Connecticut Toyota Dealer Charged $3235 for Reinstalling A Timing Chain and some trivial items
My son is at college an hour away and his car vibrates a little when the speed is over 60 mph. We told him that perhaps the car needed to have its transmission oil changed, even though the mileage seems to be low at 74,000.
He took his car to a local Toyota dealer last Friday. The shop told him that the transmission oil is ok but talked him into other repairs totaling $3235. Being naive, he agreed to have his car repaired. When I happened to call him the next morning and learned about this 'deal', I told him to call the shop immediately and have them suspend the work. When he called at 11:30 am, the shop told him that the repair was done around 11am and he could pick up the car.
The labor cost is $2128. The hourly rate is $95. So that's 22.4 hours of work. The invoice shows that there was a 3 hours wait before any work was started. So the maximum time that they could spend on the car is about 7.5 hours and I doubt that even (shop opens 7:30 - 7:00pm Monday to Friday, 7:30am - 5pm Saturday)
One big item is 'reinstall timing chain'. The bill shows 18 hours of labor which amounts to $1710 plus $84.50 parts. The total labor and parts is $1794.50.
The water pump was replaced and no labor was associated with this item. The water pump costs $281 in addition to $1794.50.
Here's the description for the 18 hours work alone:
R&R FRONT ENGINE TIMING COVER TO ACCESS GASKET SURFACES
FOR SEALANT APPLICATION.
PROCEDURE INCLUDES REMOVAL OF FRONT ENGINE COMPONENTS.
VALVE COVER GASKET, R&R ENGINE MOUNTS & SUBFRAME REMOVAL WHEN APPLICABLE.
REINSTALL TIMING CHAIN. REALIGHNING GEAR & CHAIN AS REQUIRED.
We think that he got suckered big time but would like to know what's reasonable and hope that he would learn a lesson from this experience. He now knows that he should have gotten a second opinion in the future and not to be so trusting as there are a lot of dishonest people out there who don't have your best interest in mind.
I would also welcome any ideas if there's anything that we can do at this point. Thanks in advance.
He took his car to a local Toyota dealer last Friday. The shop told him that the transmission oil is ok but talked him into other repairs totaling $3235. Being naive, he agreed to have his car repaired. When I happened to call him the next morning and learned about this 'deal', I told him to call the shop immediately and have them suspend the work. When he called at 11:30 am, the shop told him that the repair was done around 11am and he could pick up the car.
The labor cost is $2128. The hourly rate is $95. So that's 22.4 hours of work. The invoice shows that there was a 3 hours wait before any work was started. So the maximum time that they could spend on the car is about 7.5 hours and I doubt that even (shop opens 7:30 - 7:00pm Monday to Friday, 7:30am - 5pm Saturday)
One big item is 'reinstall timing chain'. The bill shows 18 hours of labor which amounts to $1710 plus $84.50 parts. The total labor and parts is $1794.50.
The water pump was replaced and no labor was associated with this item. The water pump costs $281 in addition to $1794.50.
Here's the description for the 18 hours work alone:
R&R FRONT ENGINE TIMING COVER TO ACCESS GASKET SURFACES
FOR SEALANT APPLICATION.
PROCEDURE INCLUDES REMOVAL OF FRONT ENGINE COMPONENTS.
VALVE COVER GASKET, R&R ENGINE MOUNTS & SUBFRAME REMOVAL WHEN APPLICABLE.
REINSTALL TIMING CHAIN. REALIGHNING GEAR & CHAIN AS REQUIRED.
We think that he got suckered big time but would like to know what's reasonable and hope that he would learn a lesson from this experience. He now knows that he should have gotten a second opinion in the future and not to be so trusting as there are a lot of dishonest people out there who don't have your best interest in mind.
I would also welcome any ideas if there's anything that we can do at this point. Thanks in advance.
Tagged:
0
Comments
Sounds very expensive but maybe someone who is familiar with these will chime in.
