Synthetic motor oil

rcarboni · August 2000

A good oil and filter will remove impurities from the moving parts, and a cheap oil and filter will not. Therefore, it is the oil, and mostly the filter, at fault if impurities are found during the advertised change interval. Beyond the interval is negligence.

What makes the engine leak with a change to synthetic? Please enlighten us.

I don't think anyone hear is questioning regular maintenance. The question is more about the limits of maintenance and the benefits of synthetic. There are many opinions about synthetics being snake oil and not worth the "cost". However, I never see anything technical to disprove the benefits of synths, or exhibit the benefits of conventionals. It's always "I heard", or "my car ran x miles". I'm just trying to extract the truth from the fluff.

armtdm · August 2000

If the engine has been run on dino for many miles say over 50,000 the dino builds up a coating of varnish etc.that actually helps to keep the seals/gaskets from leaking. The change to syntheitc will remove that build up and if the gaskets/seals are not in great shape you may see a leak. My expereince with switching to synthetics on new and used has been that over time both will eventually leak but no greater chance of it with synthetic if engine was clean and maintained to begin with. Same is true with ATF

markbuck · August 2000

My GM idiot oil change light typically triggers somewhere between 2,900 and 3,600 miles. I live at 7,000', make many short trips, and my greatest concern (shared with the GM oil change algorithm) is dilution, and combustion by-products due to these short cold trips. A premium oil filter and to some extent premium oils don't offset this problem.

I did run 0W-30 Mobil 1 last winter during a snowmobile trip to Yellowstone and encountered temps to -30F.

I do run synthetics in my race bikes, just can't justify the cost in my daily driver/tow vehicle for most circumstances

I have a new 2001HD chevy with 6.0L gas on order, you guys are wearing me down with the synth argument, so I might go Mobil 1 full time in the engine, but would keep oil changes at the normal short interval.

rcarboni · August 2000

Does anyone know the algorithm used in the "Oil Life" gauge on the newer GMs? Based on what I can gather, the RPMs of the engine are factored along with the temperature of the engine. Using these two inputs only, how is this different from mileage and driving habit? It clearly does not know the particulate count in the oil.

markbuck, your situation is more about the additives in the oil and the cold temp zone (pour point). A synth will help with the pour point, and synths typically have better emulsion modifiers and corrosion inhibitors than the petros, but since many brands don't advertise the additive levels, it's typically a guessing game without analysis. I think the rule of thumb is 50% loss of TBN indicates that the additive package is spent and it's time for a change.

dgsg · August 2000

Race engines cost ALOT of money!!!
How many professional race teams do you see using Amsoil???

rcarboni · August 2000

Here you go:
http://www.amsoil.com/racing.htm

although, you should know that race sponsering is a scam in itself. Many professionals have promoted (and still do) obvious questionable products such as Slick 50 and Prolong. They tear those engines down after every race anyway.

ruking1 · August 2000

#196
Here are some numbers I ran across during a url search;( http:/www.ibmwr.org/otech/oil_faq.html )

I use 5-30W Mobil One.
amsoil
so respectively,

viscosity index 165 186 ( higher the better)
flash 445 464 ( higher the better)
pour -65 -76 ( lower the better)
% ash -- -- ( lower the better)

So the difference is really of hairs.

jetfixr2 · August 2000

Ease off the warp speed, captain. Just becasue I chose a Fram filter doesn't mean it's the end of the world or a threat to national defense! Soooorry! If it lowers your blood pressure a tick or two, I put the appearently-infamous AMSOIL in the car(now, let's all repeat it three times so we remember what it is).

I USE IT IN ALL OF MY VEHICLES! (Ohh noooo!)
By the way, only the car has a Fram filter. I use a different brand on my other vehicle. If you're that interested in what it is, ask.

Also if you look closely at my post, it was a comment about my late VW with dino oil in it, in response to #200. Some of us are taking this stuff waaay too seriously. Okay, I know I'm guilty of shooting my mouth too. D'oh!

