Snow/Ice winter tires

kiawah · December 2009

What makes it easy, is to buy a 2nd set of rims for the snow tires, and have them permanently balanced and mounted. It's easy then to put on and take off the snow tires, as simple as changing a tire.

mz6greyghost · December 2009

What makes it easy, is to buy a 2nd set of rims for the snow tires, and have them permanently balanced and mounted. It's easy then to put on and take off the snow tires, as simple as changing a tire.

Absolutely true. Better yet, if the Accord has optional wheels, you can downsize the snow tires/wheels to the smallest stock size wheel and tire that was offered by Honda for that particular model year, saving a ton of $$$ in the process.

greatpaints · December 2009

I went to Schwab's to get the Toyo Observe snow tire and they did not have what I needed in stock. I ended up getting Wintercat studded tires for my Rav4 on a staff recommendation. Holy macaroni! Talk about road noise! :mad: Noisy, noisy, noisy. Plus my fuel efficiency dropped significantly. I was getting 23/24 mpg and now am getting 18/19 mpg. On the plus side, we have had icy roads from freezing rains a few times and I have not slipped even a little bit. The tires have some serious tread. No snow yet.

xwesx · December 2009

Studded tires are going to be incredibly noisy compared to any (or most, anyway) studless option. They often give excellent traction, though, at least for the first few thousand miles.

xwesx · December 2009

I agree. If you are fearful of the occasional massive snowfall, you could also get a pair of cable chains to keep in the car for those situations that were just to much for the tires alone. I think it is likely your son will never use them, though, which is a good thing (assuming he is not getting stuck!).

I also support the suggestion of the dedicated rims, at the smallest rim size compatible with that make/model. At a 15" rim size, you can save $40+ per tire compared to a 17" rim.

clevelandred · December 2009

Thanks everyone for the info. Snow tires (studless) seems like the ticket with backup cable chains. One further question (or series) if I may impose. If you downsize the 17 inch wheels (FWD so front only) don't you change speedo, and what is the effect on handling? Does the change in rim size give you a different contact patch and what would the effect of this be?

The extra rims (stored in my garage no doubt when not in use) sound like a good idea. Putting chains on the car on a freezing cold morning seems like no fun.

Thanks

kyfdx · December 2009

1) FOUR snow tires... Doesn't matter if it's FWD, RWD or AWD...

2) Downsizing to 16" tires on dedicated wheels should not change the overall diameter of the tire/wheel combo, so no effect on your speedometer/odometer..

3) Some may disagree, but I would never put chains on the steering (front) wheels of any passenger car... If the snow is that deep, stay home..

Good luck!
kyfdx

shipo · December 2009

"Some may disagree, but I would never put chains on the steering (front) wheels of any passenger car... If the snow is that deep, stay home."

I completely concur. If a winter tire shod FWD car has a problem getting safely from point A to point B, then you shouldn't be on the roads anyway. FWIW, with just winter tires on pretty much any car FWD, RWD, or AWD, the car will still be able to push through snow that is deep enough to turn the car into a snow plow.

Best regards,
Shipo

mz6greyghost · December 2009

Downsizing is actually a benefit in winter driving for two reasons:

1. The taller sidewall gives a better overall ride, and helps to absorb the rough, uneven terrain that tends to rear its ugly head in winter driving (and not easily visible either).

2. The narrower tread actually helps to "dig" through the loose snow into a harder surface underneath, for better traction.

It's perfectly okay to downsize, as long as you stick with the same tire size as what the OEM size is. A great website to figure this out is Tirerack.com. It allows you to enter your specific year, make and model. It then tells you the size wheels and tires that were available, and also shows you some downsized wheel/tire packages that will work for your vehicle. Speedometer error will be well within the 2%-3% difference that's "okay" by most standards.

Handling will also be slightly softer, but it's more the winter tire that's to blame than the downsizing.

