Gap Insurance

marsha7 · April 2006

One place I must agree with you is that you may use your auto ins multiple times in the life of your vehicle, but you will only use GAP once in the life of the vehicle...

:shades:

Exposure: your statement is partially correct...yes, your exposure will decrease over time as your car is paid down...and your vehicle will be depreciating at the same time...if you have a 3 year loan and a moderate down payment, the chance is worth taking...my point is just that for most folks who put less than 10% down, and finance 5,6,7 years, their car is depreciating quite rapidly and the loan is being paid down very slowly...their gap may be well over $5-10 thousand for the first 3 years, maybe into the fourth...if they are racking up 20K miles or more, the gap may even widen over the first 3 years...GAP ins is even more important then...

Further, for the folks who do not need/want GAP, they are usually in a better financial position, so they can absorb the difference, but they are also the ones who do not put zero down and finance over 7 years...so, USUALLY, the ones who do not need it are the ones who put a substantial down payment and only finance over 3 years...the ones who need 7 years are the ones who are hardest hit by the gap, so they need the GAP ins...

Yes, one is playing the odds...but the chances of a wreck can happen on any day at any time...to me, and to those whom I would offer advice, I say that the $300-400 cost of the GAP, to insure against the possible payout in the first two years of maybe $10K or more, even if you HAVE money, the cost is worth it...even if you have $10K in the bank, why take the chance of spending it when a small premium may save it???...it IS your money, spend it as you wish, but the nominal cost of the ins is well worth it to me, and I would tell most folks to buy it...

Again, if they do not have the $$$ for the downpayment, and they finance 5,6,7 years because they cannot afford the higher payment, they are textbook candidates for GAP, because they are the exact folks that are devastated by the difference when their car is wrecked...

YMMV...

:):)

snakeweasel · April 2006

my point is just that for most folks who put less than 10% down, and finance 5,6,7 years, their car is depreciating quite rapidly and the loan is being paid down very slowly...their gap may be well over $5-10 thousand for the first 3 years,

Ok first thing I am not saying never get gap insurance, I am just saying that its not always the wise choice.

Secondly if your buying a car and getting a loan thats more than 5 years your are over buying and I strongly suggest getting something more affordable.

Finally unless they drive mega miles or have a very high interest rate most people should be right side up by 3 years or very close to it.

I say that the $300-400 cost of the GAP, to insure against the possible payout in the first two years of maybe $10K or more,

If you are going to be upside down on a loan by $10k you are buying a very expensive car most people will never be that far upside down, not even close. If you will be at most $5,000 upside down on a loan $400 is a little high for gap insurance.

Again, if they do not have the $$$ for the downpayment, and they finance 5,6,7 years because they cannot afford the higher payment,

Again 2 things.

1.) I never said never get gap insurance, I said that not everyone should get it, it all depends on several different things.

2.) If your are taking more than 5 years to pay off a car you are over buying your car and I strongly suggest something less expensive.

3.) Odds of needing gap are very slim.

marsha7 · April 2006

As a PI attorney, I see clients whose cars are often totalled...more ofen than you think, they are upside down between $5K-10K...you simply must realize that with $1000 down (a common downpayment) on a standard American car, a $30K car after 1-2 years will only be worth in the low 20s at best...their loan in the first two years (of a 5-7 year loan) has paid down virtually minimal principal...they are often upside down more than you realize...and, with many SUVs pushing $35k-40k out the door, this REALLY happens more than you realize...naturally, large downpayments would cure this, but you are under the mis-impression that people actually put something down these days...most barely put anything down, and then (remember this) they roll over all that negative equity from their trade-in...

So, a $35K car out the door is now a $42K loan...then, when the car is totalled in 12-24 months, they still owe over $40K but the ins will only pay $25-28K...

Certianly, they are buying more car than they can afford, that is why they put little down and finance over 5-7 years...

