Subaru Crew - Future Models II

paisan · August 2003

Also... Think of starting with the STi and work your way up from there

-mike

ateixeira · August 2003

Exactly, a 2.5l will basically do everything 25% better (potentially).

Heck, the Forester XT starts for an invoice of $23.3k, start there. I bet a chip alone takes it to 260hp.

-juice

leo2633 · August 2003

juice: as I recall, Motor Trend named the mid-70's Plymouth Volare/Dodge Aspen Car of the Year. My father-in-law bought one. Total junk. They also named the circa-1983 Renault Fuego (owned by Chrysler at the time, I believe) COTY. My sister-in-law bought that. It was worse than the Volare. I've been scared of any of MT's COTYs since then!!!

Len

paisan · August 2003

Yup tonight we are doing an FMIC and turbo upgrade on an STi. Pics will follow! We did one last weekend on a WRX pics at http://azpinstalls.com/installs/fmic-07-03

-mike

ateixeira · August 2003

If I were still single (LOL), I'd have an XT with 17" rims, upgraded sways, and maybe a chip. Heck, it's quick enough without one.

My money would be better spent on a couple of FATT events.

-juice

paisan · August 2003

We actually talked him out of the injectors til he gets an ECU upgrade.

-mike

dcm61 · August 2003

Mike,

Over at nabisco, there's a guy named Murray from West Chester, PA (next town over from me) and his signature has an email: bbi@azpinstalls.com

Is he part of your group?

DaveM

paisan · August 2003

They do similar installs as we do, may be bringing them on on a trial basis to cover the SE PA and MD and DE areas since it's a far reach for us in NJ/NY/LI.

Nice guy did a swap in his L to a 2.5RS motor.

-mike

dcm61 · August 2003

I might be meeting Murray tonight. There's a Cruise Night (car show) at a dealer in West Chester tonight and he's suppose to be there; I'll probably stop in. I saw a post of his that he's applying for a job at my dealer.

DaveM

rsholland · August 2003

http://www.fhi.co.jp/english/news/press/2003/03_08_08e.htm

Here's a picture of the unmasked Outback!

Bob

nematode · August 2003

Nice to finally see a 5spd auto but no mention of a manual or SMG like system. Also I hope the US version gets the 3.5L H6 because with the current 3.0L H6 (even with the 5spd atuo) it will have minivan beating accleleration but not much better than that. Smooth, yup. Quiet, yup. Exciting? Nope. I am still holding out hope for the 2.5T 300hp in the Legacy.

sweet_subie · August 2003

outback is nice !!!!

they should come up with proper engine for it

& same weight reduction as they did to legacy

sweet_subie · August 2003

outback is nice !!!!

they should come up with proper engine for it

& same weight reduction as they did to legacy

hypov · August 2003

3.0R...
what does the "R" mean?

-Dave

rsholland · August 2003

Since Subaru will be offering an H-6 European Legacy, I now think the North American Legacys will also get this engine. I still think we won't see it with a manual, however. From this press release, it doesn't sound like the Europeans will be getting a manual option with the H-6. So if Europe doesn't get a manual (afterall, they sell far more manuals in Europe than here), you can pretty much take it to the bank that we won't either.

Also, I still haven't ruled out a larger H-6 for the North American market.

Bob

rsholland · August 2003

if the Legacy does end up with an H-6 option, the Outback sedan is history.

Bob

subewannabe · August 2003

for the European market. I wonder what that is about?

Wow, that Outback looks great! I like the monochrome look much better than the contrasting cladding. I guess we'll be trying to second guess SoA about the engine and tranny choices right up to the day the first ship unloads at the port.
but the looks are much improved and will bring over a lot of new customers.
Mark

nematode · August 2003

Not having a manual with the Legacy with the high end engine variant is a BIG mistake that is almost as big as the whole $30k+ VDC and LL Bean.

The more I hear the more I dont like what Subaru is going to do with the Legacy. What I hoped for:
1) The H6 should be 3.5L and say exclusive to the OB.
2) The Legacy line should have H4 165hp, H4t 225hp, and the GT at H4T 300hp.

No manual or SMG???? "Sport shift" is not going to get it done.

jimmyp1 · August 2003

it occurs to me you ought to email that Australian guy again who, so mater-of-factly, stated that an H6tt was coming to his shop soon. Wonder what he would say now.

Jim

paisan · August 2003

How many "smg" units do you think SOA would sell? Honestly? You have to think about it as they would. R&D and get back a tiny tiny portion of that on the sales. You won't see it happening anytime soon.

