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Synthetic motor oil

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Comments

  • bobistheoilguybobistheoilguy Member Posts: 270
    about my statement....

    In response to bror's comment about extreme levels of protection...with moly, I was reffering to thier non api oil since it is a known fact that thier xl7500 series meets api and would not have any higher levels of protection than any other standard oils. So, I WAS reffering to thier non api oil since this is the one touted as thier best oil. There is no argument that they carry 3 oils certified.

    armtdm... Redline is not api certified because of the heavy moly but because of the heavy use of zddp (like amsoil). The moly has no effect on the standard astm tests used for the certification.

    Another point is the cost of certification is very inexpensive (less than 900.00). It is the actual tests that costs so much. Because of that alot of companies opt not to have them tested therfore no certification. That said, how can they say they meet(or exceed) api specs since they don't have the tests done? I could mix some oil together and bottle it, tell you it exceeds the api specs, and there is no way for the avg person to know otherwise. case in point, look at all these oil additives out there. thier tests are done in cars on the track or personal friends. obviously amsoil does do atleast some oil analysis.

    I totally agree it is ashame they use such marketing tactics. That is one of my biggest problems with them. I try not to hammer thier oil as far as quality but thier way of mis leading people into believing all of thier propaganda. I just want people to know what consiquences they will have if they follow amsoils advice on extended drains and such. I strongly believe you cannot just throw that oil in and go 25k miles on any oil with out first doing a purge. Then after that there should be a oil analysis program in place when extending. The biggest problem is they don't advise customers on how to properly extend drains and thereby some people pay for it. I have had people say "your company wont do 25k drains but amsoil will so yours isn't as good." my response is we don't encourage anyone to extend blindly but we will extend. we have people doing 10-30,000 mile drains but only using analysis and usually has to be steped up not just put it in and go that far. There is far too many variables for each person to just blanket extended drains at a set milage no matter what as alot of you do know. This is one of the things that gets my goat and why I try so hard to help people understand before they run into serious problems.

    One other point I want to mention is Why do you think redlines gear oil is so good... Because they use the moly. The moly cannot be squeezed out between the gear teeth therefore it reduces the friction and will increase milage. Most all gear lubes use heavy amounts of zddp and that's why you don't see much advantage with amsoil vs some of the others. This is what schaeffers had pioneered with and is in most all of thier lubricants from oils, greases, ogls,and even hyd fluids. This one thing is an exceptional additive that really makes a strong difference in protection.

    In the case of gear lubes, I don't know for sure but I believe Redlines as amsoil wont climb but rely's on the splash system. when oil is in the bottom of the pumpkin, the ring gear has to splash the oil, and when you first start to move the gears can't splash until you start to move at a higher speed. One of the reasons big trucks rearends have more casulties than automotive.
    schaeffers put a creep additive in so it will climb.

    Here is a little experiment to try... put your gear lube in a small bowl and take a manual egg beater and put it in striaght up like your going to beat eggs. when you turn the beater does you lube climb up or does it push away? in schaeffer case, it will climb all the way up to the handles where every one elses i have tried that with pushes away. this is one part of how a lube works aside from the ep additives and other parts.

    If your doesn't climb, go get some lucas additive and put it in and watch how it affects it. That is a bright stock which will cause it to climb.

    It is really amazing to me how the little things about lubricants can add up to making a great oil, and in this case of the gearlube, creep,antiwear,ep additives can make a big difference in how it works.

    have a good day guys.
    bob in jville.
  • peter78peter78 Member Posts: 284
    I know their is a lot of information on this site and it can get confusing. One good post (#3006) by "loubapache" talked about how Mobil One is still has the same in pour points. He posted a web site with a article called "Motor Oil Primer" by Ed Hackett. In the article it said: "The synthetics offer the only truly significant differences, due to their

    superior high temperature oxidation resistance, high film strength, very

    low tendency to form deposits, stable viscosity base, and low temperature

    flow characteristics. Synthetics are superior lubricants compared to

    traditional petroleum oils. You will have to decide if their high cost is

    justified in your application."


    In the article the specs of 5W-30 Amsoil, Red Line and yes even Mobil One looked good to me.


    http://www.eskimo.com/~dalus/bmw/all/misc/all_oilfaq.html

  • bobistheoilguybobistheoilguy Member Posts: 270
    about my statement....

    In response to bror's comment about extreme levels of protection...with moly, I was reffering to thier non api oil since it is a known fact that thier xl7500 series meets api and would not have any higher levels of protection than any other standard oils. So, I WAS reffering to thier non api oil since this is the one touted as thier best oil. There is no argument that they carry 3 oils certified.

    armtdm... Redline is not api certified because of the heavy moly but because of the heavy use of zddp (like amsoil). The moly has no effect on the standard astm tests used for the certification.

