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information is my point. or at least the point of this forum. be it good info or bad info, or even old info. information, is still information.. lol 8) Not everyone on this forum has a PH.D in chemistry. or took motor oil 101 .. lol
It's all good.....
"peace love & recycle" (oil that is)
Best Regards,
Shipo
Anyway, Mobil 1 5W30 and 10W30 always had slightly different pour points. I thought the 5W30 was -55F and the 10W30 -49F ... at least those were the numbers off the bottle (and from my memory).
But, I like the way you are trying to glean changes in formulation from publicly available technical info. I do this all the time. >;^)
It would not surprise me to find that Mobil 1 is changing their formula to compete on price with all the synthetics using hydrocracked crude. That stuff is, after all, about half as expensive to make. BUT, I have no evidence of this. I just avoid all the mass-market synthetics these days.
--- Bror Jace
In the past 15 years, I have used dino as well as Mobil 1 on all my cars (4) and never had one of them experiencing engine problem. My recent two cars carry free maintenance from BMW and I know the BMW oil is actually Castro Syntec which is not "real" synthetic as the Mobil 1. From a consumer point of view, the difference in quality between the two may not be as significant since I will change oil at 7500 miles intervals, double the BMW schedule. At 7500 miles, will there be meaningful difference between the two type of "synthetics" for engine protection? I think not. The quality of all types of oil has improved so much, the breakdowns in car components these days tend to lie elsewhere. My 15 year old car developed "power steering rack" leaking problem which led me to get rid of it. The engine was still going strong without using one drop of oil! Just some thoughts from a non-purist!
I have a SJ rated Mobile 1 5W-30 bottle in front of me. It says pumps to -59°F.
The pour point of the SJ Mobile 1 is -65°F for BOTH 5W-30 and 10W-30. I keep the record of these. Mobile just replaced the SJ info with the SL so thst SJ info is no longer available on the Mobile Website but it is still available in many other non-Mobile sites (compiled by others) such as
http://www.eskimo.com/~dalus/bmw/all/misc/all_oilfaq.html
I have also found the mother lode of info on the Eaton Supercharger. There are 100's of thousands of them out there on GM cars...mostly on Park Ave. Ultras, and 1992 and up, Pontiac Bonneville SSEi's
Eaton has a company in California that re builds and sells parts for these units.
You are right, it's the front bearing assembly' that usually goes bad.
They sell this fix "(parts only) for about $350.00, or a whole rebuilt, for $1100.00".
If anyone else needs to know more about any of this, the company is..
Magnuson Products, Ventura Ca. phone 805 642 8833
I have an e-mail to their tech dept, to see if they will tell me what brand of synthetic
they use in the rebuilds, and how much the units hold. ( Will post what they say)
By the way 'alcan' my 97' owners manual
doesn't mention anything about a "drain At 30K and re-fill" but this makes a lot of sense, considering that when there are any particles in the oil, the sealed supercharger unit acts just like a big, high speed rock polisher.
(I don't think Lubeguard had been invented yet)
My Ford power steering pump also fell victim to all the filings in the polluted P/S fluid, moaning and groaning on every turn and had to be replaced. (a total $1200 job)
Eventually the auto industry did what they should have done in the first place, and 'fixed' the problem by putting in a steel sleeve that kept the sliding seal tight and didn'tself distruct.
After these episodes I am wary of the whole Power Rack Units to this day, and don't mind pulling out the old P/S fluid and refillingthe whole system with a quart of new quality synthetic from time to time.
They say that the best lessons we learn in life are the ones that cause us pain, or cost us money. (the inherint bad design of those Rotten Racks probably cost some people their lives)
Flash point: (445 F)(455 F)(455 F)
pour point: (-65 F)(-65 F)(-49 F)
viscosity index: (165)(162)(169)
pumpibility limit: (not listed)(-58 F)(-51 F)
specific gravity: (0.874)(0.862)(0.862)
gravity API: (30.4)(32.8)(32.8)
Someone with more knowledge than me can tell us what the differences actually mean as far as which formulation seems better.
Wayne
I would be interested in the 10W-30. I don't have a lot of faith with the numbers posted on Mobil's Internet site-seen contradictions before. I am interested in what the containers say. I want to compare my bottle of 10W-30 to the new stuff. The pour point dropping that much is somewhat troubling. But I suspect that they are starting with a more viscous PAO/Ester because the volitility limits are tightened up on the SL.
