By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
Not to put down the Explorer, but the Isuzu TOD system is far "smarter" and quicker reacting than Ford's Control Trac. The problem with Control Trac is that when the vehicle is in auto 4WD mode and slippage is detected, the power transfer to the front wheels can be quite abrubt. This caused by the multi-plate clutches progressively engaging and transfering only certain % of power to the \front at a time. Of course, you can also lock the centre differential by placing the vehicle into 4Hi mode.
TOD on the other hand is far smoother and can also anticipate certain conditions to lessen the chance of oversteer/understeer. However, it too is not the quickest reacting. For that, you'll have to look at the Infiniti QX4's auto 4WD system that was originally derived from the Nissan Skyline AWD super sports car.
Drew
I find it perplexing that the NHTSA removed the conditional side impact ratings on certain SUVs (the CR-V, Passport/Rodeo) which rolled over during the side impact crash tests. Instead, they replaced it with a general (and stoopid) comment on the top of the main SUV webpage stating that SUVs are more prone to rollover.
VDC is going to sticker @ $32K, Trooper stickers @ $32.5K. The trooper is much bigger (it's interior cargo space is actually greater than the expedition). I guess it's a preference and need thing. I'm looking at getting a 19-21ft boat sometime in the next 5 years which is how long it'll take me to payoff the Trooper, I figured I could get by with the GT Wagon, but if it had trouble with 5 guys in it, a 19ft 2000lb boat would never fly. I think the H6 Outback is going to be too pricey to compete with other vehicles, I see it going the way of the SVX
I guess I really wanted an RS and a Trooper, and thought the GT Wagon could be the best of both worlds, unfortunately it doesn't do either world any good. So I'll stick with the XT6 and the Trooper til the XT6 dies, then invest in an SVX or RS or WRX.
Yes, the AWD system is made by Borg-Warner on the Trooper. I found it to be much smoother in activation than the Ford version (ford one seemed to kick in, whereas this one smoothly transisions) Also noticed that it would increase to almost 50/50 as i did heavy acceration out of a traffic light, then slack off to 100%RWD as I came up to speed.
I'll measure the moonroof when I get it. From my rough estimate it was about 2 ft wide, by 3-4 ft in length.
-mike
-mike
Bob
The Expedition has a 3rd row seat, remove it and I'm sure the cargo space is much bigger. It's still a Ford, though, and the Trooper has better long-term reliability.
The new H6 models will cost a bunch, but consider what you're getting. In content they'll compare more closely to the QX4 or a heavily loaded Trooper (leather, traction control, moonroof, etc.).
-juice
with the premium package (awesome moonroof!).
After about 3 weeks, we noticed the fabric wearing
off where my husband puts his arm on the doorsill--like the person posting a note on May 18, 2000. In our Mazda Protege they have vinyl on this area to avoid this situation. We don't know what to do with it, either.
An important note to those who have the side airbags in the Forester. I saw in the manual that you are not supposed to put your arm on the doorsill or the armrest! You have to keep the area between the seat and the door clear of any objects--including your arm--in case the airbag is deployed.The airbag fills the area btween the seat and the door when it deploys. If I had known this, I wouldn't have gotten the side airbags (though I'm not sure you can skip them when you get the premium package).
Pat
I keep my arm on the arm rest, the door sill is way too high to be comfortable for me. Seems surprising to me that you'd use it (I'm about 6' tall).
I guess you should just keep your left hand on the steering wheel, at about the 9 o'clock position.
-juice
My dad lives on a gravel road. It used to be very long, but now it's all paved except the last 1/4 mile. One set of grandparents lives on a gravel road too, much longer. Everyone with a Subaru should experience the joy of 4 wheel drifts on gravel roads...
Haven't gotten a flat since high school though (going on 8 years now). That was in my RX-7, ran over a sparkplug. Funny thing, the tire was still mostly inflated and the electrode side was sticking out about 3/4". My father for some reason thought to remove the plug... of course the tire went flat instantly.
-Colin
Since I shuffle-steer, my hands are nearly always at the 9 and 3 o'clock or the 4 and 8 o'clock positions. I shuffle steer because it is safer in the event that the airbag does deploy; I really don't want my fist flying up at high speed towards my nose. Shuffle-steering is also a lot more efficient than the hand over hand technique. One added benefit is that it almost eliminates the tendency for the driver to overcorrect in an emergency situation.
Drew
Does this mean you'll be joining us for a ride at Rocks??