As for myself? 400hp/400lbs torque H6 3.0t will work fine with a 5EAT VTD Shiftronic tranny thank you very much.

-mike

lucien2 · August 2003

I disagree. I don't need SMG (or want the expense), but there's a lot of 5MT 2.5RS, WRX and GT owners out there. Sport shift is a crock in most any car. Few of them actually hold a gear and fewer still respond quickly enough. If I can't shift for myself, there's no new Legacy in my future, period.

paisan · August 2003

But luc, look at the market, look at the subie buyers, lets be honest, can they make money on it, cause that's the bottom line, not if only a handful of you real enthusiasts will buy em, but will SOA make money on them, and IMHO the answer is, probably not so. A 5MT is way more likely than an SMG unit IMHO. That is far easier to stick in an H6 than something they'd have to design, even a 6MT would be easier, IMHO.

There has to be some kind of production or engineering reason we haven't seen any MTs on H6s since the XT6. I'm not sure why but maybe patti could shed some light on that.

-mike

paisan · August 2003

I'd take a unit like my SVX has, it upshifts at redline if you leave it in 1, and downshifts to the lowest possible gear that wouldn't blow-up at the speed you are going, works very well on the track.

-mike

lucien2 · August 2003

I agree with you there, but we're talking about the real possibility of auto-only hi-test Legacys here. No MT at all. Thanks anyway, I'll either look at a WRX wagon or a used A4/A6 Avant

subewannabe · August 2003

i think juice is onto a good notion that the outback and legacy will be further differentiated as Subaru develops a specific market for each.up to this point, there really wasnt anything but perceived image to point at as a real difference between the outback and legacy. five years ago, hardly anybody in the USD market bought a MT Audi A6; now the Audi boards are full of MT enthusiasts who also go for the 2.7 twin turbo over the NA 3.0.
The initial allotments are likely to be heavily skewed to the sportshift/auto, because it adds a pretty nice profit margin to each vehicle sold, but if demand calls for more MT's, more will show up eventually. I cannot begin to fathom why anybody would even consider a WRX with AT, but they sell a lot of them. go figure. On the other hand, i can see myself spending a little more than I planned on a Legacy GT with AT if it also provides a lot of luxury and still gives a lot of performance for the extra money.
Mark

bluesubie · August 2003

Is that the first mention of the new H6's power from Subaru (245 ps)?

Prodrive is working on an SMG-type tranny. Haven't heard if Subaru will use it though.

-Dennis

ateixeira · August 2003

I'll stick to my original wish: Outbacks go H6 only, base and only engine in there. Let them go after the meat of the market, the volume segment.

Legacy can have an L with the 2.5l, a GT with the 2.5T, and an STi with whatever the engineers dream up. Let *only* that last model, the STi, exceed $30 grand in price.

That leaves zero overlap, my main concern. If the Legacy also gets the H6, and the Outback also gets the turbo, that leaves "cladding" and the #1 differentiation. 100% overlap. You'll end up with customers cross shopping both all the time.

-juice

subewannabe · August 2003

I agree with juice on this. Many potential Subaru buyers are confused by the current overlap and option levels re: engines on the Outback and Legacy and are surprised at the range from just over $20 all the way to $33K MSRP on the same platform.
Mark

ateixeira · August 2003

They should differentiate more, not less.

Give the Outback a low range while you're at it. The spare really ought to be a full sizer, more important here than on the Legacy.

-juice

nematode · August 2003

if they still buy a Subaru in the end. At least I would bet thats what Subaru would say.

In my opnion the biggest problem they will have sharing the H6 around is that they risk losing the identity of each line. I dont mean the specifics of platform sharing and engine/transmission combinations. I'm refering to the actualy "identity" of each line thats carried by its top end models. Its not just a Subaru. Its a Subaru Outback or Subaru Legacy. I still like the idea of:

Outback = hopefully 3.5L H6 only, SUV/hybrid, smooth operation, "upscale", lots of stuff standard (like VDC), 5spd auto only?. Ditch the VDC and Bean. Just Outback, Outback L, and Outback Limited.
Range: $25-31k.

Legacy (base) = 2.5 H4, family car, value leader for the Subaru faithful.
Legacy GT = 2.5 H4t 225hp, steal buyers of other brands.
Range: $21-26k.

Legacy GT STi = 2.5H4T 300hp, low volume, serious M3-like performance.
Range: $35k.