Your opinions are valuable, but your facts are quite incorrect...GAP is probably useful/mandatory for well over 75% of all car buyers...it is a rare person who will not be hurt by having to come up with more than $3K if their car is totalled... :shades:

sky23213 · April 2006

I've followed the dialogue and would gladly join. I've read this entire thread from the beginning and Bob has dispensed some very valuable advise, some of it even prompted me to act... but on the GAP Protection I'll partially disagree and try to make some points. Actually, snake already pointed out a few things that I definitely agree with: don't blindly buy GAP, if you make a loan for more that 5 years you're probably overbuying, etc. What I would like to add is also, that the dealer should be the last place to shop for GAP. I've been offered one every time and they ranged from $499 to $599. Do check with your insurance agent first! I've carried it (notice the past tense) on both my vehicles until necessary, and then cancelled. And it cost only $14/6mo = 28/yr, or $140 if you choose to keep it until you pay off the last penny u owe on it, and that is not necessary. And, yes, I bought my cars with no money down, brand new. But I want to point out that, as mentioned earlier, everyone needs to do the math themselves for their particular situation, so they can be covered completely for a small sum, and without playing the odds. What I've been doing in both cases I had kept track of the value of my cars compared to what I owed. I removed the GAP on the '01 Galant about 2 years after purchase. On the Honda - only 10 months after. 100 % protection without playing the odds for about $25. (Then I followed Bob's advice and doubled my liability coverage - and he was right - cost only 1.75/mo). I looked up several dealerships what they ask for a similar vehicle is more than what I owe on mine. I always leave the sales tax and tabs as a buffer between what I think the car would cost to replace if totalled and the ins adjuster's estimate. So, please do the math, do your homework, skip the stiff offered at the dealer if u can and choose whatever is right for you. My opinion though is that even if you can afford to pay the difference in case you're upside down , you should still carry GAP - if purchased wisely it's such a cheap protection if you get to need it.

rroyce10 · April 2006

.... There's nothing wrong with shopping the price of Gap insurance .... most Credit Unions sell it for $275 or less (depending on the price of the vehicle) ..

But what most people forget in their "calculations" .. is the "real world trade-in value" of their vehicle, and lets be honest here .. Galants aren't known for their "Rolex" style resale value ..l.o.l...

2 simple examples in the last 2 days on 2 different price points ...

Customer "A" just traded his low miler 02 Bimmer 745Li in on a new $48,000 ABC vehicle .... the trade is worth $33 on a good day - and he owes $39 ...

MSRP: $48,220

sale price: $46,000

trade value: $33,000

difference figure: $13,000

taxes on difference: $ 910

tag: $49
__________________________

Sub total: $13,959

payoff: $39,187.23

total: $53,146.23

$$ down: $4,500

TBF - to be financed: $48,646.23

Drive it over the curb: it's worth $39 - $40,000 on a good day.

Does this guy need Gap.? .. considering he's already $9grand in the bucket .. and when August/September rolls around, he'll be heading south to "at least" $10/$11,000+ .... Gap is cheap insurance.

Customer "B" just traded his 01 clean low mile Kia 4x4 Sportage in on a new "XYZ" vehicle .... the trade is worth $4,000 on a nice sunny day - and he owes $7,100 ...

MSRP: $29,827

sale price: $27,987

trade value: $4,000

difference figure: $23,987

taxes on difference: $1,679

tag: $49
_____________________

sub total: $25,715

payoff: $7,047

total: $32,762

$$ down: $2,500

TBF - to be financed: $30,262

Drive it over the curb: it's worth maybe $22ish ... come August/September, it's worth under $21 .... does this guy need need Gap.??

It's cheap insurance ........

Terry

snakeweasel · April 2006

Well I am a CPA and I do know a little about financial situations. That being said I will repeat I am not saying never take gap insurance, I am just saying it is not necessary for all (or even 75%) of car buyers.

Even a $35K car will be paid down to the low $20's in two years. Now lets face it, most buyers don't buy $35k cars. Most buyers buy cars in the mid $20's or lower. It is hard to be $10K upside down on a $25K car (unless your rolling over another loan).

Plus the rarity of having the total loss makes it an unwise investment in most cases.

rroyce10 · April 2006

.... All do respect Snakeweasel ...

... but 75% of the buyers today are in a negative equity position ... and it doesn't make a difference if they drive a $15,000 Mazda or a $95,000 Mercedes ....

The 2 examples I used .. are just the average guy buying a car, not the extreme ..... we need to get out more.

Terry.

british_rover · April 2006

The average price of a new car now is what $27,000 or so? I think that contradicts your statement that most people buy a car in the mid 20,000 range. If you figure that then people roll in some negative equity from the previous car even if it is only a couple of thousand dollars then you are instantly buried.

marsha7 · April 2006

Almost anyone who trades in their car in the first 3 years has negative equity...if they roll over the neg equity into the loan, being upside down $5K-10K is quite simple and common...

