Anecdotal evidence is okay, just realize that it will do little to change someone else’s preconceived notions of reliability. I wouldn’t bash other brands since that only looks like an attempt to change the subject and divert attention. I also wouldn’t try and start a discussion about which model has the most recalls. In fact, I would freely acknowledge the fact that Ford was too hasty in bringing the Escape to market but then point out that since that admittedly rotten first year, the Escape’s reliability ratings have gone way up. Of course that’s just what I’d do :-)
-Frank
'00 windstar se, so many fit and finish problems, recalls that i was so glad when the lease was over...
^^^^^ so referring to your preceived reliability feelings... i would have to wait to see severals years of stellar consumer reports numbers before i would ever consider ford again.
Later I had a 1987 Honda XL 250 motorcycle. On my 21st birthday, the carb cracked and the engine basically blew up, actually breaking the valve stems and destroying the whole top end.
Neither story would stop me from buying a Civic today if I was shopping in the FWD compact segment.
Nice post, by the way, Frank.
-juice
The whole industry has improved, consumers simply to not tolerate unreliable cars. If you look at JDP, the difference between the best and worst are just fractions of a single problem per car.
Even with CR, the best report 8 problems or so per 100 cars while the worst are in the low 20s. That sounds terrible, but we're still talking about 0.22 vs. 0.08, or a difference of 0.14 per individual car, i.e. likely no difference for most owners.
-juice
Industry average was 269, and only 5 mfrs bettered this mark: Toyota (207), American Honda (210), Porsche North America (240), GM (262) and BMW North America (264).
Bottom five were Land Rover (472), Kia (432), Daewoo (411), Isuzu (393) and Volkswagen (386).
Quite a spread.
then beware of flying pigs.
I thought you were just rejecting the whole survey.
That means the worst manufacturer in the industry (VW) has only about 1 more problem than the average car, and this is over a 5 year period, I believe.
From the other angle, Toyotas only have 0.62 fewer problems than average over a long, long 5 year period!
I don't think that's quite as much of a spread as people think. If Ford is somewhere in the middle, then it's likely within 1 problem of the Toyota, or 0.2 per year.
Certainly not the doom-and-gloom that some people imply when they bust on Fords. The way some people talk you'd think a Ford owner would be fixing something at the dealer every weekend.
In reality, it's more like every 250 weekends.
See what I mean?
-juice
"The study is based on responses from more than 48,000 original owners of 2001 model-year cars and trucks. It measures problems such as wind noise, excessive brake wear, vibrations, and the replacement of parts not called for under normal maintenance."
Again, it is from an AP article dated June 30, 2004.
If they ran a similar article in 2005, I missed it, unfortunately.
There was not a full listing, but other mfrs mentioned were:
Ford 275
Daimler Chrysler 302
and both were improvements over the prior year (by 12 and 9 respectively).
And what I think the results are saying is that even the top-rated mfr had an average of 2 such problems in just a few years. This surprises me. Maybe I'm interpreting it wrong.
Still, I'll take one less problem. The fewer the better. Particularly when many shops "can't duplicate the problem" first time thru.
Who needs the inconvenience (at best) or the aggravation?
So while it's one criteria when shopping for a new car, it might not be as high up on the list as it used to be. Things like performance, fuel economy, and availability of safety features have moved up the list, while the small differences in durability has probably moved that criteria down the list a bit.
-juice
For me, first and foremost is a reasonably-priced vehicle that has the best chance of starting and driving reliably for many years.
YMMV.
-juice
Nowadays reliability between companies are very close and the main difference that will make one car last longer than another is probably the owner. I mean a Hyundai could last a lot longer than a Porsche if the Porsche never gets an oil change and is driven like... well... a Porsche!
Thus, I would have to say that what I'm going to use the vehicle for and the price are the first factors that I would consider when buying a vehicle.
I didn't consider buying one.
Also, how do you arrive at your conclusion that reliability has slipped down the list of buyers' priorities?
Seems like the opposite is more likely.
Buyers have always been seduced by the sizzle, but now, thru the internet, many shoppers have access to the experience of owners, for better or worse.
I can deal with the small stuff.
Like price, performance, features, etc.
We all have preconceived notions of certain brands and specific cars or trucks that are realible or unreliable, so a history of good reliability might still be a tie breaker. I bet it often is.
-juice
Lexus on top, 139 problems per 100 vehicles over 3 years.
Kia on bottom, 397 problems.
Industry average, 237.
Interestingly, Ford Chevy and Chrysler are now shown above average.
If you are interested in the article and a graph with all brands shown, here is the link:
http://www.jdpower.com/cc/auto/ratings/vehicles/FindJdAwards.jsp
Go to the bottom of the page, and click on Vehicle Dependability Study.
That kind of waters it down a bit.
