Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

suydam · May 2019

I have not had that experience with any of the Toyota or Honda dealerships I’ve done business with. Can’t speak to Hyundai o Kia as I’ve never been in one.

driver100 · May 2019

tjc78 said:
Wonderful cars. I'd drive one, but there is plenty of data showing that they are more expensive to maintain and repair than many other makes.

Why are you fighting this? The data supports it.

I'll tell you what...we could prove it pretty quickly.

Go to any extended warranty company and get quotes on say a 2012 Mercedes E-class and then a 2012 Chevy Impala.

Which do you think will cost more and why?

If you are asking me, I don't believe I would actually claim that a Mercedes is going to cost less to own over 8 to 10 years....since the E costs twice what an Impala costs, I would assume parts are about double and since the mechanics have to be MB certified repairs cost more. I think the original discussion was about weather an MB or BMW would last for 200k miles at a resonable cost....and I gave roadrunners X3 as an example.

driver100 · May 2019

jmonroe1 said:

driver100 said:

tjc78 said:
MB doesn't need to have an extra long warranty....people will buy them with a regular 3 year warranty.
You ever wonder why they don't? I'll tell you why... because they know how much it would cost them!!!
If they are that bad and unreliable....I wonder why people buy them?
Glad you asked, maybe it's the "wonder"-ful badge.
jmonroe

If it was just for the badge I would get a Porsche or Maserati or something like that...MBs and BMWs aren't much of a status symbol....are they. Even if they were, do people like to make people envious by paying a lot for an inferior product? I think not. They are willing to pay extra because it is made right......then it gets its status rating.

driver100 · May 2019

snakeweasel".

I dont see letho pushing things to buy and most of his videos are about things he doesnt deal with.

Letho is getting his name out there so he can become the "go to guy" if you have a car problem....probably would love to do a class action law suit. Not to be judgmental

, but, I doubt any lawyer does charitable work through the goodness of his heart.

Speaking of lawyers;

The Lawyer

A father told each of his 3 sons, as he sent them off to college, "I feel it's my duty to provide you with the best possible education, and you do not owe me anything for that. However, I want you to appreciate it. As a token, please each put $1,000 into my coffin when I die."

And so it happened. His sons became a doctor, a lawyer and a financial planner, each very successful financially. When their father's time had come, and they saw their father in the coffin, they remembered.

First, the doctor put 10 newly printed crisp $100 bills onto the chest of the deceased.

Next, the financial planner also put $1,000 there in 20 newly printed crisp $50 bills.

Finally, it was the heartbroken lawyer's turn. He reached into his pocket, took out his checkbook, wrote a check for $3,000, put it into his father's coffin, and took the $2,000 cash. The lawyer is now running for Congress in your district.

explorerx4 · May 2019

Well driver100, I can't how your car(E) is saving you hundreds of dollars a month, when it is depreciating $1000 a month. Clue me in on the math.

ruking1 · May 2019

driver100 said:

tjc78 said:
Wonderful cars. I'd drive one, but there is plenty of data showing that they are more expensive to maintain and repair than many other makes.

Why are you fighting this? The data supports it.

I'll tell you what...we could prove it pretty quickly.

Go to any extended warranty company and get quotes on say a 2012 Mercedes E-class and then a 2012 Chevy Impala.

Which do you think will cost more and why?
If you are asking me, I don't believe I would actually claim that a Mercedes is going to cost less to own over 8 to 10 years....since the E costs twice what an Impala costs, I would assume parts are about double and since the mechanics have to be MB certified repairs cost more. I think the original discussion was about weather an MB or BMW would last for 200k miles at a resonable cost....and I gave roadrunners X3 as an example.

Why is circular logic used over & over, when the formula CPMD : depreciation, (cost per mile driven: depreciation) is clear? ( pp-sp= depreciation/miles-CPMD: depreciation)
There seems to be an aversion to REAL #’s. It’s almost like whistling while you walk by the graveyard.

I’ve posted 2 examples: 1. 2004 Honda Civic @ $.0332 cost per mile driven. 2. 1987 Toyota Landcruiser @ $.028 CPMD: depreciation. Current 2014 MB GLK 250 BT, CPMD: depreciation @ 81,000 miles estimated @ $.142. We hope it drops to less than $.10 CPMD: depreciation.

driver100 · May 2019

btw...a friend in Florida has a 1986 BMW that has over 250000 miles on it, looks like this;

It still runs nice. He does most work himself, but he says an indie garage is the best bet for repairs. Hourly fee for mechanics is more reasonable, and new car dealers don't have the training to work on older cars.
How many people do you know that have an 86 Chev, Buick, Ford, Toyota etc?

driver100 · May 2019

explorerx4 said:
Well driver100, I can't how your car(E) is saving you hundreds of dollars a month, when it is depreciating $1000 a month. Clue me in on the math.

