Lease Questions - Ask Here

anonymousposts · September 2004

if you "can" afford $430 but don't "want" to afford $430.

In my area according to carsdirect.com you can get the 2005 Passat for $400 over invoice. This would indicate to me you should not have a hard time getting a 2004 Passat for invoice - the $2500 dealer cash on this model which would give you a sale price of $20,788 which with 0.0% for 60 months would give you a payment of around $350 per month not including sales tax. Seems like that would be very close to what they are quoting you for a 3 1/2 year lease. With 0.0% I would think you would be right-side up in the car before 42 months, maybe even sooner.

poetpindar · September 2004

Offer from BMW of Riverside, California:

36 months; 15,000 miles per year; money factor .00235; residual factor 59%; selling price $35,115.00; bank fee $725; residual value $21,945.05; total depreciation $14,803.32; monthly depreciation $411.20; monthly rent $132.06; monthly payment $543.26; tax @ 7.75% = $42.10; total monthly payment $585.37.

License & Registration $278.00; Documentation fee $45.00;

No cash down.

Is this a good deal?? I worked my own figures out and came up with a total monthly payment of $540.00. Is this too good of a deal. Thanks for your help...

mk2 · September 2004

Hi Car Man,

Want to thank you again for your help! Just got my '05 Pacifica. MSRP: 37050. I was able to get $445 a month + $892 due at signing with the rebates and the mf that you suggested. How did I do?

-mk2

mister22 · September 2004

I was at an Infiniti dealership today and brought up the holdback to reassure them that they are making money. They responded by telling me that the holdback goes directly to the owner of the dealership and is never seen by any of the managers or employees of the dealership. Is this true or are they blowing smoke? Should holdback not be used in my favor in making a deal? Thanks so much.

sarabay · September 2004

I've been told that I cannot use the 0 percent financing plus get dealer cash--it's one or the other. I'm having a hard time even getting them to invoice on a purchase, never mind below in this area (SW coast of Fla)--I haven't gotten near $20,788. Invoice on the car I want is about $22,300 according to Edmunds, and no way anyone will sell $2,000 below. The lowest I've seen is $21,500 on Carsdirect.com, but I'd be a little nervous about using them.

rroyce10 · September 2004

...... **Which would be a better lease, the G35 or the 9-3 Aero?**

You'll spend more time driving and less time visiting "Mike the Mekanik" if you go with the "G" machine .........

Terry.

rroyce10 · September 2004

........ Here we go again ...

Holdback is not a profit center, not even close .. it's a source of money that is "held back" to "try" too offset some of the floorplan expense, or deferring some of the cost of floating all that inventory - and even that barely breaks daylight ... saying holdback is a profit center is like saying Social Security is profitable .... getting into the holdback is a quick way to get shown the door

Terry.

theaba · September 2004

I drive a 2003 Saab 9 3 and like it very much. It is really a joy to drive it. In most G35 vs. Saab reviews, G35 comes slightly ahead because of its more powerful engine. They both compare the same in road handling, etc. The Saab advantange, in my opinion, is the great lease deals that the company offer. If you decide to lease the car, make sure to take an advertised lease offer from Saab to the dealer, and make sure you get the same terms (only) adjusted to the differences in list prices.

kssod1 · September 2004

car_man,

Any thoughts on post 13364

thanks,
kssod

CarMan@Edmunds · September 2004

Thanks for the additional information, sarabay. Volkswagen is not providing much in the way of lease money factor support on the Passat at this time, so the money factor that you were quoted definitely looks good to me. In fact, it's low enough that I would not be surprised if your lease was being run through a bank other than Volkswagen Credit. Given the fact that there is not any lease support on this model right now, if you are interested in a 2004 Passat you probably will be able to use the dealer cash that is available on it to negotiate an even lower selling price than you already have. What model Passat are you getting, i.e. a 2004 VW Passat GLS 1.8T wagon, a 2005 Passat GL 1.8T sedan, etc...?

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CarMan@Edmunds · September 2004

Yes, Copper, I completely agree with your findings. Consumers only have to pay the taxes of the state that their vehicle will be registered in when they purchase a new car or truck. This rule was created so that consumers wouldn't flock to states that do not have any sales tax ,like Delaware, to purchase a new vehicle, but it actually benefits you in this instance. I'm glad to hear that you won't have to pay it.

