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www.michelin.com
Your Host, Bruce
You can check proper inflation, on a tire-by-tire basis, using a "chalk test." Use some heavy "sidewalk" chalk you can buy at a toy store in a light color. Chalk the edge of the tire where the sidewall meets the tread, overlapping chalk on both the treads and sidewall. Place these marks in three different locations on the tire. Take your car for a regular spin around the block, at cruising speeds. The chalk should be worn to near the edge of the tread/sidewall meeting point for proper inflation for cruising speeds. If the chalk is worn off the sidewall, you need more air (or you took a corner a little hard). If there is chalk on the tread that hasn't worn off, you need less air.
Give it a try. Without a pyrometer to set exact inflation under current climate/use conditions, it's the next best thing.
I assume that up until this point you have followed the manufacturer's recommendation on inflation.
Good luck,
-Brian S.
PS Once you get the inflation right, using an accurate tire gauge, note the inflation for each tire. Remember ambient temperature will affect readings, as well.
6000 mi. Now, on my new car, I've had 2 tires
replaced at once and then recently another one.
So, 1 tire has 24,000 mi on it, 2 others have
14,000 on them, and one has only 3,000 mi on it.
it has now been 6,000 since the last rotation. Do
I skip this rotation? Or rotate only two of the
tires (the oldest one + 1 of the 2 middle ages
ones)? Keep the oldest one on the front wheels
(its a fwd Monte Carlo)?
What can anyone recommend?
The BF Goodrich All-Terrain T/A has been one of the most successful all-terrain tires of all time. Last year they came out with the new generation, designated the All-Terrain T/A KO. The old style is now obsolete, so if you find them somewhere, don't buy them. If you were to destroy one, you won't find a replacement.
The AT T/As have a reputation of being an outstanding tire, bolstered mainly by word of mouth. This is in contrast to Goodyear's reputation of being a well-known tire, based on prolific advertising and blimps. It seemed as though every time a customer asks me about the AT T/As (which my store has never kept in stock), their reason for wanting them was "my buddy runs 'em and he swears by 'em." The old ones had a reputation for being outstanding off-road tires, though sometimes noisy and not the longest lasting tires. The new KOs tackle these complaints head-on.
The most obvious difference between the old AT T/As and the new KOs is that on the KOs the tread extends up the sidewall (a la Mickey Thompson), giving it a radical, sporty look which demands your attention. It improves traction in deep mud and snow, as well.
BFG has made some changes to the compound and tread blocks to prolong tread life, reduce noise, increase traction... basically, they took a great tire and made it better.
The key feature of both the old AT T/A and the new KO is the Tri-Guard sidewall. To help understand the advantage of this, I'll give a little background:
This is a bit off the subject, so if you're easily bored by technical tirespeak, skip to the smiley face.
Most broadline tires from P225/75R15 to LT265/75R16 (and up) are composed of two nylon plies, wrapping from bead to bead, capped by two steel belts in the tread. Thus they are considered a 6-ply tire (2 sidewall + 4 tread). Even most tires branded with the "10-ply rating," load range E, employ this 2+4 construction. There are a few exceptions; every Michelin truck tire in the D (8-ply) and E ranges contains an additional steel belt, making it an actual 7-ply tire (2 sidewall + 5 tread). The Goodyear Unisteel and Michelin XPS tires actually use a full steel casing. And thus I shall expose one of the perversions of the tire industry:
Take for example tire size LT245/75R16 LRE. The Michelin XPS, with a full steel casing (plus three steel belts in the tread) is the brick s---house of tires. The General 550AS in this size, also load range E, utilizes the aforementioned 2 nylon, bead to bead, plus the standard 2 steel belts, though it bears the same "10-ply rating/load range E" inscription as the Michelin XPS. The cheaper tire companies don't bother going the distance to provide you with a better product. The capacity of the flimsy 6-ply construction somehow allows them to meet the bare minimum for an E tire. The customer sees a tire for $79.99, branded with an E, and he can't understand why he should pay $120 for Michelin's seemingly equal product. Little does he know the Michelin far exceeds the standard, without exclaiming it.
