No, I didn't forget about that post, and you haven't one-uped anyone. Until someone posts analysis results for the SL dinos, we don't really know how much better syns are, if they're better at all. If you compare spec sheets, the Chevron compares very well with the syns. Whose to say its analysis results wouldn't be just as good as those of the syns?
Just called two different quicky lubes and asked what API spec their oil was. Neither one had a clue as to what I was talking about. I really wish 1) I had a lift or 2) my filter wasn't such a bear to get at flat on your back. I really hate going to those places. Went to Walmart once several years ago. Must have got the deluxe oil and filter change where they check everything and grease non-existant fittings. Anyway when I went to pick it up they said they had to add 1/2 qt. of ATF. Knowing the answer I still asked how they had checked it. i.e. engine at operating temp, shifter cycled through the full range a couple times with the engine running. I was livid. I marched across the service bay and down to their pit with the manager in my wake saying , "Sir you're not allowed on the floor" over and over again. Anyway I watched the guy drain an appropriate amount of ATF. I checked the dipstick myself and about a mile down the road and the level was right where it belonged. I check ATF regularly having eaten a couple of expensive tranny rebuilds over the years. Caveat emptor!!!!!!!
That article stated that SL's would more expensive to make than SJ's were. Are the oil companies just eating the extra cost, because the SL's are the same price as the SJ's were.
In the new Amsoil Action News (Rag) Alan Amatuzio (son of Pres) states " In order to obtain API certification and still remain cost competitive with the other oils sold at retail oil change outlets we had to change to Group III basestocks for the XL 7500 series of oil. To obtain API certification with our top tier basetocks would have priced our dealers out of the market. What crap as Amsoil was one of the first to condemn Castrol for their action. Further, they are reducing the price a whopping twenty cents a quart. Still way over $4.quart. This is totally rediculous. Profit comes first. Sad to see but just marketing crap from the Amatuzio family! They claim that the non API certified oils remain true synthetic
American and Japanese automakers have decided to delay adoption of GF-4, the next passenger car motor oil upgrade, according to the Independent Lubricant Manufacturers Association.
The association told members Monday that the International Lubricant Standardization and Approval Committee decided last week that it cannot develop the standard fast enough to have GF-4 oils commercially available by the fall of 2003. The standard, prescribed to protect emissions control systems required on model year 2004 cars, figured to be the biggest engine oil upgrade since the auto and oil industries wrote the Engine Oil Licensing and Certification System in 1993.
It was widely recognized, however, that the 30-month timeline for developing GF-4 was very aggressive, with some observers expressing skepticism that ILSAC could meet it. Lesser upgrades have taken up to seven years to complete.
A spokeswoman for ILSAC’s administrative umbrella, the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, refused to confirm or deny the report, which was e-mailed to members of the Independent Lubricant Manufacturers Association. ILSAC member representatives could not be reached for comment yesterday.
Jeff Leiter, legal counsel for the lubricant manufacturers association, said the delay was agreed to after a General Motors representative told an ILSAC meeting early last week that the committee’s timeline for GF-4 was not practical.
“He went into the meeting and told people that they needed a reality check,” Leiter said. “He said it was just not going to be possible to do GF-4 for the 2004 model year.” ILSAC members then held a conference call at the end of the week during which they agreed to delay the specification, he said.
ILMA officials said they did not know the specific reason for the delay and that ILSAC members plan to meet July 9 to set a new schedule and to draft a statement explaining their decision.
More than one significant obstacle for GF-4 has been identified . Perhaps the biggest challenge is the question of whether formulators can develop a motor oil that protects new emissions control devices (and meets other stated goals of improving gas mileage, offering better cold-temperature performance and lasting longer under high temperatures and high loads) while protecting engines in existing cars . Automakers have insisted that GF-4 be backward compatible. Oil and additive companies have said that may not be possible or practical .
Another challenge – development of a new test to measure oil oxidation and engine wear – was discussed at last week’s ILSAC meeting, according to Leiter. ILSAC had said it wanted to begin matrix testing of the GM-sponsored IIIG engine sequence test in August, but members are still working to identify funds and will not be able to start testing until fall or winter.