I never intended for my car to save me $100s a month. As an investment the E 400 would be a disaster. I bought it because I like driving it, I really like the safety (like I said, I doubt we would be walking today if we were driving something else the day we were hit), and I can afford it. I might as well enjoy life as much as I can....I am at the stage in life when I don't want or need to try and save money. If I was at a stage of life when I might need a bigger home, or are expecting another kid, or paying for kids educations I for sure wouldn't be driving an E. I would have to be more practical, possibly a Honda Accord I don't know. But, I am not driving the E to try and save money. If that was my goal I would be better off with a used Accord, as I only use it for 7 months and drive about 7500 miles a year.

ruking1 · May 2019

driver100 said:
btw...a friend in Florida has a 1986 BMW that has over 250000 miles on it, looks like this;

It still runs nice. He does most work himself, but he says an indie garage is the best bet for repairs. Hourly fee for mechanics is more reasonable, and new car dealers don't have the training to work on older cars.
How many people do you know that have an 86 Chev, Buick, Ford, Toyota etc?

Meaning “less” in terms of cost per mile driven: depreciation.

explorerx4 · May 2019

@driver100, I agree your car(and mine) are not saving any money, but you said your car was saving you hundreds of dollars month. I just want to know how you got to that conclusion.

driver100 · May 2019

Another thing I am concerned about is an electronics problem happening...when the car is out of warranty. Electronics are similar in all cars these days, and they can be costly to repair. I wonder how much Monroe's nanny warning telling him traffic has started moving would cost to fix? MBs have got more gizmos than most D3 cars....but, most cars have very sophisticated electronic devices these days, and I have a suspicion they these devices will be expensive to fix. You know how we used to fix a broken TV, but now when it doesn't work we toss it out and buy a new one? That may start happening with cars. The washing machine that used to last 25 years, now lasts 8 years. We will see. Wasn't the cost of getting a convertible roof to work about $3000?

A new key was going to cost me $600, but one guy said a key for his Nissan Murano was $400.....electronics and gizmos could become very costly to fix...for all makes.

henryn · May 2019

tjc78 said:

stickguy said:
I have a mental divide between "new" cars and "old" cars. Probably going back to my youth when I had an endless series of, well, junkers and well-worn cheapies.

a Car can be New for a long time, or get old early. New means I don't worry about it starting, an will hop in at any time and go anywhere. Our RDX is almost 7, and still in this category. But, at some point, it starts to develop some foibles (a few things go, noises develop, etc.) Probably stills functions OK, but I stop trusting it as much and would not just hop in and drive 500 miles without a care. At this point, it has become an Old car.

Old cars are fine for being a spare, more local car. I would drive one. My wife, not a chance. So her car, which is also usually the more utility focused one that we take to travel, will always qualify as new. My car, which would not get many miles and usually not going very far from home, could be well used.
This is a pretty good assessment IMO. We have a six year old Tahoe at work with 55K miles, I'd drive it anywhere.

When I got rid of my 04 Grand Marquis it was 12 years old with 100K miles or so. I had driven it to Richmond only a few months prior to getting rid of it. I wasn't scared it would break down or leave me stranded, but my wife really wanted me to rent a car or take hers.

I think it all depends on the car. If from a few years old it was problematic and stranded you then I certainly wouldn't take it far when it was approaching ten years old.

I will most likely jinx myself now, but in 23 years of driving I have only been stranded one time. Was it my completely beat 79 Continental? My POS 93 Taurus? Nope a brand new Genesis. The second closest was when my (again) brand new 03 Avalon blew it's power steering pump and sprayed the fluid all over the engine. I was only mile from the dealer so I limped it there.

When I was younger, I drove older cars, and often very fast but not new cars. And I drove the h___ out of them, and sometimes they would break. In my later years, very few breakdowns. The last breakdown that I can remember, requiring a wrecker, was with an almost brand new truck, but it was not the truck's fault. We had a freeze (does happen here, not often, but does happen). Some neighborhood cat nested under the hood of my truck and clawed up the wiring harness.

The next morning, I barely made it onto the freeway and the truck dropped dead. Stone cold dead, no engine, no electrical circuitry, nothing. I rolled off the freeway, got out to take a look, and there were about 5,000 wires hanging down from the engine compartment and trailing behind the truck. Yes, I exaggerate, but honest to god, there were at least 1 or 2 hundred wires trailing behind on the ground.

When I finally got back to the house, several hours later, I looked closely where the truck had been parked, and I found scraps from the wiring harness and the connector.

driver100 · May 2019

I'd have to know the context of what I said explorer. If I actually said that it was a senior moment because it is impossible for me to save any money with an E that is used for 7 months.
I may have said buying it new, instead of used, may save me money over the long run if I kept it for 8 or 10 years.
If I said it I was wrong.
I could be saving money with the C250 buying it as a CPO compared to a new car. It had 12k miles on it when we bought it, we do about 6000 miles a year in 5 months, it has just under 30k miles on it. For a 5 year old car it does few miles, so I may come out a winner on that one.....if there isn't a costly repair over the next few years.

jmonroe1 · May 2019

driver100 said:
btw...a friend in Florida has a 1986 BMW that has over 250000 miles on it, looks like this;

It still runs nice. He does most work himself, but he says an indie garage is the best bet for repairs. Hourly fee for mechanics is more reasonable, and new car dealers don't have the training to work on older cars.
How many people do you know that have an 86 Chev, Buick, Ford, Toyota etc?

