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Comments
As to the "full-size" aspect of the required spare for beach use, why not just downsize one level to the size that will fit in the well? Perhaps go to the 60- or 65- series that matches the rotating diameter of the factory tires. That should get you off the sand and allow you to drive at any speed you like to the tire store.
Cheers,
WDB
The catch with downsizing is that narrow tires dig in the sand and won't perform as well. I imagine the Outback's 225s would be better than my 205s, despite my 0.2" ground clearance advantage.
Though the Forester is lighter.
Hmm, only one way to find out...
-juice
C'mon, just buy a Subie already! Do I hear 'VDC' in the near future? I think a stealth wagon would compliment your Benz quite nicely. :-)
Ken
As a matter of fact, last summer I saw on the Outer Banks some guy driving an old '60-vintage Oldsmobile wagon on the beach, set up exactly like that. The tires were so bald they looked like racing slicks. He seemed to do just fine.
Juice:
On the Outer Banks, (north of Corolla) you can drive all the way up to the Virgina state line. There are a couple of communities back there that are accessible only by 4x4 or boat. There are no paved roads. I went to check one of those communities out -- and almost got stuck. The sand was very soft, and I definitely needed low range to climb the dune access passageway. it got a bit dicey back there.
Bob
Bob
But, my next door neighbour will be soon be looking for a new wagon to replace her Honda CR-V. She complains that it is too underpowered and too noisy, especially when climbing up our hill with her friends in it. She wouldn't have bought it if she had a choice, but her husband got it for her. She has already expressed interest in the Subaru lineup, so perhaps I can steer her towards the '01 Outback H6. The bonus is that she travels back to HK quite frequently, so I often get to carsit for her for weeks at a time .
Drew
One similar added benefit of 4 wheel traction control on SUVs is that when taken off-road, there will be much less soil erosion because the tires won't break loose and kick up all of the soil or dirt. Land Rover and MB specifically mentioned this in their off-road product demos. The wheels require only about 1/4+ turn of slippage before the system kicks in.
I'm sorry if this is a stupid question, but what do you mean by "matches the rotating diameter"? A 215/60 fits in the well, so this sounds like a good plan, if I can figure out the right 215/60 to buy. As you can probably guess, I know nothing about tires and tire sizes. Thanks.
In these circumsatnces, you learn to dig yourself out fairly quickly. Given that this discussion starts from the fallibility of mini tyrres, I must admit a little prejudice. Some of the best techniquies for unsticking a car rely on using the spare wheel, whether as jack support, buried for winch attachment point in sand, soft support for the car sides as you progressively jack the other side or end of the car out of a too deep hole or as pot hole filler. In these circumstances, the larger the wheel/tyre, the happier I am. The mini tyre would not have been much use in many of the sticky situations i have found myself.
Cheers
Graham
I got a chuckle out of your story about the various other uses of the spare and your wife's opinion about digging out.
You got me thinking about the different colloquialisms of New England, UK (you're origin as I recall, and I think JP is from Scotland), Australia (you're current home), and Canada. I chuckled when I read the usage "closely settled" because it reminds of what I thought were odd signs in the Boston, Massachusetts area that read "THICKLY SETTLED", a term that conjures images of a lot of heavy people. When I hear the term "densely populated", used here, all I can think of is a town of not-so-brights. Sometimes I think it accurately describes some of the lawmakers we have in this town (Washington, DC).
Anyway, just my wicked poo-ah (poor) attempt at humor.
..Mike
..Mike
Drew: treading lightly with the VDC sounds fun. This may be offset by the extra weight, though. It'll be some 500-600 pounds heavier than the Forester.
Eugene: here's a nice tool to help calculate tire sizes:
http://powerdog.com/tiresize.cgi/
-juice
I'll venture out and admit that you even succeeded. But take it easy. We can't have the
Mayor of this here Town getting in too deep.
Save that for us Bandits.
No offence, but I'm English born and raised. I lived on the coast of Northern Ireland for 10 years up to Jan 2000 and could see the Western Isles of Scotland across 10 miles of Atlantic Ocean from my house (some days I get a bit home-sick). But as far as I know, I have no tartan roots.
JP
Pick up a local ADC map of the Outer Banks while you're there. It's very detailed, and I believe it indicates where you can drive on the beach. I've driven both north of Corolla to the VA state line (a number of times), and down around Oregon Inlet (on the Hatteras National Seashore). I'm sure there are a number of other spots as you head south towards Okracoke Island.
