Subaru Crew - Future Models

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  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    You must have been my co-pilot, or was it vice-versa?

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    LOL, "paisan adults"! :o)

    Ken: welcome back! Thanks for the brutally honest reviews. But you forgot the most important part - did you drive a WRX?

    Randy: the Legacy matched the Passat in IIHS tests, so overall safety scores are very good.

    Also, the FWD Passat is a mid-size, but the 4Motion is a compact because the AWD system eats up a lot of interior room. So apples to apples, the Passat isn't any bigger.

    Frank: 1902 was a beauty! My sentiments exactly! Plus the fact that ad revenues from new models are much higher.

    Bob: 2.5l power boost? Probably. I'd like to see the variable valve timing make it over here, with 170hp or more (plus more torque). If they're going to have a performance image, they can't sit idle while Honda and Toyota market that technology to the masses.

    I don't think the Forester will get DRLs until 2003, though. I was actually surprised the 2001 didn't get them.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Juice - I think all cars sold here have to have DRLs by law for 2002.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Really?

    There's almost always a loophole, though. Like 80% of the fleet has to meet bla bla bla...

    I expect the new Impreza will, so the Forester would be the last to get them.

    -juice
  • miksmimiksmi Member Posts: 1,246
    Hehe, I love your new math, WDB. I hate doing "me too" posts, but since Florida's votes are being recounted, why not mine?

    I think, with a manual transmission, even a portly (3,440 lb) 00 Legacy GT wagon and the H-4 is plenty of juice (hehe) for my needs. Keep in mind, this is coming from a guy that drove my, err, wife's car round and round a track (me + instructor). (Also the guy who's daily driver is a 93 Civic, but let's not go there.) Do I want more power? Sure, who wouldn't? Is it adequate? Yes, even spirited (again w/5MT) as per WDB.

    As we all know, the 2.5l SOHC H-4 Phase II produces 165hp@5600rpm & 166lbs-ft@4000rpm. But that torque comes on early. My sister and I test drove a 00 Outback wagon and she was surprised how fast it moved off the line (even the automatic). She commented that the Passat downshifted more smoothly when she tromped on the gas. (She ended up getting a Toyota Sienna van because she, as a soccer mom, decided the OB's 5 seats weren't enough.)

    As Bob and Ken pointed out in their H-6 test drives, I think where Subaru falls down is the automatic transmission. Subaru needs tranny improvement: 1) smoother downshifting (go drive a Passat if you want to experience smooth downshifting) and 2) 5-speed gearbox for the automatic. (And while I'm asking, a 6-speed gearbox for the manual. ;P )

    This Subie power thing is more of an image thing, IMHO. WDB, I concur.

    And as per paisan and WDB, this is just my opinion.

    ..Mike

    ..Mike

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think 106mph down that straight at the track is certainly "adequate". ;)

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Well my escort got up to speed, over time... Most of todays cars can top out well over 100mph, but the question is how long does it take to get there? Maybe I just have a problem with my right foot? :) There never seems to be enough power off the line...

    -mike
  • abhidharmaabhidharma Member Posts: 93
    Juice, according to Auto World Weekly (I've only started reading their mag, so I don't know how reliable they are) the Passat is slightly larger in all around passenger volume, and significantly larger in storage space.

    Regarding safety, how is IIHS testing different than NHTSA? Your comment implies (to me) that you believe that the NHTSA rating (of 4 stars vs. the Passat's 5 stars) is not as relevant as the IIHS results.

    Randy
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Randy: the FWD Passat is, but look at a 4Motion and you'll see what I mean. It loses that advantage.

    NHTSA does a full frontal 35mph test. IIHS conducts a 40mph front offset test, which is much tougher because of much higher kinetic energy plus the challenge of approaching it from an angle.

    But here is a better source that summarizes all crash tests, from Japan, Australia, Europe, and the US:

    http://www.crashtest.com/subaru/index.htm

    You'll find that both Legacy and Passat score Good or Excellent in every category, every test. Both are safe vehicles with enviable records, with neither showing a distinct advantage.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I like the way you think! :)

    Bob
  • abhidharmaabhidharma Member Posts: 93
    Good information and rationale, juice, thanks.

    Randy
  • ramonramon Member Posts: 825
    paisan, did you test drive an auto GT? they are slow.... actually all autos are slow compared to it's manual variants.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Depends on the benchmark. The auto Forester Motorweek tested hit 60 in 9.1 seconds. Same time exactly for the Washington Post, and close enough at 9.3s for Consumer's Guide (all automatics).

    That's about the same as 5 speeds do, even better than many 5 speeds with the Phase I engine did.

    Also, for its class, that's darn good. That's very close to 6 cylinder competitors.