Six.

jmonroe

stickguy · May 2019

driver, I do agree with you that electronics, and some of these complicated nanny/safety/monitoring systems, are going to turn otherwise fine cars into scrap, when the cost to fix something is higher than the value of the car. that used to mean something like a blown tranny. Now, could be a computer system. Plus, the man hours alone for troubleshooting some of those systems might be prohibitive.

if you are lucky, it's something you can turn off, or just live without. But some of these gizmos are so integrated into the car that might not be possible.

even a BMW spans the spectrum. RBs X3 was relatively (for a BMW!) low tech (more mechanical) so keeping that on the road without issues or large expensive makes sense. Change fluids, keep up on mechanicals, etc. But, a newer 7 series with all the whiz bang stuff, that would only be for the truly brave.

oldfarmer50 · May 2019

driver100 said:

explorerx4 said:
@jmonroe1,
That girl knew better than to mess with Mrs. Jmonroe.
Sorry about the unfortunate incident with her new car, but at least she didn't convince you she needed a Tesla.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/the-thing-about-owning-a-tesla-no-one-talks-about-—-nightmarish-repair-delays/ar-AAAJmmj?li=BBnbfcL
Interesting problem that no one does talk about......trying to get a Tesla repaired.

I noticed a Tesla in our storage lot today. The story is that it has been out of operation for some time because no one knows how it fix it. I don’t know of any Tesla stores in my region so I guess they’d have to flat bed it some distance to get dealer service.

explorerx4 · May 2019

@driver100,
What I'm trying to get across to you is that invisible depreciation can be more costly than an actual repair.
I guess if you didn't keep pushing the perspective that new is always better, I wouldn't keep responding to you.

stickguy · May 2019

they recently opened a new tesla showroom near me (right next to the Kia dealer that makes my skin crawl!) Seeing quite a few on the road. I was at Shop Rite a week back, and saw 3 in the same row (2 S models, and an X). and a fair number out on the road. Got passed on I295 last week by one that had to be doing 85+. I'm sure that doesn't help range any.

oldfarmer50 · May 2019

driver100 said:

snakeweasel said:

driver100 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

driver100 said:

oldfarmer50 said:
Is this really happening? Is the tech to do this readily available? Opinions?

https://youtu.be/dkHFf4_oAKs
Worthwhile watching.....thanks for posting OF. Confirms my thoughts about CL and the newspaper these days.
I believe they have those devices, and I wouldn't buy a car from CL. There are too many things that can go wrong, and too many scammers trying to make a quick buck. Pay a bit more, and buy from a dealer who has a good reputation and a warranty. The only other way to buy is from someone you know, directly or indirectly.

What makes you think some dealers don’t do the same thing?

Also your discussion about the cost of body repair made me think of a few videos I've seen where many insurance company “preferred” body shops have been caught doing shoddy work leaving cars to rot out from the inside or become unsafe. One Honda I saw was supposed to have 23 welds on a certain panel but the shop only did 11. In a crash the car would have folded up like an accordion.
You take precautions and do the best you can do to protect yourself;
*Dealers could could turn back mileage or sell salvaged cars....but, highly unlikely a new car dealer or a very highly rated reputable independent is going to sell garbage....they make their money by selling good quality cars and doing repeat business.

*Body shops similar. A body shop could cut corners but eventually the insurance company will cut them off. Often they belong to organizations which accredit them as trustworthy.....we have garages and repair shops that belong to Car Stars.

The 2014 C Class we bought 2 years ago was a CPO car, they do 120 point inspection. Do you know how nice it is to know all the light bulbs are going to work, all the controls are working, the brakes are safe etc, and if not they will guaranty it for....in this case, 2 years. Might pay a few $1000 more, but, it is better than throwing away $25000!
But how do you know they did the inspection?
They have a document where they check off each item.....it is like a contract....the mechanic signs off that the work was done. Mercedes knows that their reputation is at stake....and they want their used cars to be 1st class as it supports the trade-in values etc. They want to make it so you can buy in confidence. That certificate means the car is guaranteed for a total of 5 years, 3 years original warranty plus anything up to 5 years....if it was fraudulent they could end up in big trouble.

And do you still believe in Santa? If someone has dishonest intentions a CPO is worthless. A salesman once told me a CPO is just an insurance policy a dealer takes out on a used car that pays for stuff that breaks.

And you know car salespeople never lie.

ab348 · May 2019

Driver never said it was saving him hundreds of dollars a month. That was a poorly formatted quote from snake talking about his Sebring.

snakeweasel · May 2019

driver100 said:

If it was just for the badge I would get a Porsche or Maserati or something like that...MBs and BMWs aren't much of a status symbol....are they.

Wait, you really didn't just post that right? MBs and BMWs aren't much of a status symbol?

Welcome to the world of make believe.

driver100 said:
Even if they were, do people like to make people envious by paying a lot for an inferior product?

Are you saying that MBs and BMWs are inferior products?

driver100 said:
I think not. They are willing to pay extra because it is made right......then it gets its status rating.

