Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations

stever · August 2015

lol, you had a Voyager too? Ours was an '89, just three blown head gaskets on it, all covered by the 7/70 warranty.

We shopped the Matrix/Vibe hard a few times too.

Come to think of it, I managed to get a Ford Falcon stuck on a railroad track in my teens. Was able to jack it up and push it sideways enough to get unstuck.

Are you my long-lost twin or what?

abacomike · August 2015

stever said:

graphicguy said:
I'm gearing up with a letter writing campaign, starting at the top of Cadillac, and work my way through this with legal representation..
Hm, if I'm hiring a lawyer, one reason for doing so is to separate me from the problem a bit. Let the lawyer work out the details. Pay the lawyer to do the worrying, in other words. GM likely isn't going to respond to you in any meaningful way since you are represented by counsel, not that they've meaningly replied to you before now. I was under the impression that your lawyer had already sent GM a demand letter and was managing the arbitration business?

Then again, it's common to litigate/negotiate through the media and it's a lot easier to do that now on social media.

It all depends on the lawyer, Stever, and the agreement the lawyer and GG have. What I mean by that comment is that GG may only be using an attorney to provide legal thrust to his claim for a complete buy-back. If, on the other hand, he engaged an attorney to handle "everything" pertaining to his car, the dealerships, the service departments, Cadillac Customer Support, Cadillac Motor Division and/or GM itself, you would be correct in your assumption that GG should disengage from the entire process.

GG can clear this up with his feedback on this forum, but I am going to guess that GG is fully engaged in this process and is using an attorney to bring to Cadillac's and GM's attention that he means business because he has engaged an attorney. What he has engaged the attorney for and how he expects the attorney to represent him is between GG and his attorney.

When I engaged an attorney to represent me to the vehicle's manufacturer and get my car replaced expeditiously after I had exhausted myself and my patience with the manufacturer, I divorced myself from the entire process. I made no contact with the dealership, the service department or the manufacturer or any of its subdivisions. I let the attorney handle everything - the attorney would call me if he had received any information or news about the case. It cost me $1800 back in 2000-2001, but he got me what I wanted. I just couldn't handle the stress or the arguments with the dealership, the service manager or the manufacturer any longer.

I don't know if GG did what I did and is going to end up with a sizable legal bill or if he has just given the attorney certain responsibilities to handle the case the way I suggested above. Remember, legal representation comes at a very high cost unless you have a friend who is an attorney and is doing you a favor.

andres3 · August 2015

stever said:

graphicguy said:
I'm gearing up with a letter writing campaign, starting at the top of Cadillac, and work my way through this with legal representation..
Hm, if I'm hiring a lawyer, one reason for doing so is to separate me from the problem a bit. Let the lawyer work out the details. Pay the lawyer to do the worrying, in other words. GM likely isn't going to respond to you in any meaningful way since you are represented by counsel, not that they've meaningly replied to you before now. I was under the impression that your lawyer had already sent GM a demand letter and was managing the arbitration business?

Then again, it's common to litigate/negotiate through the media and it's a lot easier to do that now on social media.

I agree, with a lawyer involved, how long can GM /Cadillac drag this drama out? Isn't there something in the lemon law that limits the amount of time they can delay the claim?

abacomike · August 2015

I mentioned previously that I had noticed that Walmart prices on food and groceries had increased substantially over the past several months. I noticed that Publix, Winn Dixie, Western Beef and other supermarkets were much more competitive due to the pricing adjustments. I noticed milk and eggs were actually less expensive at other super markets as was cheese, pasta, pasta sauce, coffee, etc. So I said to myself, why travel out of my way to shop at Walmart when I can end up with the same total cost for groceries at a full-service supermarket. So, for the next month, I am going to shop in supermarkets and avoid Walmart to see if my average grocery bill for the month is higher, the same or lower than Walmart.

Should be an interesting experiment.

andres3 · August 2015

graphicguy said:
OK....I am officially LIVID!!!!!!!

Caddy dealer just called and said they could find nothing wrong with the CTS. First, it threw a code and they replaced the power steering unit and rack. DIdn't fix it. Then, the whole "no code-no fix" routine. Threw another code and they updated the software.

Stalling....no code-no fix. Yet, they looked at (not necessarily replaced) the fuel rails, injetors, ECU and probably some other stuff I'm forgetting. It happened but they don't know the cause, so they can't find anything wrong (according to them).

Then there's CUE issues. Funny, CUE works fine on the XTS loaner, but they say the one in my CTS works fine, too. How they can make that statement just befuddles the hell out of me.

This is the Reader's Digest version. You guys have heard all the details already, so I won't repeat them.

So, as it's coming up on the 30 day mark (just about 26 days in the shop) and all of a sudden they say they can't find anything wrong. Cadillac corporate has to be the culprit here. They tell the dealership to quit their diagnosis (or that they won't pay for any more) and give the car back before the buyback terms kick in (which already have given the stalling and power steering failures are safety related, so they only get one chance to fix them).

I'm going to the local sign shop and have a couple of those magnetic signs made up that says "LEMON" to plaster on the car.