    -juice
  • kate5000kate5000 Member Posts: 1,271
    I saw a few new RAV4s on the road... Boy, am I glad I did not buy one! What's the deal at Toyota with a hunchback roofline? First Echo, now RAV4. From the behind, it reminded me -- gasp -- the Aztek.

    Subaru if you hear me, please keep new Forester nice and square, PLEASE!
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    is the new Grand(est?) Vitara XL7, with three rows of seats. Of all the Suzuki SUVs, this one has, in my opinion, the best chance of being a sales success - simply because it's the least toy-like of their SUV vehicles.

    The larger 2.7L engine is still too small, it still has a live rear axle, and part-time 4WD - but the price/size are right, and it's not ugly.

    http://www.thecarconnection.com/consumer/Reviews/SUVS/001113_MeadSuzukiXL7.asp?idSection=06&idCategory=6

    Also - the "Car Connection" site feels that the Subaru/Chevy Borrego has a reasonable chance of seeing production by mid-decade.

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    That Suzuki looks pretty good. Although a 2.7 is a bit small. Boxy = Good! I vote to keep the Forester Boxy, like my Trooper :)

    -mike
  • juzsumguyjuzsumguy Member Posts: 5
    I am soon to be your average just some guy, previously Steve Suzuki, turbo Forester owner extraordinaire. After three years of driving a 236 hp turbo Forester in Japan, I'll soon be heading back to the States (and probably be purchasing an Outback). I'm experiencing withdrawal pains already, and trying to get in as much driving time as possible these last few weeks. Honey, can I go to the store and pick up some milk and tofu--Please!

    Let me give a quick review of my silver 1998 automatic. Perhaps this isn't the best forum, as it is not a future model, but considering the US "may" get the 275 hp WRX which has the same base engine, it may give you something to salivate over.

    There are a few items standard on my 98 model which I think have only recently appeared on US models. Minor items, but nice touches--built in temp gauge, one-touch digital auto climate control, smoked privacy glass on five windows, and the antennae built into one of the back side windows.

    The real appeal is, of course, the 2.0 liter turbo. Manual or auto was a difficult decision--finally came down to my dislike of Subaru's manual, and, what the heck, 236 hp is plenty even with an auto (so I rationalized). Of course, enough is never enough when it comes to hp, and there were many times I wish I had had the manual when I lived in rural Hokkaido; but sitting in Tokyo traffic I was glad for the auto.

    The auto and the turbo in normal driving were incredibly transparent. Whether on city streets or on the open highway, it is easy to regulate the throttle to give a strong but linear response of passing power without the need for a gear shift. Putting the pedal all the way to the floor, though, results in a quick downshift and near instantaneous passing power of the neck snapping kind. I can literally feel all four wheels pushing and pulling, keeping the car on track.

    Japanese magazines do not print 0-60 times, so I did a hand-time test of mine to 100 km (62 mph). The result? A tick under 7 seconds. (Again, hand-timed using the vehicle's own speedo, so accuracy is a question.) Even that is misleading, as there is a slight lag from a standing start. The auto works well, shifting close to the 7,000 rpm redline. It pulls smoothly and strongly well past 100 mph, non stop delivery of power.

    With 32,000 miles, 3/4 of that in Hokkaido, the remaining in and (mostly) around Tokyo, the car is as tight as when I first took delivery. No rattles, no squeaks, and zero problems with the engine. I mean zero. If the WRX comes with this engine, do not expect the first year teething problems which have plagued recent models such as the Tribute/Excape, or even the Focus. I won't even go into the usefulness of the AWD while living in the coldest, iciest area of Japan, or the utility of design, which you are all familiar with.

    Thanks for your indulgence in this long post, may all your dreams be filled with dancing WRXs!
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Thanks for the interesting review of the turbo Forester.

    Questions:
    Does the turbo require any special care? Meaning, do you have to let it spin down before turning the engine off, or more frequent oil changes? Does it require premium fuel? Is it as easy to "live" with as a normally aspirated engine?

    Bob
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    One of the cool things I was able to get my hands on during my trip to Japan is the promotional video for the Impreza.

    The 30 minute video features professional drivers taking the WRX STi RA along with two other Impreza trims around the famous Nurbrugring track in Germany.

    The main test car they used was a silver WRX STi RA. Looked veeeerrry sweet. The aggresive airdame and covered fogs detract from the roundness of the headlights.

    Each driver had slightly different comments as they took the Impreza down the rain-covered track at 100+mph but they all commented on:

    - The extremely stiff body and well-balanced suspension
    - Much improved rear suspension due to higher roll center
    - Excellent braking
    - Engine needs to be kept between 4000 and 8000 RPM (yes, it redlines at 8000) for max performance
    - The 6-speed manual is well mated for the engine

    One driver mentioned that there are only 3 mass-produced cars made in Japan that are worthy of racing. They are the NSX, Skyline GTR and Impreza.