I don't think the timing chain needed any repair.. Just had to be reinstalled after the front end of the engine was removed to the valve cover gasket and motor mounts..
I'm not familiar with that engine, but that's some pretty extensive work that's required to replace a valve cover gasket... I think I'd just let mine leak until it needed something else..
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
And, all of this work was done because the car vibrated "a little" at speeds over 60 MPH?
Something seems to be missing here.
Some examples of other charges: replaced a battery for $145 plus $70 labor.
Replaced a rim for $172 plus labor $30 because it's bent.
Air Fuel service purge kit for $60 plus labor $102. What's this?
Some other items that don't have names and I can't tell what they are.
I think that we got looted, period. What can I say? Obviously my son has a lot to learn about people.
Exactly when did your son pick up the car? The first thing I'd like confirmed is the documented time that the vehicle really was completed. It would take a very fast technician to complete that timing chain in around eleven hours. (not 7.5 as you wrote because you left out 3.5 hours for Saturday up to 11am) I'm not going to say that it wouldn't be possible once a tech has done that repair enough times but it is a common issue for these to have timing chain and guide problems.
We have your statement that they said that it was finished when your son called them, but what we don't have is proof that it genuinely was. It wouldn't be right for someone to say that it was finished at that point in time if it really wasn't done but there are far worse things that people sometimes say which of course causes me to ask again, exactly what time did your son pick up the car?
Now lets look at the information that the car was vibrating over 60mph. Where did the suggestion that a transmission fluid problem might be the cause come from? The bent wheel is a plausible cause for the vibration, but where is the rest of the information that we need to have an insight to the needed repairs? Was the check engine light on? Was the engine misfiring at times? The air/fuel service was likely basic maintenance of a fuel injection and an air induction service. Had there been any symptoms associated to the battery being weak? Was it still the original battery for the car?
Depending on the shops structure the tech may have helpers, or apprentices working with the technician which can make him/her much faster while they learn the trade by working on the job. The helpers would perform many of the time consuming steps as well as the simpler operations under the technicians direction. In slow times you may even find where a couple techs split a ticket and tag team the job. There just is no way to know from the outside. The only thing you really know right now is was the car now working correctly since the repairs were done or are there still problems?
Now, I will try to answer your questions one by one. My son dropped off the car on Friday at noon time. The invoice stated that there's 3 hours wait and the shop closed at 7pm. That would make the Friday's time of 4 hours.
My son picked up the car at 1:30pm on Saturday aftertnoon. I asked him not to go until I had a chance to talk to the shop's manager. I called the manager at 11:40am Saturday and he told us over the phone that his staff got the job done at 11am Saturday. The shop opened at 7:30am so it would make the Saturday 3.5 hours. Friday 4 hours + Saturday 3.5 hours = 7.5 hours. This 7.5 hours is for all of the jobs. That's my calculation. Does that make sense to you?
The invoice lists the technician's name that worked on the job. Only ONE technician. During our conversation with the shop's manager, he did not mention that there's more than one tech.
The check engine light was NOT on.
The engine did NOT misfire.
When my son took the car in to check the car's vibration sympton, the shop said that the car has 74,000 miles and suggests to have 75,000 miles maintenance done. When the car was lifted, some oil was on the ground. I suppose that's why the shop suggested to have the timing belt job done. Bottom line, is it reasonable to charge customer 3 times of the actual hours? Thanks for your time.
What engine is in this? 2.4l, 3.0l, 3.3l? Exactly how far into the engine did they have to go to address the leak?
Resealing the timing cover on some of the possible engines requires removal of the valve covers as well as the oil pan. (note plural as in one of the possible a V6s). "IF" that is the repair that was done, a top flat rate tech that really hustles would drop the engine and transaxle out of the bottom of the car as a complete assembly and do this job without everything in the way. With a helper or two this could be done much faster than a single tech could ever accomplish the job in the car, especially with the advantage that comes from repetition from doing similar vehicles over and over again.
