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Comments
The front end looks a lot like the new Hyundai Sante Fe or the Isuzu Vehicross IMHO.
So, talking "apples to apples", a fully equipped Lexus RX 300 (leather, Nak stereo, etc) can be had here for $53000 CDN including freight, delivery and dealer prep. The price Ash quoted was $44000 CDN for the VDC model (I don't know if freight and PDI were included, but let's say that they were) -- that works out to $9000 CDN difference, or $6000 US (IN CANADA).
So, for the equivalent of $6000 US, is the Subaru a better "value" than the RX 300? I won't know till I drive the new Sube. My point is that the Subaru is now not that far off from luxury car pricing, and so it had better be able to compete in that new arena.
The new price also puts it ABOVE the fully-loaded Passat V-6 GLX AWD wagon, BTW. And last year, when I talked the VW people, they were willing to discount $3000. Advantage, ON PAPER, to VW, although a comparo is really necessary to determine value, especially according to one's own driving priorities.
Given that part of our disagreement stems from the availability of pricing discounts (which are not as universal as you claim), I think this highlights a problem with Subaru's pricing strategy. IMO, the LIST prices are getting into luxury territory, where Subaru doesn't have established credentials (remember, I'm talking PERCEPTIONS here). I think they would be better served taking a page out of Acura's playbook, that is, establishing a lower list price (with lots of perceived value-added goodies) that would be a consistent coast-to-coast value.
So, "drum roll please" (to use your phrase), I might still consider the Subaru (because I'm familiar with their quality having driven one for many years), but I know that many people will bypass Subaru and go straight to VW, Volvo, or even Lexus, based on perceptions of value, luxury, and quality.
Randy
The informed will realize that it is a value, as was the SVX, and XT6, but the general public will not, and therefore it will likely die a horrible death, unless they significantly have incentives...
-mike
OK, if I step outside my personal reality, the differences are slightly smaller.
But what is the price of the Lexus name? Personally, no way I'd pay $6 grand for a nameplate, are you saying you would? I'm not sure if I'd pay $1 grand, to be honest.
You nailed it when you said "perceived", though. To me, the advantage has to be REAL.
The Soob will have a distinct power advantage over the VW, though the Passat is a fine competitor. VW also charges extra for the CD changer and for an auto tranny, though it does have an extra cog. Once again, though, the VDC is a better value.
Volvo's XC prices are supposed to drop slightly, but one with options will still hit $40k easily.
I'm not comfortable with Acura's dealers. They're charging full MSRP for some models, as you know. If anything, Acura should get the extra funds instead of greedy dealers, so the money is reinvested in new product.
I guess people shop by price, not by content. So they may indeed look at the alternatives you mention (missing many options), but I'd suggest they look at the LL Bean, or wait for an H6 GT without all the LTD equipment.
Used? I'm not sure Audi's reliability is up to par even when new, so used is too risky for me.
-juice
The VDC is targeting a very different customer, if you ask me. Think of it as a bargain E320 4Matic, or a poor man's loaded V70 XC.
None of the vehicles anyone's brought up as alternatives have dynamic stability control. You should use the LL Bean model for comparisons.
-juice
-juice
Cold weather package is standard as it on all Canadian OBs.
ash
The new Impreza follows that tradition to a "T."
The new Impreza appears to have a gentle wedge shape to the profile that is lacking in the current model. I find the wedge shape more appealing than not. To me the tail lights of the new model seem to be a bit awkward looking. Other than that I like it. I do like the oval headlights.
I think once we see it in person, especially the wagon (if the early photos of the wagon are accurate), we will be pleasantly surprised. I wonder what the coupe will look like, assuming there is one? There have been reports to the contrary. I find it hard to believe that they won't offer a coupe, however.
Bob
You aren't getting what randy and I are saying. What we are saying is that people will pay MORE for a Lexus or an ACURA because it has the name, not because it is better. Most people buy based on the name recognition, not actual facts. Just like the SVX was an exceptional value compared to the 300zx, Supra, and 1/2 dozen other sports cars, but it was a subaru. Subaru is pigeon holed as an econobox, and once they start jumping out of thier league into the Merc, and VW, and Audi, and Volvo ranges, people will say "it's only $3000 or $4000 more and i'll have an AUDI or Volvo"
You, randy, and I know the VDC is better, but that isn't what sells cars.