    Another point is the cost of certification is very inexpensive (less than 900.00). It is the actual tests that costs so much. Because of that alot of companies opt not to have them tested therfore no certification. That said, how can they say they meet(or exceed) api specs since they don't have the tests done? I could mix some oil together and bottle it, tell you it exceeds the api specs, and there is no way for the avg person to know otherwise. case in point, look at all these oil additives out there. thier tests are done in cars on the track or personal friends. obviously amsoil does do atleast some oil analysis.

    I totally agree it is ashame they use such marketing tactics. That is one of my biggest problems with them. I try not to hammer thier oil as far as quality but thier way of mis leading people into believing all of thier propaganda. I just want people to know what consiquences they will have if they follow amsoils advice on extended drains and such. I strongly believe you cannot just throw that oil in and go 25k miles on any oil with out first doing a purge. Then after that there should be a oil analysis program in place when extending. The biggest problem is they don't advise customers on how to properly extend drains and thereby some people pay for it. I have had people say "your company wont do 25k drains but amsoil will so yours isn't as good." my response is we don't encourage anyone to extend blindly but we will extend. we have people doing 10-30,000 mile drains but only using analysis and usually has to be steped up not just put it in and go that far. There is far too many variables for each person to just blanket extended drains at a set milage no matter what as alot of you do know. This is one of the things that gets my goat and why I try so hard to help people understand before they run into serious problems.

    One other point I want to mention is Why do you think redlines gear oil is so good... Because they use the moly. The moly cannot be squeezed out between the gear teeth therefore it reduces the friction and will increase milage. Most all gear lubes use heavy amounts of zddp and that's why you don't see much advantage with amsoil vs some of the others. This is what schaeffers had pioneered with and is in most all of thier lubricants from oils, greases, ogls,and even hyd fluids. This one thing is an exceptional additive that really makes a strong difference in protection.

    In the case of gear lubes, I don't know for sure but I believe Redlines as amsoil wont climb but rely's on the splash system. when oil is in the bottom of the pumpkin, the ring gear has to splash the oil, and when you first start to move the gears can't splash until you start to move at a higher speed. One of the reasons big trucks rearends have more casulties than automotive.
    schaeffers put a creep additive in so it will climb.

    Here is a little experiment to try... put your gear lube in a small bowl and take a manual egg beater and put it in striaght up like your going to beat eggs. when you turn the beater does you lube climb up or does it push away? in schaeffer case, it will climb all the way up to the handles where every one elses i have tried that with pushes away. this is one part of how a lube works aside from the ep additives and other parts.

    If your doesn't climb, go get some lucas additive and put it in and watch how it affects it. That is a bright stock which will cause it to climb.

    It is really amazing to me how the little things about lubricants can add up to making a great oil, and in this case of the gearlube, creep,antiwear,ep additives can make a big difference in how it works.

    have a good day guys.
    bob in jville.
  • adc100adc100 Member Posts: 1,521
    I asked them why their pour point temps went up. I did not have a lot of confidence in the information, even though I talked to their Lube Engineering dept. (Not the 1-800-askmobil #)The guy didn't seem to know anything about it. He did assure me that it had to do with a difference in the additive. I specifically asked him if there was any hydroprocessed oil in there or if the amount of "carrier" oil increased. He said "absolutely not". But again he didn't seem to know about the increase in pour points. FWIW.
  • armtdmarmtdm Member Posts: 2,057
    As you know, I go from 5000 to 12,000 mile oil change intervals on my oil (beyond 12,000 I just don't like the analysis) but because I rarely believe any hype on a product I approach it with skepticism and analysis. So, as Bob recommends as to the process to establish an oil change interval I followed that process many years ago and still do with new cars that come along. I started out with 3000 mile changes and gradually over several years felt comfortable going to a max of 12,000 miles in one case. Highest I have ever gone was 15,000 and did not like results. However, in 5 cars my intervals all vary depending on usage. 1 at 5000 miles (twin turbo) or one year whichever comes first, 2 at 7,500 (7-9 months), 1 at 12,000 with filter at 6 months (about every 10 months) and 1 once a year with filter at 6 months (8-10,000 miles/yr ave). All changed at least once a year.

    Also, 99.9% of driving public drives 15,000 miles or less per year so extended drains are sort of meaningless as all oil manufacturers state to change oil at least once a year regardless of mileage. All use a non API certified oil. 4 use 10W30 and 1 a 0W30
  • brorjacebrorjace Member Posts: 588
    Bob, you know that I know that all oil producers use some ZDDP, but the levels have dropped off significantly with the move to SJ oils. That's why I specifically used the word "potent".

    Schaeffer Oil sounds like a good oil at a good price ... but if you are not in Florida or the greater SouthEastern US, you are not likely to run across this stuff. It seems to be a regional brand. I'm sure there are other brands that fall into the same category. Amalie? Wolf's Head? Kendall? CAM2? I'm not sure about those but they don't seem to be as widespread as Mobil, Valvoline, Pennzoil, QS, etc ...