The fact that the thread starts with timing chain, and now I see timing belt only works to make it more confusing to try and figure out if they really over charged or not. On one hand right now it doesn't look right but that has to be tempered a bit because you are writing from the perspective that you believe and want others to agree with you that they have taken advantage of your son. Maybe they did and that can be proven with the right details but its going to take a lot more precision and possibly a first hand reference at this point.
There are two issues that really need balanced here one is did they really do as much work as it appears was charged for or not. The second one is flat rate which is a system that sets the labor times for what the cost for a job will be. The way it is supposed to work is if the technician is faster then he/she and the shop benefits, if the tech is slower the customer doesn't get billed for an excessive amount of time. The system is supposed to make it fair to the customer because otherwise why should a shop employ the best technicians and everyone work hard? They would be better off having lazy technicians and take and bill for an entire week to fix his car if that was the case. But then we get the scenario that by what ever means a tech beats the labor time whether by a lot or a little. If they hack it up and don't do a good job then they get to do it over again for no pay again protecting the customer. But if they genuinely do it right and through ingenuity and the investment in special tools combined with knowledge and experience and a whole lot of hard work they do it faster then they are supposed to be rewarded for that with the bonus that they get for being faster than the billable hours. Now three times faster? While unlikely one really can't say that it isn't possible and that's the problem.
As a technician who worked flat rate years ago, when it took me longer to do a given job, I got paid what the job's time was, not the hours that it took me to do it and that is part of the cost of learning. That by design protects the customer. When I got better as a technician and faster I started beating the times regularly, that's the way that it is supposed to work. Then when I really hustled and learned to be more creative there were occasions that I annihilated the labor times and that allowed me to turn a decent overall wage for those jobs. That's the way that it is supposed to work and yes after a few years I could do some jobs in under half of the time that previously took me longer than the published time to complete. Now for the funny part. Then there were the customers who watched the clock and complained because now that I was faster (and in some cases much faster) I didn't take as long as they were getting billed for. Do you know what happened then? The bills got adjusted down and my pay got cut for working both smarter and harder and where I should have made a bonus there was none. For me the promise that was flat rate turned into a lie and eventually I tired of the game because I wouldn't cheat and so I left that world. Right now there isn't enough information to know if you really have been taken advantage of or not. You need someone there to investigate. Either way go ahead and complain, you can probably get a reduction on the bill. Just understand those hours will also be deducted from the technician whether he/she should have earned them or not. If that tech is a rip-off artist then we want him/her out of the trade and they have to be caught for that to happen. If that is the case you would be doing all of the honest hard working techs a favor. If that tech actually did that much work and it pays as many hours as have been billed then the only thing left now is for him/her now is to get their pay cut down for the effort and that will help them to learn that they need to do something better with their life than fix someone's car under dealer flat rate.
As much as I like people to agree with me (its obvious that you do too
I understand that everyone needs to make a living. It took my son many months of hard work on the side to pay for the repair bill too. I do intend to get hold of the general manager to get more insight to the hours myth upon his return from his vacation.
Since you mentioned about flat rate system, I found the below links. The author is very candid and the article generated many other responses that echoed his view. It's very educational. The second link is about Jiffy Lube exposed by NBC. Actually it had a rerun on TV and I happened to watch it on TV too. Again, thanks for your time.
The Truth about Auto Repair Industry
http://jimroal.com/repair.html
http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/You-Were-Robbed-NBC4-I-Team-Exposes-New-Tricks-and-Tactics-at-Jiffy-Lube-Stores-207304771.html
BTW the Jiffy Lube one. Does anyone think that the story really made any difference there?
NBC exposed Jiffy Lube back in 2006 and the CEO promised that they would not do the same practice back then. But here same thing happened again after seven years. I guess nothing has changed.
Thanks.