Pat-
Agree 100% Shuffle steering is the way to go. That Driving School I attended drilled that into my head...
~~Pat
-mike
Actually, it's a rotary so never mind!
You guys care to elaborate on shuffle steering? Is it similar to hand-over-hand, expect shorter turns and you don't cross?
Subaru has used 2nd gen air bags since 1998. They deploy with less force and are less likely to injure.
-juice
- A double-edged razor with blade intact
- A twig (in a truck tire no less)
- Lots and lots of metal filings
- Lots and lots of nails and screws
- An adjustable wrench, which I still use - the head of the wrench was inside the tire. My mom somehow managed that feat.
That's just the car/truck tires. Bicycle tires are another tale.
Cheers,
WDB
I disagree that you'll be just as safe without the airbag. If you look at any of the side-by-side comparison crash test footage of identical cars with and without airbags (assuming that the seatbelts are worn), the dummy in the car with the airbag always does a whole lot better. The dummy in the car w/o the airbag could end up wacking the steering wheel very hard. That is something that I don't want to try.
Here's an airbag/no airbag comparo picture of two Lincoln Town Cars (which are pretty large, heavy and relatively safe cars) in a 35 mph crash test. If the driver was shorter and had to sit closer to the wheel, the results might have even been worse:
Now, if all of our cars had safety setups like that of the BTCC or WRC rally cars (4 or 5 point safety harnesses, full rollcages and reduced diameter steering wheels), then airbags would be less of an issue. But even with all of this equipment, MB still decided to fit their LeMans racing cars with a small driver's side airbag.
Just my 2 cents Canadian!
Drew
Someone please enlighten us!!
-- ash
Here's how it works. For a left turn, the left hand moves to the top of the steering wheel and pulls the wheel a full half-turn to the bottom, while the right hand slides downward to meet the left hand at the bottom. The right hand then pulls up on the wheel, while the left hand mirrors the movement until both hands meet at the top. Do the opposite for right hand turns. This takes a lot of getting used to, and you'll probably inadvertently revert to the old hand-over-hand technique if you're not paying attention. However, once you get used to shuffle steering, you'll find that it is very efficient. Note that you can still use the hand-over-hand method when parking (it's sometimes easier), but when moving at higher speeds, shuffle steering is better and safer.
The traditional hand position on your wheel is to put your hands at 10 and 2 o'clock. That old standard derives from a steering technique called "hand-over-hand" in which, in a large turn, the arms nearly cross and the driver releases and regrips the steering wheel if necessary. Since virtually all movement of the wheel is accomplished by the downward-pulling hand, the 10-2 position, which puts the palms downward, uses some of the arms' smaller muscles for steering.
Shuffle steering is a better technique since the pulling hand and arm move the wheel while the other hand loosens its grip slightly to let the wheel slide through. If necessary in a large turn, hands can shuffle and steer alternately. The driver's hands, when not turning, are farther down, at 9 and 3 o'clock on the wheel. With palms turned more inward in this position, the driver uses larger arm muscles. This gives better control and produces less fatigue. The hands are always on the wheel, and the hand that's "shuffling" is ready to regrip the wheel to turn in the opposite direction instantly. Recent studies of airbag safety and internal injuries have indicated that perhaps the 8 and 4 o'clock hand positions are even better.
This 9-3 or 8-4 hand position also decreases the likelihood that the driver will oversteer the car. All unnecessary steering wheel movement should be eliminated from your driving, in the interests of efficiency, comfort and tire wear. Far too many drivers make tiny and unnecessary corrections to their car's direction constantly.
Hope this helps and now, all of you go out and practice in your Soobies (and have fun)! ;-)
Drew
You guys need to head to an autocross and try that shuffle stuff and see how it works during real erratic manuevering. Then again if you're really good at it, I think you could make anything work.
If you want to try this style, you better like sitting bolt upright, close to the wheel and you better have good forearms if you have wide, sticky tires.
-Colin
(still catches his wife grabbing the wheel underhand during her hand-over-hand)
Newer airbags really do seem to be smarter though, I've seen some posts on the i-club where guys were broadsided or hit a guardrail and the airbag didn't deploy. Remember, the Impreza has no side airbags so they should only deploy after a direct front or rear collision. Sounds like they worked.
All the same, I'd rather not have any at all.
-Colin
I think that shuffle steering is intended more for race track driving, where rapid maneuvers are not present. On the track, fluid movements are the keys to not upsetting the car's balance.