Looking at the cross-sections of these tires, it's an I-beam compared to a 2x4. But when you shop, you are led to believe all load range E "10-ply rating" tires are created equal. The cheap tire manufacturers are marketing a 6-ply tire with a "10-ply rating," while Michelin adds the 7th ply to both the D and E load ranges. The result: a load range D Michelin is actually beefier than a load range E General. But why does Michelin do things like this? Why do they put so much effort into innovations the majority of their customers won't even know exist? Perhaps they don't want the ignorant consumer to purchase their product--the kind of person who drives around with a 5 degree toe-in, then blames Michelin for the "defective" tires which wore only on the outside. Some people have complained to me that they won't buy Michelins because of some problem they had in the past, upon which the company "refused to make good." Ninety percent of the "defects" customers present before me are a direct result of their own neglect. If I made a near-perfect product, I guess I'd be a bit defensive as well.
:-)
Now, what was I saying? Oh, the Tri-Guard sidewall employs a third nylon ply, also bead to bead, which makes it an actual 8-ply tire (3 side + 5 tread). This substantially increases puncture resistance while getting personal with jagged rocks along the trail. It also makes them more stable, increasing on-highway handling.
Regarding appearance--these tires made me wish I still had my CJ5. When the first set came in, we just stood staring with longing eyes, drooling, running our fingers over the down-to-business tread blocks. A week later at least one of us had a set on his truck. Scott LOVES them. On his K1500 they look like lion's paws digging into the turf, ready to pounce in an explosion of forward fury. They catch the eye of even the regular joes who come in looking for 185/75R14s. Once we stacked four 33x12.50R16.5s (standing shoulder-high) near the doorway. Very few guys could walk past without dragging their hands across the jagged shoulder of the tread. They make you want to trade your minivan for a Humvee.
THOUGH... If you're looking for the best, I don't know if this is what you want for your truck. Unless you go off-road very frequently, this is not the best all-terrain tire (which includes not only off-highway driving, but the paved stuff too). The Michelin LTX A/T is the best aggressive all-terrain tire for 4x's which spend less than 10% of their time off-road. I hate to sound redundant, but it's a fact, guys.
In this case, it's a no-brainer. Michelin owns BF Goodrich. The tires which bear the Michelin name are the real deal, no sacrifice, best of the best. The BF Goodrich line is aimed at a more price-conscious market. They provide the highest possible quality at a competitive price. That's not to say the upper-end BFGs are not outstanding tires (Comp TA and All-Terrain TA KO are at the pinnacle of their class). I'm just saying if Michelin America were General Motors, BF Goodrich would be Pontiac, and Michelin would be Cadillac.
Sam's club used to be the best place to buy the KOs. This is no longer true, as we have been banned by Michelin America from selling the KOs. Sam Walton's theory was to "buy it low, stack it high, sell it cheap." Get them in the most unimaginable quantities, at a(n almost shady) low price, then sell them so cheap people question whether they're the real thing. Michelin America had set a minimum price for the tires, but I guess some clubs violated that, and started selling the tires cheaper than M.A.'s wholesale price to the independent dealers. This caused some discontent, and you can no longer buy a 31x10.50R15 T/A KO at Sam's for under $80. Last summer, the day we saw them in our special order catalog, we pushed them like crazy, even outselling some of the tires we keep in stock. But that's over.
But don't fret. As I said, if I still had my old CJ--which actually did her time in the rough, stomping ecosystems--I'd buy the KOs. NVH wasn't an issue; if I had purchased quiet tires, over the flapping of the vinyl roof and the roar of the glasspacks, I wouldn't have noticed. However, if I had a brand new Silverado, I'd buy the Michelins.
You can still buy the KO tires relatively cheap at Sears, but their installation package is an absolute rip-off: $20 for the exact same deal (lifetime balancing and rotation, new stems, lifetime road hazard insurance, disposal) we sell for $7.50/tire.
One other warning: BF Goodrich makes a cheap tire called the Long Trail T/A. This is not the All-Terrain T/A. It's not even close. They're great for the price ($59 for a 225/75R15), but, they're making serious compromises to achieve that price. Do not confuse them! Like I said, the "KO" is important.
--Chris
The manufacturer has worked out a suggested tire pressure. But they have no idea what kind of driving you do, or how much you load up the vehicle. There is a near fool-proof method the layman can use to determine his proper tire pressure, though it takes a little time.
For the best accuracy, you'll need some instrument capable of measuring tread depth in 1/32" increments. You can usually buy these at Pep Boys or Sears Hardware for less than $4. As the pressure is increased closer to the max, the weight carrying capacity of the tire increases. If the pressure is insufficient for the load on the tire, the wear will be concentrated on the shoulders. If the pressure is too high for the load, the wear will be concentrated in the center of the tread. Once a month, use your depth gauge to take three measurements across the tread: one inch from the right edge, the center, one inch from the left edge. Adjust the pressure accordingly, in 1-2psi steps above the recommendation. When you reach a medium, note the pressure and use the same gauge every time. If you had a pyrometer, you would perform the same test immediately after driving. Rather than checking for uneven wear, you'd check for uneven heat. The sections getting the most wear consequently run at a higher temperature.
