Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

qbrozen · April 2018

berri said:

I think the manufacturers have been seeing how high they can push sticker prices the past few years given the low interest rates. HyunKia now has credibility in the US, so they can join in. Of course car (vs. truck/SUV) sales have been chilly lately, so I suspect you can get a chunk of the sticker reduced. But that particular car looks kind of greedy and it is another 2+ grand if you want awd. That buys a pretty nice crossover. I also think that is getting into Audi A3 pricing.

An A3? That's 2 size classes down. Not the least bit comparable. Plus, the Stinger is a RWD platform. That alone is more costly.

The MSRP of a 2.0T Accord Touring is only $1200 less than a RWD Stinger 2.0T Premium. That, IMHO, is where the true comparison lies.

berri · April 2018

It will be interesting to see what net price those Kia's sell at and how the depreciation turns out.

stickguy · April 2018

I still have not seen one on the road. I don't think.

berri · April 2018

That alone is more costly.
Why is the the case? I don't really know, but I've read comments over time along the lines that trucks have huge profit margins because the BOF is less expensive to manufacture than unibody? Maybe that is because they don't have to change the frame design all that often? My understanding is that the auto industry primarily moved from BOF cars for weight and safety reasons, so that may support the cost disadvantage thing I guess.

qbrozen · April 2018

BOF isn't the same as RWD. The Kia is not BOF. RWD is more expensive because of the extra components (driveshaft and differential) and assembly costs of those extra components involved.

As for BOF, I don't know if it is less to manufacture, but I think a big reason for the profit margin is the large numbers in which they sell. Your R&D and tooling costs get spread out over the number of units you build, so the more units, the more profit.

berri · April 2018

gbrozen, you raised an interesting point, so I did some research on production costs. I am not an auto industry engineer or accountant, but the actual total design and manufacturing cost appears to be slightly higher on BOF because of frame and other supporting metal. However, unibody tends to have more aluminum, alloys and high tensile steel bringing the actual average overall producer costs pretty close at similar production volume. The overall design and build cost has several other issues. BOF is cheaper to change, modify, etc. However, another cost factor is that the generally much higher production volumes and related cost efficiencies of unibody vehicles can offset some of the BOF change and modification cost difference advantage by spreading the change costs out over a wider unit volume base. Of course, trucks, performance vehicles, true SUV's generally work better with BOF. So basically it appears all things being equal, BOF would cost more to produce, but less to change or modify. However, unibody material requirements ,often narrow this difference which is why bottom line the total manufacturer cost isn't as widely different as it would initially seem on higher volume vehicle lines. In the case of high performance or high luxury vehicles, I'd guess those material costs like special metal alloys would apply equally to both types of manufacturing, which along with generally low production volume then results in making BOF a clearer higher production cost in that situation.

You are obviously correct that rwd has more parts than fwd, as well as usually lower volume, which both drive up production cost unless sharing a high volume chassis and drivetrain. Thanks for getting me to look closer at all of this.

tjc78 · April 2018

qbrozen said:

berri said:

I think the manufacturers have been seeing how high they can push sticker prices the past few years given the low interest rates. HyunKia now has credibility in the US, so they can join in. Of course car (vs. truck/SUV) sales have been chilly lately, so I suspect you can get a chunk of the sticker reduced. But that particular car looks kind of greedy and it is another 2+ grand if you want awd. That buys a pretty nice crossover. I also think that is getting into Audi A3 pricing.

An A3? That's 2 size classes down. Not the least bit comparable. Plus, the Stinger is a RWD platform. That alone is more costly.

The MSRP of a 2.0T Accord Touring is only $1200 less than a RWD Stinger 2.0T Premium. That, IMHO, is where the true comparison lies.

Agreed. I’d be willing to bet in a few months 5K (or more) off sticker on the Stinger would be doable. Hyundai/Kia follow GM’s rule of inflated sticker and then rebates and subsidized leases.

qbrozen · April 2018

Right now, truecar has $2600 off that Stinger and $3k off that Accord. I'd still rather have the RWD hatch for $1600 more, personally.

tjc78 · April 2018

I’ve been checking out the stinger.... looks pretty nice. What size is it exactly? In between say a 3 and a 5 series ?

qbrozen · April 2018

I compared the numbers in another thread. It is very very close to a 5'er, and even exceeds it in some measurements. So I'd call it equal.

