Subaru Crew - Future Models

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  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Fair enough, Bob, I haven't even read it yet. I just like playing devil's advocate. Heck, they chose the Forester in the only comparison it's ever competed in with C&D.

    A UK article had a turbo with 215hp reaching 60mph in 5.9s, so a similar US version ought to break into the 5's as well.

    5's? Sign me up! Mine's closer to 9!

    -juice
  • alingaling Member Posts: 598
    Yup, I agree. When I visited the Acura dealerships to test drive the MDX, all of them already started saying "Motor Trend says that this is the best SUV sold in North America". And of course, they had coloured reprints of the MT SUV of the year report for distribution.

    Personally, I don't see how the RX300 could have beaten the ML320. I don't see how the QX4 (based on a design which made its debut in 1996!!!) could tie the ML320. In any case, it's not like I'll be selling my ML and running out to get an X5 or MDX, or even the RX. I would rather buy a Subaru first! ;-)

    Drew/aling
    Townhall Community Leader/Vans Conference
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I'm not sure I agree with C&D on their conclusions either.

    Certainly is food for discussion though.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Drew: I'm sure it's because the RX has softer leather! ;) Never mind the ML's extra power and low range.

    Here's a thought: how do you guys think the VDC would've ranked in that comparo?

    OK, it's not an SUV, but it seems like they rated them according to how they drive on the road, so they're basically 4WD station wagons.

    -juice
  • alingaling Member Posts: 598
    I think the main point is that people's personal wants/needs in a vehicle do not necessarily match with C&D's own wants/needs and test methodology, so it ultimately comes down to your own choice. Look at the X5 for example. With only 16+ cu.ft of cargo room with the rear seats up, it has much less utility than the Forester!!

    Yup, it's certainly food for disucssion. The X5 owners are already debating this issue. Comments like the MDX is simply an AWD Honda minivan have already started surfacing ;-). Then again, should the X5, a vehicle that the manufacturer have gone out of their way to call an SAV, have even been included?

    Drew/aling
    Townhall Community Leader/Vans Conference
  • alingaling Member Posts: 598
    The ML is now available (in the designo edition) with "soft as a baby's bottom" Nappa leather :-) The same stuff that is standard equipment on the S500 sedan.

    The H6 wagon would've probably done well if they took utility more into account. Just look at the X5 (!), as mentioned above. Of course, the wagon would also beat every single SUV in the test with its far superior fuel economy.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Even though it seems they graded the vehicles based more on normal usage, they did have some pretty difficult terrain, judging by the pictures. Lots of mud, hilly, etc.

    It may have been too severe for the Outback!?!?

    Bob
  • alingaling Member Posts: 598
    Not with Dave behind the wheel ;-)

    Drew/aling
    Townhall Community Leader/Vans Conference
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    with the Outback lie primarily with its poor angles of approach and departure. Judging by some of the pictures, I could see the H-6 getting hung up in some places.

    The MDX, X-5, etc., are all pretty good in those respects.

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    The X-5 angle of departure can't be very good, there is like ground effects below the tail pipes in the rear. Not to mention the $700 of labor to install a trailer hitch (the rear bumper and dual exhaust needs to be removed)

    It was funny I was perusing through the C&D site when looking for that report, and the one writeup of the Trooper they had (1998 model) said it was on par with the more expensive ML320 which I thought was pretty impressive.

    For $26K you can't beat the Trooper LS w/skylight no matter what anybody says. (My buddy just got that price quoted to him 5 min. ago from a dealer)

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    vehicles have better angles of approach/departure than the Outback. They all also have more ground clearance, and probably better breakover angles too.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Drew: if the Bimmer is a sports activity vehicle, Toyota makes a recreational active vehicle, Honda makes a comfortable runabout vehicle, and Pontiac makes a sport recreation vehicle, doesn't anybody make an SUV any more? 8^)

    Ah, yes, fearless Dave. Heck, his Stromunged boxer 4 may even keep up!

    So, paisan, how do you feel about the Trooper? ;)

    Isn't it funny how these mags test them off road, and then those results don't factor much into the results? It's as if they have to validate the term SUV, and prove they're not wimps.