I'm picking it up today. Cadillac/GM....if you read these boards at all, I'm telling everyone I meet, every car forum I can find, every public event I attend, what garbage you put out, and how poorly you treat your "premium brand" customers.

To be honest I'd expect nothing more, and nothing less from a company that required bailouts just a few years ago. Looks like your recent Corolla rental functions as a vehicle better than your pricey Cadillac. I'm sure the Toyota has better steering

I often stated factually that given the amount of time some American cars spend in the shop, a Prius often would smoke them from 0 to 60 MPH because a car that can't run can't reach 60 MPH no matter how many seconds, hours, days you give it.

andres3 · August 2015

abacomike said:

graphicguy said:

OK....I am officially LIVID!!!!!!!

Caddy dealer just called and said they could find nothing wrong with the CTS. First, it threw a code and they replaced the power steering unit and rack. DIdn't fix it. Then, the whole "no code-no fix" routine. Threw another code and they updated the software.

Stalling....no code-no fix. Yet, they looked at (not necessarily replaced) the fuel rails, injetors, ECU and probably some other stuff I'm forgetting. It happened but they don't know the cause, so they can't find anything wrong (according to them).

Then there's CUE issues. Funny, CUE works fine on the XTS loaner, but they say the one in my CTS works fine, too. How they can make that statement just befuddles the hell out of me.

This is the Reader's Digest version. You guys have heard all the details already, so I won't repeat them.

So, as it's coming up on the 30 day mark (just about 26 days in the shop) and all of a sudden they say they can't find anything wrong. Cadillac corporate has to be the culprit here. They tell the dealership to quit their diagnosis (or that they won't pay for any more) and give the car back before the buyback terms kick in (which already have given the stalling and power steering failures are safety related, so they only get one chance to fix them).

I'm going to the local sign shop and have a couple of those magnetic signs made up that says "LEMON" to plaster on the car.

I'm picking it up today. Cadillac/GM....if you read these boards at all, I'm telling everyone I meet, every car forum I can find, every public event I attend, what garbage you put out, and how poorly you treat your "premium brand" customers.

I agree. I wouldn't think of purchasing a Cadillac after what you've been through GG. I wouldn't even rent one when I fly to Dallas. I've written them off my list. Awful company to do business with.

I would hate to think what I would do if my MB gave me trouble and the service dept said to me, "...no code, no problem!" When I had injector problems on my 2012 and no code was evident, they kept the car for 10 days until they tracked the problem to one or morr leaking injectors. So they replaced all the injectors and it never threw a code!!!

I also agree. I think any reasonable customer would prefer they replace all the parts in the car one by one, until all parts have been replaced, until the car is fixed. If they are unwilling to do that then they absolutely should provide the alternative, a replacement new vehicle or a full refund. This is seriously a breach of contract with the warranty of the vehicle, and also the implied warranty that a vehicle is intended to provide a functional use when purchased; meaning it can get you from A to B safely.

andres3 · August 2015

robr2 said:
I agree bwia. If we all refused to use products because of one person's experience, nobody would buy anything.

That's not really a fair statement. It's the "N" degree or severity of one person's experience that's the problem here. It's one thing to have a bad car, another to have a terrible one. Another yet to have a horribly terrible unsafe one, and then have the lemon buyback process treated even more despicably to make matters even worse.

There are degrees of unreliability, it's all relative, and when you go off the cliff on the bad side of the equation that is when you lose customers for life, and then need bail outs to stay in business.

andres3 · August 2015

bwia said:
@mike said: I agree. I wouldn't think of purchasing a Cadillac after what you've been through GG. I wouldn't even rent one when I fly to Dallas. I've written them off my list. Awful company to do business with.

Not so fast. This case is an outlier to the nth. degree. None of us here who own GM products have ever had such poor experiences with their dealership or product. The new GM bends over backwards to delight its customers. It's worth a try but I would write directly to CEO Mary Barra and to Cadillac chief Johan de Nysschen. They would be happy to hear directly from the aggrieved customer.

I don't believe your statement above to hold much truth. Many on these forums have communicated previous bad experiences with GM product and dealer/manufacturer services. One even has the name @anythingbutagm or AnythingbutGM.

I'm sure you'll say that was the "old" GM, but tell me, how many employees at GM started after 2009, that never worked there prior? Out of how many employees? What's that ratio? Unless that ratio is nearing 90%, I would say nothing has really changed.

dino001 · August 2015

abacomike said:
I mentioned previously that I had noticed that Walmart prices on food and groceries had increased substantially over the past several months. I noticed that Publix, Winn Dixie, Western Beef and other supermarkets were much more competitive due to the pricing adjustments. I noticed milk and eggs were actually less expensive at other super markets as was cheese, pasta, pasta sauce, coffee, etc. So I said to myself, why travel out of my way to shop at Walmart when I can end up with the same total cost for groceries at a full-service supermarket. So, for the next month, I am going to shop in supermarkets and avoid Walmart to see if my average grocery bill for the month is higher, the same or lower than Walmart.
Should be an interesting experiment.