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CarMan@Edmunds · September 2004

Hi jenny5. Generally speaking, consumers can usually negotiate better deals than the ones that are offered in manufacturers' advertised lease payments. If you are able to do so, this would help eliminate some of the down payment that was mentioned in the ad that you saw. Consumers are free to lease any vehicle that they want without making any sort of capitalized cost reduction. As you said, doing so will cause you to have a higher monthly payment, but when you think about it that is sort of what a down payment does anyhow. The expense of the down payment is just incurred at one time, rather than spread out over the length of the lease. Let's say that $2,500 of the amount that is due at lease signing for the $269 payment that you saw is a capitalized cost reduction and that it is a 36 month lease. When dividing the down payment by the number of payments that you have to make, your monthly cost for this car is actually around $339. If you like the low monthly payment that making a cap cost reduction on a lease provides you with, you can always keep that money in the bank and use it to pay part of your monthly lease payment.

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CarMan@Edmunds · September 2004

Hi dadyo. I always advise consumers against making down payments on leases. If you decide to lease your next vehicle, you should either sell your current vehicle on your own, which is often easier said than done with an expensive vehicle like the one that you have, or have the dealer that you get your leased vehicle from cut you a check for it rather than use the proceeds as a capitalized cost reduction for your lease when you trade it in.

This isn't the best time to lease an A4 Cabriolet (nice car by the way) because Audi really is not providing much in the way of lease support on it at this time. I suspect that its support on Cabrios will increase as the winter months approach and the model year progresses, but it is difficult to predict what automakers will do with their future incentives programs with 100% accuracy. I would be more than happy to give you an idea of what your monthly payment right now on convertible or convertibles that you are considering getting, but in order for me to do so, I need you to provide me with its full MSRP and selling price.

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dadyo · September 2004

Many thanks. Sticker on the car is $40,620 and they are painfully reluctant to offer much in the way of discounts (they will or they will not sell it to me). Other option is the BMW 3 series, but it seems a bit pricier. I am looking at a lease primarily based on the reality that I rarely keep a car more than 2 1/2-3 years. Thanks again.

CarMan@Edmunds · September 2004

Don't worry about it, talance. It happens all the time. OK, if you were to lease a 2004 GMC Envoy XUV in your area this month for 3 years with 15,000 miles per, its base lease rate and residual value should be 2.5% and 56%, respectively. Its 12,000 miles per year residual value for this term would increase to 59%. The 36 month, 15k base lease rate and residual value for an otherwise identical 2005 version of this truck should be 4.5% and 58%, with the 12k residual increasing to 61% As you may already be aware, GMAC publishes lease rates instead of money factors for the vehicles that it leases. These rates can be converted into approximate money factor equivalents by dividing them by 2400.

As far as the 2005 Chevrolet Equinox AWD goes, if you were to lease one through GMAC right now for 3 years with 15,000 miles per, its base lease rate and residual value should be 4.5% and 56%, with the 12,000 miles per year residual value increasing to 59%.

It definitely would be less expensive for you to lease your new truck with 15,000 miles per year initially than to lease it with 12,000 miles per year and have to pay an excess mileage penalty at lease end for an additional 3,000 miles per year. Whether you should lease with the higher mileage allowance depends upon how sure you are that you will use all of your allowable miles.

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CarMan@Edmunds · September 2004

Hi Ollie1. If your lease was ending a little sooner and you were interested in getting another Mercedes-Benz product, you would have been able to take advantage of the current lease pull ahead program that it is offering. It basically will waive the final three lease payments for consumers who purchase or lease certain new Mercedes-Benz models. Unfortunately, you are far enough away from the end of your lease that you do not qualify for this program. I suppose that it is a moot point anyhow because you want a new Audi and not a new Benz.

Looking at things from a financial standpoint, it almost never makes sense to get out of a lease early to lease a new vehicle, unless there is some sort of program like the one that I just mentioned running. Your least expensive option would be to wait until you are closer to the scheduled end of your E-Class lease to get a new vehicle.