That is what I tried to say in an earlier message. If you compare SJ to SL, Mobile 1's pour point and pumpibility limit both INCREASED. That is a sign that they are using less PAO in the formulation. Cheapened formula.
From SJ to SL, the pour point went up from -65 F to -49 F and the pumpibility limit went up from -58 F to -51 F.
The pour point dropping that much is somewhat troubling.
>>
The pour point did not drop. It went up (a bad thing).
<<
But I suspect that they are starting with a more viscous PAO/Ester because the volitility limits are tightened up on the SL.
>>
The flash point did not tightened up in the 5W-30 (stayed the same between SJ and SL) and it actually went down on the 10W-30 from 470 F (SJ) to 455 F (SL).
For those of you who haven't discovered this site yet, try it out. This guy (Phil Bailey, is the real deal) The "Motrlube" product that he mentions, is a Canadian product, but the information might make an interesting addition to all the Amsoilheads and RedLiners duking it out on this site.
I have just filled up a crankcase with the stuff and screwed on a 'Pure One' filter for my first run at getting on the synthetic bandwagon. From what I have seen so far, the start up at -24 without the block heater on, went like this... a surprisingly .quick start, and none of the usual clicks and clacks from the frozen little V6 in the Van. I'm already impressed.
loubapache I don't know if we can say for certain that Flash Point directly affects results on the new API Sequence testing. Perhps someone knows.
longo32 I'm not knocking this product ( Motrlube), but I think people who are looking for the "best" product available must be careful to just not listen to the manufacturing hype that the manufacturer uses to generate sales. This product may be better than Redling, Amsoil or Mobil- but how do you know? There was no real independent results that I was able to find of the product. Just claims.
On the other hand- Amsoil has been around for a long and we have a history of demonstrated success with the product. I would like to see them publish in the SAE- that would further strengthen their reputation. Mobil 1 publishes in the SAE. Their results are able to be seen. One thing that was evident in these tests: They test against premimum products both syn and non-syn and there is a huge gap sometimes in performance. So syn is not necessarily always better or as good as a competing product. RedLine- Has a solid Racing reputation. My concern here is questional long term durability in over the road driving. Also there are no published verifiable tests that I could find. I would like to see this.
Again-not knocking any products. Im just looking for facts.
Al
So, I think it's a GOOD idea that mass-market synthetics thicken up their formulas a bit. Assuming they all pump pretty well when cold, even real cold, let's focus on protection and high temp volatility.
longo32, thnaks for the article. I'm highly skeptical but look forward to reading it anyway. I'll posts thoughts on it later today or tomorrow.
--- Bror Jace
Synthethic or dino - damn I am confused. My feeling is that if I can run a synthethic for 5-6K as opposed to 3,750 recommended oil change for severe driving conditions using dino then the cost difference is a non factor. The difference will not be material. Since I am lazy the thought of not changing the oil as often is appealing but overall I hesitate to make this the deciding factor.
After reading 3000+ posts I truly believe that it probably may not matter and that I can get 200,000 with Mobil 1 or with a quality dino.
This is where I need help from you "oil experts". One Honda is new (5K) and does not really do a lot of short trips but the older one with 28K has 50% of miles with trips under 5 miles. If I go with synthetic, I was going to go with Mobil 1. From what I have read here it appears to at least be one of the better synthetics and is easily accesible. I am beginning to believe that I might be better off just going with a good dino but no one really says which kind they prefer. Would Valvoline or Chevron be a good choice? Is one brand or another better for my 4 cylinder Hondas?
I would really appreciate any of you oil gurus telling me what you would recommend for my situation and why. Thanks.
flash point: (450 F)(470 F)(455 F)
pour point: (-65 F)(-65 F)(-49 F)
viscosity index: (160)(147)(145)
gravity API: (30.0)(32.0)(30.8)
specific gravity: (0.876)(0.866)(0.872)
pumpibility limit: (not listed)(-49 F)(-42 F)
What does gravity API & specific gravity mean?