Just a question, does anyone here use Quaker State...? Any other brand other than the two currently being debated over? ;-)

mattchalmers · August 2000

I am not sure about the oil change light, but my Grand Prix used a percentage of remaining life to cover oil changes. These are the four things I know that went into the equation: Number of cold starts, average engine temp, rpm, time spent at normal temp. In other words, if you cruise 30 miles on the interstate every day it will return few cold starts, normal average temp, low rpm, significant time at optimum engine temp.

ccotenj · August 2000

maybe he expressed it in a wrong way, but your response basically is unfair. if you'd take the time to read through this thread as well as the other oil threads, you'll find an almost universal agreement on fram filters.

however, use what you like. it's your car. why you would use the most expensive oil with the cheapest filter is beyond me, however.

-Chris

jnowski · August 2000

disclaimer: I no longer use fram filters.

Having said that, I want to point out that Fram filters DO meet or exceed the auto manufacturers OEM specifications. So using them does not void your car warranty, or automatically ruin your engine. Now if you, like myself, want to get that extra peace of mind from the use of a premium filter, go for it. But don't try to imply that Fram filters are so much junk they will ruin your engine, cause the auto manufacturers say otherwise.

armtdm · August 2000

Never said a Fram would ruin the engine. Very sufficient if you change your oil every 3,000 miles, hell, you don't even need a filter if you do that. Actually a roll of toilet paper in a can was and probably is the best oil filter ever made (we can debate which brand of toilet paper to use) but meeting the OEM specs is pretty easy. True for oil, oil filters etc. etc. It amazes me that when you go to a dealer and they have a filter display with the filter cut in half and compare it to their filter it is always a Fram that they compare to, easy to see the difference.

ruking1 · August 2000

Well, you have to admit if the company like Toyota selling Toyota filters would probably not say Toyota filters at least meets our minimum specifications? Golly even Fram sez meets or exceeds and they do it cheaper?

rcarboni · August 2000

Maybe this has been posted already, but here is a very interesting (and independent) filter comparison study:
http://members.xoom.com/minimopar/oilfilterstudy.html

loyola · August 2000

We have a '92 Camry V6 and '98 Sienna. I have used
several types of oil filters and stayed with Purolator One until I found this website, www.trasko-usa.com, claiming their spin-on filter can filter up to 1/100 of a micron and a reusable media. But I think $68 each is too much.
Any comments on this.

bottgers · August 2000

Fram filters are junk. Mobile 1 and Purilator pure one are the best filters. Whoever said you don't even need to worry about your oil filter if you change your oil every 3K miles probably thinks that Jackalopes are real animals! Why bother changing your oil? Why bother worrying about anything? Just run your oil 100K and let the dealership change your oil when you take your car in to have the platinum plugs changed.

The filter is every bit as important as the oil. I would use one of these filters(Mobile 1 or Purilator)even if I only used conventional motor oil. You're only hurting yourself by buying cheap filters and cheap oil.

ruking1 · August 2000

#222,#223
Ah, yes, on the horns of a dilemma! But to add fuel to the debate;

(The real lack is one of standards for the oil filter, either in filtering ability and its long term consequences, or mileage between changes.)

On one of my suv's, I go 15k between oil changes (Mobil One 5-30W) and have used fram ph8a filters, but now have gone back to the oem filters. I have 80k on the the clock, so my next scheduled oil change is 90k. At the 60k major tune,(the important thing being removing the valve cover gaskets and checking for valve adjustment,) the oem dealer certified it not needing adjustment and the engine was cleaner than a whistle. Oil use has been consistent at 1/4 to 1/2 quart at app 12-14k. So in light of the above posts, this is a cheap filter/expensive oil scenario.

armtdm · August 2000

Too bad that Mobil does not have the (balls so to speak) to publicly state that their oil is good for 15k-25k as they originally did when it came out years ago. I believe they caved in to peer pressure from other oil refiners and their own dino side. Your experience shows it is a great oil. At least Amsoil, I feel, had the guts to go against the big oil companies with its extended drain claims.

ruking1 · August 2000

If I had to guess I would say you are correct, but truly I don't know why they caved in.