To view the clip, click here to go to the BMW USA website. Next, click on the BMW X5 ultimate driving experience link, then click on "The Day". After that, click on the little steering wheel icon, and then on the "Autocross" square box on the right hand side. You should then see another row of orange squares appearing above. Click on the "Instructor" square and watch the video clip.
Incidentally, if any of you guys want to attend the BMW event, click on "Registration" for more info (it's free, BTW).
Drew
I've usually held the wheel at 9 and 3, and try not to remove my hands from the wheel at all. This works in all but the sharpest turns (3/4 and U-turns). Read this in a book by Emerson Fittipaldi, in Portuguese too!
Colin: do you have a 4-point harness for the autoX? A helmet is required, right?
I'm asking because one point of airbags is to save you from disfiguration, which isn't relevant if you have a helmet on.
-juice
The real point of airbags is to justify and recoup all the money the insurance companies poured into the technology over the past 30 years. They were taken down the primrose path by a bunch of pie-in-the-sky engineering firms, and poured countless millions into funding airbag research. Naturally enough they lobbied NHTSA to make them mandatory, and for once the gummint did us some good and resisted for a long, long time. Eventually the insurance companies won and we all got substandard, intrinsically unsafe, not-yet-ready technology foisted on us.
Airbags have finally, in the past 2 years or so, gotten to the point where they actually add to the safety equation for folks who wear seat belts. In some cars, in some cases.
IMESHO,
WDB
Had those on my Escort, and they were just awful. Countless times they nearly decapitated unsuspecting passengers. Even when they worked, you still had to manually fasten the lap belt, which is more important.
-juice
That was me with the original post. Again for the record, my Forester is a '00S with cloth interior - no leather or side airbags. I drive almost exclusively with hands at 3 and 9, and my left arm doesn't ususally rest on anything. Again, I must emphasize that I noticed the fabric wear down after about a week where I was commuting back and forth to client sites via the New Jersey and Pennsylvania Turnpikes and the Garden State Parkway - situations where I laid my arm on the doorsill in anticipation of paying tolls. (Maybe if these Yankees would get rid of toll roads I wouldn't have this problem ;-* ).
I'm stumped as to what I'll do - I'm taking in the Forester for its next scheduled checkup next week (@6500 mi in just 4 1/2 mos. - ugh) and I'll complain then, but I don't know what that'll get me - maybe a recovered doorsill that'll still wear down and will probably rattle form having been removed and reinstalled.
Doilies, anyone?
For the record I'm 5'7" and I didn't find the doorsill noticeably uncomfortable. That's also why I've never chimed in on all those posts about the Forester lacking room - it's plenty roomy for me and I'm built like a fire hydrant. Ditto the lack of factory sun/moonroofs on pre-'01s - I'm practically bald on top so while I miss the one in my old VW Jetta, I'm probably better off without it.
(rant warning)
I don't care how good a driver you are - it's entirely too easy for any dumb-[non-permissible content removed] to get a driver's license. Moreover, the inability of US railroads to compete effectively as freight movers has increased the demand for truck drivers who are overworked, undermonitored, undertrained, and generally a hazard. The first three hours of driver's ed should be emergency room footage, because the most dangerous driver is the one who thinks he's completely in control and that, while other "poor slobs" get into accidents, he's too gooooood a driver to let it happen to him. BS.
The three most dangerous vehicles on the road?
DWI driver
Semi tractor with no trailer (you know there are no front brakes on those tractors, right?)
Logging trucks
So there; pardon the caffeinated rant.
I looked on mine and it ('98 L) has the moquette upholstery, which looks kind of loose woven but pretty sturdy. Yours is softer are more velvety.
-juice
PS If you think it's bad here, an ex of mine in Brazil had a license and admitted she didn't know how to drive! Daddy had a pal at the DMV...
Whew, glad that's out of the way. Now.. how 'bout them O's? [ed: Orioles]
nvy I'm a tad late but LOL! If I don't work off this gut my Sube just might outlast me!
Drew Great shuffle steering video of the BMW instructor but.. I slow-motioned through it and he actually removes, not shuffles, his left hand on or about frames 21-25.
, and this post started off so enlightening too (hello, why is it so quiet in here?) um, maybe I should go back to lurking (shh, not all at once now).
Seriously though, to see what Drew's talking about, slow motion through it. Quite fascinating, Drew. Many thanks; I'll try shuffle steering!
..Mike
..Mike
Have fun driving! You probably won't get it right away, but with practice you will.