If you take corners like a sane person, yet notice a difference of more than 2/32 between the left and right shoulder measurements, your alignment is probably out.
I drive a new Jetta with recommended pressures around 29 or something. I carry a 100# tool box (and whatever other stuff) in the trunk, and I exit ramps hard enough to make my books in the back seat slide from door to door. To offset the excessive front tire shoulder wear which is a result of my aggressive driving, I keep the front tires at 38. To adequately support the load in the rear, 36 has met the mark. All four of my tires are currently down to 4/32 completely across the tread. This works to prolong the tread life, but it makes for a harsh ride. You'll usually get the most comfortable ride at the recommended pressure. You'll almost always benefit from longer life and better handling by raising that pressure by 3-5psi. Just be sure not to exceed the max pressure. My MXV4s have a max pressure of 44psi, so I have room to play.
To all you truck people with LT tires, they range from a max pressure of 50psi (LRC) to 80psi (LRE). So you REALLY have room to play. If the truck is driven empty most of the time, no matter what the payload, there is no need to have the rear tires above 60psi (most F250s call for 55/80).
One final note: If you take your truck off road--I mean seriously off road--you can air the tires down as low as 15psi to make the tread roll over the terrain like a tank tread. Just make sure you pump them back up before driving home. This is why the Humvee has an on-board compressor.
There is nothing wrong with not rotating your tires and replacing them in pairs. It makes more sense, however to make them wear equally so you can always have a matched set of four (for more predictable handling). Rotating the tires will increase their life--no duh. I mean, if you replace them in pairs, you'll be close to buying three pairs of tires for the one set of four, otherwise. Giving the tires a break on the rear allows the tread to level its wear and start fresh when called back to battle on the front.
The ride will not be significantly affected if you have wore-out tires on one end and new tires on the other, as long as they are paired up with equal partners. Having a new tire paired up with the old will screw up the whole science. Usually the car will pull to the side of the wore out tire due to its diminished radius. No big deal if you can deal with it. The wet traction will also be decreased on the tire with less tread depth; when you go through a deep puddle, it might pull hard enough to cause you to lose control as the water struggles to egress the shallow tread. You won't want to rotate the tires on this side until the front has degraded in depth beyond the rear. Rotate the side without the new tire independent of the other side.
What you really should do is match up your 3K mi tire with a new one before it starts to wear. Use the other tire for a full-size spare (which I don't believe you have).
-Chris
While I understand that they were trying to control oversteer and having the back end slide out from under you, at some point you need to rotate the tires. Then, the new ones will be in front and the alleged benefits are negated.
Right?
Thoughts?
Cheers,
TB
Ryan
These pressures seem (non-objective feeling - anyway) to produce the best compromise of traction and performance. I'll now go out and buy a good tread gauge and try it your way.
I will be driving my 2WD Yukon on the highway with no off roading scheduled. I am not a member of Sam's Club but I am a member of Costco. When I was there last weekend they had Michelin LTX M/S tires in a P265/75SR16 size for $105 each plus about $10 in mounting fees and taxes, etc. I was wondering if these can fit my stock rims. What does the SR mean instead of the R? According to some other people who provided a tire change calculator, putting this new size tire on the Yukon will result in the speedometer reading less than actual speed and the odometer reading more than actual mileage. I have been told the dealer can recalibrate the speedometer and odometer for about $35.
It's a B.S. liability issue. NTB actually suggests that front-wheel-driving customers who purchase only two snow tires install them on the rear of the vehicle for the same reason: to control braking. They won't even sell the Blizzak in a quantity less than four. Anyone who's ever driven a motorcycle knows that no less than 70% of the braking is done by the front brakes. So who can explain to me how a vehicle which drives with the front, steers with the front, and brakes with the front will benefit by having two low traction tires on the front and two snow tires on the rear?
You're absolutely right. If one were to follow NTB's recommendations of keeping the good tires on the rear, you could never rotate your tires, since this would involve placing the good tires on the front. In the meantime, you burn up the fronts, go buy two more, they move the old ones to the front and sell you two more for the rear.