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CarMan@Edmunds · September 2004

That is an extremely attractive price, Copper, especially considering that Volvo is not currently providing any cash incentives that I am aware of on this model right now. Since the dealer that you are working with is not using any cash incentives to arrive at the price that you were quoted, I personally don't see any reason why they would not be able to offer you the same deal in October. I suspect that the dealer that you are speaking with is trying to create a false sense of urgency to get you to purchase ASAP. This sort of thing happens all the time. If they don't get you to buy now, they they might lose you. Of course, it is possible that the dealer will not sell you this truck at this price in October like they claim, there just isn't any reason, incentives-wise why this would be the case.

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CarMan@Edmunds · September 2004

You're welcome, rwright325. BMW is indeed providing dealer cash on the 2004 325i right now, but its money factor is much higher than the factor for the 325Ci. If you were to lease a 2004 BMW 325i through BMW FS this month for 3 years with 10,000 miles per, its base lease money factor and residual value should be .00220 and 62%, respectively.

I do not believe that the $1,500 dealer cash is taken into account in the TMV price that Edmunds.com has listed for this car. For more feedback on its pricing, you may want to check out the following discussion that appears here in the Town Hall: "BMW 3-Series: Prices Paid & Buying Experience".

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mzinzi · September 2004

Hi CarMan...

I'm looking for the September numbers for the following:

2005 Subaru Legacy 2.5 GT Sedan
36 and 39 months
12k and 15k per year

2005 Saab 9-2x Aero
24 and 36 months
12k and 15k per year

I'm in CT if it matters.

Thanks as always!!!

CarMan@Edmunds · September 2004

Hi n_kolodziej. Both of the vehicles that you mentioned are nice cars. I personally prefer the looks of the G35 coupe to the 9-3, but Infiniti is not currently providing any sort of support on it, while Saab is providing a TON of support on the 9-3. In terms of MSRP versus lease payment, the 9-3 is the better "value" than the G35 couple is. I don't know the exact difference in these vehicles' prices, but we could figure it out if you provide me with a little more information. Tell me how long your father wants to lease for, how many miles per year he needs to be able to drive, the full MSRPs, and selling prices of these cars and I will work up two sample lease payments for you.

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CarMan@Edmunds · September 2004

Hello poetpindar. In order to work up a sample lease payment ton this car for you, I need to know its full MSRP. Also, you never mentioned what car or truck this is in your post. If you let me know, I can tell you what its current lease program is like and if the dealer that you are working with is trying to mark-up its base money factor to add additional back-end profit to your deal.

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CarMan@Edmunds · September 2004

Hey mk2. Thank you for taking the time to come back and let us all know how everything turned out. You did great. Enjoy your new ride!

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sarabay · September 2004

Carman, the model of Passat is the GLS 1.8T sedan FWD automatic transmission. The financing they want to use is Huntington Bank. The sales manager told me that the price he is giving me is with the dealer cash back. Obviously he's quoting MSRP before subtracting dealer cash.

CarMan@Edmunds · September 2004

Hi mister22. While it is important to know the fact that dealer holdback exists and to possibly take it into account when figuring out how much money you want to pay for your new vehicle, one should never ever mention it during negotiations at dealers. Doing so only serves to annoy them and could possibly cause negotiations to break down. It is very possible that holdback is not taken into account when the commissions for the manager and salespeople are calculated. While some dealers will "dip into holdback" to sell vehicles that there is not a lot of demand for, I personally doubt that many Infiniti dealers are cutting into holdback to make deals.

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mia · September 2004

Hi -

Would you kindly provide me w/ the MF's & residual's on the following vehicles all @ 36mo./36k miles?:

'05 Infiniti FX35AWD & FX45AWD
'05 Lexus RX330 AWD

Thank you in advance.

scanty · September 2004

Hi car_man. I know I'm all over the place these days, but that's what happens when the bug gets you.

A local dealer had the following lease specials ad in the paper yesterday, and I'm looking for numbers. They showed a 2004 350Z Enthusiast model (no options listed, but there aren't any that can be residualized) for $310 per month. The small print said $3000 cap cost reduction, but nothing else. What kind of residual and m.f. are these seeing? I'm thinking about a 36 or 39 month term, and 12,000 per.

dyaiser · September 2004

i have a 4 yr lease on a 2002 toyota highlander. I want to turn in the highlander and lease a 2004 Murino se-
1. how can I make sure that I am not being charged unreasonable fees on the lease agreement? [what are unreasonable fees?]