So in summary:
Outback: Its a upscale SUV alternative that offers safety, room, comfort, and quiet cruising.

Legacy: Its for the Subaru faithful in sedan and wagon form. You can get the Legacy in an auto or manual. They should not stray far from their core buyer as a niche player.

Legacy GT and STi: Continue the trend started by the WRX and XT. Safe, comfortable, and lets not forget really fast

Only the OB Ltd. and the Legacy STi would crack $30k. I dont want the Outback to be a "step up" from the Legacy. I want it to be a separate upscale alternative to an SUV. At same time I want the Legacy to EXPAND the performance niche Subaru has tapped.

rjweiss · August 2003

Does anyone know if Subaru is planning on producing a van or truck (more room than the Baja) in the near future?

I need one to haul all my triathlon racing stuff around, bike swim stuff etc.

I'd love to see them come out with something like that, especially turbo driven. It would go nice with my XS premium Forester.

Thanks

Ron W.

kens · August 2003

Let's take a different look at engines by examining the competition:

Outback: SUVs and hybrids, Volvo XC --> Makes sense to offer the H6. I would even say that the 2.5T would work too (think Forester XT).

Legacy GT: "sportier" near-luxury sedans like the A4, 3-series, Acura CL Type-S/TSX --> Yep, turbo needed here. An H6 would work too, but for cost reasons, we'll say turbo only.

Legacy STi: Stretching to compete with M3 and S4 --> okay, all out performance needed so it looks like the 2.5T is the only choice.

Legacy: Mainstream family cars like Accord, Camry and Passat --> Wait a sec, all these models offer a 6-banger in their line up! The Subaru only has a NA 4? It doesn't make sense!

I think the H6 should be offered in the Legacy line. There's plenty more ways to differentiate the OB from the Legacy, IMO.

Ken

erics6 · August 2003

My guess is that the 05 Outback will still be offered with a slightly revised 2.5 H4. The H6 will be the fancier model. I'm hoping we'll see a 2.5 turbo too.

The Outback is Subaru's bread and butter. I think there are a lot of people looking at the Outback who won't want to pay the extra for the H6. I'd be curious, but I'll bet the current H4 Limited outsells the LL Bean & VDC H6 handily. Now, if the new H6 is offered at current H4 prices that would be a different story all-together.

locke2c · August 2003

Ken,

I seriously doubt even a full STi-spec 2.5L turbo is going to be enough for a Legacy to 'truly' compete with the M3 and S4.

One has already moved to a V8, the other has very high-strung inline six and is rumored to be moving to V8 soon. I think a turbocharged six cylinder would be necessary to play in that market, but am not sure that Subaru has any business being there in the first place.

-Colin

mikef11 · August 2003

I have to disagree with the thoughts of an H6 only Outback. The Outback is different than the Legacy and should have a range of options for power and luxury. For me the biggest drawback of the H6 is that it is AT only. If that was the case with the current model, I probably wouldn't be driving a Subaru today.

I think that the Outback should also keep the cladding. It helps separate the Outback and looks better in the current generation, IMHO. Looking at pictures of the new Outback, my friend summed it up best by saying "Accord headlights, Taurus taillights - It no longer has distinctive Subaru looks, it looks like any other generic Japanese car". It still looks like a nice car, just not distinctive anymore.

In the end Subaru should also consider the Outback for back roads, not just as a luxury car (It is an Outback, not a Downtown).

MikeF

kens · August 2003

Colin,

Oh, I agree that the STi wouldn't be in the same ballpark as the M3 or S4 with a 2.5T so that's why I used "stretching"!

I just couldn't think of another vehicle grouping that people would cross shop a Legacy STi with. It kind of stakes new ground between the near-luxury sedans and the M3/S4 arena.

Ken

rsholland · August 2003

being shown over on the nabisco site, for those interested.

Bob

paisan · August 2003

Will be the B11s. H6TT 400hp 405lbs torque or thereabouts.