I believe, after Labor Day, you may be able to drive from the VA state line all the way down to Nags Head on the beach. Any Outer Bankers know that for sure?
Bob
Oh, WRT the Forester in used as support vehicles in the WRC rallies (Sorry Mike! ), they actually showed a few of them yesterday (there were 5, maybe more). They were fitted with 3 really long antennas on the roof (removable, I believe), and all of the windows (except from the windshield and the area on the front windows where the exterior rearview mirrors are) are tinted with the same metallic reflective tint as the rally cars themselves. Very nice!
Drew
I drove over 2000 miles from Lands End on the southern tip of England up to Loch Ness in Scotland. I put about 500 miles on a Rover 600 (similar to an Accord, but with a healthy dose of British styling cues), and the rest on a Volvo V70. Both cars were automatic, but neither had air-conditioning -- you didn't need it!
Being a certified car nut, I thought I had died and gone to heaven! The vehicles you see over there defy description: from 3-wheeled Reliants, to Citreon 2CVs to a street-legal Jaguar D (not E, but D) type in absolutely concours condition, parked on the street. It's unbelievable. I remember following an old Citreon 2CV down some windy road in Wales. The driver was going so fast that I swore that thing was going to tip over, but it just held on.
I stopped in a number of car dealers, including a Subaru dealer that was tucked away down in some tiny Mews in London, where they had an Impreza Turbo sitting on the showroom floor. I picked up some brochures on UK Subarus, Rovers, MGF, UK-spec Toyotas, Nissans, Jeeps, Fords, Hondas and Volvos.
Didn't see many Soobs over there. I did see a Hummer and a Suburban in London though! And a lot of Jeeps. At a Jeep-Chrysler dealer in London they had a "Chrysler" Viper on the showroom floor!
Anybody thinking of going to England -- DO IT! You won't regret it.
Bob
Frank
No real surprise, considering that to own a car there, you have to be making 6 figures (in British pounds) minimum - since everything is so much more expensive (insurance, gas, the car itself).
But the trip is worth it alone, just to feast your eyes on the 1000 year old buildings, the cars, and the whole "alive" feeling the city has. The place is unbelievable.
(I've got a job waiting for me over there, but so far I can't convince myself to go because the living costs are so expensive. London is likely the *most* expensive city in the world.)
-- ash
I also developed a taste for English beer, at room temperature and non gassy, drunk in lovely country pubs. Thinking about it makes me feel quite home sick although I am actually Australian and only went there for a very long (9 years) working holiday. As to the cost of living, yes it is as bad as everyone says, particularly in London. We only spent a year there and then moved into the country where the roads are more exciting to drive and the people friendlier. American or Australian friendliness is unusual in Britain unless they think it is worth getting to know you. i.e. do they want a free bed in Washington when they next visit? That is probably libellous but fairly reflects my experience of Londoners in particular.
My job in the UK involved driving 30000 miles or more each year. It also meant that I got to drive a lot of other cars from the very pedestrian to the quite exotic (no, not McLarens or Rolls Royce but attainable dreams). The experience of driving there is frightening after the US or Australia. Motorways typically move at 85-90mph against a speed limit of 70mph. Occassionally the speed drifts over 100mph which can be quite frightening especially if there is mist or fog, a frequent occurrence. There is something frightening about seeing a 100 car pile up after some lunatic has done something minor at that speed.
Where we lived in rural Gloucestershire, Subarus were much more common than closer in to London. Legacys always seemed to be towing horse floats and Imprezas were quite popular. Our GP (MD to you) swore that an Impreza (not WRX) was the ideal doctor's car, flash enough without being too showy and four wheel drive for the snowy nights. The night I had to take my sick daughter 25 miles to the nearest major hospital, creeping warily over black ice all the way in the ungainly Merc, I decided I agreed with him. If Subarus had been cheaper and held their residual value better, I think it would have been a hot pick. They are however seen as quirky. I can't remember any on our fleet of more than 1000 cars although "User Chooses!" was the order.
Back here in Oz, Subarus are very popular with a lot of Outbacks around. With the very outdoors oriented lifestyle I can see why.
Cheers
Graham
I believe 15" wheels come on Lagacy L's and Imprezas; ask your mechanic if the bolt pattern matches, or perhaps someone here knows. You might even be able to find a nice, bald, used tire which should get you through the sand in fine fettle.
Q to those with beach driving experience: not that I'm planning to do it, but I'm curious as to how my Legacy GT would do on sand. How important is ground clearance, particularly when compared to tire flotation? The GT is lower but has wider tires than, say, an Impreza.