-juice
You really think there'd be that much spread between models within the same brand?
Some people are never happy.
The Consumer Reports reliability ratings for new vehicles released last week showed significant differences in what to expect from different models within a given brand - Nissan/Infiniti, for example.
http://www.pnnonline.org/article.php?sid=6302&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
Four models from Nissan and its luxury brand, Infiniti - Nissan's Quest, Armada and Titan, and the Infiniti QX56 - are on Consumer Reports' list of 2006 models with the worst predicted reliability. But the new Infiniti M35 and M45 are among the most reliable models. Other Nissan models, such as the Murano and Sentra, have above-average predicted reliability. Historically, Nissan and Infiniti have done well in CR reliability surveys; many vehicles from the automaker have had above-average reliability over the years.
"The message to consumers is clear: You can't gauge reliability based only on a nameplate. Some automakers do have a better track record but individual models - especially newer ones - can have problems," said David Champion, senior director of Consumer Reports' Auto Test Center in Connecticut. "New-car buyers should always check our reliability rating for the model they're buying."
But with Mazda, for instance, a Miata is a lot more reliable than an MPV.
-juice
Would someone explain to me why the 4 cylinder engine from the Elantra and the 6 cyl from the Santa Fe would mysteriously become unreliable in the Tucson? Same applies to the transmissions. Maybe it's the Tucson specific parts and components taht are going to be unrilable? Better check those taillamps lenses, Tucson badges and mag wheels...
Every car will bring bad luck from time to time. My sister in law had a 2000 Corolla that was awful, a co worker had to have the engine replaced in it's Forester, some friends Altima are awful while others seem fine, and so on.
At least with Hyundai, with the lenght of the warranty, you have enough time to dump the car before the warranty is over if you happen to have a bad one.
And to write that the BMW X3 is reliable??? In a parallel world maybe??? Where was I reading a road test where the rear suspension collapsed on an easy trail?
Even tough poorly rated by CR, my Volvo XC90 has been very reliable up to now.
Maybe they got confused after the toaster's long term test... :P
WRT to CR I sometimes I wonder why as well. But let's back up with the BMW thing. Doing what they did to the X3, which is a street vehicle, is the same as putting an LS430 on an "easy" trail, breaking the suspension components and then calling it unreliable. Both cars are street vehicles and do not do trails.
-juice
-Frank
Any suggestions on a small SUV with AWD, pep and good MPG?
Thanks!
I ask because the '06 got softer fabrics and a longer travel suspension, so it should be more cushy.
The 05 was more fuel efficient, but made 8 fewer horses.
I'm not sure if any of these ride much softer, SUVs tend to be a bit stiff.
-juice
Love everything about it except the seats. Planning to drive a Saturn Vue tomorrow but already have lower expectations for it than the Forester.
Is the o5 really more fuel efficient....hard to find except in the XT. version.
The Vue is the opposite, very soft and even mushy. I don't like them at all, so who knows? You may end up loving it. They're spongy and tend to "give" a lot, especially side to side. I feel like I could slip out of the chair.
-juice
Suzuki GV--lost interest when I was told to expect a great 22MPG from a slick looking saleman. There is only one dealer in my area and I think he is the only salesman. Looks nice inside and out...a little bigger than I expected. Took a spin around the parking lot...more truck like than I expected.
Saturn Vue--very professional presentation of the entire SUV from a helpful salesman. I was impressed by the polymer panels, interior, and mileage figures. I did not like the cheap looking chrome. Drove like an American GM product...loose steering and handling. Otherwise nice.
Subaru Forester--I posted elsewhere about the firm leather seat, but found that by releasing the lumbar support it seemed to ease up a bit. I love the pep of the normally aspirated engine and the MPG. I will probably buy in the near future. Wish the warranty was better, but love the size, handling, and my local Subie dealer.
Hyundai Santa Fe--Our family of five drivers have had three of these. One was totaled in a terrible front-driver's side collision and no one could believe my son walked out uninjured. Drives well, handles well, and is very reliable. Local dealer treats us like a Volvo dealer would. Excellent service and the warrenty has been honored on all small problems. Radio has been the only negative. Four different ones have been installed and reception is still terrible. 100K approaching and still going like it was new! WOuld buy another if a Subie Forester didn't exist. In MHO this offers the best bang for the buck.
I haven't tried the Liberty or Escape. I am looking for something that offers safety, reliability, good MPG, and I don't think the Liberty fits that criteria. (Although I do love the look.) Ditto for the Escape.
I'd be interested in others opinions!
BTW, I had the same reliability (and radio) experience with my 2001 Santa Fe. Glad to hear your son was well protected by the Santa Fe!
30 mpg seems a bit unlikely from a 3.5l V6. Maybe it's geared ultra-tall.
-juice
Guy