    Royal Purple? I think this stuff is pseudo snake oil heavy on hype (and purple dye) and low on substance. Their site alone should convince you of that. I remember talking to one guy who used their gear oil in his Subaru. He couldn't believe the racket that the tranny made after the change. Usually people try to convince themselves that the switch to a new 'special' oil was a GOOD thing. In this case, it was noticeably worse and he switched immediately to something else to get rid of the noise and the wear in the gear box that was inevitably occurring. I'd only use Royal Purple in a lawn mower ... and a really old one at that. Ick!

    I don't know nuttin' about Torco. I rarely see the stuff and have never talked to anyone who uses it.

    If you KNOW the base oil of a given brand is very good, I don't think API certification means much. I can't see the Group V polyol ester stocks of Red Line, for example, failing to meet the volatility and anti-oxidation limits of the new SL standard. Plus, if API wants to disqualify an oil because it has TOO MUCH of a good thing like ZDDP or moly, well, shame on them. If these clowns wanted to REALLY make themselves useful, they should come up with a meaningful industry standard for the term "synthetic".

    There are synthetic oil companies with good reputations out there and I'd trust them when they say their oils meet API specs even if they only do their own testing, doughnut be damned. >;^)

    jofficer, I think everyone has to make their own judgment on that issue. If I were to buy a new car tomorrow, I'd use the required SL grade of 5W20 or 5W30 while the car was in warranty period, follow the extreme service schedule and if I wanted to use a synthetic, I'd pick one that I knew was actually special and capable of significantly greater protection, not merely one that is 10-20% more stable at double or triple the price.

    Frequently changing brands (on a whim) is not really recommended but the chances that you'll get into trouble doing this are very remote ... and getting more so as oils are becoming more uniform in the face of stricter standards (SL and what will follow).

    Peter78, I like Hackett's article a lot but the info (specs) on it are dated by a decade or more. Don't swear by them. All of those oils have been reformulated 2-3+ times since then.

    Bob, I'll have to get a cheap egg beater and whip up the Red Line MTL I just bought. >:^)

    --- Bror Jace
  • fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    'If these clowns wanted to REALLY make themselves useful, they should come up with a meaningful industry standard for the term "synthetic".'
    How true but un-do-able that statement is! None of the current holders of the "right" to call their petroleum imitator products synthetic is going to acquiesce to a demand to cease and desist. It might be better to develop a new "sub-category" to the synthetic class, and make that the home of the real stuff.
  • bobistheoilguybobistheoilguy Member Posts: 270
    Schaeffers has reps covering all across the U.S. and canada, not just FL. They just don't "retail" like conventional oils. The company has this thing about doing "belly to belly selling" like from the old days so that each client gets the proper attention deserving them. I guess that's another one of the reasons I like them.

    I'd be interested in seeing how the Redline gear lube does on that. Please let me know.

    bob
  • bobistheoilguybobistheoilguy Member Posts: 270
    Aside from that article being outdated, You need to get a better article to read. That artilce reads amsoil all over it and there is at least 8 things to look at in the way of conventional testing.


    All that article does is hype up the more importaint parts of amsoils oil and misses other issues. Might I suggest that you order from IOM a copy of the actual field oils that was tested by an independant lab that is not affiliated with any one oil company. They provide you actual astm numbers with 8 basic things to compare against. I have found it to be quite interesting myself and it really opened my eyes to some interesting points.


     Here is thier web site if you want to see what thier tests sheets look like.


    http://www.engineoilinfo.com/

  • peter78peter78 Member Posts: 284
    Thank you for the information on that old article. By the way, I like your web site, very informative.
  • bobistheoilguybobistheoilguy Member Posts: 270
  • brorjacebrorjace Member Posts: 588
    Bob, it just so happens I talked to a racer today who said he switched from Redline Gear oils to Synergen because he was wearing out his trannies and rear-ends too quickly. The car was a Ralt formula racer.

    I looked at Synergen's site (which isn't terribly informative) and they cite their oil's "climbing" ability. That might make the difference right there as long as synergen used moly and a decent base oil in their gear oil.

    I'm not a fan of the person-to-person sales situation. I find the charming (Clintonesque) reps a little off-putting. I did notice, though, that all their racing customers seemed to be circle-track guys from Florida ... which is where you say you live.

    Oh, and I was in a store today and I looked at the back of a bottle of SL class Mobil 1 (5W30 & 10W30) and I saw the familiar bullet points but they omiited the one bragging about their oil being a "low-phosphorous" formula.

    Hehe, I wonder why? >;^D

    --- Bror Jace
  • longo32longo32 Member Posts: 81
    " WE HAVE THE SPECIAL S/C OIL MADE JUST FOR EATON INC.
    SUPERCHARGERS. YOU WILL NEED 8OZ.OF OIL FOR YOUR 1997 S/C.
    YOUR GM DEALER ALSO SELLS THIS OIL
    ,WE SELL THE 8 OZ. BOTTLE FOR $30.00."