Leiter said it is difficult to say if a delay in implementation of GF-4 will benefit the lubricant industry. On the one hand, manufacturers might be relieved to have more time to prepare for such a large change. On the other, automakers have previously warned that they might abandon EOLCS and develop their own motor oil specifications if they believed the cooperative system could not meet their schedule.
Hey, they are a little outfit relative to the majors. They intend to make a living on reputation and have a right to try. Their products are certainly passable, and some folks will pay $4+ for products that majors are now selling for 25% of that.
That true they at least did tell their dealers that they downgraded. It will be interesting how they spin it to their customers though. I suppose they needed the extra money to pad Amatuzio's salary.
I use the stuff too,for past ten years. However, increasingly dissapointed in their marketing hype, association with Bosch (several inferior products IMHO including wiper blades and filters) and bottom line is all that matters it seems. Redline appears to be the only one now that not only talks the talk but walks the walk.
No, not AJ needing money, Amatuzios son probably had some stock options due and needed to increase profits. Thus, use cheaper base stock but only drop the price 20 cents/quart
You know, pricing theory is relatively simple. While there are standards that are used, there is only one pillar on which all pricing is based, i.e. charge what you can get. I have my own business and charge in what I and my customers would call "Wal-Mart" prices. That does not mean, however, I would not charge triple if I thought I could get away with it. I often tell my customers the same thing. Competition, more than any other factor dictates pricing. That is why public utilities had price regulations and controls, as they have no competition (we will see how deregulation works). Your choice to ignore over priced items is the only way to bring their prices down. Amsoil may or may not get this message.
And to think! Some years ago my wife and I had an Amzoil dealership. We used it as a source for getting product at dealer cost. As time passed in the 80's, we saw other brands of synthetic available. Eventually we just let the dealership slide away in favor of other products. The heighth of the curve was using Redline. That was followed by a gradual return to far less expensive petroleum based products of great quality. We now see the further rise of the petroleum oils into hydrocracking that attacks the throne of synthesis.
You don't need to wait and see how it (deregulation) is working. Just look at california. I worked in a utility for 33 years. When deregulation started we started laying off people, cutting back service and stopped building new plants. Liberal Californians are a little slow, but even they( except for Feinstein) are starting to get the big picture (Higher prices, blackouts, etc). Hang onto your hat-its working its way east in spite of the politicians claiming "we learned a valuable lesson in cali" They didn't learn-but I did. I have a generator as do many in cali-he-he. Oh-the other good thing about deregulation is that they downsized me and put me into retirement bliss.
Thanks for the important information. I've felt for a long time that getting out the new standard so quickly would not be beneficial for customers and vehicles. Too many things can go wrong. Take longer and get it right.
Also IMO the oil companies should be allowed more time to recover their research and qualification costs (they are quite high) for the SL first.
I predict that oil prices will sneak up over time. Or perhaps they are stocking up when crude prices are lower.
At least they admitted it. Most companies don't. Now the real question is are the base stocks being cheapened, or is the newer Class III hydrocracked that good? Only analysis will tell.
Does anyone have good information on synthetic hypoid, suitable for limited slip preferably? I faintly recollect that Delvac or some such may be available. I guess 80/85W-90 would suffice for most apps.
"When deregulation started we started laying off people, cutting back service and stopped building new plants." Well, isn't that true that not a single new plant (the TRUE reason IMHO for blackouts and higher prices) was built during 10 years PRIOR to deregulation due to the "enviromental" concerns?
has nothing to do with the above posts, tree-huggers, old power plants etc - and has everything to do with out-and-out manipulation of a marketplace aided by MIA public servants at FERC and the mentality of absolute greed at the Enrons of our electrical world holding us hostage.
See the $700 million Enron gave it's execs as farewells this last year and the $15k or so given to terminated employees?
It is finally coming out in the news what many Californians figured out during the "shortage" last year -
a. There's plenty of power available for California. And that's from within our own borders. But, when energy plants are taken off-line for "maintenance" double and triple the percentage taken off-line in the past years - and during the hottest summer months - something's going on well beyond the control of the state.
b. When companies like Perot Systems are hired to write the software to control energy allocations within the state under the new dereg plans - and then try and peddle a different version of the same software to the energy companies involved in the day-to-day bidding to "game" the system at a huge profit - well, that ain't a real shortage either. It's called manipulation.