Drew
Back to rollovers for a minute: just read a statistic that said 63% of people who die in an SUV die in a rollover-type accident. Compare this to 20% average for all passenger cars fatalities. I'm sure some SUVs are better than others, and some have control systems that help prevent accidents, but that is one seriously sobering statistic that scares me away from SUVs. Car companies have to do something about this. One company has produced an aftermarket system that tightens up the shocks on one side when it detects an impending roll. Supposedly it will help a bunch.
Have a fantastic 3-day weekend!
Dave
When my parents bought a Range Rover 4.6HSE back in '96 (their first SUV; they have a '00 ML430 now), the first thing that all of us did was to take a supplementary driver's ed. course specifically designed for SUVs. This way, all of us who drove the vehicle knew its limits. This programme is still being offered today (as well as a few others) by Driving Unlimited. Granted, we had more experience with higher centre of gravity vehicles because we had a minivan in addition and prior to the R.R.
Of course, not all of the blame can be put onto the customers. The manufacturers have to also design them to be less prone to rollovers. For example, the centre of gravity of the BMW X5 SUV is only about 3 inches higher than that of the BMW 5-series sedan. Interestingly, in order for this low C.G to be accomplished, the enginerds (hehe, Mike) designed the front axle to run through the oil pan. An expensive maneuver, no doubt - probably something the domestic manufacturers are much less likely to do.
At least in the last couple of years, some manufacturers (just 3 of them) have started offering stability control systems which prevent the vehicles from losing control in the first place. MB was the first to offer ESP as standard equipment in the '99 M-class, next was Toyota with VSC for the Land Cruiser and Lexus LX470, and finally BMW with DSC in their X5. Notice that all of these SUVs are start around US$35K and above. It has been my experience that the typical driver will reach his/her limit much earlier than the vehicle will.
My 2 cents Canadian!
Drew
P.S. Click here for stability estimates for a few Mercedes models. Note that the M-class's is not too far off from the other MB cars. Also note the G-wagen's much lower tolerance.
Any help would be much appreciated!
~~~Pat
1.
Their 99.9% commitment to AWD. They still sell an entry-level FWD Impreza and several non-4WD micro-cars/trucks in Japan, so it's NOT 100% (yet).
For me AWD is where it's at. All the other car manufacturers that "dabble" in AWD (Volvo, Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, Mitsubishi, etc.) aren't "truly" committed to the belief that AWD is superior. If they did, all their vehicles would be AWD, not just a few.
2.
I like their strong commitment to creative and logical engineering that actually makes it into production. AWD, boxer engines, turbos, VDC, hill-holder clutch, dual-range transmissions, and the list goes on and on... The public benefits from some pretty neat and unusual stuff. And... as we all know, more is coming shortly.
3.
Subaru is different from other Japanese car companies. It's the only car company in which just about all their vehicles have "character." They have personality and are not nearly as bland as most Japanese cars.
I've often thought of Subaru as being more European than Japanese. They incorporate a lot of utility, ruggedness and sport into their vehicles, like the Europeans have always done.
4.
Subaru's relatively recent conversion to sporty vehicles. Subaru has always been known for being somewhat quirky. However, in the past few years they seem to have discovered that they can market sporty cars successfully... and is moving their whole lineup in that direction.
5.
Subarus are among the most dependable cars available, anywhere. They are reasonably priced and not expensive to maintain or operate.
Bob
My Subie was quite reliable; however, here in Canada at least, parts are more expensive, and are harder to get than most other makes. Replacement parts had to be Subaru only, and often involved a 2 or 3 day shipping delay.
Randy
As someone fairly familiar with European and Japanese cars (limited knowledge of American but a lasting terror of those awful run round the door seatbelt things which try to decapitate unwitting tourists who have never seen them before), I tend to agree with your assessment of the European type design values apparent in the Subaru. Some of the ideas are a bit odd but most of them work. There was a long discussion some months ago about the lights switching off when the ignition is off; logical to avoid a flat battery but weird if you are not used to it. The water cooled boxer engine is another; lower centre of gravity, easier to sort harmonic vibrations, even in large capacity 4 cylinder, but not conventional.
Having jumped into a Subaru Outback from a VW Passat, much of the feel and the general design philosophy seems to be similar. Here in Australia, many of the independent repairers for Subarus also specialize in VW. It is partly a historical thing as both tended to be sold by the same dealerships here about 20 years ago, but the connection is rather more than that.