Mr_Shiftright · April 2018

I think we're veering off topic here so maybe the current discussion needs to drift over to CCBA or mid-size sedans. Thanks!

tjc78 · April 2018

https://tampa.craigslist.org/pnl/cto/d/1983-mustang-notchback/6559061023.html

This one is interesting. Probably very few 4cyl left in this kind of condition.

texases · April 2018

That 4 was a thrashy beast. Not something I’d spend money on, clean or not.

fintail · April 2018

That Mustang needs to be paired with a 4cyl Camaro of the same era. What a time for cars.

Michaell · April 2018

texases said:
That 4 was a thrashy beast. Not something I’d spend money on, clean or not.

I agree. When I graduated from college in 1985, I was looking for a new car. I looked at a Mustang of that vintage, and quickly dismissed it. I ended up buying a one-year-old Honda Accord hatchback instead

fintail · April 2018

Nicest Sunday in several weeks today, took the old dear out for a drive. Started up and ran fine, with warmer temps it will eventually be time for me to adjust the idle speed setting, I noticed just a little miss here and there, the car wants the revs kept up - this is a seasonal adjustment.

I got several waves, thumbs up, compliments, etc - seemed more than normal. One was from a guy in a late model Malibu, I didn't know imidazol97 was visiting out here

A gratuitous pic, parked on the street:

sda · April 2018

I always enjoy pics of fintail. I really like the stacked 4 lamp headlights over the single 2. It just looks better and more classy and contemporary. Also I like your wide white walls especially since you keep them clean and white, yet narrow Michelin white walls would look nice too. Hard to believe that it originally dates back to the year I was born, '59. I hope I age as well!

fintail · April 2018

MB W111 and W108/109 cars are one of the few examples where US spec lights look better, at least IMO. Euro/ROW models had composite lights, one of the first cars to adopt these. It was very modern, maybe almost too modern, seems plain:

I'd never think of converting my car to these - where I'd give serious thought to converting later cars.

Funny thing, once the V8 cars were out in ~1969, MB gave these US style quad lights everywhere, to differentiate them from 6cyl models.

Regarding the single light (W110) fintails, when I was a kid, I thought those were the oldest ones, and the quad light cars were newer, as the lights are similar on W108/109 cars that were made into the early 70s. Of course, this is wrong and the lights were not directly related to age - the stacked light cars were first, the single light cars being the lower line, introduced for 1961.

I think the whitewalls have mellowed a little in the past 5 years - I thought they were too brash when I first got them, but I am glad I did, they set the car off, and are as close as I could find to a correct style - MB used wide whites through the 1964 model year.

sda said:
I always enjoy pics of fintail. I really like the stacked 4 lamp headlights over the single 2. It just looks better and more classy and contemporary. Also I like your wide white walls especially since you keep them clean and white, yet narrow Michelin white walls would look nice too. Hard to believe that it originally dates back to the year I was born, '59. I hope I age as well!

stickguy · April 2018

those composite lenses always make me think of a fly eye.

andres3 · April 2018

qbrozen said:
? Premium 2.0T is $38k and has a moonroof.

Sorry, should have edited and proofread my post.

What I meant to say, that the Stinger has an OPTION to NOT GET a moonroof, whereas most do have the moonroof, you don't have to get it! I like that!

I also like a spare tire because it's cheap and could save you countless hours stranded on the side of the road!

The Accord has a spare. What was Kia thinking in regards to the Optima!!!!!

I'm a bit soured with Kia.

fintail · April 2018

A quick BaT browse found this handsome beast - I kind of like it. Nice colors, nice bold crisp lines.

qbrozen · April 2018

Fin, I am proud of you today! Its not a Benz! haha

qbrozen · April 2018

I should know better than to click on a BaT link. Makes me start wandering.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1988-nissan-be1/

fintail · April 2018

Hey, my tastes can be diverse. BaT is a rabbit hole. I fear one day I'll end up bidding on something and then have to scramble to arrange the funds.