I could go on and on since this is a popular topic in CA these days as the summer approaches again. But it's rather boring to write and, I suspect, to read.
In sum, there's plenty of power so come on over and visit CA this summer and spend lots of dollars. We'll keep the A/C on for ya.
Unfortunately I don't have any vehicles coming up for samples until the end of the year. Maybe I'll flag someone down in front of my house and pull a sample. These kits are really nice. Stick the tubing down the dipstick tube compress the accordian stile sample bottle a couple of times and thats it. Oh writing the the $27.10 check is the hardest part.
malachy72, jeffmust2, vadp: There is a real "reserve" shortage today in generation which is why prices spike during hot weather. There is greed in every industry, but the real problems which are yet to be solved will rear their ugly head: Over-regulation with permits (state, local, DEP)..goes on and on, Deregulation with pricing makes shelling out money for new plants unattractive-meaning no major coal fired plants have been built in 25 years-(30 for nukes-which don't polute), huge influx of immigrants (who don't come to the country with energy), short term fix of building gas fired plants (buy gas futures for the summer), more frequent downtime for aging power plants with more maintenance (also we also have only 3-5 percent reserve where 10 years ago we had 15% reserve, manipulation of distribution futures causing huge spikes in prices. Independent generators who were garanteed fixed rates higher than established utilities were able to charge. Many of them (who never generated) have been bought out-you paid for it=scamcity. I could go on and on and our politicians are clueless-They are too busy stuffing their pockets. Sit back and enjoy the wild ride. It takes 8-10 years (maybe more with our over regulation) to put a coal or nuclear plant on line.
Oh, I am getting close to checking my milage since I added one quart of 15W-50 SuperSyn when I replaced filters. According to the gas needle it appears OK but then again-I wouldn't expect a large change. Its probably my imaginationbut the vehicle seeems quieter on startup-very subjective.
My local Sam's Club raised its price on Mobil 1 cases from $21.99 to $23.39. This may be in anticipation of the new SuperSyn formula, or it may have nothing to do with the new formula-- currently, the store is still selling the old SJ Tri-Synthetic formula.
Murray's, an auto parts chain in my area, has bumped its Mobil 1 price from $4.69 in the SJ Tri-Synth days to $4.99 for the new SL SuperSyn.
Probably better additive package to stay well ahead of SL standards which are higher. Still PAO based. I would also think that the SuperSyn is more expensive to produce. (It is not hydroprocessed) We'll see how it pans out on next oil analysis. I'll reserve judgment. I'll now in a year if its better than Shaeffers Full Syn (at least for my vehicle).
A while back I bought a couple cases of Havoline 10w/30 (bottles with the older smaller size neck). They $.94 each so I had to go ahead and get'em. The label on back says it is SL, both in the text on the back and at the bottom where it shows the API service SL,SJ,SH and ILSAC gf-3/GF-2,,, ----but the API seal says API service SJ.------ I've also got some Havoline 10w/40 and 20w/50 out there where the labels are all correct, I guess the 10w/30 bottles were emergency printed by the new temp guy? Maybe he now works for Mobil1??? see ya
Thanks for the information. I have yet to have heard of manufacturer's (2002/2003 model year) specifying SL !!! Since I have manufacturer's specifiying SJ (Mobil One synthetic oil), I would have no problem using the SJ especially if it is at a sale price! As good as SL is reputed to be, it still lacks the test of time.
...but there isn't an oil made that's worth $5 a quart! I think some of these oil companies need to rethink these ridiculous prices they're putting on some of these oils. Of course it doesn't matter to me, I'm not buying them regardless, unless they come up with one you never have to change.
Bill peeling doesn't bother me when it is for Chevron or Havoline selling for under a buck a quart. Who makes good synthetic GL5 gear oil and at what price retail? I use Klotz in my Valkyrie hub, but now need something suited to Nissan "positraction."
