Postwar Studebakers

uplanderguy · September 2018

The Packard plant--I heard that someone trekking through there maybe five (?) years ago stumbled upon a super-hero porno film being made on the roof there, LOL.

uplanderguy · September 2018

My local Stude dealer's (and friend) son sent me these photos yesterday. First is fall '65 (used cars were parked on the right in front of the showroom) and second is two or three years ago, with his Dad peering in the old showroom windows. His memorial service is this coming Wed. and I'm going. I'd sure like to have that poster that's in the window.

uplanderguy · September 2018

Here's a brief video tour of Studebaker's Administration Building. I've been in the building three times since around 1991 or so; the last time this past May. Sadly, the interior is deteriorating rapidly. The deal this article is talking about, apparently fell through.

Studebaker sold the building for $1 to the South Bend School Administration Corp. in 1969, and they were in it until maybe ten years ago IIRC.

https://www.southbendtribune.com/multimedia/videos/studebaker-tour/video_a84fabe8-2235-11e3-b90a-0019bb30f31a.html

This was the Engineering Building, about two blocks from the Administration Building. I'd been in this building many times as it housed the parts inventory leftover from Studebaker until maybe seven or eight years ago. There was an open courtyard area in the middle where they'd secretly tear down competitor's vehicles:

http://www.curbsideclassic.com/automotive-histories/studebaker-in-south-bend-going-going/

uplanderguy · September 2018

RE.: Packard plant--I remember plainly, the address is 1580 E. Grand Boulevard. My friend and I were also down there about five years after our first visit, and it had gotten even worse. I would absolutely recommend not driving down there yourself....taking the tour is probably not a bad idea although $40 seems a bit rich to me, LOL.

uplanderguy · September 2018

Your trip sounds like a fun one. You will be in the heartland of America, that's for sure.

uplanderguy · September 2018

That blue Champ on BaT sold for $13,750:

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1962-studebaker-champ/

uplanderguy · September 2018

Factory photo of '64 Gran Turismo Hawk out at the Proving Ground. Base price lowered to $2,958 for '64. I like the no-mirror look:

uplanderguy · September 2018

Factory photo, '64 Daytona Convertible, at Proving Ground.

uplanderguy · September 2018

'64 Daytona Wagonaire in front of Proving Ground clubhouse:

uplanderguy · September 2018

Fall '63 photo; '64 storage lot in South Bend with Studebaker military trucks in the back.

fintail · September 2018

Boat looks kinda bit to be towed by a 289

uplanderguy · September 2018

Received in the mail today from my friend's family. I believe that's a fintail way down at the end. New Stude, a Simca, and an M-B lined up in the Service Department! The Stude is a '64 or '65 and is new; still has the window sticker.

ab348 · September 2018

In that era I would guess that Simca had their own dealer network in the USA since they were not yet part of Chrysler?

I remember around 1970 or so after Chrysler bought them, being in the local Dodge showroom surrounded by land yachts and muscle cars and sitting in a little blue Simca 1204 that they had in there. Talk about a fish out of water. I remember it had very comfy seats.

uplanderguy · September 2018

I think in the U.S., Simca was imported by Chrysler starting in maybe '64? That's when my friend got the Simca franchise. I've seen a pic when the Simca guy from Erie (nearest big PA city, maybe 60 miles away) was shaking hands with my friend, with a Dodge A-100 van with "SIMCA" painted on the panels in the pic. I remember that my friend said one reason he wanted to add Simca was that it had Chrysler's 5 year/50K mile warranty, best in the industry at that time. I have read of other Stude dealers in that period of Stude's winding down, that also added Simca which makes me wonder if Simca deliberately courted Stude dealers. Who knows.

Why Chrysler woudn't have initially sold Simcas through Plymouth dealers, I don't know. But I know for certain, my friend's large newspaper ad in March '66 after Studebaker announced it was closing, mentions him selling the Simca with Chrysler's 5/50 warranty.

I wonder if Simca would be offered to the local Plymouth or Dodge dealer first; if they didn't want it (tools and signage involved I'm sure), they then looked elsewhere?