Actually, I have read in some A/B comparisons that Amsoil is slightly better than Mobil One. In my opinion, the reason why Amsoil is more in price, is that they probably produce far less in volume and might have different distribution method/s than Mobil One. In my opinion, while I don;t use Amsoil, it is a superior product.

vernlew · August 2000

I went down to the local K-Mart to purchase a Mobil 1 filter...luckily I opened the box to check it out first...guess what it contained? A Fram filter! Beware, when shopping for your expensive Mobil 1 filter, that you get what your paying for...as some people out there have decided to give themselves their own discount by taking a Fram box to the register...with a Mobil 1 filter in it!
Vern

poisondartfrog · August 2000

Very sneaky! Fortunately, since I'm paying a premium for the Mobil 1 or Ultraguard AC filter, whichever is on sale at the time, I always check the filter, as the one time I didn't, and the can was dented, whoops!

Thanks for the heads up.

jgriff · August 2000

I recently purchase an '88 Beretta [132k miles]from a known person. He changed oil like clockworks every 3k, I think he used Texaco Havoline.

I was plannig to switch to M1, is it too late in the ballgame to switch? In reading post # 208 it seems like it not worth the risk.

dgsg · August 2000

Did you hear about the expensive Italian gun maker who made a cheap gun and called it a chevy?

edwardh1 · September 2000

The Amsoil and red line oil brands never seem to have any tests run by independant people.

Consumer Reports recommends 7500 mile oil changes.

The Fram filters have "paper" end caps.

armtdm · September 2000

I have been a loyal user of Amsoil for many years, swear by it but it is rare, for any product to give the name of the independent lab that performed the tests if any... I know of no synthetics that have independent lab results that will publish the name of the lab. Consumer Reports really should do a test of synthetics. Too much marketing hype, like everything in America today, never know who or what to believe. I do know, Firestone as a Comapny is dead, they will never recovery from this disaster. BANKRUPTCY !

kdominczak · September 2000

Is it true that, synthetic oil like Mobil1 can make the engine work with less strain (quieter)?
Also, can it improve fuel economy and overall performance of the engine?
There is a lot of Mobil1 users, what are your experiences with that product?

armtdm · September 2000

Yes to all of the questions kdominczak has! You forgot quicker and quieter starts in very cold temperatures, extended drain intervals

spokane · September 2000

As Poisondartfrog and Vernlew said, it's best to check each filter when you buy it. I have encountered missing rubber gaskets and split housings. The housing damage was caused by an error in crimping; a misaligned crimping machine component cut through the thin metal housing.

bottgers · September 2000

I disagree. Whether you change your oil every 3K or 15K, you should still use the best filter you can get your hands on. It doesn't make any sense to be so concerned about your vehicle's maintainance that you change the oil every 3K miles, and then slap any ol' piece of crap oil filter on. That's like washing your cloths every day, then stuffing them in a drawer full of dirt! I use Mobile 1 full synthetic, a Mobile 1 filter, and I change my oil and filter every 7500 miles. Even if I changed my oil every 3K, I'd still use a Mobile 1 filter.

armtdm · September 2000

I concur but for someone on lease or who will unload the car under 100,000 miles a cheap filter and oil will get them to their goal. Now, I would not want to buy that car from them but many people feel that way. Glad to see you go 7,500 with Mobil 1.

pcleveland2 · September 2000

CR has tested synthetic oils, BUT in my opinion they did the wrong test. They tested on fleet vehicles which had low starting cycles and long running times. They concluded that dyno oil was just as good, provided it was changed per manufactures recommendation. We start our vehicles more than owners of taxi cabs in NYC do. The starting process is where there is a lack of oil and more wear to the engine. This is where, I believe synthetic shines. It circulates much quicker thru the engine at cold start-up, providing protection quicker than the dyno oil does. Nuf said!

bottgers · September 2000

I've found it's best to take CR's published results with a grain of salt. If everyone took their results as gospel, there wouldn't be any car sales from the big 3. But that's another issue.