Then people would be paying extra for Hondas and Toyotas not MBs and BMWs.

roadburner · May 2019

driver100 said:

btw...a friend in Florida has a 1986 BMW that has over 250000 miles on it, looks like this; It still runs nice. He does most work himself, but he says an indie garage is the best bet for repairs. Hourly fee for mechanics is more reasonable, and new car dealers don't have the training to work on older cars. How many people do you know that have an 86 Chev, Buick, Ford, Toyota etc?

There’s a complete moron over on another automotive forum who likes to slam BMWs; his sig proudly states that he owns a 1983 Caprice and a 1984 Cutlass. I asked him how he knew so much about BMWs, having never even sat in one and he said, “I’ve worked in the automotive industry.” It took a huge amount of restraint not to reply, “Let me guess, Jiffy Lube or Walmart?”

oldfarmer50 · May 2019

fintail said:
Exactly. It is all about priorities.

Besides, hearses don't have luggage racks

tjc78 said:
But having a new car smell every three years, is priceless, I guess.

Everyone has their vices in life. Some gamble, some have boats, some collect stamps, etc etc

I have a few family members that drive junk ....pure junk but go on several big buck vacations three/four times a year. Another has a vacation home. It just depends on your priorities.

I want newer cars in my driveway and budget accordingly. Do I spend more? Sure, but that's my prerogative. Heck, when the Elantra goes back in November it is getting replaced with something nicer now that I have to drive it every day. The practical and frugal side of me says replace it with another one, but the car lover in me says...NO!!

But you can have a trailer hitch installed if you want to take it with you.

snakeweasel · May 2019

driver100 said:
Another thing I am concerned about is an electronics problem happening...when the car is out of warranty. Electronics are similar in all cars these days, and they can be costly to repair. I wonder how much Monroe's nanny warning telling him traffic has started moving would cost to fix? MBs have got more gizmos than most D3 cars....but, most cars have very sophisticated electronic devices these days, and I have a suspicion they these devices will be expensive to fix. You know how we used to fix a broken TV, but now when it doesn't work we toss it out and buy a new one? That may start happening with cars. The washing machine that used to last 25 years, now lasts 8 years. We will see. Wasn't the cost of getting a convertible roof to work about $3000?

A new key was going to cost me $600, but one guy said a key for his Nissan Murano was $400.....electronics and gizmos could become very costly to fix...for all makes.

No the cost of getting the convertible roof to work was a bit under a grand, but there were other things that needed attention that brings the grand total to just over $3k.

Just to add a footnote, my indie mechanic said he can do all the work sans the top for about 20% less than the dealer. He also noted that getting 150k on the odometer (currently has 136k) should be no issue if I don't do anything to it. That should take through to next fall.

snakeweasel · May 2019

ab348 said:
Driver never said it was saving him hundreds of dollars a month. That was a poorly formatted quote from snake talking about his Sebring.

Yes that was me responding to someone telling me I should have traded in a year ago. The savings being that I do not have the car payment that I would have had if I dumped the car a year ago.

ruking1 · May 2019

driver100 said:

explorerx4 said:
Well driver100, I can't how your car(E) is saving you hundreds of dollars a month, when it is depreciating $1000 a month. Clue me in on the math.
I never intended for my car to save me $100s a month. As an investment the E 400 would be a disaster. I bought it because I like driving it, I really like the safety (like I said, I doubt we would be walking today if we were driving something else the day we were hit), and I can afford it. I might as well enjoy life as much as I can....I am at the stage in life when I don't want or need to try and save money. If I was at a stage of life when I might need a bigger home, or are expecting another kid, or paying for kids educations I for sure wouldn't be driving an E. I would have to be more practical, possibly a Honda Accord I don't know. But, I am not driving the E to try and save money. If that was my goal I would be better off with a used Accord, as I only use it for 7 months and drive about 7500 miles a year.

Then the (defacto) plan was to LOSE hundreds, if not thousands of $’s a month?

oldfarmer50 · May 2019

driver100 said:

snakeweasel said:

driver100 said:

snakeweasel said:

driver100 said:

tjc78 said:
No doubt owning any car for over 10 years will always be cheaper than consistently buying/leasing new.
It probably will, but will it always start when you have an important job interview, will it breakdown on the way to your daughters wedding, will the transmission fall out on the way to a friends funeral, will it stall out on the highway on a 300 mile trip?

Reliability is worth a lot too. You could still end up paying more if you lose your job because your car won't start in the morning several times. Plus down time in the garage. A new car allows you many years of trouble free driving, and you have a good start at maintaining it properly.
I consistently take cars to ten years and never had any of those issues. Unless you're driving 20k or more miles a year 10 years of driving isn't a lot of miles for modern cars. Any decent car can do it and do it reliably.
This idea that cars easily make it to 200000 miles is a bit of a myth. Here is a list of how many miles you can go before a car becomes worthless.

The company came up with a list of the Top 10 brands, in terms of the maximum number of miles at which their cars and trucks become theoretically “worthless.” Nadjarian said some smaller-volume brands may have fallen off the list due to small sample sizes.