And I agree with the above posts, the cables will be overkill. They are more of a benefit to RWD vehicles, and shouldn't be installed on FWD. A good, quality set of studless (or studded) snow tires will work for 95% of the conditions up here. The other 5%? I wouldn't go anywhere anyway...

dudleyr · December 2009

Absolutely. Snows should be good enough. They close the roads in my area well before it is a problem getting around with 4 snow tires.

vf_guy · December 2009

I just picked up a set of winter tires mounted on steel wheels for my 95 Saab 9000. One pair has a fair amount more tread than the other pair. They are all the same tire brand/model/etc. I would think it would be better to mount the pair with deeper tread on the front as this is a fwd car for better traction. Is my reasoning correct? I am aware of all the disclaimers about using used tires. Thanks.

shipo · December 2009

A study was done a year or so ago on this very thing; FWD car and one pair of tires better than the other. The end result was that you should put the better set on the rear. Why? Virtually every in the test lost control of the car in winter conditions with the good set on the front and the worn set on the back. And why is that? Because in braking conditions, if the rear loses control first, the car will spin, and since the front has the better rubber, and because of weight transfer and all of that, the back WILL lose traction first.

mz6greyghost · December 2009

Stick with the higher-traction tires on the rear. The rule of thumb is that it's much easier to control the front end of a vehicle (or understeer) than the rear (oversteer), whether or not the drive wheels are up front or in back. This is especially true when cornering and braking.

vf_guy · December 2009

Thanks for the input. That now makes sense. Much appreciated!

krzyss · January 2010

Downsizing wheels still keeps over all diameter the same or as close to OE as possible.

Krzys

shipo · August 2010

Ummm, while having the best set on the front of a FWD car is the best for linear tradtion, it is decidedly not the best when it comes to driving safely in slippery conditions. Any number of studies (not to mention common sense) shows that when driving in slippery conditions, if the rear tires lose their grip on the surface, a FWD car can (and often will) "snap" into uncontrollable oversteer (i.e. the back end comes around so quickly that it is difficult if not impossible to recover from).

In every case, if there is a marked difference between the condition of one pair of tires versus the other, put the better set on the rear.

mz6greyghost · August 2010

You're acting like a spammer actually knows what he's talking about...

shipo · August 2010

Yeesh, I guess it was too early to see the spam link in the post; I'm down to only one eye these days as my other is so cataracted over I'm now legally blind in that eye. Sorry, my bad. :P

Mr_Shiftright · August 2010

Well as of now it's going to be *really* hard to see. :P

guitarzan · September 2010

For my 2000 Celica I had Blizzak WS-50's, and used them for six winters. (I am putting paltry miles on the car nowadays.) The compound that sticks to ice wore off in season three or four, but the aggressive tread allowed for continued safe driving. When recycled (yesterday) there was still a decent tread left, but I refuse to take tires down to warning levels anymore. It just is not that important to get every last penny out of the tire. Plus with age, tires weaken, which is something I consider.

To replace the tires I bought four Blizzak WS-60's at Tirerack. They were $8.00 cheaper than the latest model, the WS-70. Also there is currently a $50 rebate. I was going to have them mounted and delivered with a new set of steel wheels, but Tirerack ran out of wheels for my car. The wheels would have been about $160 total. Compare this with taking the tires and old wheels to an installer. I paid roughly $90 for the new tires to be mounted/balanced on existing steel wheels and the old tires recycled. The trip took a couple hours, and gas was spent.

I always mount wheels myself with a torque wrench. I found that even mechanics that use torque wrenches may use an average torque of 100 lbs although they should use the spec for the car, in this case, 74 pounds.

The WS-60's for the 15" Celica are directional, while the last set of WS-50's were not (although in some other sizes they may have been.) I suspect the tire may kick out snow or water better with the directional design. It is however hard to contemplate that these tires are improved. I recall first getting the Blizzak's. I went down a moderate hill at 35 mpg while driving on snow, and mashed the brake. The car simply stopped. With the sticky compound it is difficult to get the anti-lock to kick in. Amazing.

I used to think of snow tires as a great expense, however, the performance tires are not being used during the winter, and they are much pricier. If you do not break down the cost of goods much, consider doing so. I am only recently doing this more, economic conditions being so scary and all.

$320 - tires
$65 - shipping
$90 - mount
-$50 rebate
= $425

Divided this by (6 years * 6 months) = $11.81 per month for use of a quality snow tire. Add about $2 per month to depreciate the steel wheels over a 72 month life. (The wheels could last forever, or be replaced sooner, so this is just for the sake of including all costs.)

End rant.

xwesx · September 2010

I agree that they really do add significant traction to winter driving (I live in Fairbanks, Alaska, so I usually get six months of driving on snow and ice). Good all-seasons will usually get you around, but that's about it! Given the added life of two sets of tires, the overall cost of buying the winter tires is pretty minimal; especially if mounted on their own rims and changed, seasonally, at home.