I can remember my fifth-grade teacher's Simca, a 1000 model I think, not unlike the one in the picture. It had the trademark little gold pentastar at the bottom of the right fender, as was customary then--only on the right side.

uplanderguy · September 2018

I don't remember Simcas that looked like those in your pic, ab348. By then our local dealer was gone. Those remind me of certain Fiats, maybe Strada? Just from the top of my head; may not be accurate.

berri · September 2018

I seem to recall a gas station near us selling Simca's back then, but could be mistaken.

fintail · September 2018

The car at the end is probably a MB W111 - W112s were really rare even then. Likely a fintail, but something about the sliver of top visible behind the Stude makes me think it is a coupe or convertible. Those were fairly expensive then (maybe 8K for a coupe/10K for a cabrio in 65).

uplanderguy said:
Received in the mail today from my friend's family. I believe that's a fintail way down at the end. New Stude, a Simca, and an M-B lined up in the Service Department! The Stude is a '64 or '65 and is new; still has the window sticker.

uplanderguy · October 2018

The 'warped' image in the Stude's windshield looks like a B-pillar to me, but who knows.

fintail · October 2018

I can see that. Much more likely to be a sedan anyway.

fintail · October 2018

Here's an interesting relic from what must be just after the time Stude got out of the MB business. Interesting prices (base prices of course - add for automatic, radio, AC, sunroof, etc). The 200/230 sedans are late run fintails.

uplanderguy · October 2018

Some of those are pretty stiff! I really had no inkling of M-B prices at all back then. Studebaker got out of the M-B agreement (or vice-versa) in 1965. I've seen that in more than one normally reliable source.

fintail · October 2018

The 600s were definitely dear - that was probably approaching the price of a Rolls-Royce Phantom (I want to say those were closer to 30K then). Or the price of a house that here could easily be worth 7 figures today. The roadsters look like a relative bargain.

uplanderguy · October 2018

The final Studebaker Avanti, the white R3 that is in the Crawford Museum in Cleveland, stickered with options at just a few dollars over $6,000. The R3 was basically an engine built by the Granatellis in CA and shipped to South Bend for factory installation. Nine factory-installed R3's in Avantis and one in a Lark Commander. They are the holy grail for late-Studebaker buffs. They weren't some secret thing (a la Chevy 'COPO') as they were in the brochures, but the extra cost proved prohibitive for most Studebaker buyers in those South Bend-twilight years.

Unrelated, but saw this '61 Lark Skytop model in Flamingo on eBay. That's a nice model for sure but sheesh I wouldn't pay that:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1961-Studebaker-Lark-Sky-Top-Pro-Built-1-24th-scale-JoHan/153203256774?hash=item23aba02dc6:g:0ZkAAOSwj81bs45F

fintail · October 2018

That model is pretty amazing. Looking at the seller's history, people pay up for his work. Like this Ford LTD

And this Squire - wow.

uplanderguy · October 2018

Holy....!

I was glad that Jo-Han (the basis for his model) made Lark promo kits through '63, but the front wheel opening is a bad job. The real cars weren't rounded at the top like that at all. Still, I had a couple '62 Lark convertible Jo-Han kits when they reintroduced them in the '80's.

ab348 · October 2018

The price of those models makes a $1200 iPhone seem like a bargain.

uplanderguy · October 2018

I have long-been aware of my friend's Stude dealer in my hometown delivering a black '64 Cruiser sedan with supercharger to one of his mechanics, who is happily still with us. A little digging at the Stude Museum archives some years back told me what serial no. his car was--confirmed with paperwork filled out by the dealer that is on-file at the museum.

A friend who was looking at production records for '64's told me he saw a serial number for a supercharged Cruiser, same black color, delivered to my hometown dealer, that was not the serial number of the mechanic's car.

I was incredulous, as I had only heard from both the mechanic and my friend, the dealer, that they sold just the one Avanti-engined car.

I thought perhaps my friend dealer-traded the car, or its destination was diverted after the order was placed, if the order was cancelled, or whatever.

I contacted the museum and asked for the shipping certificate and paperwork filled out with the name of the original purchaser.

The car was indeed sold new by my friend, to a customer who lived in a city about 15 miles away. It was shipped from South Bend and delivered only four days later. I wonder if the owner just never brought it back to the dealership in my hometown.

Supposedly nine R2 Cruisers built for '64, and two were sold by my small-town hometown dealer...and both were black.

uplanderguy · October 2018

Sure missed that 9/11 "must deliver" date!

Guy traded in a '59 M-B.

Since he was retired in Oct. '63, I'd say he's certainly shuffled off this mortal coil by now.

uplanderguy · October 2018

I see Oct. 11, 1963 was a Friday. Sept. 11 was not. Apparently a goof in the Shipping Dept.

fintail · October 2018

I suspect the trade in was a Ponton. Reclining seats and disc brakes, kind of MB-ish. Power windows on that Cruiser have to be rare too. Is Climatizer an AC system, or a climate control name? Is it known if the car still exists?