Here’s the list, according to mojomotors.com:

1. Toyota – 210,705 miles until worthless;
2. Honda – 209,001 miles until worthless;
3. Ford – 198,409 miles until worthless;
4. Dodge – 198,266 miles until worthless;
5. Chevrolet – 195,754 miles until worthless;
6. Nissan – 195,593 miles until worthless;
7. Subaru – 189,370 miles until worthless;
8. GMC – 188,584 miles until worthless;
9. Acura – 178,947 miles until worthless;
10. Mazda – 177,729 miles until worthless
I believe some like Dodge and Chev are because of their trucks. You can see that only the top reliable cars make it to 200k and then are worthless. Your 2008 Sebring should have been traded in one year ago

Worth is a subjective notion. I fond diamonds a waste of money my wife would disagree. As for the Sebring it does have value, at least for me. The car runs and does so pretty well, it started up easily when we had 25 below weather and while there is a very light vibration coming from the engine when stopped if you put it in neutral or park you couldn't tell the car was running. I have no worries about reliability for the near future and would take it on longer trips.

So my car does have value to me in as much as it is saving me hundreds of dollars a month.

.....as long as you don't want to put the top down.

Since Snake doesn’t fear ex rentals he should look at one of the Mustang ecoboost convertibles we have for sale. I got to drive one for about 100 miles today. Nice power, although it was noticeably slower than a GT. After 20k miles of what I assume was brutal treatment it was still tight and handled a bit better than my V8. I think the EB has a better weight distribution due to the smaller engine.

And it got over 34mpg on the highway.

snakeweasel · May 2019

oldfarmer50 said:

driver100 said:

snakeweasel said:

driver100 said:

snakeweasel said:

driver100 said:

tjc78 said:
No doubt owning any car for over 10 years will always be cheaper than consistently buying/leasing new.
It probably will, but will it always start when you have an important job interview, will it breakdown on the way to your daughters wedding, will the transmission fall out on the way to a friends funeral, will it stall out on the highway on a 300 mile trip?

Reliability is worth a lot too. You could still end up paying more if you lose your job because your car won't start in the morning several times. Plus down time in the garage. A new car allows you many years of trouble free driving, and you have a good start at maintaining it properly.
I consistently take cars to ten years and never had any of those issues. Unless you're driving 20k or more miles a year 10 years of driving isn't a lot of miles for modern cars. Any decent car can do it and do it reliably.
This idea that cars easily make it to 200000 miles is a bit of a myth. Here is a list of how many miles you can go before a car becomes worthless.

The company came up with a list of the Top 10 brands, in terms of the maximum number of miles at which their cars and trucks become theoretically “worthless.” Nadjarian said some smaller-volume brands may have fallen off the list due to small sample sizes.

Here’s the list, according to mojomotors.com:

1. Toyota – 210,705 miles until worthless;
2. Honda – 209,001 miles until worthless;
3. Ford – 198,409 miles until worthless;
4. Dodge – 198,266 miles until worthless;
5. Chevrolet – 195,754 miles until worthless;
6. Nissan – 195,593 miles until worthless;
7. Subaru – 189,370 miles until worthless;
8. GMC – 188,584 miles until worthless;
9. Acura – 178,947 miles until worthless;
10. Mazda – 177,729 miles until worthless
I believe some like Dodge and Chev are because of their trucks. You can see that only the top reliable cars make it to 200k and then are worthless. Your 2008 Sebring should have been traded in one year ago

Worth is a subjective notion. I fond diamonds a waste of money my wife would disagree. As for the Sebring it does have value, at least for me. The car runs and does so pretty well, it started up easily when we had 25 below weather and while there is a very light vibration coming from the engine when stopped if you put it in neutral or park you couldn't tell the car was running. I have no worries about reliability for the near future and would take it on longer trips.

So my car does have value to me in as much as it is saving me hundreds of dollars a month.
.....as long as you don't want to put the top down.

Since Snake doesn’t fear ex rentals he should look at one of the Mustang ecoboost convertibles we have for sale. I got to drive one for about 100 miles today. Nice power, although it was noticeably slower than a GT. After 20k miles of what I assume was brutal treatment it was still tight and handled a bit better than my V8. I think the EB has a better weight distribution due to the smaller engine.

And it got over 34mpg on the highway.

Since the next car will be my wifes and she doesn't like the mustang convertible I will take a pass.

roadburner · May 2019

For me, a car simply has to be entertaining. There’s not a thing wrong with most any of the cars built by the Big 3, Honda, or Toyota- but there are at most only two or three cars from each brand I could realistically see myself owning. Ditto for Audi, Lexus, Mercedes, and VW. I cannot imagine leaving work and be faced with the prospect of having to drive a soul-slaughtering appliance home. Any additional expense required to maintain cars that make me smile is more than worth it.

ruking1 · May 2019

roadburner said:
For me, a car simply has to be entertaining. There’s not a thing wrong with most any of the cars built by the Big 3, Honda, or Toyota- but there are at most only two or three cars from each brand I could realistically see myself owning. Ditto for Audi, Lexus, Mercedes, and VW. I cannot imagine leaving work and be faced with the prospect of having to drive a soul-slaughtering appliance home. Any additional expense required to maintain cars that make me smile is more than worth it.