I don't shop at Walmart anymore. It's not worth the aggravation at the registers - long slow lines. Every time I went there in the past (to save some money, usually when shopping for a specific item(s), when I knew some items were significantly cheaper than everywhere else), I regretted that decision by just looking at those indifferent faces of the cashiers, mess at the store. Those Walmart stores are usually nice within first couple of years from their opening/remodeling, but then they turn into inhospitable, dingy holes, where I get the creeps. Walmart may have smiley face in its commercials, but their stores were anything but smiley.

I would definitely go and try back, if the economics forced me to do it, but for now I have enough money to pay up at Publix, assuming that the prices are actually higher (which as you say they may not be).

andres3 · August 2015

imidazol97 said:

graphicguy said:

Imid...that's exactly what I did. They wanted to return the car to me after I signed their paperwork stating that the car was fixed. I refused. I told the service manager to go for a ride with me. Didn't get 50 yards out of their driveway before the Power Steering started acting up. I showed him how the power steering goes out and in. He saw it.
Good!
.........
I hope I don't get criticized by other posters again for standing up for GM in general (no puns intended) but I still think this is more a dealer problem than the overall GM (Cadillac) problem. If the store had been effective in their first fixes, Cadillac wouldn't be trying to figure out how to stall you on a buyback of a car the dealer _says_ they had in the service department and fixed or _says_ there is no problem.

Extrapolating, I wonder if this store(s) has been criticized for vehicles that had to be bought back before and the store(s) is trying not to admit there's a problem(s) that they can't find.

I'll have to criticize; sorry!

An alternative option is buying cars that don't need dealer service. So far my 2014 Audi is quickly approaching 30K miles has been that way. The '07 Civic we recently sold with near 80K miles never really needed to go to the dealer for anything important. The '15 VW we recently purchased hasn't seen the dealer since the day we drove it off the lot and is approaching 2,500 miles.

For balance, I will admit my inquiries as to why the back of the exhaust had a poor looking finish on all the TDI Golf Sportwagen's has been met with a stone wall of silence........

It's only on the TDI Golf Sportwagen models, but it was on at least 3 of them including ours. The Gasser's have a different muffler.

stever · August 2015

The Wallys here are pretty good and cleaner than the Albertsons. We get our meat at a specialty grocer.

But Wally is just the other big box stores, they kill off the little guys and raise the prices. I'll hit Home Depot or Lowes but we have a local lumberyard I try to shop with, and a nice True Value.

It's like buying a car - gotta shop around. Just a pita to drive three different places to save .50 cents on milk.

ab348 · August 2015

andres3 said:

To be honest I'd expect nothing more, and nothing less from a company that required bailouts just a few years ago. Looks like your recent Corolla rental functions as a vehicle better than your pricey Cadillac. I'm sure the Toyota has better steering

I often stated factually that given the amount of time some American cars spend in the shop, a Prius often would smoke them from 0 to 60 MPH because a car that can't run can't reach 60 MPH no matter how many seconds, hours, days you give it.

I'm sorry, but this is garbage, trolling of the first order. Bad on me for feeding the troll but it needed to be said.

fezo · August 2015

I do think, based on my past experience, is that once you've got a lawyer involved GM will just refer things to their attorneys. If they say anything directly to you it will be, "we're sorry, but you put a lawyer on the case and ca only deal through the legal department now."

oldfarmer50 · August 2015

No code, no problem...

That got me thinking about my old Lincoln. Ever since I've owned it the check engine light would come on about once a week for about 20 seconds and then go off. No code showed up so the mechanic was at a loss. Never really concerned me because the car is so old old it will pass inspection with the dash lit up like Christmas.

Today it was in for something else and some enterprising mechanic traced it down to an intermittent cam positioning sensor failure.

I wonder if GG's problem will end up being something similar.

imidazol97 · August 2015

ab348 said:
I'm sorry, but this is garbage, trolling of the first order. Bad on me for feeding the troll but it needed to be said.

Amen. I usually skip the posts.

imidazol97 · August 2015

I read there's a tropical storm/potential hurricane that may hit Florida. Good luck to everyone,
hope your weather is just rain. It's been several years since a hurricane has hit according to the
business channel that was on earlier.

abacomike · August 2015

imidazol97 said:

I read there's a tropical storm/potential hurricane that may hit Florida. Good luck to everyone, hope your weather is just rain. It's been several years since a hurricane has hit according to the business channel that was on earlier.

The last hurricane to hit us was Wilma. I remember it like it was yesterday. The Nayional Hurricane Center in Miami forecasted Wilma would cross the peninsula from Naples and exit in Ft. Lauderdale as a category 1 hurricane. Well, as it crossed the southern part of Florida, it has strengthened into a category 3 hurricane. Trees downed, roofs blown off, 12 inches of rain and we lived without electricity for 4 days. Couldn't buy gasoline because without power, the pumps couldn't deliver the fuel.

I remember taking waste paper baskets down to the pool and filling them up with water so we could flush the toilets. It was an awful experience.

Erika is supposed to either hit us or come very close off our coast as a category 1 hurricane. If we get hit directly, I will drive up to my brother's house for a few days near Jacksonville. No way do I want to go through anything like that again.

driver100 · August 2015

robr2 said:
That is true. Modern engines - at least since the mid 90's - have been able to deal with ethanol in gasoline.