These tales of the REAL Outback (Oz) remind me of when I was 18. Australia was still offering land grants to people willing to settle there, and I came within a whisker of taking them up on it. One of life's little what if's.
The English know how to drink beer. I got a beer at a restaurant this past weekend; it arrived in one of those confounded frosted mugs. I had to wait 10 minutes before I could even taste the beer!
Best,
WDB
:-)
Chris (who actually can't stand the taste of beer -- the stuff in England was less horrid than the stuff we have here in the US, but was still not for me)
I also had a hard time finding a used Subaru. My husband wanted a used Outback but I discovered I could get a new Legacy for the same price. I talked a friend in the car business who told me that was a better idea. You may consider a new Legacy if you can't find a good used GT. That way you can get a five speed and the color you want, like I did.
Denice
England has essentially, if I remember correctly, three speed limits: 70 mph on dual-lane carriageways/motorways (Interstates in the USA), and 60 mph on other country roads. These are mostly "very" narrow 2-lane roads (sometimes 1 1/2-lane) with absolutely no shoulder. Many a time I remember driving these roads with the hedges along side of the road actually brushing up against the side of the car. And finally, 40mph(?) in urban areas.
You will find farm tractors and bicycles mingling with cars and lorrys (trucks) on the 70 mph motorways. It was also common, especially up north in Scotland, to see herds of sheep in the middle of the road. There are roundabouts (traffic circles) everywhere. It took me two days to figure them out. The road signs are -- without a doubt -- the worst I have ever encountered. If you're driving over there, expect to be lost a good portion of the time.
The English drivers are very fast, but for the most part, also very good. You never see people passing on the wrong side, as you do here. They flash their lights when they are about to pass, and never sit in the fast lane, except to pass.
I had to be very careful of motorcycles. There are a lot of them, mostly high-speed road rockets, and they come up on you very quickly, and will pass large groups of cars in an instant. Whenever I went to pull out to pass someone, they were my worst fear.
On two-lane roads, with a dashed (passing) line down the center, people will pass -- with oncoming traffic right there in front of them! They split the two lanes when they pass. The first time that happened to me, I thought I was going to have to change my shorts! This is done all the time.
Didn't care for the food, and the English, for some reason, have an aversion to using ice cubes in their drinks. My understanding is the reason the English like warm beer, is that they all have Lucas refrigerators (a cheap shot I know, but couldn't resist).
After driving 2000 miles over there, on the wrong side of the road, I had a hard time getting used to driving back in the States.
Bob
JP, apologies. Couldn't remember for sure. "tartan" roots
Dave (dsattler). Funny; hadn't heard that one. Thanks for elevating the bar of wit after my poor jump.
..Mike
..Mike
Re: Lucas aka "Prince of Darkness" (first hand memories from my '73 Triumph 750 Bonneville -- on occasion I'd have to cast incantations and wave chicken bones to get the electrical system to work.)
Randy
Bob: reminds me of Brazil, where all Dodge's are sold as Chryslers (Caravan, Stratus, etc). That may be the case in all markets outside of the US.
Call me a wimp but I take my beer cold. At least I believe any good pub MUST have Guinness on tap.
-juice
Still, the tires are 205 vs. 225 for the Outback, plus that extra inch of clearance. Less weight, though.
If you're planning on beach driving, I'd stick with an Outback or Forester. It'd probably be OK except for soft sand.
-juice
We were driving somewhere in England, and just parked the car at some roadside parking vista, when we noticed an elderly English couple open the trunk (boot) of their car, pull out a small table and two chairs, then set out a pot of tea along with cups, saucers and silverware. It was tea time! They then proceeded to sit down and enjoy the vista along with their afternoon tea.
Bob
Not my record but still good, considering I sat for 45 minutes in bumper-to-bumper traffic to cross the bay bridge, and the rest of the tank was commuting.
My secret? Shifting at 1500rpm? Nope (but I got a kick out of that anyway...). I usually shift at 3000rpm, 4000rpm when needed. I only go higher than that if I'm playing.
The owner's manual actually gives ideal shift points for best mileage, and when I tried it out they tended to be right around 3000rpm, so that's how I got the idea.
Must be a miracle. When was the last time a computer geek actually RTFM'd?
-juice
r = read
t = the
m = manual
and like Mike said once,the f is silent?
Randy
..Mike
..Mike
..Mike
..Mike
I used to work for a Help Desk and we never, ever, EVER read a manual. It was like men asking for directions! Manuals? HEAVENS, it's like giving up your manhood!