    I promised to post the reply from The Eaton Rep in California, regarding the type, and amount of oil I need to service the Supercharger unit in my 97 Buick Park AVE. Ultra.
    In former posts, it has been suggested that a" 5-30 Synthetic " would do.
    Now I know that Redline, Amsoil and others are at least double the price of Dino Lubes but" 8 OZ. for $30.00?"
    Anyone know whats in THIS stuff?
  • thewolverinethewolverine Member Posts: 111
    Really enjoy the posts here but sometimes have a hard time keeping up.

    Simple question: SL vs. SJ - what's the difference and how does it apply to the Mobil 1 that I use?
  • brorjacebrorjace Member Posts: 588
    longo32, yes, what a rip-off. What does a typical GM Goodwrench dealership sell the oil for?

    wolverine, you need to scroll back 30-40 posts and read that article adc100 posted a link to. It describes SJ vs. SL in educated layman's terms.

    As for Mobil 1, one of their techs (rightly or wrongly) told someone on this board that they had to improve the formulation to pass those standards.

    --- Bror Jace
  • adc100adc100 Member Posts: 1,521
    The new spec enhances oil performance in three areas:


    Fuel Economy

    Emissions

    Extended Drain Performance


    I doubt that the Mobil 1 with the new spec is a whole lot better. I'm not throwing away my old Mobil.


    Here is the link in pdf format:

    http://www.tosco.com/internet_pub/repository/lubes/44_tn3_4.pdf

  • bobistheoilguybobistheoilguy Member Posts: 270
    I'm really sorry you don't have anyone from up north that knows how to race like these boys down south.. JUST KIDD'n..

    All these guys are from up north... Atleast from where i'm from I'd consider them north.

    Glenn Allen
    Kinnie Baugh
    Kevin Cradler
    Randy Donohue
    Sonny Haerr
    Tim Haerr
    Keith McDine
    Randy Mougey
    Jeff Morris
    Matthew "Spanks" Overbeck
    Mike Stacy
    Dave Renner
    John "Weasel" Rhoades
    Tony Traficant

    if you follow my racing link out and on the bottom of one page is a selection for drivers and each one has thier own web page.

    bob
  • ywilsonywilson Member Posts: 135
    What is your opinion of it? I have been using it myself for awhile. I was in the dealership (Ford) the other day I was and they use thier products. I also saw it in Dodge dealerships and my mechanic swears by it. I have been using it in the oil on one of my trucks and it seems to do what the company says it will by keeping any carbon, etc.. buildup out of my engine.
  • bobistheoilguybobistheoilguy Member Posts: 270
    what kinda of oil he and all these dealers use that they feel they have to add an additive to it. Sounds kinda like these quick lube centers just trying to sell something else to the unsuspecting consumer. Another one of those "makes me feel good" products.
  • brorjacebrorjace Member Posts: 588
    Re: Gear oils and climbing lubes, I got a more in-depth answer from that Formula Toyota (Atlantic?) racer. Here are some excerpts from what he told me:

    "I'm a believer in results, and was tired of buying $1500 ring and pinions. One day I was whining to a fellow racer in Phoenix about how poorly our gearbox has holding up with Red Line, and he suggested Synergyn's Syngear, saying that he had used it with fantastic results at a big vintage race at Road Atlanta. I bought some and have been happy ever since."

    "There could be some 'Bright Stock' in Syngear, I honestly don't know. One thing I always noticed about Red Line gear oil, though, is that it
    ran like water after a stout track session. And it didn't seem to have any 'cling' to keep it on the gears, which led me to question its suitability for use in the Staffs gearbox on our Ralt.

    The Staffs is a Formula 3 style gearbox, and as such, is equipped with very narrow gear faces. The pressures seen in this type gearbox in a
    1350 pound, full ground effects race car with 240 hp are simply incredible, and it was common to throw away gear sets worth several hundred dollars after just a few track sessions. Ring and pinions were thrown away every few hundred miles, even though the Staffs is a full pressure box with a spray nozzle aimed at the R&P intersection as well as a fully pressurized lay shaft. Replacing the R&P wasn't just preventive, they were chewed up with bad galling on nearly every face!

    After switching to Syngear, I've run R&P's over 1000 miles with no galling, and even second gear goes a full season. What can I say? Maybe the Syngear does have a bit more drag - it certainly appears thicker after a track session, but it works where it counts.

    BTW, I'm not affiliated with Synergyn in any way, other than as a satisfied customer. They wouldn't even give me any sponsorship, the
    tightwads... ;) And I'm not trying to push Synergyn's products on anybody - I'm just answering Bror's questions. In fact, I turned
    Synergyn down when they asked me to try a couple other product lines of theirs, tripod/CV grease and qualifying engine oil. I stick with
    Red Line's tripod/CV grease because I've never had a bit of trouble in this area. And I'm not going to take a chance with our $30,000 engine."