I assume that GM makes one and their's is partially synthetic. I have heard so much good about RedLine Gear oils,that I'm going to drain all my Fluids (Punkins, Trans, Transfercase) in the Toyota 4WD and Replace. Please note post 4143 though above.
The cheapest place I havbe seen their products though is:
but Havoline is not necessarily Chevron. As I posted on the 'engine oil board', it's especially important to look at the labels where both brands are being sold. I believe the Equilon info was posted on Bob's board. I had 5 qts of Chevron in my basket at Wally's the other night, but put them back on the shelf as I would have preferred 10-30 to 10-40 and really won't need the oil for 2 months. Did not prevent me from buying 3 ST oil filters as I have experienced shortages of the sizes I use. BTW, I was talking to a guy buying super tech dino oil and mentioned the Chevron to him, but he said his car (Hyundai) took 5-30. He was disappointed they did not have his Fram filter in stock. I casually told him that the ST Filters were superior to Fram from what I have been reading, but he politely implied that he wanted his Fram. I can tell you that those "Pay me now, or pay me later" ads were some of the most effective and memorable campaigns any ad agency ever came up with!
Having heard on this board that ST filters are made by Champion Labs, they are certainly on my list as soon as my AC Delco and Toyota OEM filters have been used up.
Have been using the new 0-30 for about 15K mi in '98 Sienna (V6).Changing every 7.5K-no sludge now or ever (Mobil 1 15w-50 from the start, then 10w-30 later on). Due mostly commuting (50 mi daily).Sounds scary going in (like water), but no problems so far. Use Pure One Purolator filter (all along). At work, use 0-40 in M-B with intervals (determined by oil quality sensor) at about 10-11K mi. Too far for my personal taste. Mercedes seems fine by this - no problems.
I am convinced that Redline engine oil is the best synthetic on the market. I have never used their gear oil. I'll give it thought. I know I won't like the price! Thanks for the reminder on the brand.
I think I posted a response on the "slippery" thread that I have a couple cases of Chevron and a couple of Havoline, with labels that say Chevron Texaco, and no mention of Equilon at all. Now, don't forget good ol' Kmart. Wix makes a great filter, and Kmart sells 'em under house brand names-- Castrol and Penske.
....I haven't noticed any difference in oil consumption since switching to the Chevron SL. When I was using the SuperTech full syn, my car used about 3/4 of a quart in approx 1,500 - 2,000 miles. So far, it appears to be using roughly the same amount. Chevron claims a reduction in consumption, but I'm not seeing it. I plan to leave this oil in for 5K and then do an analysis. I don't know how accurate the analysis will be, considering at the current rate of consumption, I will have done about 1/2 of an oil change, since my car only holds 3 quarts of oil. Does Valvoline claim their Maxlife as a consumption reducer? I know it's supposed to recondition seals to stop, or slow down leaks, but I haven't heard if it's supposed to reduce consumption.
I just visited Valvoline's web site to read about their Maxlife oil. It did say that it reduces oil consumption, but it also said it only meets the old "GF-2" or "SJ" specification. Do any of you know if this is just outdated info, or if this oil actually doesn't meet the newer "SL" spec?
I have used Mobil 1 for 12 years in my cars, and am switching to Valvoline Synthetic. Mobil 1 is almost $5 a quart while Valvoline is under $4. As far as I can tell they are pretty equivalent, is this true?
What about Havoline synthetic - it is only $3.50, and the Wal-mart synthetic is only $3 (I imagine it is made by a major manuf. not sure who though) but they only have 10-30 and I prefer 5-30.
Comments
http://www.tosco.com/internet_pub/repository/lubes/44_tn3_4.pdf
Courtesy of Pat on Bob's board
Went to Walmart once several years ago. Must have got the deluxe oil and filter change where they check everything and grease non-existant fittings. Anyway when I went to pick it up they said they had to add 1/2 qt. of ATF. Knowing the answer I still asked how they had checked it. i.e. engine at operating temp, shifter cycled through the full range a couple times with the engine running. I was livid. I marched across the service bay and down to their pit with the manager in my wake saying , "Sir you're not allowed on the floor" over and over again. Anyway I watched the guy drain an appropriate amount of ATF. I checked the dipstick myself and about a mile down the road and the level was right where it belonged. I check ATF regularly having eaten a couple of expensive tranny rebuilds over the years.