Wayne
"solvents are carried over with the lubricating oil fraction and are the major reason for the rapid deterioration of the additives in cheap oil. Within 1000 Km, your ordinary oil is not doing much of a job of lubricating your engine."
I don't think is the case at all. At the very least it is a grand exaggeration of what's going on as an oil deteriorates.
"engine oil has not improved much in the last five years and may, in fact, be less durable than it used to be."
Since this article is dated December 2001, the first part of this statement is either wrong or terribly dated since it seems oblivious to the new SL classification ... which began in the summer of 2001. But, I do agree that SJ was a step backward in protection from SH.
"Hydrogenated Esters (HE) ... are little more than properly modified mineral oils."
Hello? Esters are not made from mineral oil. Is this guy wrong or are their minor semantic/technical differences that are throwing me? Is he trying to talk about hydrocracked crude oils?
"Fourth generation products are ... used in the aircraft industry, where oil changes are uncommon, at least in jet planes."
Hmmm. I thought jet engines used esters ... a Group V base stock, not PAO. When he says "generation" is that equivalent to what most US engineers refer to as "Group"? He seems to be mixing up the two.
"formulating a PAO (polymer) based product containing no mineral oil whatsoever at an affordable price (would be) a fourth generation engine lubricant that can remain in an engine, until the engine is rebuilt."
No. Engine oil still builds up contaminants and needs to be changed at least once each year or so. Besides, isn't calling PAO a "polymer" misleading? Again, it sounds like maybe some semantic differences. There is a great deal of difference between STP-like polymers and PAO in synthetic oils. It sounds to me like his word choice could be a lot better.
"Filtration of pure PAO lubricants is not challenging for the filter because no carbon is present"
Out of the bottle, there may be no carbon but with the byproducts of combustion there is a LOT of carbon. That's what turns the oil dark in most engines. Major oxidation of the base oil and additives usually takes many thousands of miles. He even talks about the byproducts of combustion a few lines down the page. Oops. That's a major contradiction.
And just when I think this guy has very little credibility, he says something I completely agree with:
"VI improvers are polymer compounds with interlocking structures (polymers are long chain molecules). Because these chains are interlocked, they don't move as easily at high temperatures and resist viscosity loss. Unfortunately, they don't necessarily contribute anything to lubricity, and in fact begin to wear out under shear stresses. As they wear, the oil's VI deteriorates, and we're left with the old VI improver, which has to be held in suspension. This is another reason to change your oil frequently! The VI improver's sensitivity to high shear stress is significant in that if the shear stress is high enough, the oil may experience either a temporary or permanent loss of viscosity!"
This is why I recommend people avoid oils with extreme spreads between the winter and summer numbers (i.e. 0W40, 5W50, etc ...). 10W30 (especially the synthetics) have almost none of this unstable viscosity improver at all. Oils that are dependent on this junk don't protect as well as you'd think and they can make a mess of your motor if left in for extended intervals.
Well, the article is a weird, mixed-bag of things I agree with and disagree with strongly. it manages to educate and confuse all at once. If anyone else has a different take or can clarify his statements for the group, please post.
--- Bror Jace
http://www.baileycar.com/
This is his very informative updated weekly web site devoted to his comments on Auto Industry issues.
No comments on Castrols new long life, Synthetic Oil that he mentions?
To me that does not say that the oil had to cause the failure but simply that the engine failed and cause unknown. Their interpretation is that the oil can never fail without a mechanical problem. Thus, only a bad batch of oil manufactured incorrectly could cause the warranty to kick in. Must be able to prove via oil analysis etc that the oil was bad. They will never cover an engine if it fails simply by using Amsoil as directed because it will ALWAYS BE A MECHANICAL FAILURE and thus not a mechanically sound engine. I asked if they have paid any warranties under the Toyota sludge issue. They said no, never will, this is mechanical problem and not an oil problem and the engine is causing nitration. Could never be oil failure.
I believe, unless someone can prove otherwise, they have never ever paid out a dime under their warranty.
I pointed out that if Amsoil knew that these engines were sludge prone would you not inform customers to monitor and change oil more frequently because if it sludged AMSOIL would not honor their warranty. They said, no it is Toyotas problem. Nothing like misleading a customer in my opinion. Knowing that your product cannot protect an engine as advertised but yet unwilling to inform the customer that a issue may exist is NOT ACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR.