-mike
For one, the OB is marketted as an SUV alternative, which means it competes more against the Lexus RX, ML 320, Jeeps, and the likes. That's how Subaru markets it. Look at the brochure!
But anyway, let's compare the Passat.
a) The Passat's (or the Audi's A6) handling can't be matched unless you change the OB's tires (even then I'm not convinced)
b) the Passat not only has an extra notch on it's auto-gearbox, it's tiptronic. Which is a HUGE missing item on the Subaru. Sure you might say it's really not all that useful, but I had a blast driving it.
c) the quality of the materials in the GLX version will easily give the Subaru a run for it's money. It has real *wood* (not plood), dual-zone climate control, rain-sensitive wipers, the Monsoon sound system, and the list goes on
d) let's not forget the limited selection of colors available on the Subaru. This was almost one reason I didn't buy a Subaru in the first place. Really, 4 colors at each model level? and you have no choice to mix/match interior colors? They might as well just say, you can have any color, but it has to be black.
e) it has a sunroof in the *front* that opens fully, not just a gadget that tilts up
f) generally speaking I was not impressed with the interior ergonomics of the Passat as much as the Subarus .. but it has (for me at least) far more comfortable seats, and a telescoping steering wheel
g) then there's that question of perception. No question Subaru's are held in high esteem for their uniqueness and quality. But they are certainly not known for their refinement and luxury.
SOA has to be credited to give this a try. It'll be interesting to see how H6 models see, but I think they really need to have a backup plan.
After you read all this, some of you may wonder why I ended up buying a base 2000 Outback model. Because I think the base H4 OB is a real value for its dollar. I don't think the VDC H6 comes close.
Wagon sketches I saw a while ago (rumors run rampant) looked great. Let's hope.
paisan: I do hear you, believe me. I guess I'm correcting people that compare apples to melons.
Imagine the VDC is a caramelized apple a-la-mode with all the toppings. Now, the melon is plain, but it's organic and from an upscale store like Trader Joe's, though it costs 30% more.
A lot of people will come here to ask about the value of the VDC, and why Subaru charges so much. I think it's our duty to inform and protect (OK, I'm getting carried away, but you get my point).
People will come and rant about the VDC costing within $3 grand of the Lexus. We should politely point out the with the toppings, the apple simply tastes better, and the melon would actually cost a bunch more with all those toppings.
The H6 GT will arrive soon, and hopefully it'll be priced around $26k, so people have a lower priced benchmark.
-juice
PS I'd say the Trooper is a watermelon, with some, but not all, of the toppings.
The current Impreza is a great car, but it sure is BORING. If you pay attention it grows on you, but it is no way is it a looker that immediately gets your attention.
Subaru wants sales to go through the roof? I sure hope they gave it an aggressive look that a true sports coupe deserves.
-- ash
The VDC also has plenty of stuff missing from the Passat. The 4Motion has been slow in tests; in fact the GT-4 can outrun it in some tests. It also costs a bit more when you add options.
Consumer Reports surveys show the Outback has about 30% fewer problems than average. The V6 Passat has about 15% more problems than average. That's significant to me.
Finally, and here's what clinches it: the Passat's cup holders are awful
-juice
Quality and reliability for people who purchase cars at these price points is not a huge concern, because they usually end up leasing or trading their vehicles in every 2 or 3 years.
-- ash
ps. not trying to be the devils advocate, but it sure appears that way
I have to admit that I'd be reluctant to part with $44K for a Subaru wagon (sales tax would be an extra 17%!). This means that plus taxes and other silly little administrative charges, I'll have to fork up about CDN$51K+ for the VDC wagon! That's a heck of a lot of money for a Subaru. They should've done something to make the exterior at least a little more distinctive.
Drew
Jaguar was in deep trouble until Ford came along and helped them out. Sales are much higher now that they've got quality in check. Poor quality also hurt Audi. The only reason people believed the silly "sudden acceleration" story was because the cars were such crap to begin with!