Did CR happen to mention the fact that synthetic oil is more resistant to combustion contaminant saturation (this is what turns your oil black) than conventional is. Or that synthetics maintain their viscosity at higher temperatures than conventionals do. Or that synthetics flow better at colder temperatures than dynos do. My guess is, probably not. If they would have, they wouldn't have been able to make the statement that dynos are just as good as synthetics. Dyno is not as good as synthetic, and don't let anyone try to kid you into thinking they are!

shefler · September 2000

I have a 2000 GMC Yukon and changed to Synthetic motor oil shortly after purchase. Synthetic gear lube was already in the limited slip rear end from the factory. Any thoughts on using Synthetic in the automatic trans? I keep my vehicles a long time. My present Chev Caprice has 185,000 miles and I changed the trans fluid every 30,000, but it started slipping when going in to passing gear many miles ago. It might not have any bearing on fluid.

Thanks for any info.

Stan Mojave Desert so CA

div2 · September 2000

I firmly believe that the ability of synthetic ATF to withstand thermal breakdown is a major advantage. The problem is that it is imposible to replace ALL the fluid in an autobox by simply dropping the pan. Try to find a shop with an ATF flushing machine and see if they will load it up with the synthetic ATF of your choice. I use Mobil 1 Dexron III in my 1993 Pathfinder SE, but I've also heard good things about Amsoil and Redline.

dberti · September 2000

Changed oil about 4,000 miles ago with Mobil 1. About how far can I expect to go between oil changes.

Thanks
Davide

ruking1 · September 2000

#243

I would agree with you. I am one of those that goes 15,000 miles between oil changes. One of the things that is not understood/well hidden is the reason why the 3,000 mile oil and filter change is the defacto standard. There are more technical reasons, but two big ones are less superior lubricant (conventional vs synthetic) and the much higher percentage ash content of conventional oils.

bottgers · September 2000

3K miles is a good interval for changing conventional motor oil because, well, it just doesn't hold up beyond 3K miles. Synthetics can easily go 7500 between oil changes. I change my synthetic every 7500 just because I don't like running my oil until it's jet black. I've read that synthetics offer good protection even beyond 7500 miles though.

ruking1 · September 2000

#245
Higher ash % is a measure of thermal breakdown or the product... SLUDGE. Since synthetic has a higher temp tolerance and a lower ability to form sludge it can and does last longer as a lubricant. So the jet black you are seeing in conventional oil is partly the sludge that would form if you let it go to the maximum capability of the conventional oil.

ruking1 · September 2000

Given the situation, the synthetic oil gives you the ability to extend your oil changes, whether you do or not is really a personal decision based on many many reasons.

For me, I look at it in the best and worst case this way.

Based on 100,000 miles using 3000k intervals I would have 34 oil changes vs 6 for a 15,000 mile interval. Since structurally, the synthetic has WAY less % ash the long term chance of forming sludge is greatly reduced, not to mention the time and product cost. I keep in mind that I have 4 rigs, so it severely drops the intervals in which I have to change the oil.