So, IMHO this is another warranty that is not worth the paper it is printed on. In my opinion what they should be doing is simple, here's the warranty but only if you can prove the oil was bad from the factory will the warranty be honored and that will be extremely unlikely. I stated that no one has proven a mechanical or engine design fault with Toyota as yet and they said we don't care, the oil cannot fail unless there is a mechanical failure.
What hogwash! As I informed them, I use the oil (for the time being) filters, (although I believe Mobil 1 makes a better filter) and RedLine gear oil which surpasses Amsoils. I have used the oil for ten years with great results but their attitude is really, really annoying! This dealer has been around over 20 years and I feel knows his stuff, just very, very biased and will not listen to reason. Probably is transfused with A.J's blood once a month.
So, like most warranties on this planet, not worth the paper it is printed on should it ever be needed.
Any comments on this warranty?
But having said all of that-they still make a good synthetic (maybe the best). I got home too late to call Mobil on the increase in Pour points and Pumping temperature. If I don't like their answers I probably will switch to Amsoil. I'll make sure though I avoid looking at the disgusting magazine. I wonder if A.J and Sal Zaino are brothers??
Valvoline's SL 10W-30 has a similar pour point now. It may be part of the new classification process.
Remember that the weight of an oil (as bob the oil guy pointed out) flows at exactly the same rate at the tested temperatures regardless of whether it's DINO or Syn. Most of us in the Continental US don't even get close to the -49 pour point standard.
<<
What does gravity API & specific gravity mean?
>>
Specific gravity (SG) is simply the density of the oil divided by the density of water. Water has a density of 1 gram per cubic centimeters. So it if the oil has a density of 0.87 gram per cubic centimeters, then the oil's SG is
(0.87 gram per cubic centimeters)/(1 gram per cubic centimeters) = 0.87.
The API gravity is another way of expressing the SG. It follows this formula:
141.5/(SG at 60 deg F) - 131.5. Its unit is the API degree.
For example, if an oil has SG of 0.87 at 60 deg F, then the API gravity is
141.5/0.87 - 131.5 = 31.1
When it was below -30C (-20F), cars parked outside had problems with starting in the morning. But the problem usually was more with battery, than with oil. Some people removed batteries at evening and brought them home. Other simply jump-started.
1.. lack of oil (either bad oil pump or owner failed to keep enough oil in the engine) both instances, not amsoils fault..... or
2.. a sludged up engine, either because of a mechanical failure like glycol leak or .. again, owner failed to do change oil frequently enough.. you guessed it, not amsoils fault... and guess what, They are correct.
For every supposed oil failure, there is a mechanical possibility for causing the problem.
Havoline, they offer a 30,000 mile warr, and Quakerstate offers a 25,000 mile warr.. All of these warr's are the same way. It's a marketing ploy to get unsuspecting consumers to thing they must have a great oil when in fact there is no way for you to prove the oil is the problem.
here is the warr from amsoil and if you read it the way i see it, you'll find it interesting that they supposedly would even support you and help replace your engine no matter what, then they would help take the manufacture to court. at least that is what i'm seeing.... here it is.-------------------
Only if the oil is determined to be the direct cause of the engine problem can a manufacturer or dealership deny warranty coverage for that specific problem. In this situation the AMSOIL warranty would apply, and the AMSOIL Technical Services Department would assist you in processing your claim and in getting the vehicle repaired. That's our pledge to you. AMSOIL INC. sells millions of gallons of oil per year and warranty claims are a rare occurrence. If you ever have a warranty problem with an automobile manufacturer or dealership, AMSOIL will assist you by analyzing the problem and providing data supporting the fact that repairs should be made under the vehicle manufacturer's warranty. If this does not resolve the problem, AMSOIL will submit a claim with our insurance company and request that an adjuster have the vehicle repaired and pursue legal settlement later if necessary. The fact is there never has been an engine failure attributed to the non-performance of AMSOIL products, and we do not expect there ever ---------
end of warr claim.