I do not prefer the Blizzak because of its short life expectancy, but it is an excellent tire in terms of ice traction for a couple of seasons (15-20K miles if driven in cold, snowy/icy conditions). They wear incredibly fast on dry roads, even if temperatures are cold.

I just picked up a set of Continental ExremeWinterContact tires (never tried them before), so I will report my initial impressions once I have them and have them on the car, probably in another month. I also need to check the tread depth on my Goodyear Ultra Grip Ice tires before I put them back on the Forester. I put 7500 miles on those last winter and they were astoundingly good, especially in slush and deep snow.

shipo · September 2010

I have avoided Bridgestone winter tires for the same reason, their outer tread compound wears out way too quickly. I've had much better luck with Michelin Arctic Alpin and its descendants the X-Ice and X-Ice Xi2.

guitarzan · September 2010

Clearly you are not married to any particular brand. My favorites have changed throughout the years, but I am somewhat open to different ones now. The only stipulation is that the tire must do a very good job at its primary function.

Yes, all season tires are typically mediocre at everything they do, but not great at any particular function. I am glad my tire guy pounded that lesson into me years ago. Everyone around me uses only all season tires throughout the winter and I think that fact alone causes a lot of accidents.

I am far far from you in Cleveland Ohio. We have snow from November through April, sometimes in May and sometimes in October. It is a pretty bad city for weather for many reasons.

xwesx · September 2010

I plan to try the X-Ice one of these years. It is the most expensive of the genre (at least... it is here), so my old $800 Escort was not the car on which I was going to spend the extra $100 to try them!

xwesx · September 2010

Yes, all season tires are typically mediocre at everything they do, but not great at any particular function. I am glad my tire guy pounded that lesson into me years ago. Everyone around me uses only all season tires throughout the winter and I think that fact alone causes a lot of accidents.

I used to use all-season tires exclusively, on all types of vehicles, which amounted to about ten winters (probably around 80-90 thousand miles on snow and/or ice) of Fairbanks driving without ever using a winter-rated tire (studded or otherwise). I even used my old '69 C20 this way exclusively one winter and regularly for a couple more.

In Cleveland, I suspect deep snowfalls wreak havoc on all-seasons, but we don't ever get what a snow-belt resident would consider a "deep" snowfall (maybe as much as 12 inches / 25 centimeters over 24 hours once in a blue moon). It isn't so much a matter of getting around and/or "being safe" (in a general sense, such as driving distance, speed, stopping, etc) with all-seasons as it is being able to respond and avoid true emergency situations (those situations that arise without warning, such as a moose bolting from the forest directly ahead or an oncoming car veering into your lane). And, not all all-seasons perform as well as others. Some of them are downright dangerous to use in anything approximating winter, others are as good as some studded tires whose studs are past their prime.

The vast majority of the time, though, a crash is caused by the driver - not the equipment. You give an incompetent driver (for a given set of conditions) better equipment and the end result is going to be a worse crash. :P

----------

Although we purchased a couple of used cars in the past several years that came with dedicated winter (studded) tires, I think, for me, the real shift in personal tire habits came with the purchase of my Forester last Fall. I knew I would need a new set of tires (the stock Yokohama Geolandar tires are garbage on icy roads), so that expense was a given. So, I discussed preferences with my wife (since it is really her car) and she wanted the winter tires.

After experiencing that car (which is pretty darn competent in icy conditions, even with marginal tires) with all-seasons and the winter tires, I was a believer. It is not that I cannot drive the car safely without winter tires, it is just that I now choose not to do so.

When I have to use my old C20 in the winter, though, I'll just have to make do with the all-seasons because there is no way I'm going to splurge on winter tires for that thing!

xwesx · November 2010

We are having quite the unique weather here in Fairbanks this week.

The Goodyear Ultra Grip Ice tires are doing an amazing job on my Subaru Forester, getting me everywhere I need to go and anywhere I want to go. The best part is that the roads are nearly deserted, so I have leave to enjoy the drive to its fullest!

I drove my Escort yesterday, with the Continental ExtremeWinterContact. It did very well, too, with drivers slipping into the ditches all around, but I had to work much harder at keeping that car on the road just due to its "one wheel drive" nature.

Is it wrong of me to enjoy inclement weather this much?