I also buy and hold. No lease for me. Even my Escort lasted almost 8 years, and it was totalled or I would have kept it longer.
I always play devil's advocate, so please go ahead. It makes for an interesting debate!
-juice
The bottom line is this: you can say it's a lot of money for what you currently perceive a Subaru to be and you'd be right!
But the VDC is here to help move Subaru upscale a bit more in terms of image. So in fact it's supposed to change what you think of Subaru to begin with!
Let's come up with an example. Say you test drive a VDC after owning a 300,000 mile Loyale (not hard to believe).
Holy Cow! This is NICE! Leather, double moon roof, heated seats? The VDC will pamper you like no other Soob ever has.
You read about the technology and it boggles your mind, too. The VDC can actually correct your mistakes and make you a better driver, not just improve traction.
Sure it'll cost more than your Loyale did. But NADA has the average retail transaction at $24k, so you're not even paying 50% more than a merely average car costs.
So there's the value.
-juice
I think the "failure" of the SVX was more a failure of Subaru to advertise correctly and its lack of SVX PR. I bought one of the first models delivered to the midwest (9/91.) With a sticker price of $27,000+ fully equipped, it represented outstanding value when compared to other high speed "touring" coupes. The lack of a manual transmission hurt image and sales in no small measure. Coupled with the fact that the public couldn't perceive of a $27,000 Subaru ( poor advertising emphasis and PR,) an incredibly good vehicle floundered. To measure worth of an SVX, try to find a used touring coupe with as little depreciation as a good SVX!
Just my two cents worth.
Don
I poked around a bit, to come up with my "ideal" vehicle for the H6, and I actually came up with two:
1. Legacy GT Wagon 5 speed, sells for about $22k in my area now, could sell for $24k with the H6. Could even delete the moonroof for some credit, but at that price you may as well splurge.
2. Forester S Premium 5 speed, sells for $23k or so, could still sell for $25k with H6. That moonroof is a must-have, if you ask me.
Even at retail these would be competitive.
And the thing is I'm sure the H6 will trickle down. We just have to wait.
-juice
I don't think my statements were out of line. The VDC IS within $3000 CDN of the basic RX 300 (which is not loaded, but is certainly not a stripper) and is within $8-9000 CDN (or about $5400 to $6000 US) of the fully-equipped model.
To build on previous points that Mike, Ash and I have made, this is getting into luxury territory. Whether the Sube is a better value can't be determined until it's driven; therefore any comments now are speculation. Speculation is based, in many cases, on PERCEPTION: If I hadn't owned, and been pleased with, a Subie, I would NOT NECESSARILY give the value advantage to Subaru over VW, Volvo, or Lexus. In fact, on paper, I'd probably have to give the initial advantage to VW based on the $3000 price advantage (here in Winnipeg) and on the some of the perceived qualities (many of which were outlined by Ash). Additionally, I think many people, when faced with the option of a more basic Lexus being priced only $3000 more than a loaded Subaru, will opt for the Lexus: perhaps for the "wrong" reasons, but their choice, nonetheless.
I do appreciate a good debate; I don't appreciate someone suggesting that my opinion is "ranting" simply because it is different than yours, or because it is somewhat critical of Subaru. I also don't think that my opinion needs to be "corrected"; a simple "I disagree" will suffice.
Randy
Bob
For niche market manufacturers to survive they have to find price points between the major players. Also there is better profit as you move upmarket as you get away from the CAFE loss leaders from the larger companies.
tincup
After the first 2 paragraphs you can stop, cause most car buyer's aren't car nutz like most of us, so they don't care about reliablility, they care what their kids friends and parents are going to say, or what the people at church will say, or the store or the golf course. No one is going to say "Wow you got a subaru what a luxury automobile, I like it better than my acura, and so-en-so's lexus" It's just not in that class no matter how much you dress it up, and how much it can kick the crap out of a lexus/bmw/acura/merc/Audi, it just isn't.
-mike
Impreza-Plain (DL) Nice(GL) Performance (GT)
Wagons, 2 & 4 door Sedans
Legacy-Plain, Nice, and Performance
Wagons, 4 door Sedans
Forester, UrbanVersion, OutbackVersion
Outback,Plain, Nice, and Reallllly Nice
Choice of 4Cly, 4clyTurbo, or 6Cly in all models
This has something for everyone accross the market. I won't happen, because it provides to many differences on the assembly line.