We must remember that we are insuring against the TOTALLED car, thereby having to come up with the difference...if a car is wrecked, but repairable, than GAP never enters into the scenario...it is simply my opinion that, altho totals make up a small percentage of all auto wrecks, one never knows if today is the day that their car will be the totalled one, so GAP is a worthy recommendation...

I bought it at the dealer for convenience...if other places are cheaper, it only strengthens the argument for it, as you will be paying less for the same protection...

Please, feel free not to buy it, I certainly don't care...but when I talk to bankruptcy clients, and they tell me that they are anywhere from $5K to $20K underwater because their car was totalled and insurance did not pay off what they owed, I always ask them if they had GAP ins, and they ask, "What's that?"...when I tell them, their first statement is "Why didn't someone tell me about that before?"...well, I am telling all those who read this thread...

And, if you don't buy it, that's OK...just don't say you weren't warned...

As a CPA, you may deal with a class of folks with more money than the class of folks that I deal with...for my clients, I would venture a guess that over 90% of them MUST have it...

It really comes down to $$$...if you have it, then you either finance the vehicle shorter, make a larger down payment, or do not fear the possible payout if totalled...if you really don't have it, then GAP is probably a wise choice to preserve the lump sum that you can never seem to accumulate...

Lastly, is it spelled totaled or totalled???

snakeweasel · April 2006

My experience is when someone uses that phrase they mean no respect. That being said I have been told about people being $5-10K upside down on loans, thats not going to happen on a $15K mazda unless they rolled another loan into it (if so they have other issues).

snakeweasel · April 2006

The average price of a new car now is what $27,000 or so? I think that contradicts your statement that most people buy a car in the mid 20,000 range.

Actually it would support my statement. $27,000 is in the mid $20's range (Closer to $25K than $30K). Also remember that for every $50K Rover you sell they would have to sell two $15K cars to get to that average, For every $100K car sold Chevy would have to sell 4 Aveo SV's (at $10K each) to get the average car sold to be $27K.

If you figure that then people roll in some negative equity from the previous car

Not everyone rolls negative equity from a previous car.

snakeweasel · April 2006

I deal with all types of clients from single moms earning $20K to people making 10-15 times that much. Mostly on the lower end of that scale, I specialize in reorgainizing peoples finances to improve their financial positions.

audia8q · April 2006

That being said I have been told about people being $5-10K upside down on loans, thats not going to happen on a $15K mazda unless they rolled another loan

Really? the typical car buyer on that $15K mazda is going to put $0 or $500 down and finance the balance including sales tax reg fees etc for 72 months. I can assure you he or her is going to be upside down substantially for most or all of the term. This example is more the norm than the financially prudent buyer who puts a significant amount down and a short finance term.

snakeweasel · April 2006

You're giving me the rare exception not the norm, no more needs to be said.

marsha7 · April 2006

Actually, I, too, am in the business of helping people reorganize their finances...

:P

...they come to me to see if Chapter 7 is their best option for debts they cannot pay...about half of them qualify...

Also, for those that qualify (and I do not mean to beat a dead horse), many of those have auto loan deficiencies that would have been cured by GAP insurance (or, obviously, larger down paymts or shorter loan periods, but their cheapest solution would have been GAP...definitely cheaper than the cost of Bankruptcy...

)

audia8q · April 2006

nothing rare about it....come to our mazda stores and you will see its more the norm than you think...Are you basing your info on speculation or real first hand world dealer experience??

sky23213 · April 2006

:shades: Galants aren't known for their "Rolex" style resale value ..l.o.l...

Nope , not really, but that was the point I was trying to make - u might need to carry GAP a little longer than on a Honda.

And then, when discussing GAP, I believe we should use the retail, because the only time u need it is when the car needs to be replaced, not sold or traded-in. Insurance pays what it actually would cost to replace the car based on prices of similar offers on the market. At least that was the case with my poor Elantra (the Galant's predecessor). AmFam paid retail + tax and tabs. Otherwise, I'd been in deeep... mud :P if they had used the trade-in value... A 2000 Elantra in 2001 bought new with $700 in the hole and financed at Bank of Capone rates.