McLarens’ that I see every time @ the local dealer? Cheapest one I saw was $235,100. 😜 $340,800 was the top? But then, there’s the blue plate special?🤪

https://www.mclarensanfrancisco.com/specials/specials-page.htm

oldfarmer50 · May 2019

snakeweasel said:

driver100 said:

jmonroe1 said:

driver100 said:

Hey JM, You should go to an MB dealer, say you are thinking of trading in the wannabe....and take a test drive so you can experience 'The Real Thing". Tell us what you think.

Is it OK to wait until MB can match the warranty period of the one I have?

jmonroe

MB doesn't need to have an extra long warranty....people will buy them with a regular 3 year warranty.
10 year warranty is done by wannabe companies.....because they know it will help sell cars, or they will be out of business and won't have to honor the warranty anyway.

The flip side is that companies that offer 10 year warranties know their cars are reliable and that warranty claims wont be much. And that companies that only warranty their cars for three years know that they expose themselves to pricey warranty claims.

I don’t believe that for a minute. Mitsu, Hyundai and Kia all have 10/100k warranties not because they make superior cars but to make up for previous scandals where they got caught making crap cars.

oldfarmer50 · May 2019

dino001 said:

snakeweasel said:

If they are that bad and unreliable....I wonder why people buy them?

Status symbols.

Brutal, but unfortunately accurate assessment of large portion if not majority of customers. There are some people who buy it not for as a symbol, but as a product that they actually like on its merits, especially if spotless reliability is not their priority, but say certain way the car drives, certain way the dealer treats you, or that espresso bar at the customer lounge

.

I have to say, I got my first Subaru in 2003 at a dealership that sells mostly luxury cars, I later serviced it at another one that was Subaru-only family owned outfit with a very honest and open culture. This was my first new car experience, very decent one. I have visited many "popular brand" dealerships since then many times and more often than not my skin just crawled and it felt like I needed a long hot shower afterwards. I didn't even have to talk to anybody, it was enough to see the setup, salespeoples' faces and displayed vehicles with their ADMs, or some silly accessories/mop&glo add-ons, etc. Then the salesperson opens their mouth and it gets even worse. Megadealers of largest Japanese or Korean brands were the worst, no doubt. When you enter a Toyota, Honda, or Kia store, there is something in the air that makes those places fairly unpleasant. Not all of them, but enough of those here in my area. I never had that feeling at upscale dealers, whether Benz, BMW, Lexus, or even Volvo, or those several Subaru places I frequented. There I felt like a customer, not a piece of meat.

Funny you mention that, three of four new car purchases were from family own small non chain stores. The experience was better.

oldfarmer50 · May 2019

driver100 said:
btw...a friend in Florida has a 1986 BMW that has over 250000 miles on it, looks like this;

It still runs nice. He does most work himself, but he says an indie garage is the best bet for repairs. Hourly fee for mechanics is more reasonable, and new car dealers don't have the training to work on older cars.
How many people do you know that have an 86 Chev, Buick, Ford, Toyota etc?

I had a F-150 Ford with that many miles.

It didn’t look that good.

ruking1 · May 2019

oldfarmer50 said:

dino001 said:

snakeweasel said:

If they are that bad and unreliable....I wonder why people buy them?

Status symbols.

Brutal, but unfortunately accurate assessment of large portion if not majority of customers. There are some people who buy it not for as a symbol, but as a product that they actually like on its merits, especially if spotless reliability is not their priority, but say certain way the car drives, certain way the dealer treats you, or that espresso bar at the customer lounge

.

I have to say, I got my first Subaru in 2003 at a dealership that sells mostly luxury cars, I later serviced it at another one that was Subaru-only family owned outfit with a very honest and open culture. This was my first new car experience, very decent one. I have visited many "popular brand" dealerships since then many times and more often than not my skin just crawled and it felt like I needed a long hot shower afterwards. I didn't even have to talk to anybody, it was enough to see the setup, salespeoples' faces and displayed vehicles with their ADMs, or some silly accessories/mop&glo add-ons, etc. Then the salesperson opens their mouth and it gets even worse. Megadealers of largest Japanese or Korean brands were the worst, no doubt. When you enter a Toyota, Honda, or Kia store, there is something in the air that makes those places fairly unpleasant. Not all of them, but enough of those here in my area. I never had that feeling at upscale dealers, whether Benz, BMW, Lexus, or even Volvo, or those several Subaru places I frequented. There I felt like a customer, not a piece of meat.

Funny you mention that, three of four new car purchases were from family own small non chain stores. The experience was better.

Indeed we’ve a local family owned VW dealership!

driver100 · May 2019

"jmonroe1"

How many people do you know that have an 86 Chev, Buick, Ford, Toyota etc?

Six.

jmonroe

I mean today....not in 86

qbrozen · May 2019

driver100 said:

btw...a friend in Florida has a 1986 BMW that has over 250000 miles on it, looks like this; It still runs nice. He does most work himself, but he says an indie garage is the best bet for repairs. Hourly fee for mechanics is more reasonable, and new car dealers don't have the training to work on older cars. How many people do you know that have an 86 Chev, Buick, Ford, Toyota etc?