The big push for ethanol was as a replacement for MTBE that was used as an oxygenate in many states. MTBE was found to contaminated groundwater. Ethanol was the only viable alternative.

The issue is that ethanol does not have the same ability to absorb moisture as well as MTBE could. If an ethanol blended gasoline isn't used with 90-120 days, the moisture can start to affect some components. Thus adding a fuel additive to absorb the moisture in seldom used vehicles or power equipment is key.

Thanks for the info about ethanol to everyone who added something....I found it all very interesting.

This info was especially important to me as it makes it really necessary to add STABIL to the Passat when it sits in Florida for 6 or 7 months.

driver100 · August 2015

GG, I think the guys are right, if your lawyer is handling it GM won't be interested in replying to you. The dealer can't do anything else at this time. Even if they made an offer it would be just to get rid of you and won't satisfy you.

Last time I mention it but I think there are 4 avenues left for you;
*Lemon Law people
*National Safety
*Insurance Bureau
*As much publicity as you can find.

Never give up!

driver100 · August 2015

stever said:

suydam said:
A tall potted palm would fit fine in many of the vehicles you've been looking at. I've decided it's a mistake to buy a car based on the once in awhile need vs. what you really do all the time.... Reminded me of our old Toyota Previa van which was also a box.
Dang, you had one of my wish list cars. Wish I could have afforded a Previa back in the day. Will really have to get beyond my dealer experience and revisit your Encore.

Got my "review" up of the CX-3. Please PM me if you see any egregious typos or errors.

Nice review, didn't notice any typos or errors.

Just a guess but I think you are going to be looking for something else.

stever · August 2015

@berri really has me thinking. Keep the van and get a used Miata. My wife is liking the Encore though.

andres3 · August 2015

abacomike said:

graphicguy said:

Try to answer all questions at the same time.

-This was the 4th trip to two dealers for the power steering issue. Once they said that the power steering going out was normal (this after a light on the dash said the power steering faulted and take it in for service). Once they said they said "no code, no problem". Third time a fault code was thrown and the fix was to replace the power steering unit and some other bits. 4th time they said no code, so no problem. This time they said they found a code and it said to update some software as fix. I consider this a safety item, so there if they can't fix it the first time, lemon law goes into effect. GM doesn't consider it a safety item.

-Stalling...1st time they said no code, no problem. 2nd time (different dealer) said no code, no problem. Third time (now) they apparently found something and they were able to duplicate. At first they said "bad gas". Now, they say they're looking at injectors, fuel rails, ECM, and probably some other things I'm forgetting. I cosider this a safety item, too. Not sure about what Cadillac thinks.

-CUE...all of a sudden won't recognize voice commands, This is recent. It can't read my iPhone, even though it did before. GPS isn't even remotely close when tracking the car. Dealer says it's working as designed.

12 days in the shop the first time. 13 days this time (with no end in sight).

If the dealer is keeping it in order to have clear cut lemon law backing, I appreciate their efforts. Don't see them doing that, given I didn't even buy the car from their dealership. More likely, they have experienced some of what I experienced and are tearing into it given my complaints to Cadillac. I surmise Cadillac is paying them for the loaner and the repair costs. I don't know this as fact.

And no, I don't want a replacement.....this is the last Cadillac that will ever grace my garage.

The Cadillac Customer Service reps who reached out to me here at Edmunds were worthless. They didn't escalate my issues. They did little more than to say..."sorry, we've done all we can do"...which was nothing.

BBB said I should work through the dealer to resolve my issues (what the hell do they think I've been doing). They've stalled BBB, the lawyer and me. In short, they couldn't care less.

Yes I'll continue fighting them, and do it vocally, whenever I can, here and elsewhere, until they buy the car back.

Unless you guys don't want to hear any more about it, then I'll cease.

No, GG. Keep posting. It's the most excitement I've had in a long time. Much like a serial on old TV or in the movies.

I think you are correct in your assumption that Cadillac Division said to the dealer - FIX THE DARN THING AND GET THIS CUSTOMER OUT OF OUR HAIR! So they are probably tearing the car apart to find the cause(s) of the malfunctions. I also agree that most, if not all, of the malfunctions are safety issues. Stalling, loss of power steering and Cue issues.

As for not wanting a new car and insisting on Cadillac refunding your purchase price, they will first deduct for mileage on the car (which is what they did on my 2000 Bonneville) and GM did not refund the taxes I paid either. They just refunded the purchase price less 15 cents a mile. They did not refund my dealer fees either.

It may vary State by State, GG.

I think GM screwed it hard to you, back in your 2000 Bonneville owning days. It doesn't matter what State you are in, GM should have refunded your taxes and any other dealer fees. Only a company headed for bankruptcy with a collision course would not be willing to do that when the product sold doesn't meet any reasonable expectations.

andres3 · August 2015

driver100 said:
When I took the car in for the 12k mile service I said the steering wheel clunks a bit when I start the car and the steering wheel comes down into position....just check see if it needs oil or something.

They reported that it was working exactly as it should and it is a ratchet thing. I said I was sorry to make them check out something that was working properly. The service manager said no problem at all, we are happy to make sure it runs perfectly.