Here's a goodie, this would have been one of my dream cars when I was 11 or so onwards This had it all to my tastes then - 911 cabrio, yes. Flachbau, yes. Perfect color combo, too. Awesome local history. I remember seeing one of these in the summer of 1988, I wonder if it was the same car? Couldn't be - but this one is local. Weird. Thankfully way too rich for my blood.

stickguy · April 2018

There is a blue Datsun 510 on there now I am in love with.

qbrozen · April 2018

yeah, that's pretty nice, stick, but already over $10k and days to go.

stickguy · April 2018

Still cheaper than the yellow fiat x/19.

Mr_Shiftright · April 2018

And way better!

ab348 · April 2018

fintail said:
A quick BaT browse found this handsome beast - I kind of like it. Nice colors, nice bold crisp lines.

That is almost exactly like what Mom & Dad came *that* close to buying in '71. The only difference is that ours would not have been blue back then, it would almost certainly have been a metallic shade of gold, brown or green, maybe all three.

I still remember being in the Ford showroom with them for a few hours in the fall/early winter of 1970 after taking a test drive. Dad was usually a GM guy but the GM strike was on and local dealers had very little inventory and no way to get more. As Dad negotiated on a deal, Mom decided this would be a deal-breaker:

That filler panel between the rear door and the C-pillar was deemed by her to be a problem because people would constantly be hitting it getting in and out. Why this suddenly was a concern I never knew as it didn't seem all that unusual to me. It wasn't like she ever sat in the back anyway. Maybe she just got cold feet, I don't know. Anyway, no deal and away we went.

One thing that disappointed me about the LTD that made me sort of glad they didn't buy it was that it didn't seem to be trimmed the way LTDs used to be. It really looked almost like a Galaxie inside. I did like the styling and the dash design though. It all worked out in the end as we ended up getting a '71 Dodge Monaco which was always one of my favorite cars of theirs.

Mr_Shiftright · April 2018

I don't think your Dad would have liked the gas mileage!

fintail · April 2018

The upholstery in that LTD does seem plainer than I expected - I imagined it would have a fancier brocade, especially a hardtop model like that with the cool turbine hubcaps. I can't imagine the notch below the C-pillar would have been an issue, I think your mom just didn't like it, and was crafty

For that style of LTD. I'd rather have a 70 - the hidden headlights are extremely cool:

Mileage might not have mattered in 1971, but by 1974, the gas price spikes might leave a mark. 1971 was just about the end of the era, I suppose.

ab348 said:

That is almost exactly like what Mom & Dad came *that* close to buying in '71. The only difference is that ours would not have been blue back then, it would almost certainly have been a metallic shade of gold, brown or green, maybe all three. I still remember being in the Ford showroom with them for a few hours in the fall/early winter of 1970 after taking a test drive. Dad was usually a GM guy but the GM strike was on and local dealers had very little inventory and no way to get more. As Dad negotiated on a deal, Mom decided this would be a deal-breaker:

That filler panel between the rear door and the C-pillar was deemed by her to be a problem because people would constantly be hitting it getting in and out. Why this suddenly was a concern I never knew as it didn't seem all that unusual to me. It wasn't like she ever sat in the back anyway. Maybe she just got cold feet, I don't know. Anyway, no deal and away we went.

One thing that disappointed me about the LTD that made me sort of glad they didn't buy it was that it didn't seem to be trimmed the way LTDs used to be. It really looked almost like a Galaxie inside. I did like the styling and the dash design though. It all worked out in the end as we ended up getting a '71 Dodge Monaco which was always one of my favorite cars of theirs.

berri · April 2018

Didn't Ford offer an upscale LTD (Limited or Brougham or some such) model version around then?

Mr_Shiftright · April 2018

Yes they did, and it was a "Brougham". You could get a 2D or 4D or 4D hardtop in the Brougham, but not the convertible, as in the regular LTD.

explorerx4 · April 2018

@Mr_Shiftright,
Wheeler Dealers has an episode tonight about a modern Mini Cooper S.
I thought you might be amused.

tjc78 · April 2018

I just watched the Grand Wagoneer episode. The new guy is no Edd, but the show is still watchable.

stickguy · April 2018

I have not watched at all this season. But they are all backed up on the DVR in case I feel like it!

tjc78 · April 2018

My wife hates it so I end up streaming them while on the Eliptical or Treadmill at the gym (from the Comcast DVR)

Mr_Shiftright · April 2018

explorerx4 said:
@Mr_Shiftright,
Wheeler Dealers has an episode tonight about a modern Mini Cooper S.
I thought you might be amused.