2 if i am interested in a 2004 & the 2005 units are on the floor, how do I make sure I am not going to be charged a "new car price'

dick

kyfdx · September 2004

Your mistake: You are trying to "reassure them that they are making money".

They must have told you that they aren't making any money on your deal.. You shouldn't have brought up holdback.. Your answer should have been: "Why would I care what you make on the deal, my goal is to pay the least amount possible".

It just really isn't any of your business if or who makes money.. dealer, sales, finance.. so what? Just pay the least amount possible.. Figure out what a fair price is...(that is where knowing about holdback comes in), and offer that.. If they don't chase you out to the car, maybe you need to come up a little..

It doesn't matter if they are blowing smoke or swearing on bibles.. they are trying to convince you to pay more... You CAN'T convince them of your price... they already KNOW what they can afford to sell the car for..

Too much discussion of dealer cost in negotiation only helps them break down your objections.. Sales 101.

Good luck,
kyfdx

vikerii · September 2004

Hello! I've gotten conficting answers on this. Hopefully you can shed some light for me.

I am a small business owner, with one other partner. I would like to lease my next car through my business. It would be primarily for business (majority of miles that is) but I would use it for personal reasons as well too.

Am I still eligible to lease it through my company? Is this common? I don't want to get in trouble, yet I would like to take advantage of the tax benefits.

I've talked to two CPAs on this: one said OK to lease, the other said no, finance personally and reimburse via the mileage rate for business miles. But with a lease mileage cap, that wouldn't cover the monthly cost.

Can you help clear this up? Thanks !

mister22 · September 2004

Thanks everyone for the advice on the holdback. I have quickly learned my lesson. I made my offer when I was at the Infiniti dealership, the salesman huffed at the possibility of selling at invoice, he took it to the manager and quickly said thanks so much for coming in and call me if anything changes. I got kicked out it seemed and was not chased out the door to renegotiate. Hmmm. I guess I'll be calling around the region and refining my sales tactics since there's only one dealer in my city.

kyfdx · September 2004

We all live and learn..

Just remember.. once you start making offers, everything the salesman/manager says..is designed to get you to pay more for the car... The only thing you want to convince them of.. is that you have already made your best offer, and that if accepted, you will buy the car on the spot.

good luck!
kyfdx

cwcin916 · September 2004

Car_Man (or anyone else who wants to chime in),

I've been looking at the Saab advertised lease rate for the 92X of $219/month. I've tried to go to the Edmunds.com lease calculator to try and duplicate the rate, but given the MSRP, I can't do it. Even with a MF of zero, I can't get down to $219/month. Here's what I know about the lease offer from the SaabUSA.com site:

*MSRP: $23,685
*Monthly pmt: $218.83 for 36 months, 12,000 mi/yr
*Residual Value: $12,079.35 + $.20/mile
*$2,999 due at lease inception (Down, sec. dep., acq. fee & 1st mo. pmt.

I assumed full MSRP plus a down of about $2,000 (yes, I understand why you encourage zero down), and I just can't get to $219. Do the company-sponsored lease rates assume something other than the MSRP? Is there something else I don't understand? Lastly, is this a good deal (I think that it is...)?

Thanks for your help!

CWC

kyfdx · September 2004

Almost all advertised leases assume some sort of discount from the MSRP for the selling price..

If you figure a selling price of $21,500, a cap cost reduction of $2000 (part of the upfront money) and an MF of .0005 (not unusual for Saab), you can come within a dollar or two of that price.

Saab typically throws a ton of dealer cash into their lease programs.. I'm sure Car-man has the specifics..

regards,
kyfdx

poetpindar · September 2004

vikerii,

I'm a tax attorney in California and am pretty sure IL state law will be the same as Calif law for business leasing purposes. But state law is not the issue, it's the IRS (federal law) you need to worry about. The general rule: it makes more sense to purchase a "business" vehicle if its FMV is 16,500 or less. If more than 16,500 it is better to lease. You can write the entire monthly lease payment off as a current business expense each year reduced by your percentage of personal use. (Example: if you use your car 80% for business and 20% personal then you must reduce your business expense by 20%. If your lease costs $100 per month ($1200 per year) you can write off $1200 X .80 = $960. Also, if you have to put cash down on the lease, for example say $3,000, you take that money as a deduction over the years of the lease. Example: If a three year lease you take $1,000 in the first, second and third year of the lease for the cash down portion, and also take your monthly payments reduced of course by personal use.