    Interesting, eh?

    --- Bror Jace
  • thewolverinethewolverine Member Posts: 111
    Got it - Thanks!
  • longo32longo32 Member Posts: 81
    After recovering form the shock of the "We sell the 8 oz. bottle for $30.00" message
    from Magnuson products in California, the local GM parts counter has the 'Special GM oil in 4 oz. bottles for about $2.95! Everyone insists that "you can't change out the oil" Even the Tech that I talked to who was actually working on a blown Eaton Supercharger at the time...HIS OWN! Same problem..the front bearings went. the rear bearings are sealed in those units, and the front ones run in the 8 oz factory fill, synthetic (mystery) oil bath. For the record, (according to the GM folks, these units run "forever") As we all learn tho,, as in everything in life, and under the hood, there are always exceptions to every rule. As for me, tomorrow I am going to be out there with a turkey baster with a piece of tubing down that little fill hole, sucking out as much of that old oil as I can get, (complete with any bearing debris), and replacing it. For the 8 oz of new oil and the price of a Wallmart turkey baster, I might just get the last laugh on this one.
  • bobistheoilguybobistheoilguy Member Posts: 270
    I'm not sure if it's bright stock or not. That is what the lucas addtive is. Not that it is a concern... He has his results as schaeffers does thiers. As for it looking thicker, yes It does but the interesting things is that our creep addtive blends down at about 130 degrees so as to decrease drag on the oil as it warms up. Only while the gear lube is cool will it creep. Kinda of interesting how this stuff works.

    bob
  • yurakmyurakm Member Posts: 1,345
  • alcanalcan Member Posts: 2,550
    longo: I'm surprised your manual didn't specify which oil to use in your supercharger. I posted the info directly from my 1996 G Platform Aurora/Riviera factory service manual, book 1 of 2, page 6G-2: "NOTICE: Do Not use petroleum based oil. Use only GM P/N 12345982 synthetic oil or equivalent 5W-30 synthetic oil. Failure to do so may cause supercharger failure."
  • adc100adc100 Member Posts: 1,521
    I noticed that the pumping temperature for both the old(SJ) Mobil 1 is the same as the new (SL). This information is on the back of the container, which is likely correct. That explains why Mobil engineers that I talked to could not figure out where I was coming from. I suspect that the only thing that changed with Mobil is the additive package.
  • fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    Maybe if you'd mentioned some of their competitors in your conversation, they'd have treated you more cordially! (:oÞ
  • longo32longo32 Member Posts: 81
    Thanks 'alcan and yurakm' for the info...I have had the local GM parts counters trying to find out just what GM means by saying "an equivalent synthetic 5-30" The problem is the GM factory fill has no equivalency. NoSpecs' or ratings on the GM lube, so who knows what would cross over in an aftermarket Synthetic. What ever they use, it does the job in most cases, however there is a big enough re-build business in replacing these very expensive Eaton Superchargers to make one wonder if what they are putting in there for a factory fill, couldn't be improved on by someone with a technical testing of the oil to see just what's flying around in that sealed case. Or perhaps it's not the oils fault, but just another, basic bad design that doesn't allow for a -periodic, drain and fill to get rid of any contaminates from bearing, and gear wear. (wouldn't be the first time some Company "consultant" decided not to put in a drain plug, to save 25 cents a unit, and then get a nice, easy money $2000.00 re-build job after the warranty was up)
  • loubapacheloubapache Member Posts: 30
    Check it again.

    The SJ bottle says Pump.

    The SL bottle says Pour.

    They show the same temp but they measure different things. The pour point of an oil is lower than the pumping limit. That means the SL has a higher pour point and pumping limit than the SJ.
  • longo32longo32 Member Posts: 81
    Today was "D" day for that Eaton Supercharger unit on my GM 3.8 V6, and from what I found in it I would strongly suggest anyone else with one, to get out the tools and go at it. You will need the proper ' Alan Wrench' to get the fill plug out of the unit, and a syringe and a 4 or 5" hose of some sort that fits the syringe. Don't take the plug out if the engine is hot, it could have pressure in the unit and spray hot oil everywhere... including you.
    The 7oz of oil that I sucked out of mine (with 48,000 miles on it) was almost black, had metal debris in it, and stunk to high heaven!

    I let the dirty oil settle in a clean glass container and it didn't take long for the metal particles to start to slowly settle out and become visible, in the bottom. When I wiped out the container, the clean white rag was grey from the filings. What a disgusting, vile smelling mess! If you are running a super charged engine, and believe GM's recommendation that these units "Never have to be serviced, just topped up",Good Luck!
  • fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    ...perfect case for Mityvac!
    I would sincerely recommend that any home-garage mechanic get, keep, and maintain at least one if not both of the following Mityvac items:
    P/N 7200 Fluid Evacuator
    P/N 6810 Automotive Servicing Pump
    A rubber hose and a large kitchen syringe is really doing it the hard way. The numbers above are subject to change over time, but the timeless items are prized possessions once you have them at hand. If you have a little time to spare waiting for delivery, you might find these available from J. C. Whitney-- I did.
  • brorjacebrorjace Member Posts: 588
    Bob, Can you name some other additives that might the 'climbing' action in those gear oils? I can't see them using a STP-like polymer as it would shear down quickly. You said that Scheffer's used Bright Stock? Any other possibilites that you know of?