In my case I came out $300.00 ahead.

sky23213 · April 2006

And since we mentioned the Galant, what would a trade-in be on a 01 Galant ES, 105K, MN (rust starting to show it's ugly head), color is Beige/Gold. All maintenance by the book (if that matters).
Thank You

Kirstie_H · April 2006

You're more likely to get an answer here:
Real-World Trade-In Values

erical77 · April 2006

We just purchased a 2006 Honda Pilot yesterday and will take ownership of it this weekend. As the interest rate we are paying on the car is not much more than we are making on our savings account, we didn't put anything down. We declined Gap coverage at the time of purchase but were told we could still get it when we pick up the car (would just have redo the finance paperwork, but I assume if we paid cash for it we wouldn't).

Anyways, the Gap coverage through Honda is $595. I see it online for $299. What is the best way to go? Honda or online? Any suggestions?

Thanks!

wlbrown9 · April 2006

Hum...is the on-line coverage reliable? I wonder if they will be around in a couple of years if you need them? Is the company licensed to sell Insurance in your state? If so, you might be covered even if they went out of business.

Okay, how much upside down do you think you might be on the Pilot, worst case? $1000? $2000? Maybe $5000 at some point? If your risk is $5000 or more at some point, then a $300 premium for the insurance is not very high. If the most you think you might be at risk to cover is maybe $1500 - $2000, then the premium becomes closer to your risk. Depends on which risk you want to take...risk losing your premium (not collecting on the GAP) or not taking the GAP and risking covering out of pocket if something does happen.

Also to consider...you might only be at risk say 2.5 years if you financed the Pilot for 5 years, assuming it holds it's value pretty well. Also GAP will only pay if the vehicle is TOTALED or maybe stolen while you owe more that it's worth.

If you can afford to cover a couple thousand dollar 'GAP' out of pocket, then you could afford to not take the GAP. On the other hand, if you can NOT afford to cover the GAP out of pocket, then you might be advised to take it.

sky23213 · April 2006

Also, see post 161, I'm going more in detail there. But briefly, check with YOUR insurance company, the one that insures your vehicle, if they offer GAP. If they do, it's very cheap and just added to your premium, and also might be cancelled anytime the replacement value exceeds what you owe on the car. Since we are in similar situations (Honda vehicles, i.e. value doesn't drop like a rock), and sounds like your interest rate is pretty decent, I'd guess you'd need it no more than a year.

erical77 · April 2006

THANK YOU so much for your advice sky23213. I just called our insurance company (Met Life) and was able to add Gap coverage for $5 semi-annually! I know that since Honda's hold their values we won't have to carry it for that long, but I feel much better knowing that I have it (and can cancel it when I no longer need it). I haven't had the best luck driving, so this makes me feel much better (especially when I just saved a fortune!).

Again - THANK YOU!!

sky23213 · April 2006

You're welcome

Very good rate, nice job! This forum is great, isn't it? So far in between EW, parts and accessories the advice here had saved me close to 1K (GAP I figured out on my own much earlier). Enjoy your Pilot!

tpeila · May 2006

I cannot get it through the lender, nor my insurance, nor my credit union. I found a place online called Dravier Select but they do not answer the phone or return calls.

mibmiller · June 2006

I was wondering about some things with the gap coverage, some friends told me since i got gap though a dealer and I still would obviously have my regular insurance, they say that the gap from the dealer would cover the whole thing and I would still get a check from my insurance company, Is that true?

qbrozen · June 2006

No.
You wouldn't get a check from anybody.
Your insurance would pay the real value of the car to your lending company, and the gap insurance would pay the difference between that and what you actually owe on the car. If you owe as much or less than its really worth, the gap insurance pays nothing.

marsha7 · June 2006

secondary insurance, only paying off after your primary collision (if you are at fault) or the other guy's liability (if he is at fault) pays off...if you had no other insurance, GAP would not pay the full balance, you would be screwed...YOU will never collect from GAP, as it only pays off what you OWE, over and above what the car is worth (and this always assumes that your car has less value than what you owe, almost always true if your loan is longer than 3 years and you made a down payment under 20% of the purchase price, as your vehicle depreciates faster than the loan principal is paid down)...

If, you are in the 4th year of a 5 year loan, and you owe $7,000 and the car is worth $7,000, then liability or collision pays off your loan and GAP pays nothing...