bob
On a side note, I have been reading this forum and I decided to change over my year old 17,000 mile Toyota 4Runner from 3,000 mile change of 5W-30 Castrol GTX to 5,000 mile drain 5W-30 Mobil One. My local Target has Mobil One for $2.94 and Castrol has been running around $1.29 at K-Mart. The talk of cheaping Mobil One didn't scare me off. I hope this is a positive move. Any comments. Should I shorten the Mobil One oil change from 5,000 miles? I am so locked into changing oil at 3,000 miles.
engine failure occurs while using the product, someone from the company will talk to your dealership and say," hey, it ain't the oils fault pal" That's about it..... Big Deal! As long as the crankcase was not empty, the dealerships would never think it was the oil's fault anyway , Even the cheapest 50 cent a quart re-cycled oil,, doesn't cause your engine to suddenly fly apart on the freeway all by itself. So its a safe bet, Amsoil, Mobile one, Redline, or Castrols new Longlife' won't cause your motor to blow up in your face either. A golden "warranty" position for any oil maker to take. You could never prove it was the oil and not some 'wear item' in the engine that failed. So the distributer always have a 'warranty' to spout off about, but they never have to cover a claim! Good for you for taking a crack at it, tho.
The whole oil ' warranty' thing IS a joke, and at least now this Amsoil distributor might not be quite so quick to insult the intelligence of the next guy through the door. (but I wouldn't bet the rent money on it)
Thanks.
"On a side note, I have been reading this forum and I decided to change over my year old 17,000 mile Toyota 4Runner from 3,000 mile change of 5W-30 Castrol GTX to 5,000 mile drain 5W-30 Mobil One. My local Target has Mobil One for $2.94 and Castrol has been running around $1.29 at K-Mart. The talk of cheaping Mobil One didn't scare me off. I hope this is a positive move. Any comments. Should I shorten the Mobil One oil change from 5,000 miles? I am so locked into changing oil at 3,000 miles. "
My only question is: why even bother if you are going to go to a 5k change? Conventional oil will handle it just fine and the protection is more than adequate.
I have been doing 15k oil change intervals in TLC's and have over .5M miles with this interval.(Mobil One 5w-30) I also have had one that has gone 250k with no sludge whatsoever. The dealer takes off the valve covers at specific intervals and not only do the valves not need adjustment, but according to them the engine is very very clean. (trust me, they would recommend a Borsche type cleaning, if it were not)
#3037
In the words of the Nike commercial after you drain the old fluid, JUST DO IT! (if you want to flush flush, if not the conventional fluids are compatible with the synthetic fluids anyway.
I converted to synthetic ATF on a 6 speed transmission and not only is the shifting smoother, the gas mileage seems about 1 mpg better.
I am from the old school of oil changes and to be honest with you, the problem with sludge in certain Toyota engines makes me think, shorter oil changes aren't so bad. I have 2 older high mileage cars that I am not going to change over to Mobil One and keep with Castrol GTX and the overly conservative 3,000 miles. Thanks for the response.
Yeah, I gear most everything to longevity! The TLC was sold not because I didn't think it could go to 300-500k but just flat had too many vehicles. The FJ60 (1987) has an almost rabid cult following (not as strong as the FJ40's) I have read the 1987 model yr had app 2k imported into the USA. Needless to say it experienced about 44% depreciation in 15 yrs. (3% a yr) I am starting to regret selling it already.
The other thing is that the 15k oil change cuts down the number of times I have to either change the oil myself or get it done. (I have 4 vehicles now vs 20 trips.)
armtdm, I never thought much too of warranties. Bought a Ford Escort GT in 1986, got the extended warranty and everything that went wrong with that car had to be driveline related and then they'd fix it .. . for $75. New rear wheel bearings: $75. New alternator: $75. Turn signal stalk snaps and falls off: Bror is S.O.L. because it wasn't a driveline component. Besides, notice how $75 would cover most of those repairs I listed at most shops even without the warranty? What a rip-off! I've had Honda honor their bumper-to-bumper warranty regarding exhaust system corrosion and electrical gremlins when the cars were very new but I'll remain a skeptic of most warranties until I hit the grave. If companies can wiggle out of them by blaming someone else (another company of the owner), they will. I buy based on a reputation of quality and if I'm disappointed, I switch brands until I find one that meets my expectations.
So, when I hear of oil warranties like Amsoil's, I just assume it's a bunch of BS like I assume all oil warranties are. I think Crazee Bob summed it up well with this statement: "It's a marketing ploy to get unsuspecting consumers to thing they must have a great oil when in fact there is no way for you to prove the oil is the problem."