FLASH FLASH : We will be adding a country drive to the event. It will most likely be 30 to 40 miles around the Gettysburg Area. Details are still being worked out, but driving instructions will be printed out and available to all that attend.
I'm with Ash and others on the issue that Subaru may outprice themselves with offerings in $30+ range.
My husband went from Loyale to Accord EX, and wasn't as happy as he hoped to be.
Loyale rules! Bring back the Loyale and its pricing!
The main thing that bothers me is what I assume is a nonfunctional hood scoop. I didn't like them on late '70s Firebirds and I'm not likely to suddenly start admiring them on 2001 Imprezas.
As for the H6 prices, I'm not inclined to debate the relative value of those models, but I am inclined to say that it strikes me as too high. I'd think it will take a heck of a marketing campaign to get a sizable number of American buyers thinking of Subarus — wonderful vehicles though they are — as near-luxury-class vehicles, which is the mental shift that kind of pricing will require. I don't know that it will be a flop, but I certainly don't think it's going to help increase Subaru's U.S. market share.
Sad to say, I see Subaru following the same way as it becomes more successful and "mainstream" in the post '95 Outback era. As Subaru establishes a Distinctive Design / Performance niche, it may start to lose its less profitable high-value models - especially as a small manufacturer. Market-driven "evolution" to higher prices. When I replace the Forester in say 12 years, who knows what I'll buy!
I guess we each speak from a different perspective, and sometimes a different market, and should keep that in mind. Remember our friend Steve Suzuki has a 240hp Forester turbo, so I doubt he's longing for the mere 212hp in the H6! I did write "in my area", but I'll try to think more globally from now on.
Yes, the VDC certainly does hit the near-luxury market. But it has a lot to offer, including more equipment than the others being mentioned. Why isn't anyone talking about the LL Bean model? Heck, even it is better equipped than the base RX300.
Image. OK, you got me. If you look at it as a $32k "inexpensive and built to stay that way" Legacy, it's doomed. If instead you look at it as an E320 alternative for $20k less, well, that's what SoA is hoping for.
Loyale fans may want to take a look at the base Impreza wagon. It falls into a reasonalbe price range. Forester S Premium? Sweet...you're getting a lot more for the money.
I'm a stickler for apples-to-apples comparisons, even though perhaps the car buying market may not be. With that in mind, though, it sounds like you guys think the LL Bean will outsell the VDC by far. So let me ask, what percentage would you guess for each? 80/20 in favor of the LL Bean?
-juice
LL Bean $30k
Passat GLX 4Mo $31k
A4 Avant 2.8 $32k
RX300 $35k
Volvo XC $36k
BMW 330ix $37k (est)
9-5 SE AWD $40k (est)
E320 4Matic $51k
OK, I admit that looks tough. There are 6 others within 10 grand, all with premium images. The VDC would have an even tougher time. So, point taken.
However, let's look at models with heated leather, moonroof, roof rack, cold package, LSD, metallic paint, all of which are included in the LL Bean's base price:
LL Bean $30k
Passat GLX 4Mo $32k
A4 Avant 2.8 $36k
RX300 $39k
Volvo XC $39k
9-5 SE AWD $42k (est)
BMW 330ix $43k (est)
E320 4Matic $55k
Now there's only 4 within $10 grand, and really only the Passat in the same price range.
Plus, at least in specifications, the H6 is better than average, beating the VW, Audi, Volvo, and Saab in power.
-juice
You forgot to add the ML320 to your list. The thing is though, that the Subaru is supposed to be an SUV alternative, so I'm not sure if the buyers (well, some of them) are interested in SUVs in the first place.
Drew
You don't hear people saying Subaru in the same sentence as Audi, Volvo, Lexus, Saab, BMW, and ML.
-- ash
I actually agree, but take a peek and you'll see a price advantage of at least $6,000. So the LL Bean and VeeDub are near-luxury, while the others are full blown luxury cars.