    I'm gonna keep tabs on that guy and see how he does this season. I might even see him on Speedvision at the Valvoline Run-Offs in September at Mid-Ohio race course. >;^)

    I like the way he thought highly of Red Line products in general ... but thought he had found better products for certain applications. Sounds fair and objective.

    longo32, what is the job of that oil in the superchargers? Just to lubricate the bearings? Do any byproducts of combustion get into the oil. If you are not worried about contaminents, I'd use one of Redline's racing formulas ... either their straight 20 or 30 weight racing oils. These are actually fairly thin and act like multi-vis oils despite being rated as straight weights.

    --- Bror Jace
  • rayfbairdrayfbaird Member Posts: 183
    Please, the standards are soooo different that it's not a surprise that recertiication would be needed. The NOAK Volitility alone is reduced from about 17 to 10 percent. It's a whole new set of standards.

    Except that ZDDP remained the same. That was already changed with SJ.
  • longo32longo32 Member Posts: 81
    Bror Jace, to answer your question about the purpose of the "oil in the supercharger"....the 'nose section that includes the drive pulley has a bearing that is lubed by the action of the spinning gears running in a little 8 oz reservoir of GM factory , fillit and forget it oil. The actual supercharger vanes are running like 2 large inter connected screws, housed in a sealed compartment, and never actually touch, so wear, there, is not the problem, nor is the sealed bearing on the back end of the unit.
    The front section, tho, can go South' for a couple of reasons...natural galling of the drive gears, creating metal fileings in the oil, that in turn, get into the pulley bearings and eat them up. The other feature of this unit is the heat that builds up in the sealed gear housing..the oil gets boiling hot during operation. As everyone on this site knows, bad things start to happen to good oil under severe heat. All this is manageable IF the oil is clean, good quality, and up to the proper level. My quest for some straight answers on changing out the oil and replacing it, has met with "these units are not meant to be serviced, just topped up" And indeed, if you look at them, they certainly were not DESIGNED to be serviced. But once you go to all the trouble of rigging up your own little drain tool and sucking out the oil, you would see that it should be serviced, and probably every 30,000 miles (or less)! If the unit is going to get a noisy front bearing, then the fix is an expensive one at the dealerships. After a $2000 fix, you drive away from the dealership with the same inherent problem you had with the first one...you are told NOT to change out the lube, just top it off. From the dirty, smelly, polluted lube that I got out of mine today, I am urging anyone with a supercharger to get that old unfiltered, filthy oil OUT of there, and do it sooner, rather than later.
  • yurakmyurakm Member Posts: 1,345
    Thank you!

    I already reported to my wife, that we must replace the oil in future. Currently have 16-17k miles on our Regal.

    By the way, why it costs $2000 to repair the part?

    The Magnuson nose costs only about $300 with shipping.

    http://www.grandprixstore.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=GPS&Product_Code=202&Category_Code=004

    Do-yourself mechanic can replace it in about 1.5-2 hours, according to the following link:

    http://www.gp-owners.com/owners/wydride/pulley9.html

    http://www.gp-owners.com/owners/wydride/pulley.html

    At current labor rate, it sums up to about $500.

    Any case, $5.50 of oil every 30k miles will cost substantially less.
  • alcanalcan Member Posts: 2,550
    The drive gears are manufactured from powdered metal. Gear wear generates the metallic grit which contaminates and eventually damages the nose drive bearings. Equally important, the gears also time the teflon coated helical rotors, preventing them from contacting each other. If there's excessive wear on the gears, the rotors definitely WILL contact each other, wearing the tips of their lobes. Particles from the rotors are then pumped into the engine's cylinders along with the compressed air.

    Another quote from my factory manual, in bold type:
    "CAUTION: Do Not remove the oil plug when the engine is warm. The engine should be cool to the touch. Approximately 2-3 hours after running. Removing the oil plug at warm engine temperatures can cause hot oil to overflow. This could result in oil loss and possible personal injury."
  • bobistheoilguybobistheoilguy Member Posts: 270
    I have no idea what other things are used for the creep. I don't know what Schaeffers uses, just know how it acts.

    I know that brightstock carries no antiwear properties and does not offer anymore wear protection, but increases the clinging of the oil/lubricant. being a petroleum base lubricant it has no problem mixing and this is what lucas uses in thier product. As for STP or Schaeffers, no idea. (it could very well be bright stock as far as I know).