Since I no longer change my own oil, the cost difference over 100 k miles is 1020 conventional oil vs 288 for synthetic. While 3.54 x more cost for the conventional oil may or maynot be a big deal, I really like the reduced amount of trips.

bottgers · September 2000

Any type of oil will turn jet black if left in your engine long enough. That's why I change mine every 7500 miles. I've noticed if I run my oil longer than that, even when using synthetic, it turns black. If I change it at 7500 miles, it's starting to turn black, but I can still see through it. Conventional oil has always been jet black at the 3K mile oil changes.

ruking1 · September 2000

For me the oil approaches jet black past the 15,000 mark. But since I change it at the 15,000 mark it is more of a dark brown but nothing like the color of conventional oil at 3000 as you have noted.

badger8 · September 2000

I have a 2000 GMC sierra truck with 5800M. When should I change the regular oil to synthetic oil and what brand do you recommend? Thanks Regdab

estimated99 · September 2000

....im not a motorhead but have read many good comments about SYN --- they actual changing to SYN is just drain the old stuff and put the SYN in -- in other words it doesnt matter if theres a little of the old stuff mixed in there ..... theres bound to be --- someone tell me if its anything more than that (i know you dont flush it with water) but do you let it drain for alot longer than you would if you were putting the same stuff back in or anything like that ---Thanks for the comments

spokane · September 2000

Several good points in many of the recent comments. Thanks.

Bottgers, I fully agree that viscosity stability, low ash, and cold-flow characteristics are key attributes of synthetic oil. Too, your point regarding "more resistant to combustion contaminant saturation than conventional oil" is a major advantage. I don't doubt this characteristic but have resisted too much extension of synthetic oil change intervals for lack of any real knowledge of this particular criteria. Can you point the way to any documentation regarding comparisons or test results regarding combustion contamination saturation? Thanks.

upfever · September 2000

I have a Chrysler 300M (3.5L 252 hp engine) and I was wondering whether it would be bad for the engine to switch to Mobil 1 0w-30. The manual recommends 10w-30, presumably petro oil. I live in the San Francisco Bay Area where temperatures range from 42-85 F typically. I'm interested in the better fuel economy and more horsepower from thinner, synthetic oil. What are the potential problems of using 0w-30?

armtdm · September 2000

In SF I would stay with the synthetic 10 W 30. No need to go to a 0W30. I do not believe you will get better mileage over a 10W30 synthetic. I tried the Amsoil 0W30 in lieu of my 10W30 Amsoil once and saw no change in gas mileage or starting (Ric, VA) and it cost $2/qrt more for the 0W30. I went back to the 10W30. I have used the 10W30 in all 5 of my engines, three of which recommend 5W30 with no ill effects. In a really cold climate, N.Dakota, WI or Maine etc. I would go with the 0W30.

armtdm · September 2000

At 5800 miles you can change at anytime. I personally do it at 1,000 miles. I prefer Amsoil and have used it for nine years. Swear by it, however, Mobil 1 is great and it is the only one I would recommend besides Amsoil. All others are new to the field and wannabees.

rcarboni · September 2000

http://www.synthlubes.com/changeover.html

wilcox · September 2000

Back in '80's I learned about 5W-30 motor oil. It seems to be recommended in the owner's manual of every car we have owned.

Valvoline is my personal choice. It looks better..is about all I can say. It has given great results.
Have read advertisments that synthetic is better. And after reading 100+ posts here, one can assume that it is better!
Two years ago I bought the Valvoline synthetic "blend" and started using it for every oil change (between 3,500-4,500 mi). Please try not to laugh. I guess that the cost factor had something to do with choosing blend. And that's a good justification for most. I mean what can it hurt? Everything has been fine so far.
Now, if total synthetic can get...like 15,000 mi before oil change, and regular oil can hold up for 4,000 miles, then wouldn't the "blend" be capable of 10,000 miles before a change?

tboner1965 · September 2000

What you don't know is the blend percentages. Is is 50-50 or 10% synthetic and 90% regular.

Without any numbers on the blend, unless you can get the analysis information like you see at the "famous" oil comparison site. (I think it has been posted here before.) You may be paying more for your synthetic blend based on the amount/quality of the oil you use.

With that said, I'm sure it is a quality oil, but it would be hard to extrapolate that you could go 10K miles with it.

Cheers,

TB

Synthetic motor oil

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