:shades:

strokera4 · December 2010

I tried the Continental Extremecontact DWS All Season tires and they worked well. I was very impressed with its all season abilities. Its dry performance is just a tiny tiny bit less impressive than the factory goodyears that came on my Audi, but it more than makes up for that in its cold weather and snow performance. Really a great tire and its very inexpensive.

If you want to see what my car can do in the snow just watch this video.

http://video.ultimatestreet.com/video/11568/2009-audi-a4-drifting-in-1-foot-of-s- now

Hope the information helps you...

airtas · December 2010

isnt drifting bad for your tires?

shipo · December 2010

Why would drifting in snow be bad for tires?

dudleyr · December 2010

love to drift in the snow. Can't help myself. Snow means you can get a nice 4 wheel drift with opposite lock at reasonable speeds.

I drive pretty conservatively on dry roads, but snow time is play time. Of course with 4 snow tires - Michelin xi-2 currently.

xwesx · December 2010

So, did you folks have yourselves a lively game of rochambeau to decide who would get the privilege of playing in the unmolested snow? :shades:

lilengineerboy · December 2010

So the Legacy wagon has 205/55R16 Dunlop SP WinterSport 3Ds on a set of 16" WRX wheels. So far, it has been quite the set up and it earned a paycheck in last week's storms. My question was is there a recommended change in tire pressure with the winter tires? I believe the door sticker is 30/32 and I typically run 2-3 above that. Any thoughts?
These replaced Hankook IcePike W404s that were purchased used and had some issues with wear making they NOISY. I think those were considered "studable winter" and these new ones are "performance winter" and I have to say, for SE MI winters, these seem to be the ticket.

kyfdx · December 2010

If those are the stock size for your car, then tire pressures should remain the same.. (if you typically run higher pressures, then no reason to change)..

If you go +/- on the wheel diameter, then recommended pressures usually go up/down, accordingly...

Some people like to run lower pressures in deeper snow conditions, to get a wider contact patch, but I don't like to mess with my dry road handling, since that's still 99% of my driving in winter..

guitarzan · December 2010

The rating on the door represents what the MFR thinks is the best blend of comfort and performance. Adding a couple pounds improves stiffness a bit while comfort may suffer. I do this just like you do. I add two pounds to just the front tires, both in winter & summer, to stiffen them up and compensate for the 60% of the weight that is up front in my Celica. To me this helps the overall balance.

Just an aside: My snow tires are higher profile and dramatically more comfortable than the summer performance tires. Part of that is due to going with 15" wheels in the winter, one size down. The other part is the makeup of the tire material. My back actually feels bad when I put the summer tires back on.

Winter tires tend to have a much lower maximum pressure rating. You can find this on the tire itself. However, the tire can probably take another 10 psi more.

mz6greyghost · December 2010

I run the Dunlop M3s for my winter setup on my Mazda6, and I've run the same tire pressure on them as I do my summer wheels/tires (2-3 psi above recommendation), and I haven't had any issues in terms or traction or ride comfort.

chilli1327 · January 2011

All tires will wear evenly if you follow a few steps. And yes I know some tires are better than others, but make sure you maximize the pressure in the tires. I mean maximize for your vehicle, not the maximum pressure.
So, slow down in curves, do all your braking before you enter a curve, and wait until you completely exit a curve before accelerating.
I have always bought the cheapest tires available, but I always do my home work first. I search on different brands to find out any information that I can find. Hancooks are one of the best values out there, but it depends where you live etc. A tires price can vary by as much as 50% depending on where you live. Go figure. In Canada, we pay much more for shoes than our friends in the states.

shipo · January 2011

You completely missed the point of my post; it isn't that Bridgestone winter tires wear unevenly, it's that they use a different rubber compound on the outer layer of tread, and once it wears away, their tires lose much of their winter time grip.

As for all tires wearing evenly if you follow your steps, nope, fail. Try following your advice on a late model BMW, some Mazdas, and some Hondas and you'll be proven completely wrong. Instead, the only way to ensure relatively even tire wear on these cars is to drive the willies out of them when carving through the turns; drive them like a geriatric case and you'll find one shoulder of the tires gets worn out well before the middle or the outer edge.

As for buying the cheapest tires available, that's a fail as well. True, not all expensive tires are great and not all cheap tires are bad; but there is a rough correlation between the two metrics.

paisan · January 2011

So far I've found the asolute best tires for winter are Nokian Hakkapolita R. I've used them in 70* weather down to -10* and they work just as well across the whole range. For my new STi I just picked up a set of Michelin Alpine 3 tires, they are not as good in the snow but I suspect they may do better in the wet due to the deep grooves in the center.