Dependability is another attraction. I have only done 25000k (about 16000m) in my Outback but have suffered no great grief so far. After my Mercedes experiences, this is a great relief. When the car needs a service, I call and get a booking a day or so later. I can wait for the service in civilised surrounds, catching up on some work and then get on with life. With the Merc, it took longer to get a headlamp bulb changed (a six monthly task. Only ever had one fail in other cars in twenty three years but the Merc blew them regular as clockwork) than it does for the full service on the Subaru.
There are other values to the Subaru that I like. Melbourne, where I now live is known as the only city in the world where you can get four seasons in the one day. Today, it is doing winter pretty well and the rain, hail, thunderstorms and sleet are a reminder of how poor traction can get, particularly after a dry spell has allowed oil and rubber sediments to build up on the road surface. Standing by the street in the rain yesterday, I heard repeated loss of traction on acceleration and skids on braking. AWD and ABS seems like a good idea
Cheers
Graham
Every magazine and every owner of a Trooper says the same: very good vehicle off road, improved on road feeling vs. the previous version but awful gas mileage, worst than the V8s of Jeep and Land Rover. I had the chance of buying a '99 on april at US$23,900, but I pass on it.
According to my calculation, buying a Forester, and selling my '98 Blazer is going to save me about 25% at least, on gas.
For me, in a year, that amounts at some nice subbie accesories.
Also, the fact of decision was when I saw somewhere in the autoworld news that Subaru won two prizes: Best automaker for 1999 and JD Power Customer Satisfaction No.1 on England, a country where the people commonly abuses cars.
I did my homework and find that in every comparison that Forester beat the hell out of Rav4s, CRVs, Sportages...
Bob
I just picked up the Summer 2000 issue OPEN ROAD magazine and just happened to e-mail them with some suggestions, and got a reply back from the Feature Editor saying it's no longer going to be published.
I e-mailed him back to express my dismay, and found out they had a great deal of trouble selling ad space, and that HFM decided to pull the plug. That's often a case with quarterly publications. It's very difficult to develop a loyal reader base which advertisers can rely on.
It's real loss. Being an off-shoot of ROAD & TRACK, I thought that OPEN ROAD was one of the best on/off road magazines out there.
Bob
In the Dominican Republic also, the VW and Subaru dealers are the same.
ANYWAY, I think it is o.k. to cheat a little when shuffling through a tight course. I don't think any instructor would advocate absolute devotion to a dogmatic principle over vehicle control. Additionally, I would agree that shuffle technique is more suited to hwy and race course driving, less for autoX.
My Soob devotion: An AWD, 5-speed wagon with good power and practicality.
I am not a longtime Subaru owner; I bought my first Subaru in March of this year. Perhaps I am indicative of the market into which Subaru is reaching with their additional emphasis on sport and a different style. What I mean by that is this: one of my favorite characteristics of the GT is how 'clean' the exterior is. Not a bunch of colors and stripes and doodads tacked on; not even an antenna! Just clean lines. (I went so far, in my quest for clean lines, as to badger the dealer into finding me one without the rear spoiler, and accepted the car with 300 miles on it because they had to retrieve it from a distant dealer.) Alternatively one of the things that turns me off (no offense intended, this is just MHO) about the Outbacks is all the stuff tacked onto them, the different colors, the racks and whatnot. I would not buy an Outback, I would not buy a base L; I would probably not even have stopped at the Subaru dealer if that was all they had to offer. And yet I now own a Subaru.
Regards,
WDB
1. smooth, quiet, near-luxury ride on dry roads, yet can easily handle dirt roads and even mild off-roading
2. is elegant and unique looking (hey Francophile, I like the Outback's looks!), yet is practical to meet almost any need -- ie. has plenty of cargo space, and towing capacity for my needs
3. reliable, and built of quality materials. Truly, the underneath of these vehicle is a marvel to behold. Subaru went to a great deal of pain to protect just about everything on the undersided.
4. holds it's value well, yet isn't boring and anonymous like a Honda or Toyota
5. is probably one of the safest cars to own, with AWD, 4-channel ABS, steel side door beams, reinforced steel cage and best in it's class IIHS rating!!
6. finally, but most importantly - it's affordable compared to it's competition.
That's why I own a Subaru...
-- ash
I am not really looking for additional power. I am looking to counteract the affect of high altitudes on engine power. I am very impressed by what Audi/VW have done with their 1.8l motor by turborizing it.
I just spent a lot of time in the Sierras with a V8 Jeep Grand Cherokee and I was dissapointed with the power loss at 6,000' and higher. I will soon be replacing that lemon with an Outback Sedan.
Thank you for any suggestions.
Daniel