Well, to be honest, more people than I know who have an ‘86 BMW. But its not exactly a fair comparison. 1. I live in truck country. 2. The real question is “how many do you know who are still enjoying driving an ‘86 CHev/ford/mopar?”

I wouldn’t lump the japanese in there because there are plenty of ‘80s versions of those running around and some are quite fun.

driver100 · May 2019

explorerx4 said:
@driver100,
What I'm trying to get across to you is that invisible depreciation can be more costly than an actual repair.
I guess if you didn't keep pushing the perspective that new is always better, I wouldn't keep responding to you.

I have never said "new is always better". In fact I explained that the CPO C250 was a much better deal financially, buying it used, since it only goes 6k miles a year....on short trips. Even my everyday car, the E would make more sense buying a CPO financially speaking....but, I buy new because I can, not because I think new is the smart way to buy.

In some situations buying a new car is better.....if you are keeping it for 8 to 10 years, and a few other cases like putting high miles on it, or if you need maximum reliability.

ruking1 · May 2019

This de tune supra in-line six engine was the power plan for my father and mother’s 1986 Toyota Cressida station wagon https://news.yahoo.com/why-2jz-engine-strong-breakdown-104407906.html

driver100 · May 2019

oldfarmer50 said:

driver100 said:

snakeweasel said:

driver100 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

driver100 said:

oldfarmer50 said:
Is this really happening? Is the tech to do this readily available? Opinions?

https://youtu.be/dkHFf4_oAKs
Worthwhile watching.....thanks for posting OF. Confirms my thoughts about CL and the newspaper these days.
I believe they have those devices, and I wouldn't buy a car from CL. There are too many things that can go wrong, and too many scammers trying to make a quick buck. Pay a bit more, and buy from a dealer who has a good reputation and a warranty. The only other way to buy is from someone you know, directly or indirectly.

What makes you think some dealers don’t do the same thing?

Also your discussion about the cost of body repair made me think of a few videos I've seen where many insurance company “preferred” body shops have been caught doing shoddy work leaving cars to rot out from the inside or become unsafe. One Honda I saw was supposed to have 23 welds on a certain panel but the shop only did 11. In a crash the car would have folded up like an accordion.
You take precautions and do the best you can do to protect yourself;
*Dealers could could turn back mileage or sell salvaged cars....but, highly unlikely a new car dealer or a very highly rated reputable independent is going to sell garbage....they make their money by selling good quality cars and doing repeat business.

*Body shops similar. A body shop could cut corners but eventually the insurance company will cut them off. Often they belong to organizations which accredit them as trustworthy.....we have garages and repair shops that belong to Car Stars.

The 2014 C Class we bought 2 years ago was a CPO car, they do 120 point inspection. Do you know how nice it is to know all the light bulbs are going to work, all the controls are working, the brakes are safe etc, and if not they will guaranty it for....in this case, 2 years. Might pay a few $1000 more, but, it is better than throwing away $25000!
But how do you know they did the inspection?
They have a document where they check off each item.....it is like a contract....the mechanic signs off that the work was done. Mercedes knows that their reputation is at stake....and they want their used cars to be 1st class as it supports the trade-in values etc. They want to make it so you can buy in confidence. That certificate means the car is guaranteed for a total of 5 years, 3 years original warranty plus anything up to 5 years....if it was fraudulent they could end up in big trouble.
And do you still believe in Santa? If someone has dishonest intentions a CPO is worthless. A salesman once told me a CPO is just an insurance policy a dealer takes out on a used car that pays for stuff that breaks.

And you know car salespeople never lie.

Could be....but, all the things checked off work....no broken light bulbs, no missing knobs, all the gauges work. When you think of the things that could go wrong with a used car, I want a guaranty. I could have bought a similar car from a guy near Orlando for $3000 less....someone here passed it on.......what if I bought it there with no warranty, and it was a rental and things went wrong. You can say what you want, I believe the dealer that sold me this car wants my repeat business, and they will do as much as possible to make this car a good purchase.

driver100 · May 2019

ab348 said:
Driver never said it was saving him hundreds of dollars a month. That was a poorly formatted quote from snake talking about his Sebring.

Thanks ab....I thought I had a mild case of dementia. I don't see how I could have said that....it would make no sense.

driver100 · May 2019

snakeweasel said:

ab348 said:
Driver never said it was saving him hundreds of dollars a month. That was a poorly formatted quote from snake talking about his Sebring.
Yes that was me responding to someone telling me I should have traded in a year ago. The savings being that I do not have the car payment that I would have had if I dumped the car a year ago.

....and I said you wouldn't have a $3000 repair bill if you traded in the Sebring a year ago! Gotta know when to hold them and when to fold them. That $3000 could have gone into a newer car.

driver100 · May 2019

snakeweasel said
Worth is a subjective notion. I fond diamonds a waste of money my wife would disagree. As for the Sebring it does have value, at least for me. The car runs and does so pretty well, it started up easily when we had 25 below weather and while there is a very light vibration coming from the engine when stopped if you put it in neutral or park you couldn't tell the car was running. I have no worries about reliability for the near future and would take it on longer trips.
rSo my car does have value to me in as much as it is saving me hundreds of dollars a month.