I find a Norman Johnston in Sharon who lived from 1888-1978, maybe that's him

omarman · October 2018

I see 404 on that link.

fintail · October 2018

Weird, the link is pasted perfectly. Maybe they don't allow direct links.

Here's the data: December 29, 1888 September 1, 1978 89 years PA 16146 (Sharon, Mercer County)

http://www.locateancestors.com/norman-johnston/#ixzz5Sz5AlRGg

uplanderguy · October 2018

Thanks fin, that's interesting and probably is him.

A friend's old '64 Gran Turismo Hawk was bought new by a guy born in 1892. Appears Mr. Johnston had him beat!

My memory as a kid, is that later Studes were often driven by old folks.

The 'elect winds' on the sheet is electric windshield washer. Avantis were the only Studes of the '60's available with power windows. 'Climatizer' was the heater and defroster.

I fear the car would've been long-lost in snowy, salty NW PA.

But...to be 75 years old and ordering a supercharged sedan with disc brakes, and having had a Benz before it, the guy was something of a car guy for sure.

uplanderguy · October 2018

I'm old enough to remember that the stench of failure/orphan makes was around, in people's minds from Edsel/DeSoto and the several others that went away in the fifties, after Studebaker shut down. As used cars they were worth little in our area. A fair amount of guys in the Studebaker Drivers' Club have said they first discovered how much they liked the cars by buying used ones in the late sixties/early seventies for very low prices, as 'work cars' or the like.

fintail · October 2018

Definitely a car guy. Maybe these cars had an appeal to older car guys - IIRC, I was able to find data on who I believe was the first owner of the fintail, and he was 73 when he bought it. He was definitely older, as he entered notes/questions in the owners manual (he wasn't a fan of the automatic transmission, I think), and the writing fit that profile.

Regarding decay, I was thinking the same fate might have been happening to his trade-in - old MBs aren't exactly immune from rust either, and in that climate issues might have existed already. I've read that in harsh climates, fintails could really be beyond redemption by 10 years old.

uplanderguy · October 2018

I have long-remembered seeing a black '64 Cruiser, about three or four cars in front of us, in Grove City, PA in the late '70's. I was riding home from college with a friend from Greenville and we had to stop in Grove City where his Dad was the Service Manager at the Chevy-Buick dealership. I knew enough then to know the car was a '64 Cruiser, but cannot remember seeing any particular badging that would indicate the supercharged engine. I've oft-wondered what happened to that particular car.

Grove City was about 25 miles from both Greenville and Sharon.

uplanderguy · October 2018

I do think it was not typical in the early sixties to prefer a car that wasn't gargantuan, but with most of a full-size interior. The only really full-size (by wheelbase) sixties Stude was the Hawk, and of course it was only a coupe.

I grew up GM and like the '77 full-size GM's, but GM acts like they invented taut exterior size with full-size interior room, LOL.

fintail · October 2018

Maybe some older drivers realized the gigantic cars had become a bit silly, and wanted something with easier/better handling. Stude was definitely there with "right sized" (they never got huge, so no downsizing) along with maybe Rambler, and then imports. That was also the era when US cars really fell out of favor overseas - I don't think it was a quality issue, rather, a size issue.

Even at my age, I can think of cars I recall seeing when young, and wonder what happened to them. I remember a blue bullet nose coupe on the small town used car lot about 25 years ago. It looked very nice as a 10 footer anyway, and I think was only priced around 4K. Several years ago here I saw a late run maybe 65-66 sedan on the road, I think I spotted it a couple times, but it has been ages.

When I was a youngster, no older than 10, an old couple down the street had a fintail - two tone grey and white with a red interior - a rare combination. Debadged, but it was a W111/ 6 cylinder car like mine. It was in very nice shape, and sometimes they'd park it on the street, and I would look it over. I thought it was a really weird car. I visited the area about 20 years ago and it was still there, but I have visited numerous times since, and it has been gone - I think the residents have moved on.

berri · October 2018

I think another problem that Rambler and Studebaker had was that there was no trade up brand in their company. The Ambassador was really more an upgraded Rambler option package to me. Also, limited engineering dollars were constraining. So younger buyers wanted the latest, while older buyers were in a position to trade up...AMC and Studebaker didn't have a lot to offer either of them compared to the Detroit 3.

uplanderguy · October 2018

True.