When I ran a large shop installation was included with the price of a battery.
Totally agree. Knowledge is power. Get multiple estimates for big ticket items.
"isellhondas">70.00 sure sounds like a LOT of labor to change a battery!
When I ran a large shop installation was included with the price of a battery.</
Yes. Totally agree. This seems to be such a dwarf comparing to the timing chain thing so it did not even seem worth mentioning in the first place. I listed it later to give you more insights as to the pricing system of this dealership.
Mitchel shows the battery replacement at .5 hours and .3 to test it for a total of .8 hours. That would be $76.00.
Have fun with that information.
When I googled, I found plenty of the information regarding timing chain replacement. But nothing about 'reinstalling' timing chain.
The bent rim was the cause of the car's vibration when the speed was over 60 mph. That was why the car was brought in in the first place. Supposedly they found the root cause and the work should stop there. No?
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
In that sense, wouldn't a timing belt a better design? Well, that's another subject.
Right now it doesn't quite add up (well, it adds up - to a lot!). Be nice to know the whole story at least, so please keep us posted.
Based on the internet tips on negotiation, I should remain calm and nice talking to the GM. It's best to allow room for corrections such as type-o's before I resort to other measures.
I will report back on the result. Thanks to you folks generous input, we are equipped with more knowledge and will not sound so clueless. Regardless of the result, this is a very educational experience. This is a great site full of car experts who are so helpful and knowledgeable .
As far as the timing chain goes, the tensioner passes through the timing cover, so anytime that the cover has to be removed, the tensioner needs to be addressed as well.
Of timing belts and timing chains. When timing belts first started showing up in cars there were a lot of people who had the opposite opinion and didn't understand why we were going to belts that had to be serviced at a specific interval and going away from chains. Both are fine and there are advantages and disadvantages to each design.
The battery service. That's one of the really strange parts about the "flat rate system". The really simple work actually pays quite generously, and the more difficult the work becomes the less it pays. For example...
The timing chain only pays the technician 4.7 under dealer warranty. Its safe to say that NOBODY on this board can turn that time. I can come close, real close now that I got to the shop and looked up the information. I do know what engine this is and what the repair entails. I average about 5.3 hours to do the timing chain on the 2.4l, (I've done six of them over the last five years) and yes that usually includes the water pump. If I did a couple of these each week I could likely shave the other half hour off of the time and make the 4.7, but I doubt that I'd ever come in under it, especially now since the surgery.
They opted for doing a cleaner job, which included the removal of the timing cover and the subframe. They charge 18 hours for an oil leak fix on a regular basis. They do 1 to 2 of this type of fix daily. The 2005 Toyota Camry engine size 2.4 is known for oil leak problems at low mileage.
There's no way for us to confirm if they did what they claimed that they did. My only question is whether they still would have opted for using this cleaner method if the car was still under warranty. The only thing that we are certain about is that our wallets got cleaned very well.
We took our 2008 ford to the dealer the other day for the oil change. The multi point inspection showed there's some oil leak. The estimate for the fix called oil pan gasket is $411. We may get another estimate before we do anything.
The moral of this incident is that prevention is better than cure. Get multiple estimates. Thank you all.
I could tell that mike felt really bad when I told him that we took the car back and my son does not have a car as a punishment for his foolishness. He said that he was not there. Sometimes he would intervene and offer an alternative if he knows more info such as how long the car Is needed for... Sounds like a reasonable guy. I actually felt bad for him. I would not like to have his job.
As stated earlier, that same tech doing the same job at warranty rate would only have been paid 4.7 hours for removing and reinstalling the timing cover. Normal customer pay would have been in the 7 to 7.7 hour range. If the cylinder head had to be removed, that job is around 11 hours with only a minor addition of an hour or two to also deal with the timing chain of required. There is no way this should have been 18 hours.
A seasoned technician or anyone in the service sector will soon learn that honesty is the best policy especially in this Internet era.