    Ridiculous. Either test it and count the scores, or don't bother.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    The new upcoming Jaguar X-Type sedan will offer AWD as standard. It's aimed at the Audi A4, BMW 3-Series, and Mercedes C-Class.

    I would be willing to bet that we will see more AWDs from Germany to compete with the new Jag, not too far down the road. If that does come to pass, these vehicles will also become additional "fringe" competition for the VDC. Subaru has said their going after the "Entry-level" luxury market with the LL Bean/VDC, which is where these vehicles live.

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    It'll probably suffer from the same il fate as the S-Type. FORD input! My condolences to the future Jag AWD owners...

    -mike ;)
  • alingaling Member Posts: 598
    The C-class will have AWD for 2002, and the BMW 3-series is already available with AWD (325xi, 330xi). FWIW, MB seems to be going after Audi, with AWD (all launched at the same time as the C-class 4-matic) planned for the S-class flagship, the CLK-class coupe/cabrio, and as before, the E-class sedan/wagon. This leaves only the SLK and the CL-coupe as being the only two vehicles in MB's N.American lineup w/o available 4-matic. As mentioned a few months ago, the next generation BMW 7-series (all new for 2002) will be available with AWD.

    The Jaguar X-type (I really like the exterior) is based on the all new Euro Ford Mondeo platform. Since this platform was designed to be FWD and AWD and Jaguar refused to have a FWD Jaguar (long time customers would probably balk at the thought as well), they stuck with the AWD configuration. My guess is that it will be similar to the MB and BMW AWD systems, with a major RWD torque bias (about 40% front/60% rear).

    Drew/aling
    Townhall Community Leader/Vans Conference
  • ramonramon Member Posts: 825
    on the road, the new WRX will humiliate them all AWD sedans. It doesn't become car of the decade in Europe for nothing... ;-)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Ford of Europe has proven it can tune cars for sporty European tastes, but none of those products have matched the quality of the Japanese.

    An AWD Jag, plus the 325ix, A4 Quattro, and 4Motion all offer competition, but none can match the LL Bean model's price.

    Finally saw that C&D article, and the VDC could really hold its own. If it hits 60 in 8.5s like Subaru says, it would fall just one tick out of first place. That plus handling numbers at the top, all with a price at the bottom.

    The WRX is a niche vehicle and certainly will embarass much pricier AWD competitors, but the H6 is going to pay the bills.

    -juice
  • alingaling Member Posts: 598
    I just noticed that the VW Bora 4-motion (which is the Jetta here) has just been released in Germany. It uses the same Haldex-based AWD system as the Audi TT coupe. Should be pretty interesting if it makes it here! Check out www.vwvortex.com for more info.

    Drew/aling
    Townhall Community Leader/Vans Conference
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Sounds good. The Jetta is a nice platform.

    It's actually VW's system, which the Audi borrows (since it's on the Golf platform).

    They've had V6 powered Golfs with AWD for a while. We never get the most interesting variations (including Subarus).

    -juice
  • alingaling Member Posts: 598
    Hmm, I didn't know it was the VW's system. The Passat uses the A4's Quattro setup, but the A3 and TT and the Golf use the Haldex AWD system. I believe that Haldex is lighter than the Quattro, but doesn't have the same permanent 50/50 split.

    Yes, we never get the interesting variations. I for one, would like to see the VW Golf 4-motion or the Audi A3 in N.America. The covered the latter on MotorVision a few weeks ago, and even showed it doing donuts in the snow (in Germany)!! They claim that they were testing the limits of the car ;-)

    Drew/aling
    Townhall Community Leader/Vans Conference
  • scarwafscarwaf Member Posts: 33
    Drove the H6 yesterday here in Thousand Oaks. She drove as sweet as she looks. I felt very comfortable. She handled beautifully especially on sweeping turns. The power for me was suffcient. I compared it with the VW Passate 4 motion. (I test drove the Passate a few days ago). My impression is that the Subaru is superior in all areas. Can't wait till I get my VDC. It should be arriving soon, I hope. I'm sharing my wife's Honda Accord EX V6. That's quite a car also. I just hope my wife doesn't bug me for the VDC.
    Bob
  • amishraamishra Member Posts: 367
    I get to test drive a new Canadian model H6-VDC tonight.. my review shortly in the next few days.