Driver said.....as long as you don't want to put the top down.

Thanks oldfarmer.....you found the quote that was taken out of context.

stickguy · May 2019

Any reputable dealer should do a full check of a car, so anything included on the CPO list. Might vary at what point they replace something that is still OK (like brake pads) but you are still getting a car that is good to good. Plus, most CPO cars are still under new car warranty when sold, so you really don't have to worry about some small item you don't find until later.

but really, the CPO benefit is the extended warranty (at least the part with a tangible $ value).

and there have been plenty of reports of the CPO process getting short changed. Time is money and all that.

I think that so many CPO units are new and low mile enough that they just assume stuff is fine so don't really pay attention to it. You think they really pull out the air filter on a car with 8K on the clock to look at it?

explorerx4 · May 2019

@driver100,
Doesn't change the fact that your car is depreciating $1000 a month and you think it's better than spending $1000/$3000 total on a car that can help it last many more years.
I'll admit one thing that bothers me is your 'spend the kids inheritance' perspective.
My kids are great, so I can't fathom the reason for that attitude.
Our family is about building up the next generation, plenty of exceptions though, like many others.
One of my kids is working on generational wealth. We will probably be able to help with that, although it's a lofty financial goal.

roadburner · May 2019

explorerx4 said:
@driver100,
Doesn't change the fact that your car is depreciating $1000 a month and you think it's better than spending $1000/$3000 total on a car that can help it last many more years.
I'll admit one thing that bothers me is your 'spend the kids inheritance' perspective.
My kids are great, so I can't fathom the reason for that attitude.
Our family is about building up the next generation, plenty of exceptions though, like many others.
One of my kids is working on generational wealth. We will probably be able to help with that, although it's a lofty financial goal.

I solved that dilemma by having only one kid; not only did it keep me out of Minivan Hell, it lets my wife and I live the way we want to without worrying if RB Jr. will be shortchanged. I did tell him that if he did not want the Club Sport I was going to donate it to the BMW CCA Foundation museum...

stickguy · May 2019

at this point, my kids will be supporting me, not the other way around.

driver100 · May 2019

explorerx4 said:
@driver100,
1) Doesn't change the fact that your car is depreciating $1000 a month and you think it's better than spending $1000/$3000 total on a car that can help it last many more years.
2)I'll admit one thing that bothers me is your 'spend the kids inheritance' perspective.
My kids are great, so I can't fathom the reason for that attitude.
Our family is about building up the next generation, plenty of exceptions though, like many others.
One of my kids is working on generational wealth. We will probably be able to help with that, although it's a lofty financial goal.

1) Explorer....where's the cut off. Should I drive an 8 year old Corolla so that I can save a few $1000 a month? You drive a nice new F-150, maybe you should buy a 1959 Dodge Fargo and use the extra cash for something else.
2) Families are different. I am glad you have a happy cohesive family. I have one SIL that is impossible to like considering what his personal problem is...he is the one who broke into the house and stole the car. The others will probably do quite well if I go. But, it isn't something I obsess about, hopefully the 3 adult children have the tools to make it in the world. Some of the worst things to do is giving children too much easy money.
3) Not sure what generational wealth is. If that kid is finding ways to save money for the future or have a good pension then that is great. The best favor you can teach kids is to teach them how to live happy productive lives, if you can help them financially then even better. We support grandchildren's post high school educations, we give money to help at times....but, that is because we can......I don't feel compelled to do it, I do it because we can - it isn't a major goal.
*I'll tell you a bigger mistake and I have seen this a few times. People who have some money and don't know how to enjoy their money. One couple had a few million dollars, drove an 8 year old Uplander (geez), didn't have air conditioning, no dishwasher. House wasn't looked after. Bought KFC on $2 Tuesdays. house needed paint, repairs, and a general cleaning. They were afraid to spend their money. The $2 1/2 million estate went to their niece and nephew in England who couldn't care less about these people........the nephew visited for awhile every 5 years, the niece once in 10 years. Now, that is a real crime. Not saying go wild....saying there is a balance.

oldfarmer50 · May 2019

stickguy said:
at this point, my kids will be supporting me, not the other way around.

Can they support me too? They seem generous.

snakeweasel · May 2019

driver100 said:

snakeweasel said:

ab348 said:
Driver never said it was saving him hundreds of dollars a month. That was a poorly formatted quote from snake talking about his Sebring.
Yes that was me responding to someone telling me I should have traded in a year ago. The savings being that I do not have the car payment that I would have had if I dumped the car a year ago.
....and I said you wouldn't have a $3000 repair bill if you traded in the Sebring a year ago! Gotta know when to hold them and when to fold them. That $3000 could have gone into a newer car.

But I didn't spend $3,000, that $3,000 would make all the needed repairs, repairs that I have not made. I am keeping the $3,000 for a down payment when I replace the sebring next fall (hopefully).

fintail · May 2019

That's the best reason to have kids, right?

The inheritance/generational wealth talk is amusing, but I suppose in this new age where economic mobility has declined, the idea of "building it yourself" is even more of a fairytale than it was in the less expensive/less competitive past.

stickguy said:
at this point, my kids will be supporting me, not the other way around.

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