My sales consultant answers all emails immediately, and is always willing to demonstrate or set up anything I need for the car. Has said he would come to the house to set up homelink and things like that.

Hope these aren't famous last words but the people who work at MB believe they make the best cars possible - they actually say that, and I get the impression, they will do what they can to keep me a satisfied customer. I could be wrong if there is ever a big problem, but, so far they make me feel I would only shop for another vehicle if there was some other car way more superior to another MB - and I doubt that will happen.

It is so simple and yet so smart, satisfy the customer completely, so that they have no reason to go to another brand.

I agree with you, the very best companies have a culture about them at dealerships, sales areas, and service bays that differs entirely from what I've seen and heard of the Big 3. It's a 180 experience; night and day. In my case it is comparing Dodge to Honda. Dodge to Audi. Honda and Audi acted amazingly similarly. It is about pride, customer service, and expectations.

Ford didn't care that my cousins truck engine blew between mile 36,001 and 40,000 miles. Land Rover didn't care that my brother's GF's transmission blew within 2,000 miles of the 50K warranty.

andres3 · August 2015

ab348 said:

andres3 said:

To be honest I'd expect nothing more, and nothing less from a company that required bailouts just a few years ago. Looks like your recent Corolla rental functions as a vehicle better than your pricey Caddilac. I'm sure the Toyota has better steering

I often stated factually that given the amount of time some American cars spend in the shop, a Prius often would smoke them from 0 to 60 MPH because a car that can't run can't reach 60 MPH no matter how many seconds, hours, days you give it.

I'm sorry, but this is garbage, trolling of the first order. Bad on me for feeding the troll but it needed to be said.

I'm sorry, but the term garbage should be reserved for:

1. Every engineer that had anything to do with the design of GG's Cadillac.
2. Every Automotive manager that had anything to do with GG's Cadillac.
3. Every assembly person or robot technician that had anything to do with GG's Caddillac's being put together.
4. Every politician that bailed out the company that employs such garbage (see above) against the vast majority of voter's wishes.
5. Every dealership(s) representative(s) that have stalled and delayed and created all these problems for GG's problematic lemon Cadillac.

If I was put in charge of Cadillac real amounts of heads would roll out the door, fired, and I'd hire qualified people that don't have a history of being failures.

qbrozen · August 2015

andres3 said:

I agree bwia. If we all refused to use products because of one person's experience, nobody would buy anything.
That's not really a fair statement. It's the "N" degree or severity of one person's experience that's the problem here. It's one thing to have a bad car, another to have a terrible one. Another yet to have a horribly terrible unsafe one, and then have the lemon buyback process treated even more despicably to make matters even worse. There are degrees of unreliability, it's all relative, and when you go off the cliff on the bad side of the equation that is when you lose customers for life, and then need bail outs to stay in business.

You can find a story like GG's about every manufacturer. I believe it was Brentwood who had something like this with a Lexus, and he even made a website dedicated to it.

robr2 · August 2015

fezo said:
Ethanol is a classic boondoggle. We subsidize the growers and then put heavy tariffs on imported ethanol from places like Brazil that make it out of sugar plants which if you're going to do it is the way to go.
.We have to lost Big Ag. Money grabbing beasts that only self-perpetuate.

Actually stevo - the tariff on imported ethanol and the subsidy to the US industry ended in 2012.

robr2 · August 2015

andres3 said:

robr2 said:
I agree bwia. If we all refused to use products because of one person's experience, nobody would buy anything.
That's not really a fair statement. It's the "N" degree or severity of one person's experience that's the problem here. It's one thing to have a bad car, another to have a terrible one. Another yet to have a horribly terrible unsafe one, and then have the lemon buyback process treated even more despicably to make matters even worse.

There are degrees of unreliability, it's all relative, and when you go off the cliff on the bad side of the equation that is when you lose customers for life, and then need bail outs to stay in business.

Oh I think it's quite a fair statement. Remember, we are talking about a sample size of 1 car and all we have is 1 side of the story. I don't believe that gg is embellishing his story. But we have not heard from the dealer or Cadillac itself.

robr2 · August 2015

andres3 said:

driver100 said:
When I took the car in for the 12k mile service I said the steering wheel clunks a bit when I start the car and the steering wheel comes down into position....just check see if it needs oil or something.

They reported that it was working exactly as it should and it is a ratchet thing. I said I was sorry to make them check out something that was working properly. The service manager said no problem at all, we are happy to make sure it runs perfectly.

My sales consultant answers all emails immediately, and is always willing to demonstrate or set up anything I need for the car. Has said he would come to the house to set up homelink and things like that.

Hope these aren't famous last words but the people who work at MB believe they make the best cars possible - they actually say that, and I get the impression, they will do what they can to keep me a satisfied customer. I could be wrong if there is ever a big problem, but, so far they make me feel I would only shop for another vehicle if there was some other car way more superior to another MB - and I doubt that will happen.

It is so simple and yet so smart, satisfy the customer completely, so that they have no reason to go to another brand.