    It's also pouring out, so that should be fun :)

    Just hope I don't get envious, and feel the urge to upgrade from my H4 OB...

    ash
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The A3 wouldn't sell well here, and my even hurt Audi's image, so I doubt we'll see it. An S3 in limited numbers could be interesting competition for the WRX, though. :)

    Still haven't heard of a VDC owners picking one up yet. Someone picked up an LL Bean already, though. Any others?

    Ken: did you brother decide yet?

    ash: perfect weather! ;) We have rain, too.

    -juice
  • alingaling Member Posts: 598
    Be sure to go to an empty parking lot and floor the gas while turning full lock :-)

    I can tell you that a stabiliy control equipped vehicle is a heck of a lot easier to drive in the snow. You won't have to worry as much about the rear end coming around (juice enjoys the occasional fishtailing, of course ).

    Sell the MX6 and OB and get the VDC H6 :-)

    Enjoy!
    Drew/aling
    Townhall Community Leader/Vans Conference
  • alingaling Member Posts: 598
    I haven't seen Ken around here recently too. Wonder what happened to him? Didn't he say that he was popping off to Japan sometime this year? Maybe he's there right now oogling over the Blisten Subie :-)

    The last I heard from him, his brother was debating between the MDX, the ML320 and the VDC H6. All very interesting choices ;-)

    I agree that the A3 wouldn't fit into Audi's upscale image. But then again, MB will be debuting its US$28-30+K C230 Kompressor coupe a year from now. If you haven't already seen it, here it is. What do you think? It's a very different kind of Benz to say the least. I don't think it will really compete with any of Subaru's offerings though.
  • ksheddkshedd Member Posts: 10
    I am looking at the 2001 Accord EX V6, as well as an Outback and even a Legacy GT 2001.

    I would like your feedback on personal and subjective opinions of them.


    The 2001 EX V6 now adds traction control, and a decent set of snow tires in the winter, will not equal Outback, but wouldn't be too bad either. I live in the midwest.

    Outback has several things over the Accord as well as the Accord several things for us, won't lose sleep on either of our choices. Just nice to get personal opinions by those that have driven/drive both vehicles.

    I do not want to pay the H6 admission fee right now, so that will not be an option.

    The EX V6 can be had for around 150-200 over invoice, as well as the Outbacks. I have had discussions with both dealers.
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    HONDA OVER SUBARU:

    V6 power and torque, since you are looking at the H4
    um...NVH? not now.
    ergonomics? Not anymore.
    Build quality? No longer.

    Plus the OB is a wagon. FWIW, My mom has a V6 Accord and wishes now that she had looked at the OB.
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    Then again, I am not a fan of Soob's Automatic tranny.
  • ramonramon Member Posts: 825
    i'm not a fan of automatic period! =)
  • scarwafscarwaf Member Posts: 33
    I hope I can help you in your decision making. For me these cars have 2 distinct different uses and I like them both very much.
    Let me say this about the Honda. It's very swift and reliable. It handles very well in traffic and it can hold its own on our freeways.
    The Subaru is just as reliable. It's not as swift but overall it rides and handles better. I also believe it's more comfortable. It allows me to do more things such as hauling and going on camping trips. It's also luxurious enough to take your friends to dinner.
    If I was living in the midwest I would chose the H4 because I don't think there would be the need for the H6 but that's my opinion. I guess what it really boils down to is versatility, a bit more comfort and handling.
    I hope that helps.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Ford's the best thing that could have happened to Jaguar and Aston Martin. The current crop of Jags/AMs are superb cars. If it wasn't for Ford, these firms would surely die.

    I only hope GM is half as good to Subaru as Ford has been to Jaguar.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    has a cover story on the new AWD Jaguar X-Type. It says thery're hoping to sell it around $30K. That's right in the VDC ballpark.

    Bob
  • amishraamishra Member Posts: 367
    Yeah, I heard about that X-type. Jaguar is saying "it's not for safety, it's for performance."