Speaking of which, I saw a television ad for the new Quaker State stuff last night as I was dozing off. Was I that sleepy or are they now offering 250,000 mile warranty? Interesting ... but not so much that I'd consider switch brands of oils. It's all a bunch of marketing nonsense and legalistic mumbo jumbo.
As for Mobil 1, there are two issues I have. One is the reduced EP additives (zinc phosphate - ZDDP) which is not really in much doubt. They list it on their MSDS sheet and they actually brag about it on the back of their bottles. All SJ oils have reduced their use of this purposeful compound but Mobil 1 seems to have gone to the extreme using only 0.75% perhaps believing that their base oil was so gosh darn good, they didn't need as much ZDDP as most others.
Whether or not Mobil is actually cheapening their formula is a big mystery and all I've heard is rumor ... but everyone has to know they are competing with other brands of oil that have done just this. I know I was pretty surprised to hear that one of their techs admitted their synthetic oil failed to meet the SL standard ahead of time. That right there tells me that there probably wasn't that big of a difference in protection between Mobil 1 and many dino oils. They simply flowed better at a given temperature giving you 1-3% better mileage and power.
Where I am right now is that the hydrocracked oils are getting good enough at resisting oxidation and vaporization that the cost difference between the SL oils (blended with hydrocracked oil and possibly even PAO and esters) and the mass-market $4 per quart synthetics isn't justified. It's not just Mobil, it's most of the others as well.
If you are going with a synthetic oil, use one you know has a good PAO or polyol base AND a potent EP (extreme pressure) additive package (lots of zinc and/or moly). This could be Amsoil, Red Line, Schaeffers, etc ... but I don't know if any of the mass-market oils satisfy both of these requirements anymore.
As for the consumer having no power, that's not really the case. The problem is that we are vastly outnumbered by the non-thinking consumers out there who are content to believe the hype and go with the flow. The companies market to this mass of goofballs (because it's easier and they are where the numbers are) and we thinking folks have an uphill struggle to get what we want.
--- Bror Jace
All of these oils has the zddp but levels do vary.
Amsoil.. synth..doesn't carry moly in thier oil (not api cert'd).. costs.. 4-$7.00 per qt. in biz 30 some years. found in select dealer locations
Redline.. synth, has exceptional high levels of moly not api cert'd.. costs avg 5-$9.00 per qt in biz ?? years, found in select dealer locations
Schaeffers.. blend, has moly, and is api cert'd. avg cost 2.75 per qt. in biz 160+ years, found in select dealer locations.
Royal purple.. synth.. has moly and api cert'd (i think)
avg cost.. ??? in biz ??? foundin select dealer locations.
Torco MPZ.. ?? synth??, has moly, not api(i think).
just some base comparisions on oil's with moly.
bob
The Amsoil dealers deny it but the rumors are that the long drain oils would not pass (neither would RedLines) the API tests due to a very high anti wear additive package, Amsoil uses zinc and phosphorus and Redline uses heavy moly. True or not I do not know. Amsoil says it is the cost of getting the API certification which is the reason they don't have it, I am not sure I believe that.
On another point, their containers all say meet or exceed etc. API SL standards etc. Of course, that is their own lab saying this, it is not an independent lab testing their product or if it is they refuse to state the name of the lab doing the testing. This is also true of RedLine. Everything has to be taken with a grain of salt when listening to these oil reps.
With all that said, I have been using their non certified 10W30 for 10 years with so far excellent results. (although I totally am disgusted with their sleazy newsletters and marketing techniques) I would not consider their API oils because I do believe they have a less then optimal additive package but they are fine for 7500 mile changes. However, based upon my oil analysis I feel that Mobil 1 or K&N or Pure One filters do a better job then Amsoil/Hastings filters although I still use the Amsoil filters on most of my cars. RedLine definitely, IMHO, makes a better gear oil.
I have been getting it cheap, but maybe it not even worth the extra $1-2 per quart? I have a new car, and would like to keep it for a long time. One thing seems for sure, they don't produce the sludge that dino oil does (over time)... is this true?
I've asked this before, but does it matter if I change brands with each oil change?