    I do know that STP uses zddp as an increase additive for antiwear properties.

    I too agree, Redline is an excellent product but feel it has some draw backs. This is one of the reasons I like the Schaeffers, They thought it through and saw the weak areas and came up with some solutions. Take thier grease for example, ever see a boat trailer on the side of the road missing a wheel? yeah, guy didn't grease it... not always true.. they were using the standard lithium complex grease.

    Question, If i was to come to you and try and sell you some soap to put into your bearings what would you tell me? GO AWAY? well my friend, Lithium is a soap complex also used in your color bar deoderant soaps. what does soap do when mixed with water? yep, it emulsifies and washes away. when the complex washes away, nothing is there to how the oil so the oil goes away. This is why the grease turns milky when exposed to water. imagine that, that milky looking grease, is a combination of soap and water being held in your metal bearings and eating away causing the bearings to pit and even rust if left long enough.

    try this experiment, go to your garage, get your best grease out, put a dab in the palm of your hand and then put water on it. with your other hand take your index finger and mix the water with the grease. you'll find it to start milking up and breaking down right there in front of you.

    I even saw a moreys grease that said waterproof and it even milked up.

    Schaeffers on the other hand, uses a different complex that wont mix in any way and of course you guessed it, they have moly in thiers as well.

    end of class.
    bob
  • longo32longo32 Member Posts: 81
    Yurkam' Wondered why the high cost of supercharger re builds, if all you need is a new 'nose cone' unit for $300.00.
    As 'alcan' walked us through the rest of the problems, you will notice that the diagnosis STARTS with the nose cone and front bearing noise, but by now this is just a symptom of the carnage from the gears wearing out and contaminating the oil, turning it into a grinding compound.
    So, for $300.00 bucks you don't get all the gears that are now wearing out, or the vanes that might be damaged, or the rear sealed bearing that might now be running rough. 8 oz of scalding hot oil churning in that Hellish environment has a tough job to do
    Under all those RPM's and gear friction, it's no wonder GM doesn't want you touching the filler plug on the supercharger after it's been running. The boiling oil is probably close to vapor form by now and taking the plug out would be like popping off your radiator cap on a summer trip to Phoenix. Still, the system provides an incredible amount of power and economy for the little V6. All I am saying is, don't believe GM, that 8 Oz of factory fill oil is going to hold up under these horrific conditions for the life of the car. The mess that I sucked out of mine yesterday looked like a sample from the Tar-Pits, and stunk like a Texas road Kill.
  • brorjacebrorjace Member Posts: 588
    longo32, and people wonder why I second guess the factory recommendations on so many things. :rolleyes:


    So what kind of lube are you going to use?


    <Bob>, I don't use too much grease excpet in my garden tractor's spindles. My Civic is about due for CV joints and axles but I'll have a shop do that whole job and they'll use whatever they'll use.


    Stan the Racer said he was very happy with Red Line's grease. I know a friend of mine who has some of this and I might ask him if he could whip some up into a frothy meringue. >;^)


    I do have SOME "water-proof" grease that is a clear-greenish color and is REALLY thick. I might try playing with it on a day when I don't mind getting a little sticky.


    Yes, I knew that most greases had soap in them ... which I always thought was a bit weird. Why not use a really thick petroleum product or even a thickened polymer? Oh well ...


    Hey, I just changed the MTL in my Honda. Does Schaeffer make a syncromesh transmission oil for manual trannies?


    Oh, in case anyone cares, the synergen site is:


    http://www.synergynracing.com/


    and Stan the Racer has some pictures of his car on this site. Look for him at the Valvoline Run-Offs in September.


    http://home.earthlink.net/~richpeople/


    rayfbaird, since the "conventional" oils reformulated using more hydrocrakced oils and/or possibly some synthetics (PAO or esters) to meet the SL standards, why wouldn't a 100% synthetic formula be able to meet this standard as it was? I just don't get it.


    --- Bror Jace

  • yurakmyurakm Member Posts: 1,345
    Yes, after reading the Alcan's explanation, I understood what happens after the gears wear out.

    Concerning your report about the poor state of the used oil you extracted from SC:

    I consider it directly applicable to my 2000 Regal. I shared immediately the info with my wife. Very useful information for our saving account:-). Additionally, I posted a link to your report on the Regal board.

    Thank you again for the input.

    Now I wonder, when to change the oil. At 17k miles it looks a bit early; probably I will wait till 20k.
  • adc100adc100 Member Posts: 1,521
    Exxon Unirex N2 grease is considered the gold standard by many in the industry. This grease (even though it is not a synthetic) is extremely water proof, functions in very high temperature, and outperforms many EP greases(even though it is not EP) in the 4 Ball. Its probably the most respected grease for severe applications around.