    My dealer is a Jag/Sube dealer, so that should be interesting with the VDC going upmarket, and the Jag going downmarket + AWD on their entry level model? (okay, exactly how does that work?)

    Prices are suppossed to be competetive with 328s, which I think is a bit higher than 30k.

    ash
  • ksheddkshedd Member Posts: 10
    and I was wondering if I could ask a few more questions.

    Having tested both, I realize the pick-up advantage in the Honda is noticeable. My wife's Camry XLE V6 has that same feel of power on demand vs. the 4 cyl. vehicles we have owned in the past. Of course not similar to old my Turbo Z, but that is apples to oranges.

    I don't actually care if my vehicle has a moonroof, and could live with our without leather.

    How have people felt on taking their OB on long trips on the highway? It would be nice to not just put the vacation miles on one vehicle, but rather two, on the times we do not rent a minivan for that.

    I was also looking at the Legacy GT SW, but there again the dual-moonroof comes into play, but so does several other additions over the Legacy L.

    Where I live, after starting to look for them, I have only seen 2 OB in a 4 week period, and that is around a large metropolitan area. Not so sure on future resale value in my area, but that is of course, another matter.

    Price wise, they will be similar, since both are near invoice. Of course, the EX V6 will have quite a few more creature comforts. What I would be interested in, would be an EX V6 station wagon, with AWD thrown-in.

    Having looked at the Audi, VW, even Volvo, price was not the deciding factor. We tend to live well below our means, with no debt, so I must confess to looking for value, but stay with quality, thus these are my 2 finalists.

    I will also say, we have 2 small children.

    I have already test-driven most minivans before this, and was not all that satisfied with what I felt vs. the price, and I drove most of em 2 or 3 times.

    In every day use, is there not much in reserve from the OB?

    Also, what are the real world results for turning radius, and tight turning patterns? In my 2 test drives, I did not feel it was as tight as the size of the vehicle, could allow.

    And yes, it will be an automatic.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I'm sure the Jag's "street price" will be a bit higher than the VDC. But it will be close enough to make one perhaps think twice.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Having just driven a new Outback H-6 - and having been somewhat critical of it - that's the vehicle I'm recommending!

    Sound odd? Not really. You've said that price is not the issue, and that you want more power than the H-4 Outback - something more in the V6 power Accord/Camry range. The new H-6 LL Bean or H-6 VDC would be very good choices. The H-6 Subarus, while somewhat pricey, are much less than an AWD Volvo.

    The H-4 Outbacks have always come up a bit short when it comes to power. The new H-6 Outback pretty much cures that complaint. It's not a rocket, mind you. But it is better than the H-4.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Anybody have any info on the Tokyo Auto Show? It should be occurring around now. They just had the Tokyo "Commercial Vehicle" show, but no mention of the "Car" show.

    Also, anybody hear of anything new from Subaru at the recent SEMA show? I haven't seen anything regarding Subaru at SEMA, other than they had a booth.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I had heard that there would be more 4-Matic MBs coming out - both C-Class & S-Class. In a sense that was what I was referring to.

    I also wouldn't be surprised if Audi goes 100% AWD. Although I've read nothing to that effect.

    It just makes sense. AWD is the way to go.

    Although, the more AWD cars that show up, the less distinctive Subarus become.

    Bob
  • kate5000kate5000 Member Posts: 1,271
    Back in 1997 we have chosen Honda Accord EX over Subaru Forester (also considered OB), and regretted that decision ever since. Our Honda turned out to be not so reliable as we expected. Just today my husband told me that "airbag" red light comes and stays on, and that car only got 40K. Plus, engine is too noisy on acceleration.