So you drive around wasting the traction of the new tires as you cover their butts. Any accident you have will be the fault of the old tires being on the more important axle. If you were to blame them, their defense would be that they suggested you buy four tires, but you errantly chose to mismatch tires with your old pair.
Make sense? Not if you have any. It's no secret that NTB hates people on a budget who buy only two tires. They try to cater to consumers who are fanatical about their cars and are not only shopping for four new tires, but four new chrome rims. They don't want to deal with people who drive minivans and just want to get their family safely to Disneyworld.
Though NTB's legally-induced fear is rooted in the chance of their causing the possibile fishtail, it really has nothing to do with oversteer. Oversteer (imminent in rear wheel drive vehicles) is caused by the tires pushing the vehicle through the turns. In front wheel drives, where the tires are pulling the vehicle, understeer is more common. Tire pressure is, as in many other aspects of driving, a factor in controlling this. By raising the pressure in the front/reducing the rear, oversteer will be increased. And vice-versa.
Let me conclude by saying that with front wheel drive, you are much, much safer with the good tires on the front, where the steering, braking, and driving takes place. This spin-out thing they speak of could happen to anyone who exceeds the capability of his or her driving skills or the vehicle's potential. But NTB has detected an Achilles' heel in their legal defense, and they'd rather protect themselves than you.
I understand that it oversteer is most common in a RWD vehicle. I do believe, (NTB not withstanding) that it is possible to put a FWD car into an oversteer condition. Or at least a condition where the back end is no longer following the drive wheels. (In my youth I'd been in such a condition in an '88 Corsica. Best friend driving my rental car, he was accustomed to a 77 Cougar. He tried to induce some oversteer with the throttle, in the front driver, as you are probably aware, this made the understeer worse, so he gets on the brake hard. Yeah, now we have so much 'oversteer' the back is now the front and vice-versa. No blood, no foul, and a confirmed pledge to not purchase any known rental cars in the future
I think you could say that either is caused by the differences in traction experienced by the different wheels. I don't think it really matters which wheels are the drive wheel, but rather oversteer, understeer is the vehicles response to the traction at each corner or the vehicle.
Anyway, I'm a computer geek, so usually I'm just interested in on or off.
Cheers,
TB
When you accelerate into a turn, you will usually experience the conditions I described above. This is the not quite on, not quite off, edge of the envelope, which I too often find myself situated in.
Please forgive the heavy metaphors.
---Chris
I think as a side note, we've proven that there is probably just as much 'jargon' in the automotive biz as you find in the computer biz. However, how are you all doing on acronyms. Other than the military, I think it would be tough to top the number of acronyms in the computer arena.
Cheers,
TB
(Sitting in Silicon Valley tonight, too far from my home and family. That is why I have way too much time on my hands tonight.)
I need some advice as to how much pressure should the air in the front and rear tires of my VW passat V6 be ?
Thanks
Manish
FWIW, I have been happy with the recommended pressures for the (3) VW I have owned.
Bruce
I feel this is related to tires and expect new wheels and tires to be part of the final solution.
Thanks,
TB
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/engaged/edmund.cgi?t=1339&c=Maintenance&w=O&x=L
3 of the tires were at 34 psi and the wear was even across the tread, one tire only had 31 psi in it and it was worn a little more on the outside than the inside so I added 3 psi. Will check again in a month.
Thanks again!!
Four months ago, I purchased a brand new 2000 Chevy Impala LS. The car came with the stock Goodyear Eagle GA "Touring" 225/60R 16 rubber. The tires, so far, have performed well. (I have 4,500 miles on the clock).
I know that you dislike "Goodyear" tires and I would like to get your opinion on the tires that came with my new Impala. Also any suggestions regarding substitutes for these tires that can help improve the already good handling and ride patterns of the car.
Someone on the "Impala V" topic under the "Sedans" forum claims to have been told by another "Tire Expert" that the Goodyear GA's on the Impala have a problem with a very "weak" sidewall construction that tends to flex too much (Under the front end weight), causing "creaking" noises in the front suspension. Is this an accurate comment??
Your comments and suggestion are very well appreciated.
TEO
I live in a very hot and humid climate (Miami, Florida).
The car has the 5-spoke "Blade" machined finished rims. The same Chevy rims the 94-96 Impala SS had as stock.
MattChalmers: Your Catera most likely takes MC weights. Sometimes the fit isn't quite as precise as it should be, and you will see a slight gap between the rim and the weight. If the weights are factory, they're most likely the right ones. Just check and make sure none of them are working their way off.