Caveat emptor!!!!!!!
That's why I get the $11.94 Wal-Mart special. At least they used bottled, SL oil. What's in those bulk oil tanks anyway?
92 cents at Costco for Chevron SL. Am I missing something?
obtain API certification and still remain cost competitive with the other oils sold at retail oil
change outlets we had to change to Group III basestocks for the XL 7500 series of oil. To
obtain API certification with our top tier basetocks would have priced our dealers out of
the market. What crap as Amsoil was one of the first to condemn Castrol for their action. Further, they are reducing the price a whopping twenty cents a quart. Still way over $4.quart. This is totally rediculous. Profit comes first. Sad to see but just marketing crap from the Amatuzio family! They claim that the non API certified oils remain true synthetic
American and Japanese automakers have decided to delay adoption of GF-4, the next passenger car motor oil upgrade, according to the Independent Lubricant Manufacturers Association.
The association told members Monday that the International Lubricant Standardization and Approval Committee decided last week that it cannot develop the standard fast enough to have GF-4 oils commercially available by the fall of 2003. The standard, prescribed to protect emissions control systems required on model year 2004 cars, figured to be the biggest engine oil upgrade since the auto and oil industries wrote the Engine Oil Licensing and Certification System in 1993.
It was widely recognized, however, that the 30-month timeline for developing GF-4 was very aggressive, with some observers expressing skepticism that ILSAC could meet it. Lesser upgrades have taken up to seven years to complete.
A spokeswoman for ILSAC’s administrative umbrella, the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, refused to confirm or deny the report, which was e-mailed to members of the Independent Lubricant Manufacturers Association. ILSAC member representatives could not be reached for comment yesterday.
Jeff Leiter, legal counsel for the lubricant manufacturers association, said the delay was agreed to after a General Motors representative told an ILSAC meeting early last week that the committee’s timeline for GF-4 was not practical.
“He went into the meeting and told people that they needed a reality check,” Leiter said. “He said it was just not going to be possible to do GF-4 for the 2004 model year.” ILSAC members then held a conference call at the end of the week during which they agreed to delay the specification, he said.
ILMA officials said they did not know the specific reason for the delay and that ILSAC members plan to meet July 9 to set a new schedule and to draft a statement explaining their decision.
More than one significant obstacle for GF-4 has been identified . Perhaps the biggest challenge is the question of whether formulators can develop a motor oil that protects new emissions control devices (and meets other stated goals of improving gas mileage, offering better cold-temperature performance and lasting longer under high temperatures and high loads) while protecting engines in existing cars . Automakers have insisted that GF-4 be backward compatible. Oil and additive companies have said that may not be possible or practical .
Another challenge – development of a new test to measure oil oxidation and engine wear – was discussed at last week’s ILSAC meeting, according to Leiter. ILSAC had said it wanted to begin matrix testing of the GM-sponsored IIIG engine sequence test in August, but members are still working to identify funds and will not be able to start testing until fall or winter.
Leiter said it is difficult to say if a delay in implementation of GF-4 will benefit the lubricant industry. On the one hand, manufacturers might be relieved to have more time to prepare for such a large change. On the other, automakers have previously warned that they might abandon EOLCS and develop their own motor oil specifications if they believed the cooperative system could not meet their schedule.
By Tim Sullivan
I use the stuff too,for past ten years. However, increasingly dissapointed in their marketing hype, association with Bosch (several inferior products IMHO including wiper blades and filters) and bottom line is all that matters it seems. Redline appears to be the only one now that not only talks the talk but walks the walk.
No, not AJ needing money, Amatuzios son probably had some stock options due and needed to increase profits. Thus, use cheaper base stock but only drop the price 20 cents/quart
The fleecing of America!
Also IMO the oil companies should be allowed more time to recover their research and qualification costs (they are quite high) for the SL first.
I predict that oil prices will sneak up over time. Or perhaps they are stocking up when crude prices are lower.