    I bought Forester 2001 S+ for myself this year, and am so far very happy with it. Needless to say, hubby is trying to steal my ride all the time...
  • kate5000kate5000 Member Posts: 1,271
    Number of posts in "Escape/Trubute problems" thread reached 100. Way to go.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    You are joking right? All I know is the same cheap plastic rear trunk trim on the contour! Not to mention Jag had to stop selling the V6 version of the S-type because of QC problems with the engine...Nuff said

    -mike
    (putting in my daily dose of anti-FORD)
  • texsubarutexsubaru Member Posts: 242
    Well, that Chevy Borrego is certainly, uh, interesting looking. Doesn't look altogether practical -- despite the "midgate" and cargo bed -- but it certainly is more attractive than the Aztek.
  • originalbitmanoriginalbitman Member Posts: 920
    There is a very comprehensive review of the GT wagon at epinions.com:

    http://www.epinions.com/auto-review-7412-BACE6BB-39C393E8-prod1

    I have one and have recently returned from a 8500 mile trip with it. Very comfortable, fun and economical (28.3mpg). I would recommend the 5 speed though.

    Bit
  • barresa11barresa11 Member Posts: 277
    Careful my friend..you are beginning to show a bit of uncharacteristic ignorance about the auto world. Ford has indeed helped Jaguar in its reliability ratings. Regardless of how you personally feel about Ford, this is a truth that is backed up by industry briefs, customer surveys, and JD Powers. Of course, you could argue that Jaguar had no where to go but up w/someone (anyone's?) help...:-) Just to throw another wrench in your comment about Ford and Jag arrangement, Jaguar rates much higher than Subaru or Isuzu according to JD Powers. In fact, I believe it's in the top 10. I'm not posting to defend Ford but to inject a little reality about the some industry facts.

    Stephen
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    All I know is that:

    1) the S-type has the same cheap plastic/painted chrome trim on the trunk as my buddy's Piece-o-crap contour

    2) it also has the same engine as the Lincoln LS that has major problems with the cranks/rods/bottom end (not sure which parts exactly, but they are major components) Jaguar has stopped selling the V6 in the S-type due to this

    As for JD Power and his associates, MT, C&D, Consumer Reports, and all the magazines, I don't put much faith in their reports either, cause as we have discussed on here before, they have rated vehicles much higher and lower than the facts would dictate. I'm not too knowledgeable about Jags (not my style car, nor in my pricerange) so if they were at the bottom, they could very well have been helped by FORD's money.

    -mike

    PS: Mustang Recalls abounded this week :)
  • tincup47tincup47 Member Posts: 1,508
    Although my wife and I both love our Subaru, I have had more warranty services in the 14,000 miles for our 2001, than in the same time frame for the last 4 Fords I have owned. Both problems have been minor and fixed promptly, but if I were as picky as some people I could be on a "Subaru Problems" board trashing Subaru. When problems have occurred on my Fords I had the same good treatment at the Dealership I use as at the Subaru Dealership I go to. The Escape has had a number of Issues so far, but I do believe once they get them straightened out you will see Ford selling 10 to 20 thousand per month. If Fords were as bad as you say, they would have died at the market place years ago.
  • FrankMcFrankMc Member Posts: 228
    Ford Escape's are attractive, and there are plenty of Ford dealers around to sell them, I anticipate if they improve the quality to become closer to average they will sell the heck out of them. Now, I would also say that just because they can sell alot of them that doesn't make them the best choice. I wonder how many Foresters would be sold if they were sold by Chevrolet or Ford with their vast sales network. I have always said that more competition is good for all, I was just hoping that the Ford launch would be better. I know a number of people who were interested until in an Escape until they heard about all the problems.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I'm going off personal experience with at least 10 Fords and 10 different Ford Dealers in the Northeast. Yes, there are inconsistenties among all dealers, makes, models, brands. But almost everyone who I know that has owned a FORD other than a ford pickup truck, has had some kind of transmission problem, and had bad service @ their dealers. Escorts, Contours (3), T-birds, Lincolns, Cougars, Grand Marquis, Tarus (2), Sable (2)

    And yes, a dealer's network has a lot to do with sales, don't forget these are the same sheep that buy anything put in front of them ;)

    -mike
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Every unsatisfied customer will tell 100 people, whereas a satisfied customer will tell only 1!

    :)

    -mike
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    Allegedly, a little more than speculation. Allegedly. :)
    http://www.impreza-rs.com/NonCGI/Forum1/HTML/015160.html
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