Hope not too confusing... leasing is a great way to go for luxury vehicles if you are in business. Also, I don't know how your business is organized... so there may be some small changes to the analysis above if you are a C Corp. But S corp, LLC, Partnerships, and Sole Props are all under the analysis stated above. Good luck...

n_kolodziej · September 2004

He actually completely changed his mind from leasing. Last night he told me that he was probably going to just buy the car instead. So I think he is just going to buy one of the two cars. But performance-wise which vehicle is better. My dad claims that the Saab is faster but i look and the G35 has better HP and Torque. Of course I don't really know too much about cars so, if you could give me any information comparing the performance of the cars that would be very helpful.

Thanks

poetpindar · September 2004

Car_man,

Thanks for your reply...

I'll get it right this time: the car is a BMW 325i 4 door with Premium Package; Sports Package; Automatic; Leather Seats; Xenon Lights; and metallic paint.

Here's the info BMW of Riveride CA sent me:

MSRP: 37,195; 36 months; 15,000 miles per yr; Money factor .00235; Residual Factor 59%; Selling Price 35,115; Bank fee 725; Residual value 21,945.05; Total Depreciation $14,803.32; Monthly payment with tax 585.37; license and registration 278.00; Documentation Fee $45.00; zero cash down.

I think all info is there. Is it a good deal or should I offer lower monthly amount? Thanks for your help.

scanty · September 2004

as long as they are under warranty. But ownership? Run away! Quickly! Just check out the resale values of the two.

kyfdx · September 2004

Agreed... If he gets the Saab, he should lease.. If getting the Infiniti, either buying or leasing should be okay.

kyfdx · September 2004

poetpindar...

Your selling price seems about $1500-$2000 too high.. There is a $1500 dealer incentive on the '04 325i (it is an '04, right?). The "dealer cost" on that model would be about $32,600, once you subtract the incentive.

That sounds like a nice car, with a lot of options, but I come up with an MSRP about $400 higher than what they gave you.

regards,
kyfdx

vikerii · September 2004

poetpindar,

Thanks very much for the advice. That makes sense. I will get a lease under my name - as opposed to the company's name - and then have my company reimburse me for the percent I used for business, as well the downpayment over the lease. BTW, I forgot to mention we are a C Corp.

It just didn't add up using the $0.375 mileage rate to reimburse the business miles, especially with the lease mileage cap.

Thanks again for your help !

poetpindar · September 2004

vikerii,

One last thing; remember to use the "Actual Expense Method" in keeping track of of actual costs you incur while operating your car. These operating costs generally consist of: gas and oil; repairs and maintenance; license fees; tires; insurance; car washing, etc. Example: if you spend $1000 for gas and oil changes and you use the car for 80% business and 20% personal you deduct $800 for the year. Thus, your deductions look like this:

Monthly Lease Payment 12 months: $600 X 12 = $7,200 (80% = $5,760 deduction)

Gas and Oil Expenses 12 months: $1200 X 12 = $14,400 (80% = $11,520)

Insurance Expenses 12 months: $125 X 12 = $1,500 (80% = 1,200)

etc, etc, etc,

As you can see you want to be a bit (not too) creative in creating expenses so you can ultimately reduce your taxable income. Good luck.

upndwn · September 2004

Searching this board and the web, I discovered that GM has been strongly supporting leases on the "new" 9-3 Saab.

In 2/2004 MF was 0.00151 with a 53% residual and $2000 cash.
In 6/2004 was 0.00057 with a 49% residual and $2500 cash.
Presently, MF is 0.00074 for the Arc and Linear and 0.00023 for the Aero with $3500 cash.

I pretty easily received an offer on an Aero of almost $7000 under the MSRP with options. TMV is maybe $1500 under MSRP, but the capitalized cost offered is TMV less $3500 cash and less about $1500. The Dealer said it was applying a certificate or coupon valued at $1200. I would need to pay less than $1000 up front.

I am trying to work out the lease payments for other times of the year to assess whether the incentives make it better to deal now than at another time. I thought December was a slow month in the industry, but can't find figures for that month.