I think Studebaker offered more models, including trucks up to and including two-tons and diesels, than Rambler, even right up to the end in South Bend. I thought Rambler stressed economy more than Studebaker did, those last few years. Rambler didn't offer a V8 at all in their Classic line, until mid-'63, yet alone a supercharged V8 and disc brakes. Neither the Classic nor Ambassador even offered a two-door hardtop until 1964. I like that '62 and later Studes were designed by industrial designers, thus offering straightforward (IMO) instrument panels and no 'googie' shapes nor 1,2,3, etc. speedometers like Ramblers.

All that said, Rambler did something right. Their wagons seemed especially popular during this period.

fintail · October 2018

I think Stude had at least some customer demographic who wanted a car with a mild Euro flavor - not insanely huge, some modern tech, subtle styling, while at the same time wanted something a little less fussy to live with than most Euro cars of the period. Unfortunately, this demographic probably wasn't enough to keep money coming in.

The 63+ Ramblers were pretty handsome cars. I remember a red and black hardtop in town when I was a kid, it was driven by a little old lady who lived in a very 50s looking house.

berri · October 2018

The late 50's and early 60's Rambler (Kenosha Kadillac) wagons were pretty ubiquitous in the Chicago area back then, but after the redesign 63's came out it seemed to shift toward sedans. Nothing objective here, just my experiences. Studebaker; mostly remember sedans. I thought the Wagon with the sliding roof was neat, but seldom saw one. Same for pickups. But I think Studebaker had a contract for some US Post Office trucks.

uplanderguy · October 2018

I think the '63 Rambler redesign was a very good one. I didn't care for the instrument panel or how the rear doors looked like total reverse clones of the front, but the car looked modern and in fact I bemoaned they made the front end of the '64 flat.

Studebaker did win a government contract for mail trucks--Zip Vans-in '63 and '64....all six-cylinder automatics with Twin Traction and large one-piece windshields. I've read they were used by the post office until 1970.

https://www.deviantart.com/skoshi8/art/1963-Studebaker-Zip-Van-Postal-Truck-01-624128000

sda · October 2018

The Zip van is cool. Being able to drive it while standing or sitting was probably very practical, not sure about how safe. The grille to be shaped for PA keystone, how creative yet simple and clean looking.

uplanderguy · October 2018

A general grille of that shape was also a Studebaker tradition since the '56 Hawk, and into the Larks.

My Dad worked at the Greenville Post Office (BTW, rated by a post-office hobbyist (:)) as most beautiful in the U.S.!) and I can clearly remember these Zip Vans being used there.

Pic on page two of link and mention in the main article:

https://www.npr.org/2011/11/22/142653788/going-postal-blogger-memorializes-post-offices

uplanderguy · October 2018

I just saw an ad for a '65 Marlin. I know the Avanti is a love-or-hate design, but that Marlin makes me want to do a Tim Allen "Huhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh?!".

berri · October 2018

Yep, that's the truck Up. Avanti stomps Marlin! I think it has been written that the Marlin was supposed to be a compact, but was enlarged by management. I think it would have looked better as a compact. Kind of the reverse situation as the 62 Plymouth and Dodge Polara ironically.

omarman · October 2018

No bids yet on this ebay auction for a 1963 Studebaker Zip Van seen on BaT.

bhill2 · October 2018

fintail said:
I think Stude had at least some customer demographic who wanted a car with a mild Euro flavor - not insanely huge, some modern tech, subtle styling, while at the same time wanted something a little less fussy to live with than most Euro cars of the period. Unfortunately, this demographic probably wasn't enough to keep money coming in.

The 63+ Ramblers were pretty handsome cars. I remember a red and black hardtop in town when I was a kid, it was driven by a little old lady who lived in a very 50s looking house.

You rang the memory bell with that one! My dad took me to the '63 Seattle Auto Show. There was one of those Rambler hardtops there; black with lipstick-red interior, and a "twin stick" transmission on the floor (the second stick operated the overdrive). My 14 year old mind was blown.

uplanderguy · October 2018

Just back from Hershey. The show was today and I took quite a few pics in the few days I was out there. This Studebaker made me about drop dead...I'd never seen it nor knew the owner had it, as I found out he was someone whose name I was familiar with from the SDC forum, and he knew who I was from there and what Stude I had, but we had never met. '64 Daytona Hardtop, factory supercharged R2 4-speed car, disc brakes, repro Halibrand mags which were a Stude dealer accessory then. Just gorgeous. Although it's on a tidy 109-inch wheelbase, looks more mid-size in styling than compact to me, although not sure why. If this car came available I'd sell mine in a heartbeat--but alas, this one would take much more money.

Postwar Studebakers

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