    I use it in my Toyota 4WD. Toyota calls for some of the drive train lubes to be Moly based and other's to be a different type of grease. They all get the Unirex. 75K-noproblems. Oh -it works very well in boat trailers. You will have to buy it ad an industrial supply place or jobber.
  • bobistheoilguybobistheoilguy Member Posts: 270
    Although this grease is a good grease, if that grease has a lithium complex, it is not water proof. Although it appears to be resistive, you'll find it will absorb water and hold it until it gets saturated.

    I have seen some of these complexes using a high amount of thickner or tac often mistaken as a complex which(the complex not the tac) actual holds the base oil. Fact is, some are so heavy with this tac that it looks like bubble gum. You see reps out there with a spring loaded hammer demonstrating the tac. After the complex gets washed out, you end up with nothing left but this bubble gum and no oil.

    Moly will not do any good either if the complex is milked away since that is what holds the componets like moly and the oil of the grease together. As you know, this(moly) is a solid style moly and helps reduce heat and reduces wear in the extreme pressures. zinc is also used for this purpose as a normal ep grease but moly is a step up from zinc. Moly helps provide a higher resistance to heat along with a higher base oil will tend to make it a high temp grease.


    Reversibilty is another key factor where you'll find when the grease is heated to such a point that you'll find the complex seperated and wax buildup on the outer part (like in the cap on wheel bearings) and the oil has deminished to near nothing. This part is very important in a quality grease.

    If this grease you are reffering to is actual water proof, it most likely is an aluminum complex or maybe a bentone. This type of complex is very unusual in most all stores. Like some top grade underarm deoderants with aluminum complexes, this will in no way absorb nor breakdown with water(salt or fresh water).

    I think valvoline makes an aluminum complex with moly and that would be a good one. I believe the cost is around 4-5.00 per tube as well.

    A grease like that valvoline and schaeffers, once put in, will not wash out and won't require relubrication for a long time. case inpoint, I have a big asphalt plant with two locations,they used 6 cases of grease every 2 months between the 2 locations. After the 2nd 2 months of using the aluminum grease, they still had 2 cases left. Now over 2 yrs of using this grease, they order once a year, 8 cases, and have experienced no bearing failures during the last 2 yrs.

    So aside from the lower failures, they have reduced grease consumption due to the fact it doesn't wash out at all, thus lower and less regreaseing required.

    bob

    ps, avg cost 2.61 a tube.
  • longo32longo32 Member Posts: 81
    Thanks for sharing your experience actually USING different products. So much info out there is anecdotal at best, vested interests at worst. When someone has some hands on results, and all the product hype is cut through, what we are left with is something we can, as they say, 'take to the bank.'
    Trying to find practical answers from Synthetic Motor oil info, is like wading off into an endless swamp. I think most of us here would just like to know this...what's the best oils and lubes, based on 'real experience'. But of course that will never happen, "Snake Oil Salesmen" are still alive and well out there, and some of them are now cruising the internet, looking for suckers.
    .... so we have to keep screening through the posts looking for the odd nugget of hard fact, based on actual use of these expensive products. Your experience with "cases" of grease each year add up to lifetimes of use by the average user.
    Since they started leaving out grease zerks on U-Joints and front end components years ago, most modern car owner wouldn't know one end of a grease gun from the other. About the only grease I now get to use, is on my garden tractors and other farm implements.
    Kinda miss those quiet times under my car looking for those little hidden grease zerks and giving them a few shots..
  • longo32longo32 Member Posts: 81
    Just found a site that is selling "The Motor Oil Bible"! Penned by a Michael Kaufman.
    It looks like he got all his chapter titles from these discussions.
    Anyone ever bought/borrowed,or read this thing?
    Would love to hear a review......
  • frulefrule Member Posts: 82
    If I went to Schaeffers grease in my Avalanche,would I need to remove the old lithium-based grease in some way?If so,how? Thanks,Fred.
  • bobistheoilguybobistheoilguy Member Posts: 270
    no fred you don't have to clean it out.the aluminum complex grease will overtake the lithium complex after a few applicatoins.

    You might check with napa and see if they have the valvoline grease with the moly and aluminum complex locally.
  • fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    What are the major factors of difference between these two greases? I need a new supply, and this discussion topic is very timely!
  • adc100adc100 Member Posts: 1,521
    I'll defer to the opinion of others, but the 3 environments to consider are temperatures, moisture, and very heavy loads. It's rare that one "all purpose" grease is good for all three environments. You really should get the grease suitable for the task you have. Perhaps you could specify your exact needs and probably Bob could advise you. I do know though that at a power generation facility we used Unirex- N2 for all applications except for heavily loaded worm gears which required an EP (MOLY) grease.
  • brorjacebrorjace Member Posts: 588
    All this talk of greases ... makes me wish I had a high-performance grease application. <:^(

    --- <b>Bror Jace
  • adc100adc100 Member Posts: 1,521
    http://www.exxon.com/exxon_lubes/tigerbytes/

    Go to Products - Grease - Check out Polyrex and Unirex
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