I have seen calculators on the net and it seems they are each a little different. Is the formula below correct,

Depreciation Charge = Cap Cost  Residual (MSRP - Residual %)/Months in Lease Term

Lease Charge = (Cap Cost + Residual) x MF

Depreciation Charge + Lease Charge = Payment without tax

You provide a great service. Thanks for any help you provide.

ny_diva · September 2004

Hi All,
I'm in NY & considering leasing for the first time. I want to avoid being ripped off!! What questions should I ask? What deals should I be looking for? etc.

I'm looking @ the 2004 Acura MDX (base or w/touring for the right price)& an '04 Nissan Murano SL AWD w/Touring. I'm trying to keep my monthly payments @ 375/mo. Between these 2 cars & before I look like an idiot is it even possible to keep this payment amount w/what I'm interested in? I have no car to trade b/c of the mileage on it (I'm going to sell it privately) & I don't believe in trading in cars b/c you get rooked on the deal most of the time.

I already sat down w/Nissan & he quoted me 4800 down/375 mo/15K miles/39 mo lease. I only put a $100 deposit down (hey, I'd rather loose $100 than $500 if I have to).

I was told that I can't apply incentives to the car b/c they went low enough w/the car. Is this true?

Someone please advise me. I'm darn near on foot right now & I need advice quickly.

Thanks & sorry for the long post.

P.S. I'm in Long Island NY (Home of the 8.5% sales tax)

mangas75 · September 2004

I have a BMW 1999 540i sport with 84k miles. My credit score is not so great so I leased the car a few years ago through a local dealer using a leasing company that does not report to my credit until lease is finished. I owe about 25k on the car and Im upside down about 5k. I really want to get out of this lease and go into something cheaper with no money down. I like the new jeep wrangler unlimited and the one dealer i went to said it can't be done because of my credit and the value. Do I have any choices and maybee they can put the difference into the payments. what should i say when i go to a dealer. please let me know thanks.

qbrozen · September 2004

what do you mean by being 5k upside-down? is that the over miles fees you owe? or is the lease not done yet and you want out early?

and what do you mean about not reporting to credit until lease is finished? you mean your record of paying for this lease is completely withheld? Did you always pay on time? If so, doesn't this mean that you would have a better credit score once it is reported? And, again, if so, can you ask them to report it now so you can reap the benefits? How bad is your credit? Its rather odd that a dealer wouldn't at least try to get you into some sort of loan at some sort of outrageous rate. I think the no money down is killing you, though. I believe bad credit usually requires a decent down payment.

lemmer · September 2004

I attempted to lease an RX-8 last night. To make a long story short, they insist that the maximum dealer cash is $2500. That consists of $1000 for the purchase or lease and an additional $1500 for the lease. The salesman said that was for any term. In fact, he refused to give me any numbers for a 24 month lease.

That is just my personal experience. The dealer less than honest about everything else we discussed, so who know. I gave up and left when he was still pushing a 48 month lease for $400 a month on a base 6 speed.

dadyo · September 2004

As an addendum, I am also looking at the BMW 3-series ragtops. If you have any thoughts on what represents the better deal, I would appreciate your sharing them. I truly appreciate your help and guidance. thx

sharkala · September 2004

Hi Car Man,
I am interested in a lease price for 2004 Acura MDX, touring and navigation. MSRP= $41,745 and Invoice is $37,657.10. He would use the figure of 38,800. I would like to lease it for 42 months, 15K a year. Please provide money factor, residual and bottom line price. Thanks.

mazda04rx8 · September 2004

Saw your post about 2500 cash on RX8 leases. My dealer gave me the same numbers. However, I did work numbers on a 24 month lease with 1500 down and 15K miles a year on a vehicle with an MSRP of 31,800.
Got it for $339 month for 24 months.
If your dealer does not cooperate walk/run to another. Where are you located?

gold233790 · September 2004

Ny diva-

I personally am not familiar with the lease deals for those two vehicles, but I can tell you one thing for certain.

NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, put close to 5k down on a lease! Keep that money in the bank and draw on it to help with the higher lease payments, but all down payments do on a lease is make it look prettier. Still paying the same amount over the life of the lease, and by shelling that amount out up front you leave yourself open to a ton of risk. If you total the car, have it stolen, etc., that down payment is bye bye....

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