I don't have cable but it's nice to know that a car is finally going to give them a severe thrashing.

"Don't wash it. Don't start it up. Just sell it".

stickguy · April 2018

they can handle the clutch at least. I remember Edd dropping the entire drivetrain on a boxster to do the clutch on that car (maybe some other stuff too). pretty cool. disconnect stuff up top, lift it up, a few bots undone, and engine and trans just drop right out.

texases · April 2018

tjc78 said:
I just watched the Grand Wagoneer episode. The new guy is no Edd, but the show is still watchable.

I liked that Wagoneer episode, except their decision to raise it. I think that was money wasted, folks would have paid just as much for a stock-height Wagoneer.

qbrozen · April 2018

Oh, this poor poor car.

https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/share/202812524

Let's all bow our heads in a moment of silence for the fallen.

stickguy · April 2018

nasty

Mr_Shiftright · April 2018

stickguy said:
they can handle the clutch at least. I remember Edd dropping the entire drivetrain on a boxster to do the clutch on that car (maybe some other stuff too). pretty cool. disconnect stuff up top, lift it up, a few bots undone, and engine and trans just drop right out.

The clutch is a monster job. Here's what his Mini might will look like at the halfway point:

Now you know why I'm not crazy when I say "if the clutch goes, the car gets junked". Of course, on a newer Mini you'd bear the expense---probably $3,000 by the time you're done.

omarman · April 2018

Wow. That clutch job has to include a long list of, "while we're in there we should also replace..."

qbrozen · April 2018

"while we're in there we should also replace..."
...everything. (?)

Mr_Shiftright · April 2018

That's over and above the $3K I suspect. Sure, while you're "in there" (and you are REALLY in there), you'd do the water pump, change out the oil in the supercharger, and of course this is the perfect time to do belts and hoses. These cars use a dual-mass flywheel and that needs replacing as well---and of course the pilot bushing, the flywheel guide pins, and TO bearing and clutch slave.

So unless your car is worth well over $5,000, you'd think twice about doing all this. You'd probably be better off just buying another used one that's newer and has fewer miles.

Michaell · April 2018

Mr_Shiftright said:
That's over and above the $3K I suspect. Sure, while you're "in there" (and you are REALLY in there), you'd do the water pump, change out the oil in the supercharger, and of course this is the perfect time to do belts and hoses. These cars use a dual-mass flywheel and that needs replacing as well---and of course the pilot bushing, the flywheel guide pins, and TO bearing and clutch slave.

So unless your car is worth well over $5,000, you'd think twice about doing all this. You'd probably be better off just buying another used one that's newer and has fewer miles.

So, no clutch job on the MINI in last night's episode, but they did do the 100K service, which was an exhaustive list, including the supercharger oil. Was fascinating to watch, even though I am fairly mechanically incompetent.

texases · April 2018

Aw, man, SPOILER ALERT! I haven't watched it yet!

Michaell · April 2018

texases said:
Aw, man, SPOILER ALERT! I haven't watched it yet!

Oh, crap.

I'm sorry to have ruined it for you.

Still, you should watch it. Having had two MINIs in the family, it was a great show to watch.

Mr_Shiftright · April 2018

Michaell said:

Mr_Shiftright said:
That's over and above the $3K I suspect. Sure, while you're "in there" (and you are REALLY in there), you'd do the water pump, change out the oil in the supercharger, and of course this is the perfect time to do belts and hoses. These cars use a dual-mass flywheel and that needs replacing as well---and of course the pilot bushing, the flywheel guide pins, and TO bearing and clutch slave.

So unless your car is worth well over $5,000, you'd think twice about doing all this. You'd probably be better off just buying another used one that's newer and has fewer miles.

So, no clutch job on the MINI in last night's episode, but they did do the 100K service, which was an exhaustive list, including the supercharger oil. Was fascinating to watch, even though I am fairly mechanically incompetent.

Yes the supercharger oil is somewhat tedious, but not too, too bad. I've never done it. This must be an older Mini if it has a supercharger. If they had to do a clutch, and it was a supercharged car, they'd be working for nothing come resale. I hope they know the market for these cars.

Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

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