    Made me want one!

    Ken
  • kate5000kate5000 Member Posts: 1,271
    I'm salivating already... even Russia gets Turbo Foresters, why not US?
  • miksmimiksmi Member Posts: 1,246
    I believe the word on the street is combination of 1) cost of submitting an engine for an EPA emissions test and 2) re-engineering if you don't pass. Also, I imagine SoA doesn't think there's a bread-and-butter market for to justify the certification expense. SoA and FHI still remember the 80s and the complaints from turbo owners that didn't maintain them. Sure, the consumers' misdeeds caused the turbo problems but in America we litigate our irresponsibility upon others.

    Just my USD 0.017 after attorney fees.

    ..Mike

    ..Mike

  • juzsumguyjuzsumguy Member Posts: 5
    Bob--The turbo is absolutely transparent in everyday use and maintenance. Warm-up, warm-down is the same, as are all maintenance intervals (my handbook recommends 10,000 km oil changes for either engine).

    Yes, it uses premium fuel, however, so does the 2.5 liter version in Japan. The 2.0 turbo (auto) lists at 25 mpg, the 2.5 liter (auto) is rated at 26 mpg.

    Premium fuel is about US$ 3.89/gallon, regular is $3.54.

    The Japan spec turbo is not the same as the European available turbo, the latter has only slightly more hp than the US spec 2.5 l 166 hp.

    Interestingly enough, the 2.5 l engine version is MORE EXPENSIVE than the 2.0 turbo. There is only one trim level of the 2.5 l, and it is slightly more upscale, but that is a cruise control (next to useless in Japan!) and wood trim pieces, from what I can tell. Even the moonroof is still not standard. It is hard to understand why anyone would buy the 2.5 in this market. I haven't seen sales stats, who knows, maybe no one does.

    Ken--your last line was "Made me want one!". Don't you mean, "One of each"!

    If you can find back copies of Road and Track at your library, check out July of 1999. Test of the Nissan Skyline vs Diablo vs 911 C4, and buried on page 70 (not even listed on the contents page!) is a one page review of the Impreza 22B-STi.

    Highlights--Impreza, 2,800 lbs and 0-60 mph in 4.9 seconds. Skyline, 3,700 lbs and 0-60 in 5.2 seconds, 60-0 in 120 ft,. Porsche 911 Carrera 4 Cabriolet, 3,480 lbs and 0-60 of 5.6 seconds, 60-0 in 126 ft.

    Steve
  • mtnshoppermtnshopper Member Posts: 58
    Thank you, test drivers, for sharing your thoughts after you've driven the VDC or LL Bean. I won't be test driving until I get closer to purchasing several months down the road, so I have to drive vicariously for now. This forum is very interesting and informative.

    I'm curious though...has anyone tried accelerating the new H6 with the A/C on? (Or if anyone drives one, please try it out and let us know how it feels with the A/C on.) I've only driven an H4 OB rental once, but never had the A/C on. One of my co-workers remarked that his wife's H4 OB Limited (automatic) is a bit of a dog with the A/C on? I'm not looking for a race car, but I don't want to have an irritated V8 driver riding my rear bumper over a winding mountain pass either.

    Thanks again. I'm enjoying the posts and learning a lot --- mtnshopper
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I believe in Japan there is a surcharge for any vehicles sold with an engine larger than 2.0l, I vaguely remember someone posting that on here or elsewhere a while back when the first wave of WRX craze hit. Turbos traditionally need to take higher octane fuel and shorter(or more meticulous) oil change intervals. I had a Lebaron GTS 2.2l Turbo and loved that car (except for the tranny problems and other QC issues)

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    When I drove the LL Bean I drove, it was in the 50º range outside, and the climate control was on "Auto," and set to 72º.

    I don't think you will lose much if any power with the a/c on. If there is any lose, it will certainly be much less than you would get from the H-4. I wouldn't worry about it.

    Bob
  • francophilefrancophile Member Posts: 667
    I have a Legacy 2.5L H4, and although I notice when the AC comes on it is really quite minor. I would imagine the H6 would make it even more minor.

    Cheers,
    -wdb
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Bob: the XL7 should boost Suzuki sales. 3 rows of seats are a first-in-class, too bad Subaru isn't there yet.

    It won't be fast, though. 170 horses to pull 3582 lbs will be a real chore. The auto weighs over 3700 lbs! Still, it stands out.

    Steve: at least you're coming just as the turbos start to arrive. A WRX wagon may keep you from singing the blues!

    Thanks for the reviews. Also thanks to Ken for keeping us in the loop with the JDM info.

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    only 165hp on the OB Limited Wagon, I believe they are in the 3700# range?