I agree with you, the very best companies have a culture about them at dealerships, sales areas, and service bays that differs entirely from what I've seen and heard of the Big 3. It's a 180 experience; night and day. In my case it is comparing Dodge to Honda. Dodge to Audi. Honda and Audi acted amazingly similarly. It is about pride, customer service, and expectations.

Ford didn't care that my cousins truck engine blew between mile 36,001 and 40,000 miles. Land Rover didn't care that my brother's GF's transmission blew within 2,000 miles of the 50K warranty.

Again, a sample group of 1. I have an Explorer and have found the dealer experience to be better than the local Honda dealer. So I guess I cancel out your cousin.

fezo · August 2015

Well, that's decent. Makes me wonder why ethanol is still here. It's not efficient to produce it here. It's way cheaper to buy Brazilian ethanol than trying to use corn which involves more expensive process for a product that's at least equal to and perhaps better than corn ethanol.

Let's just go back to gasoline. More efficient.

robr2 · August 2015

You would think that but the US exported about 800 million barrels of ethanol worldwide in 2014 with 50 million of those gallons sent to - wait for it - Brazil. The US imported about 54 billion gallons from Brazil in the same time frame.

abacomike · August 2015

It would seem that Tropical Storm Erika is moving more west than north according to the weather reports which brings the storm right over us on Monday. But it is expected to remain a Tropical Storm instead of strengthening into a category 1 hurricane.

60 mph winds are still ominous because trees can be easily overturned and power lines can be knocked down. Additionally, heavy rain can cause serious surface flooding because our topography is so flat.

Hopefully, we will end up dodging a bullet this time. Remember, hurricane season runs through October which is when Wilma hit us 10 years ago - so we still have a solid 10 weeks more of hurricane potential.

I've lived in California during 2 big earthquakes and here in Florida through a category 3 hurricane. I'll take a 7.0 earthquake any day over another Wilma. With a quake, it's over in 1-2 minutes. With a hurricane, you live 5-6 days of anticipation and preparations, at least 1-2 full days of wind and torrential rains, and then 4-6 days of the aftermath with no power, roads blocked with downed trees and food shortages. After Wilma, thousands of homeowners had tarps on their roofs for months and months before insurance companies paid off and general roof contractors could repair the roofs.

driver100 · August 2015

robr2 said:

andres3 said:

robr2 said:
I agree bwia. If we all refused to use products because of one person's experience, nobody would buy anything.
That's not really a fair statement. It's the "N" degree or severity of one person's experience that's the problem here. It's one thing to have a bad car, another to have a terrible one. Another yet to have a horribly terrible unsafe one, and then have the lemon buyback process treated even more despicably to make matters even worse.

There are degrees of unreliability, it's all relative, and when you go off the cliff on the bad side of the equation that is when you lose customers for life, and then need bail outs to stay in business.
Oh I think it's quite a fair statement. Remember, we are talking about a sample size of 1 car and all we have is 1 side of the story. I don't believe that gg is embellishing his story. But we have not heard from the dealer or Cadillac itself.

I tend to agree - we have to know both sides of the story - but, I think I have heard enough to know no customer should be treated like GG has been treated. He is in buyer hell!

dino001 · August 2015

fezo said:
Well, that's decent. Makes me wonder why ethanol is still here.

One word - mandates.

driver100 · August 2015

robr2 said:
You would think that but the US exported about 800 million barrels of ethanol worldwide in 2014 with 50 million of those gallons sent to - wait for it - Brazil. The US imported about 54 billion gallons from Brazil in the same time frame.

Couldn't the US have imported 53.95 billion barrels and saved the shipping on 50 million barrels?

fezo · August 2015

Absolutely. This is spreading the same money around to the same people - and they need our assistance to do.

There was a program like this under Carter with gasohol which was the same thing. Eventually someone saw the lack of benefit and those operations died. Can't wait for this one to.

If you really want to producer how about using something that really grows everywhere you don't want it, has no know value and grows faster than you can cut it? Kudzu ethanol

mako1a · August 2015

I tend to agree - we have to know both sides of the story - but, I think I have heard enough to know no customer should be treated like GG has been treated. He is in buyer hell!

When I'm having a hard time figuring out a problem (like GGs Caddy) I go to what ifs and compare.
What if he had leased instead of bought? Would he be driving a loaner? Would the dealer actually fix the car or maybe send it back to Detroit with a note saying "Not your finest work, guys"
A stalling car (I'm convinced the PS unit is causing it to stall) is just plain UNSAFE and should be given to an exec to drive. Once he misses a few meetings or crashes, the car would be rendered undriveable.
Just thinking out loud.

mako1a · August 2015

3 years ago yesterday I bought the GT Mustang. It is now officially out of factory warranty. Just turned over 13k miles, has had 2 oil changes by my local NAPA mechanic, never been back to the dealer and runs like a top. The place where I get it inspected asks how many miles since last inspection (shakes his at 4k) and after a quick look at brakes, etc puts on a current sticker. I treated it to some premium fuel yesterday as I'll be driving to West Virginia next week for a pontoon boat tour with my best friend from grade school. Summersville Lake here we come.

oldfarmer50 · August 2015

mako1a said:
3 years ago yesterday I bought the GT Mustang. It is now officially out of factory warranty. Just turned over 13k miles, has had 2 oil changes by my local NAPA mechanic, never been back to the dealer and runs like a top. The place where I get it inspected asks how many miles since last inspection (shakes his at 4k) and after a quick look at brakes, etc puts on a current sticker. I treated it to some premium fuel yesterday as I'll be driving to West Virginia next week for a pontoon boat tour with my best friend from grade school. Summersville Lake here we come.