-mike

lilengineerboy · January 2011

As for buying the cheapest tires available, that's a fail as well. True, not all expensive tires are great and not all cheap tires are bad; but there is a rough correlation between the two metrics.

I concur. The scariest tires I've had were Cooper Sport 1000s (the ones they advertise in the paper 4/$100 or whatever) and they were mediocre in every aspect. That said, my Kumho Ectasas on the '93 Accord were much more fun than the $$$ Michelin MXV4s that were on there before.

I have been very happy with the Bridgestone stuff I've had recently, and Dunlop has been good to me as well. I haven't had a "modern" Yokahama but the AVS Intermediates were great at the time.

xwesx · August 2011

If you plan to use the tires strictly for winter driving, I would recommend the Hakkapeliitta between the two. If I recall correctly, the WR can be used as an all-season, but the result of that is you give up a little winter traction and it wears fairly fast during the summer.

Everyone around here (Fairbanks, AK) who has used the Hakkapeliitta has nothing but praise for them, aside from the (local) price. If you can get them for the prices listed on that site, I doubt you'll come away disappointed with their performance!

It's not too early... we have more than a few yellow leaves on the trees! :surprise:

shipo · August 2011

Hmmm, a user name of tiresbyweb posting a link to www.tiresbyweb.com; seems awfully spammish if you ask me. :mad:

xwesx · August 2011

Didn't notice that little "coincidence."

semenzato · September 2011

Sorry if this has been asked, but my searches have been fruitless.

Here in California, under certain conditions (level 2), vehicles must either have chains, or have 4WD/AWD with M+S tires (mud and snow). (This is current, I just checked the CHP web site.)

If I understand correctly, M+S applies to All Seasons tires with a certain thread pattern, basically they need to have enough horizontal grooves. The designation is imprinted on the tire side. Unfortunately tire manufacturers don't seem to provide this information on their web sites, so this makes it hard for me to order tires on the web (from Costco, for instance). Specifically, I would be inclined to buy a set of Michelin HydroEdge but I don't know if they are M+S-rated (I kind of doubt it because most of the grooves are vertical.)

I understand that all-seasons tires are nowhere as good as snow tires, but that's what I am using now and they are good enough.

Does anybody know:
1. where this information may be available
2. whether the Michelin HydroEdge are M+S
3. what other popular modes are M+S

Thanks!
Luigi

hammerhead · September 2011

Find a Michelin dealer in the phone book, call 'em up and ask!

xwesx · September 2011

Well, you're right... many sites don't provide this information outright. However, most online places nowadays do include high-resolution photos of the tires they sell (such as TireRack), and you can clearly see the M+S designation on the tire. Take a look at the HydroEdge tire on their site; you'll see this to be true.

That said, I am not sure I have come across an all-season tire that was not stamped with the M+S designator, so take it with a grain of salt because performance can vary widely! If you plan to use all-seasons for all seasons (and will likely see them all), even with an AWD vehicle, I highly recommend you consider a set of tire chains if you drive in mountainous or otherwise steep terrain.

capriracer · September 2011

All Season tires are by definition those that have M+S, M&S, M/S, etc. designations. If the tire is called "all season", it has those letters on the sidewall. If it doesn't have those letters, it will be called something else - like "summer".

shipo · September 2011

All Season tires are by definition those that have M+S, M&S, M/S, etc. designations. If the tire is called "all season", it has those letters on the sidewall. If it doesn't have those letters, it will be called something else - like "summer".

Ummm, I'm not at all sure I accept that statement. I'm about 99.9% sure the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S "All-Season" tires I currently have on my Mazda3 do not have an M+S rating on them. Furthermore, now that they have in excess of 46,000 miles on them I've already ordered a set of replacement tires (currently sitting in my garage). The replacements are a set of Yokohama AVID ENVigors, and I'm about 99.9% sure they don't have an M+S designation either.

So, while you personally may not consider either of my sets true "All-Season" tires because they don't carry the M+S designation, the industry at large gives them a classification of "High Performance All-Season".

kyfdx · September 2011

I bet they do have M+S on them...

shipo · September 2011

We'll find out in a couple of hours.

xwesx · September 2011

Muahahahahah; it's on! :P

Snow/Ice winter tires

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