-juice
SAS (Slow as Sh1t) couldn't plunk down $23999 for it. Getting a Trooper LS w/HUGE MOONROOF for $27450.
But my XT6 lives.
-mike
IMO you are not a sale out!
If you are then I'm too! And W/ three subies
under my belt you would think that's enough
autos to be a small Fleet.
However when faced w/ 6 passengers (Big Guys)
from the office heading out to job sites, I
always take my 4x4 Truck (GMC).
Now, Its my dream that Subaru and GMC will
Get it together and give Birth to a SUV W/
or AWD Truck so that I could cover all the
bases with just one man.
I've looked around and I don't like the cost
of the inventions that are already on the market
that meets my Dream. Not to mention my style.
So Someday in the future perhaps we may see
the Subaru Samson!
Best wishes w/ the Trooper!
Later
The talk of British drivers reminded me of my drives on the Autobahn in Germany. Driving there was a breeze for an American. Steering wheel on the left, you drive on the right side of the road, and the they drive correctly! (i.e. stay right except to pass) It must make them crazy to try to drive over here in the USA.
Dave
Jeez, I can't keep up. My work computer is in full view. By the time I get a chance to check the board, y'all are 35 freakin' posts ahead!
:-)
tonight I have the late shift, so I can keep better track...
Lucien
I will have my first experience towing with the 97 OB this weekend. I will tow my Coleman p/u to Gulf Shores, AL from Huntsville. I previously towed it with a 93 Nissan Quest.
Dave
220hp @ 5600 RPM
230lb Torque @ 3000 RPM
3.5l DOHC
-mike
The former is the best because it allows the 4WD/AWD system to assist in stabilising the handling of the vehicle in all weather conditions; Dry, wet or otherwise. 90/10 is also ideal since it's more biased towards safe understeer should anything go wrong. A 10/90 split on the other hand, could be a little dicey since the vehicle is more tailhappy, especially in the snow. My E320 4-matic has a 38%/62% split (apparently for a more traditional RWD feeling) that is inherently more prone to oversteer. This is noticable in the snow if the stability control system is turned off. The BMW X5 has a 32/68 split and its tailhappy nature was also very evident in the snow.
Drew
..Mike
outlast our Subies and be around to see future
models.
Pump it man!
So far my favorite feature is the absolutely HUGE moonroof in the trooper.
-mike
The Trooper's On-Demand 4WD system is very similar to that used in my Explorer's Control Trac. Both are RWD until it senses slippage, then the 4WD kicks in. I also believe both are made by Borg-Warner, as is the Mercedes ML 4WD system.
Bob
Department will propose a five-star rating system
to reflect the propensity for a vehicle to rollover
in a sideways skid. The ratings will be
mathematically based where a one-star rating
reflects a greater than 40% chance of rollover and
five-stars reflect a less than 10% chance.
The article points out that "In 1998, 62 percent
of drivers and passengers killed in sport utility
vehicles died in rollovers. That contrasts with 22
percent of fatalities in cars attributable to
rollovers"
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2000/05/25/MN16737.DTL
Hmm, we should measure the Trooper's and the Forester S Premium's moonroofs to see which wins the Mine's Biggest competition. My aftermarket roof has a 15" by 30" opening.
All I'm pumping is 12 ounces at a time, and it's not even beer, just soda.
-juice
Low Range is definitely nice for deep snow. I use it more frequently when going downhill in the snow actually. My ML has a special low range ABS algorithm that activates the brakes cyclically, hence allowing some locking of the wheels and shortening stopping distances in the snow or mud (but steering is compromised slightly, of course). Subaru's ABS uses a G-sensor (introduced in model year 1996 onwards) to detect the road surface and adjust the ABS pulses appropriately.
Since my ML has open differentials, I can use Low range on dry pavement as well without any damage. With low range activated, it becomes a torque monster (660+ ft-lb/torque - 2.64X multiplication). But in reality, normal range is just fine for 98% of the time.
IMHO, the Trooper is nice (if you need the space) but it too is slightly underpowered. Also, I'm still a little unnerved by the very noticable body lean during cornering. I guess its just something that you've to get used to. Just don't try any aggressive steering maneuvers with that baby. Like all SUVs, it will understeer when pushed.
Have you considered the '01 Mitsubishi Montero? It doesn't have an abundance of power, but I like it a lot better than the Trooper. It even has an independent rear suspension!
Good Luck in making your decision!
Stephen