GAP is most valuable in the first 3 years, where your car may depreciate from $30K down to $18K, but your loan has been paid down from $30K to $25K, that is where GAP shines...

rue1 · June 2006

My car that i bought two years ago just got 'totalled'.I initially bought my GAP Plus Insurance from the dealer, and then when i refinanced my car with a credit union i signed up for another policy (i wasn't aware of it, i thought they had just transferred the other policy. After the credit union filed the claim,i thought i would get my back my deductible (but i didn't because theirs is a standard GAP, which will not reimburse my deductible.It was in that process that i found out i had 2 policies) What should i do? Any advice?

qbrozen · June 2006

If the policy your credit union sold you doesn't cover your deductible, there is nothing you can do but suck it up.

rue1 · June 2006

can i claim from both policies or is that fraud?

marsha7 · June 2006

I think you might try and claim a premium refund on the first GAP policy, because, in reality, once you had the second policy thru the refi, I kinda think that Gap #1 was relieved of responsibility...since you can prove when you bought Gap #2, you could theoretically prove that #1 was relieved of responsibility upon your purchase of #2...

It is worth a try...whereas trying what you suggested may require an attorney to defend you...:):):)

sky23213 · June 2006

Wow, Bob, see what you did - now people carry two GAP policies :P
Just kidding, of course.
Thanks again for all the time you take to post advice on the Forum.
Chris

marsha7 · June 2006

Thanks for the kind words...heck, even I do not carry more than one gap policy per car, and I have to listen to my drivel 24/7...and so does my wife...:):):):):)

Bob

jagar100 · June 2006

Ok so we all understand Gap insurance. What I want to know, is what happens when you roll over a negative equity from your old car to the new car? Let's say I was $6000 upside down on my old car but I just bought a new car, say $30,000. Drove it off the lot and totalled it. I now owe $36,000. My insurance pays ACV $22,000. Will the gap pay $14,000 (which includes that $6000), or will it pay $8000 (not including the $6000 bal. on old car)????? :confuse:

Kirstie_H · June 2006

The way I understand it, GAP makes up for the difference between what the car is worth, and what you owe on it. If you roll negative equity into the new loan, it should be covered.

151ranch · June 2006

You would need to read the GAP policy. Generally, there is a limit of 115 - 125% of MSRP, or NADA book value at time of purchase. So while many GAP policies cover negative equity, some specifically exclude it, or limit the overall amount.

marsha7 · June 2006

it should take care of the neg equity, but probably up to a certain limit, read the policy...

So, if you were 15K upside down in your Town Car, and traded for a new Excursion (w/no down payment), in one year you could be neg eq almost 30K...I question whether Gap would pay all of it off if totalled...

jagar100 · June 2006

I just don't see it happening. There has to be a disclaimer in fine print that says it will not pay for balance on old loan. I know that my insurance company's loan gap coverage will NOT pay for it. I've put in a request from my car dealership to send me the gap policy so I can read it, although I haven't purchased it. They charge way too much for it when my insurance charge just a few dollars.

kyfdx · June 2006

Once you roll the negative equity into the new loan, then there isn't an old loan.. There is no way to separate the new loan into old money and new money...

But, I think the example given is a little extreme... If the new vehicle is only worth $22K, then you likely won't be able to get a loan for over $30K on it, anyway...

GAP insurance will payoff the balance of the loan, if the car is totaled... It doesn't matter why the funds were borrowed... just that they are collateralized by the new car..

regards,
kyfdx
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wlbrown9 · June 2006

Well, once a deal is done to roll neg equity into a new loan, there is no balance on an old loan. What you have then is value of the asset (vehicle) and balance of the loan. Also, deals can be written up at sales time to inflate trade value to cover negative equity. Difficult to really prove that you got no discount off new vehicle MSRP and real generous trade on the old. I guess the finance company needs to control how much they will loan on a vehicle.. 120% of MSRP perhaps? Something is wrong if they will finance $45K on a $30K MSRP vehicle. They are going into unsecured area pretty deep.

Hum. If your insurance company's gap will not pay for old loan, what is their deal? Will they only pay up to MSRP on the current? Even so, how do they account for neg equity rolled into one with rebates and discounts? Example, $40K MSRP GM/FORD/DC sold at $37K invoice with $5K rebate nets maybe $33.5K with taxes. IF XYZ banks will finance MSRP then your could roll at least $6K negative equity into the deal. Would you then have to submit to your insurance company copies of your buyers order and argue with them about trade value, etc.?