Saab's AWD isn't out yet, which is why my price was estimated.
I included the E320 on purpose, just to raise a few eyebrows as to what a luxurious AWD wagon can cost. My point is $30k is cheap!
But you're right about the ML. It starts around $36k and stays under $40k even with the heated leather and moonroof.
-juice
I kind of see it as a sign that the US auto market is changing. Take a look at VW. They've completely re-vamped their image over the last few years. People also thought they were entering risky ground by introducing upscale models like the Passat GLX.
It's counter-intuitive, but it keeps happening. Sales are up this year, even though the Legacys cost a good amount more than the 99 models did, and with smaller rebates.
I'll bet 2001 sales will go up again.
-juice
Interesting analysis of some of the spy pics and the "real" pics.
-Colin
I don't perceive a Subaru to be lesser car than a Volvo or Saab or Passat like many here, but we all have different perspectives and "history" in the car market. Lexus, Mercedes etc. clearly go after the LUXURY buyer for whom value is secondary.
Conclusion: By EXTENDING their upper range, they EXTEND their market.
http://www.detnews.com/autosweekly/0007/26/talk/talk.htm
iscotts -- Good point. I also think that there has been significant growth of the 'near luxury' market (vehicles around $30K) in the last few years. There's probably room for the LL Bean and VDC there.
Mary
Bob
Though I included the A4 in the comparison, try the back seat if you get a chance. The Legacy is closer to the A6. The A4 Avant is a bit smaller than the Forester.
Mary: people already are! The RX300 is Lexus' best selling model, and it's not the cheapest. A well equipped Explorer or Grand Cherokee easily hits the mid $30's.
Drew: a Buick van with a V8 on a Outback chassis? Reminds me of a Swedish car built in Holland by a Japanese company and sold in the US. Anyone care to guess which vehicle I'm talking about?
Bigger than Forester SUV, yes, please. Do I really have to wait 'til 2004?
-juice
Ford has many, many more dealers, plus a much bigger owner base. They can back it with a huge marketing effort, and it has the goods, on paper at least (V6, 200hp, AWD).
Though it's short, it does have more room. The price is right, too.
I can't get the story straight on whether the AWD is full-time or not, i.e. whether it can be engaged on dry surfaces. Does the brochure mention that?
The 626 chassis is a good base, my wife's car has a good structure. The Duratec engine is from the Taurus, where it's been reliable enough.
I still don't trust a Ford, though. My first car was a Mustang that was just full of problems. We sold it to a friend of my dad's and it caused him problems 'til the day a charity towed it away for a good cause: a high school shop class. I'll bet they're still fixing it!
My previous car was a '91 Escort GT. Mazda chassis, Ford body & interior. Sound familiar, guys?
Let's see if I can remember all the problems it gave me...hyper active fuel guage, rust on the gas cap, loose carpeting, freon leak, A/C condenser blown, water leak in passenger foot well, orange peel paint, paint flaws in door jamb, glove box would not close, loose trim in about a dozen places, panels did not line up, weather stripping fell off in several places, and more shakes and rattles than a 50's band. The sheet metal dinged way too easily, and the paint on some trim peeled.
OK, it was cheap and fun, and gave no mechanical problems, but the engine and tranny were Mazda pieces. How ironic.
Buyer beware. At least wait for the quality/reliability ratings before you jump on that bandwagon.
-juice
PS The Ford will hit the Cherokee and CR-V the hardest; the Mazda's volumes are so low it won't make a dent.
The Escape/Tribute's AWD system can be locked 50/50 on dry pavement, but it is not recommended because it can cause binding. Mazda/Ford claim that the normal setting is good enough. Personally, I like the Tribute's look more than the Escape's.
Drew
So it ain't no Subaru
The Legacy also outperformed the 626 in crash tests. Still, the Escape is different enough that we'll have to wait and see.
I haven't test drive one yet, but next Saturday I will. Edmunds Live is coming to DC, so I'll get to drive the Escape and a Forester back to back.
-juice
PS I realize most of the buying public won't even care or know about the AWD system, but my guess is the small SUV market will expand and Forester sales will be unaffected. Sales went UP when the Grand Vitara and XTerra arrived.