Still a beauty. I've never been a fan of white cars but the Mustang does look nice in that color. You drive like me, low annual miles and you don't even have the excuse of winter salt (or do you?). I had to wash mine again yesterday because it gets dusty in the garage. Now has about 600 miles. I'll drive it more when I start back to work next week.

And I notice you didn't put your thumb over your plate in that photo. Aren't you afraid that some axe murderer will look you up and come a chopping?

isellhondas · August 2015

I'm back!!!!

Tried "upgrading" to Windows 10 and it turned out to be a disaster! Lost all of my passpeords including this one so I was unable to get in. I still have no idea what it even is since it autofills! Win 10 may work for some people but not me!

graphicguy · August 2015

mako1a said:
3 years ago yesterday I bought the GT Mustang. It is now officially out of factory warranty. Just turned over 13k miles, has had 2 oil changes by my local NAPA mechanic, never been back to the dealer and runs like a top. The place where I get it inspected asks how many miles since last inspection (shakes his at 4k) and after a quick look at brakes, etc puts on a current sticker. I treated it to some premium fuel yesterday as I'll be driving to West Virginia next week for a pontoon boat tour with my best friend from grade school. Summersville Lake here we come.

Looks new and as pretty as ever. What a fun trip in a fun car. Be careful.

graphicguy · August 2015

isellhondas said:
I'm back!!!!

Tried "upgrading" to Windows 10 and it turned out to be a disaster! Lost all of my passpeords including this one so I was unable to get in. I still have no idea what it even is since it autofills! Win 10 may work for some people but not me!

And we're glad you are. Old adage applies..."don't try to fix what ain't broke".

graphicguy · August 2015

Thanks again everyone for your willing ears. It is greatly appreciated.

Talking to a bunch of people who have dealt with GM when it comes to buybacks, they are the worst. They seemingly do not want to admit to any sort of culpability, or any sort of admission of issues in their cars, especially when those are many and perhaps difficult to diagnose. As one person told me who had his Chevy Malibu bought back a few years ago..."they're experienced in the arbitration and lemon law cases. They know if they admit to not being able to fix your car, the consumer has the upper hand."

It took him a year and a half to finally get Chevy to buy his back (also steering issues).

So be it. I'll keep you guys posted every step of the way.

And, no...still don't have my car back. Still sitting at the dealers....3 weeks yesterday.

[Deleted User] · August 2015

mako1a said:
3 years ago yesterday I bought the GT Mustang. It is now officially out of factory warranty. Just turned over 13k miles, has had 2 oil changes by my local NAPA mechanic, never been back to the dealer and runs like a top. The place where I get it inspected asks how many miles since last inspection (shakes his at 4k) and after a quick look at brakes, etc puts on a current sticker. I treated it to some premium fuel yesterday as I'll be driving to West Virginia next week for a pontoon boat tour with my best friend from grade school. Summersville Lake here we come.

Looks great. And super low miles!

I've been in the DC area this week and have seen plenty of those Virginia plates (Maryland, too). On my way home now.

dino001 · August 2015

graphicguy said:
Thanks again everyone for your willing ears. It is greatly appreciated.

Talking to a bunch of people who have dealt with GM when it comes to buybacks, they are the worst. They seemingly do not want to admit to any sort of culpability, or any sort of admission of issues in their cars, especially when those are many and perhaps difficult to diagnose. As one person told me who had his Chevy Malibu bought back a few years ago..."they're experienced in the arbitration and lemon law cases. They know if they admit to not being able to fix your car, the consumer has the upper hand."

It took him a year and a half to finally get Chevy to buy his back (also steering issues).

So be it. I'll keep you guys posted every step of the way.

And, no...still don't have my car back. Still sitting at the dealers....3 weeks yesterday.

Looking at this, I maintain that the most efficient course for you may be to settle for a car rather than cash. You can sell it afterwards, trade for whatever you want. It may not be "right thing", but may simply save you time (which is also money). Even if you take a hit on the instant depreciation, it may still be better than long protracted process of negotiating buyout price that may or may not be successful. It may be easier for them to agree to that, too. Companies are funny, when it comes to cash. It's a completely different set of rules when it comes to handling loss (cash vs. barter).

Cutting your losses may not be pretty, but may save you further aggravation. Being principled may not pay when facing POS companies with no principles other than pushing problems away, especially if they have an upper hand against small guy (and they often do).

andres3 · August 2015

robr2 said:

andres3 said:

robr2 said:
I agree bwia. If we all refused to use products because of one person's experience, nobody would buy anything.
That's not really a fair statement. It's the "N" degree or severity of one person's experience that's the problem here. It's one thing to have a bad car, another to have a terrible one. Another yet to have a horribly terrible unsafe one, and then have the lemon buyback process treated even more despicably to make matters even worse.