If this is the case, maybe the insurance company GAP is not equivalent to the more expensive GAP you could purchase through the dealship and should be called something else to avoid confusion?

sky23213 · June 2006

The way I see it, there's no "old loan" and "old car". You have one loan on your current new car. And your old car is not yours anymore - it belongs to the dealer. Still, Bob has a good point regarding the limits on the policy, it's quite possible that the ins.co. would have a safeguard against large gaps created by negative equity. Also, let's not forget that in case the car is totaled, the insurer pays the retail (I believe also called ACV - whatever it takes to get u similar vehicle), not trade-in value; plus tax and tabs.

sky23213 · June 2006

Didn't mean to duplicate your post, I guess we were writing them at the same time

wlbrown9 · June 2006

No problem. We are thinking along the same lines.

More on GAP. Since Allstate (my insurance company) has been really advertising 'Accident Forgivness" and "New Care Replacement" that seems to be a form of GAP, I went to their site to see if they had any details. Nope, looks like they want you to talk to an agent. I wonder if the agents have any documents that detail the coverage? Or do they just want to lure you into signing up and then bring out the details if you ever need to file a claim? Kind of disappointed.

jagar100 · June 2006

See if you can bring this form up: https://doc2.grangeagent.com/FORMS/FORM_files/1285_ik1086.pdf

jagar100 · June 2006

And this one from Safeco Insurance: https://safesite.safeco.com/EPSfiles/EJAGAR1_29120355.pdf

jagar100 · June 2006

If the dealership does indeed pay the old loan off as well as the balance on new loan, then yes, I can see why they would charge an arm and a leg for their GAP. As I mentioned before, I've requested their GAP disclaimer to be sent to me, (Toyota dealer)so I will update you guys on what it says.

wlbrown9 · June 2006

I was able to pull up the the one from Grange, but not the one from Safeco. The only real definite statement IMHO is the 125% of MSRP is the most we will pay. I'll leave it to the lawyers to determine what the carry over balance from a previous vehicle is without them showing a formula to calculate. What I am going on is the practice of showing inflated trades that include trade and discount. This might be a practice used in states such as Tenn where you only pay sales tax on the difference in trade and new vehicle not adjusted for balance owed. Exa, if you receive $10K on a trade and $3K discount then your deal would be written up as $30K sales price less $13K trade for a difference of $17K. Tax on $17K @ 6.5% is $1150. So, you owe $18,150 plus whatever you owe on the trade. If you owed $9K then your new balance is $27,150. If you were upside down and owed $12K now your balance is $30,150.

Now go forward a year and assume a total. Tell me what my cost basis would be on each of these examples? How much of my shown original balance on the new vehicle would be carry-over from the old loan? Do they use $10K or $13K as the value of my old vehicle? If the loan papers show $13K trade with no discount, does that mean under both examples that there is NO carry-over? Or would they try to argue some other value? Does it depend on the state how deals are represented on the sales order and does that have major bearing on what they would pay?

Sorry if I'm making this discussion more complicated than it should be, but without a complete explanation of how they try and calculate these things, if may be difficult to really know what happens. Has anyone been through this and gotten a surprise?

Good discussion,

Bill

jagar100 · June 2006

You are so right, about the unscrupulous practices allowed to go on at car dealerships so that they get maximum profit. The way it's written up, in your example, it would appear that the roll-over negative equity would be $13,000. I highly recommend a book called "Don't get taken every time" that outlines every sleazy thing done in dealerships. I had no idea that they gain commission by financing within the dealership, not to mention a bonus on every add-on. (GAP, for instance)

marsha7 · June 2006

sleazy dealer tactics, but I SERIOUSLY question anything from Allstate, esp when they say they will cover it all...all they need is one teensy-weensy possible exclusion, like the day of the wreck you highlighted your hair, and they can get out of it...maybe at the risk of blind faith, I would still get a Gap policy of I had Allstate...from the crap they pull here in GA, I would not trust them to pay out on a life insurance policy if the President of Allstate ran you over and killed you on videotape in the Rose Bowl on January 1 at halftime...

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