Well, isn't that true that not a single new plant (the TRUE reason IMHO for blackouts and higher prices) was built during 10 years PRIOR to deregulation due to the "enviromental" concerns?
See the $700 million Enron gave it's execs as farewells this last year and the $15k or so given to terminated employees?
It is finally coming out in the news what many Californians figured out during the "shortage" last year -
a. There's plenty of power available for California. And that's from within our own borders. But, when energy plants are taken off-line for "maintenance" double and triple the percentage taken off-line in the past years - and during the hottest summer months - something's going on well beyond the control of the state.
b. When companies like Perot Systems are hired to write the software to control energy allocations within the state under the new dereg plans - and then try and peddle a different version of the same software to the energy companies involved in the day-to-day bidding to "game" the system at a huge profit - well, that ain't a real shortage either. It's called manipulation.
I could go on and on since this is a popular topic in CA these days as the summer approaches again. But it's rather boring to write and, I suspect, to read.
In sum, there's plenty of power so come on over and visit CA this summer and spend lots of dollars. We'll keep the A/C on for ya.
Then go home, as they say in Oregon.
malachy72, jeffmust2, vadp: There is a real "reserve" shortage today in generation which is why prices spike during hot weather. There is greed in every industry, but the real problems which are yet to be solved will rear their ugly head: Over-regulation with permits (state, local, DEP)..goes on and on, Deregulation with pricing makes shelling out money for new plants unattractive-meaning no major coal fired plants have been built in 25 years-(30 for nukes-which don't polute), huge influx of immigrants (who don't come to the country with energy), short term fix of building gas fired plants (buy gas futures for the summer), more frequent downtime for aging power plants with more maintenance (also we also have only 3-5 percent reserve where 10 years ago we had 15% reserve, manipulation of distribution futures causing huge spikes in prices. Independent generators who were garanteed fixed rates higher than established utilities were able to charge. Many of them (who never generated) have been bought out-you paid for it=scamcity. I could go on and on and our politicians are clueless-They are too busy stuffing their pockets. Sit back and enjoy the wild ride. It takes 8-10 years (maybe more with our over regulation) to put a coal or nuclear plant on line.
Oh, I am getting close to checking my milage since I added one quart of 15W-50 SuperSyn when I replaced filters. According to the gas needle it appears OK but then again-I wouldn't expect a large change. Its probably my imaginationbut the vehicle seeems quieter on startup-very subjective.
Murray's, an auto parts chain in my area, has bumped its Mobil 1 price from $4.69 in the SJ Tri-Synth days to $4.99 for the new SL SuperSyn.
Went back to replenish a few quarts. Now the same Tri Syn is $4.79.qt.
It was nice while it lasted.........
Were they SJ or SL rated Mobil One synthetic for 2.94 qt?
TB
They $.94 each so I had to go ahead and get'em.
The label on back says it is SL, both in the text on the back and at the bottom where it shows the API service SL,SJ,SH and ILSAC gf-3/GF-2,,,
----but the API seal says API service SJ.------
I've also got some Havoline 10w/40 and 20w/50 out there where the labels are all correct, I guess the 10w/30 bottles were emergency printed by the new temp guy? Maybe he now works for Mobil1???
see ya
Who makes good synthetic GL5 gear oil and at what price retail? I use Klotz in my Valkyrie hub, but now need something suited to Nissan "positraction."
The cheapest place I havbe seen their products though is:
http://www.manhonda.com/store/honda/index.cfm?level=35&CFID=768471&CFTOKEN=32379508
Having heard on this board that ST filters are made by Champion Labs, they are certainly on my list as soon as my AC Delco and Toyota OEM filters have been used up.
I think I posted a response on the "slippery" thread that I have a couple cases of Chevron and a couple of Havoline, with labels that say Chevron Texaco, and no mention of Equilon at all. Now, don't forget good ol' Kmart. Wix makes a great filter, and Kmart sells 'em under house brand names-- Castrol and Penske.
What about Havoline synthetic - it is only $3.50, and the Wal-mart synthetic is only $3 (I imagine it is made by a major manuf. not sure who though) but they only have 10-30 and I prefer 5-30.