There are degrees of unreliability, it's all relative, and when you go off the cliff on the bad side of the equation that is when you lose customers for life, and then need bail outs to stay in business.
Oh I think it's quite a fair statement. Remember, we are talking about a sample size of 1 car and all we have is 1 side of the story. I don't believe that gg is embellishing his story. But we have not heard from the dealer or Cadillac itself.

Actually we have heard from GM customer service right here on these Edmund's Forums/Boards. They demonstrated either a desire to keep stone walling GG's case, or a complete lack of authority to do anything to resolve the problems. Even with a buyback process started, the car should still need to be fixed, whether it is fixed for GG or for the next poor soul GM sells it to after buying it back. Either way the car must be fixed, so I'm not buying the excuses for GM online customer service being powerless to help; other than poor management and authority delegation on GM's part.

andres3 · August 2015

graphicguy said:
Thanks again everyone for your willing ears. It is greatly appreciated.

Talking to a bunch of people who have dealt with GM when it comes to buybacks, they are the worst. They seemingly do not want to admit to any sort of culpability, or any sort of admission of issues in their cars, especially when those are many and perhaps difficult to diagnose. As one person told me who had his Chevy Malibu bought back a few years ago..."they're experienced in the arbitration and lemon law cases. They know if they admit to not being able to fix your car, the consumer has the upper hand."

It took him a year and a half to finally get Chevy to buy his back (also steering issues).

So be it. I'll keep you guys posted every step of the way.

And, no...still don't have my car back. Still sitting at the dealers....3 weeks yesterday.

Of course they are "Experienced in the arbitration and lemon law cases!" I'd be willing to bet that the Big 3 have massive amounts of experience because they have an unusually high rate of producing lemons and vehicles that create arbitration cases. I have no evidence of this other than the high rate of fallen market share over the past few decades. Sometimes making cars that last 3 years or 36,000 miles before they fall apart comes back to bite you in the butt. You miss the target on the short end and you have high warranty claims.

My other evidence is that fact that they try and fight buyback claims with maximum delays, stalls, and stone walls, rather than try to salvage a customer for future business. That tells me they have so many of these types of vehicles, that they've calculated it's financially advantageous to them to lose customers rather than try and keep them. That tells me they don't believe in their product. This is excellent circumstantial evidence in my mind.

mako1a · August 2015

And I notice you didn't put your thumb over your plate in that photo. Aren't you afraid that some axe murderer will look you up and come a chopping?

Those plates are now hanging on my garage wall. I don't see the point of blocking something you display every time you drive. Besides that is an Amateur Radio (HAM Radio) call sign plate which is available to anyone with a license. QRZ.com gives all sorts of info including a map and directions to my antenna if you enter your license info which in turn gives out all of your info. I'm retired DOD and am used to having everything I do on display.

andres3 · August 2015

dino001 said:

graphicguy said:
Thanks again everyone for your willing ears. It is greatly appreciated.

Talking to a bunch of people who have dealt with GM when it comes to buybacks, they are the worst. They seemingly do not want to admit to any sort of culpability, or any sort of admission of issues in their cars, especially when those are many and perhaps difficult to diagnose. As one person told me who had his Chevy Malibu bought back a few years ago..."they're experienced in the arbitration and lemon law cases. They know if they admit to not being able to fix your car, the consumer has the upper hand."

It took him a year and a half to finally get Chevy to buy his back (also steering issues).

So be it. I'll keep you guys posted every step of the way.

And, no...still don't have my car back. Still sitting at the dealers....3 weeks yesterday.
Looking at this, I maintain that the most efficient course for you may be to settle for a car rather than cash. You can sell it afterwards, trade for whatever you want. It may not be "right thing", but may simply save you time (which is also money). Even if you take a hit on the instant depreciation, it may still be better than long protracted process of negotiating buyout price that may or may not be successful. It may be easier for them to agree to that, too. Companies are funny, when it comes to cash. It's a completely different set of rules when it comes to handling loss (cash vs. barter).

Cutting your losses may not be pretty, but may save you further aggravation. Being principled may not pay when facing POS companies with no principles other than pushing problems away, especially if they have an upper hand against small guy (and they often do).

On one hand what you say is true, but on the other I think the small guy standing up to the big guy pays unseen intangible dividends. It may provide a disincentive for GM to do this to others in the future. It's like speeding tickets, if no one ever fought them we'd get a lot more of them. If everyone fought them starting tomorrow the system would crash (less than 5% fight their tickets).

dino001 · August 2015

andres3 said:
On one hand what you say is true, but on the other I think the small guy standing up to the big guy pays unseen intangible dividends. It may provide a disincentive for GM to do this to others in the future.

You assume that entity like GM actually learns, which is is to contrary to your own evidence. Or let me correct - they do learn, but those lessons are similar to bankers after bailout - anything goes. And unfortunately, both (GM and bankers) are right. Fighting them "to death" is like entering a karate contest with a horse, or kickboxing with a kangaroo. Not much chance.

stever · August 2015

My guess is that after 15 million YouTube hits, United is still breaking guitars.

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