Tony: putting a set of 215/60R16s would improve the handling a bit.
ejy: They might have put the tires in teh wrong place after the rotation. I suppose it could happen; they all look alike. Or it could be from differences in pressure. Any problem with alignment will cause the individual tire to have a difference of tread depth from side to side.
teo: I'm not a big fan of the Eagle GAs. They're expensive tires and I can see no benefit in the performance of these tires over BFG's priced 1/3 less. They tend to handle like a cheap tire, wear out like a performance tire, go out of round, offer poor traction... basically they're a cheap tire at a ridiculous price. But you already have them, so you should be able to tell how they handle. Was the comment on creaking an accurate comment? In a word: NO. Poorly constructed as the GAs are, their sidewalls aren't much more flimsy than any other cheap brand. And flimsy tires don't create a creak, they squeal. I would increase the pressure by at least 2 or 3 psi just to prolong the life--actually, belay that--if I had a car spec'd with GAs, I'd want to burn them up as soon as possible so I could install a set of Michelin Pilots.
Butch11: Get over it.
ashutoshsm: Just replace all four. Life's to precious to trust in generic tires. If you had 17-inchers, it would be a bit tough on the wallet, but with 175s, you can buy a good tire for $35. You can buy a REALLY good tire for $45 (Michelin X-Metric).
I am looking to replace my 205/55R16 Michelin MXV4's on my 1997 Acura CL. I am debating the Eagle HP's, no one seems to love Eagles here...why so? I found them for $80 a peice, do you think I should get them or pay more for Pirellis or Michelins. Thanks for your advice.
Kristina/co host Out Turn
Quick question for you--what size tires are on the Acura CL from that model year? Once you know, run on over to www.tirerack.com and you can find a selection a very good tires at the size you need.
Kristina/co host Our Turn
Michelins are the best of the best. There is no comparison. That's the straight up truth. The only logical question which should arise (as it has, in your case) is of the price. We've established Michelin is the best. Is it worth it for you to pay the money for the best; will you truly realize the caliber of these tires, or are you the type of person who can drive with a flat right rear tire and not know it until it blows? If it's only a question of $10/tire, there is no reason not to go with the Michelins--except for the mostly O.E. XW4 model (which is merely better than average).
I wouldn't even wait ten miles, let alone 10K, to ditch those Generals. If someone gave me a brand new set of Generals, I'd trade them for nothing more than a warm beer or perhaps a used (but still fresh) stick of Big Red.
Also, I've got two children under 4 to consider (together with the fact that it rains and rains here). Thanks again.
Just a little heads up for the rest of you: the overwhelming majority of domestic vehicles (and some imports) manufactured with alloy wheels in the 80s and 90s with alloy wheels require MC type weights. However, in a constant attempt to make simple things difficult in the automotive industry, they are seriously mixing it up.
97-present VW/Audi require the ENS type. Prior to that was the IAW type.
Most GM cars still take MCs, with the exception of the Catera and two former Geos.
Most Japanese cars (except for Subaru) still take the FNS type.
Ford and GM trucks of the new body styles now require TS type. Before that they all took MCs.
And Chrysler vehicles now have their own LHS (easy to remember) type. I'm not sure about the new Jeeps. They're probably still MCs.
And, as always, 99% of the steel wheels require the Plain Jane uncoated, thin wall steel wheel weights. The most common exception would be the new F-series trucks with steel wheels, which are supposed to use the same weights as the alloys.
Sorry, Matt.
--Chris
The only way to be sure you won't be given the wrong weights is to have the job done at the dealer or Sam's. If you have it done at Sam's, just be sure to remind the technician that your vehicle requires the IAW type. Suggestion: Rather than taking the condescending approach and informing him that your car requires IAWs (he probably already knows), simply inquire as to the stock status of these weights. If they're presently out of stock, come back later.
No, buying the right weights is not practical, since you won't have any idea which values will be required. You would have to buy a box of each .25oz increment from .25 to 2.75 to cover the range of possibilities.
Remember, if they use the wrong weights (especially AWs), your rims will likely be scarred forever.
-Colin
(long time since I've been in this topic.)
A friend in Mpls was having trouble with her steering-asked me to drive the car-pulling very hard to left-went to the tire store-was a Dunlop with a seperated ply. Tire store people said this puppy would blow asap.
If Dunlop is still doing this-you might want to avoid that brand. Once the value engineers-accountants-take over it is all down hill.
I guess you can say welcome to the realworld sad isnt it
Ryan