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I dont't have the brochure in front of me, but I believe it's around 3500#, give or take a little. The H-6s are closer to 3700#.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    If I'm not mistaken, the turbo Forester does not put out quite as much power as the turbo WRX. It sounds similar to what Volvo offers - both a low-boost turbo, and a high-boost turbo. The Forester gets the low-boost version, while the WRX gets the high-boost version.

    Both get the job done just fine. :)

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Per the brochure, OBs start at 3425 and reach 3575 for a fully loaded Limited Wagon.

    But never mind that, the point is the XL7 is supposed to be able to carry 7 persons. You (paisan) felt the Legacy GT was slow with 5 adults, imagine the Suzuki fully loaded.

    The Euro-market Forester Turbo makes only 168hp, but the difference in torque is much bigger and so it's a lot faster than our 2.5l. I think there are also 215hp and 240hp editions in different markets.

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    7x200 = roughly 1500lbs on top of any gear and a trailer, ouch!

    I'm just too power hungry...

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think that given the luke-warm (so far) reception for the H6, that it should quickly be made available with a 5 speed and in lesser models, and that they ought to slap a supercharger on to the VDC model to keep it unique.

    How 'bout it? 260 horses, just to one-up the S4 Avant?

    -juice
  • abhidharmaabhidharma Member Posts: 93
    Great ideas!
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I think the new H-6, as it currently stands, will satisfy most customers. It's just us car nuts who want more.

    And... being a true car nut that I am, I second Juice's suggestion! :)

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I third Juice's suggestion, and put it in a Legacy Coupe! AKA SVX.

    300hp, 3.0l H6 TT, 50 series 17" tires, mmmm yeah!

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That's just it - the VDC should appeal to car nuts! Well, at least technology nuts, which tend to be car nuts, too!

    If Minan's supercharger for the 2.5l yields 230hp, or an increase of almost 40%, the H6 could make close to 300 horses. 260hp was actually conservative!

    -juice
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    Someone at the i-club spotted a herd of WRX's.
    Where's Patti?? I say a Townhall members only meet at SoA HQ for a WRX preview. :-)
    Dennis
    http://www.impreza-rs.com/NonCGI/Forum1/HTML/015294.html
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    when Ford first introduced their new 4.6 OHC V8 in the Crown Victoria and F-150 pickups a few years ago, they took a VERY conservative approach at first. The power ratings were very low. Now that the engines have proven themselves to be reliable, we're seeing more power with each new model year. I think Ford wanted to make sure there aren't any problems with this (then) all-new engine.

    I think Subaru is doing the same thing. I'd be very surprised if we don't see more powerful versions of the H-6 in the not too distant future, once it has proven itself.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I remember Glenn Wallace (newimpreza.com) saying that they were going to be introduced in Georgia to the press this month.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    time to mount your ponys, and round up a posse. We need to give chase.

    Let me see, I think I can be in Georgia in about 9 hours. Maybe the tracks will still be fresh enough for Annie to pick up the scent...

    Bob
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    No need to round up a posse. I'm sure that they will be at Road Atlanta at least part of the time.

    -Colin
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yeah, we can have a WRX intro, let's see...where, what about, MY HOUSE! Bring 'em on!

    Hello, Patti? Heck, we'd CREATE an event to preview those! You MUST let us know! :)

    Glenn put a post on that thread if you read down long enough.

    I just cannot wait to hear American editors gushing about the Subaru's performance. Finally!

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Here's his response:

    "Yes, that's for the press launch next week.

    I posted a reply. 230BHP is the latest rumor, BTW!"

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    driving a WRX! The latest thread on that site, from the original poster, said that two (older) ladies were driving one of the cars. I hope I read that correctly.

    Boy, that's an image to behold!

    Glenn did post a thread, BTW.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    230 would be sweet!

    Now, just put the fender flares on a wagon, and let's start that "free WRX for the juiceman" program... ;)

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    To be overwhelmingly happy about the WRX. Knowing the US press, they'll try comparing it to a vette or something on a dry flat 0-60 drag strip. And they'll say "it could use some more acceleration to be truely competative" totally forgetting real world situations and curves...

    -mike
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    I believe 227HP is a pretty firm number.

    -Colin
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It'll finally be a numbers producing type of machine, though, too. Should be in the 6s to 60, which is best in class.

    Other Soobs are tuned for every day torque, and geared for cruising. That's why most need a 3rd gear to even reach 60. That 2nd shift costs a few tenths at least in terms of numbers (but mean nothing in the real world).

    I guess they'll compare it to the previous Eclipse, but the WRX is lighter and more powerful.

    227? Hmm, lemme think...I'll take it!

    Send donations to: the juiceman, 227 juice road, juiceville, JU 227-4-ME.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    wished for the 6-speed manual. They indicated the WRX revs a bit high for highway cruising.

    Bob
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