-mike

subewannabe · August 2003

Unless Subaru wants to leap into the $50K market, why would they envision themselves as competing with those LUXURY sport sedans ? Thats the best part of the WRX and Forester XT mystique: performance of the premium marques at half the price!
The German automakers have lost all perspective of reality. Consider the Audi RS6...sure, its a performance/luxury monster....at $86K before luxury taxes, it better be!! BMW has their own inadequacy/compensation problem showing with the new M3 and M5. At least the Big 3 make some effort to make their oversize monsters affordable to somebody who lives in the same town and eats at the same restuarants that I do, rather than a few celebs on the coasts.
Mark

locke2c · August 2003

um... there are 2500 employees in my building and an S600, M5 and 750iL in the parking lot every day. two men worth 3.5bn each show up at least a few days a week.

but I'm just being facetious. I definitely agree that Subaru has no business really competing in the luxo-GT market. a sub-$35k Legacy packing 275-300 HP (in whatever form) with a manual tranny would open plenty of doors for Subaru.

-Colin

rsholland · August 2003

It looks as if the Outback's world debut will be at Frankfort. As we all know, what Europe (and the rest of the world) gets, is not necessarily an indication of what we will get (2.5 STi, for example). With that in mind, it might be fun to guess as to what the US-spec Legacy and Outback will get. Here are my thoughts:

Legacy

Legacy 2.5R
2.5 DOHC w/AVCS H4 at ~ 175 HP, 5-speed manual & 5EAT w/Sportshift.

Legacy 3.0R
3.0 DOHC w/AVCS H6 at ~ 240 HP, 5EAT w/Sportshift.

Legacy 2.5GT
2.5 DOHC turbo w/AVCS H4 at ~ 270 HP, 5-speed manual & 5EAT w/Sportshift.

Outback

Outback 2.5R
2.5 DOHC w/AVCS H4 at ~ 175 HP, 5-speed manual & 5EAT w/sportshift.

Outback 3.0R
3.0 DOHC w/AVCS H6 at ~ 240 HP, 5EAT w/sportshift.

Outback 3.0 LL Bean
3.0 DOHC w/AVCS H6 at ~ 240 HP, 5EAT w/sportshift w/ VDC.

Possible curveballs...

* I think all automatics will get VTD.

* I still think all North American-spec H6s could be larger than 3.0, but with still ~ 240 HP. My reasons for thinking this are: Some of the North American-spec Legacy/Outback's competition (Maxima/Altima, MB C-Class) have larger 6-cylinder engines than 3.0, and the above-mentioned North American-spec 2.5 STi. I'm guessing we could see an H6 somewhere between 3.2L and 3.5L.

* I think a 'Premium Package' (moonroof & Leather) will be standard on the Legacy GT and Outback LL Bean, and will be optional on all the others.

* What about the 210 HP low-boost turbo? I still think this could show up somewhere on the Legacy & Outback lineup. I find it hard to believe that it would be restricted to just the Forester and Baja. If it does show up, it my guess is that it would be the base engine for the Outback, or an additional Outback model slotted just above the NA 2.5 Outback.

Bob

nematode · August 2003

I agree most OB buyers will not pay the hefty premium to get the H6. Since most brands that Subaru wants to compete with already provide 6s, I would raise the price on the entire line a little and provide the H6 and VDC as standard equipment. Instead of the base MSRP at $23-24k I would do $24-25k.

Just as an example the Highlander and Pilot above $25k have 240hp V6 engines. Subaru cannot come in too far below that. Thats just where the bar is set and the major reason the VDC and Bean were a failure in the $30+k range. There is no way that the VDC was $2-3k better thant he top model Pilot or Highlander. I dont even think it was as good and their current selling price reflects that. I'm not sure everyone would agree with me about my driving/quality impression but I bet most people would. The people who bought the VDC or Bean intitally REALLY wanted a Subaru. Thats just not enough to make Subaru a real player. The WRX and XT attracted new buyers. The VDC and Bean did not. I see a trend. I hope Subaru sees it too.

If Subaru does not want to repeat the same mistake they need to come in at or below $30k with everthing (H6, VDC, leather, fancy stereo, etc.). If they really want to price it above those (say around $35k) they need to come in with 275hp.

subewannabe · August 2003

I agree the current "minimum" for a family auto with any illusion of sporting flair is now at 240 HP..even the mini vans are there now.

sweet_subie · August 2003

http://www.subdriven.com/artman/publish/article_57.shtml

rsholland · August 2003

and a large 3/4 rear photo are over at nasioc, in the News & Views section, in a thread about the Frankfort show.

Bob

sweet_subie · August 2003

top of the line new Quest is 37k MSRP ? ridiculous

rsholland · August 2003

yesterday a top-of-the-line, loaded Sienna AWD with a $41K MSRP!

Bob

nematode · August 2003

If you want one of the AWD Siennas with combo premium package......you are either going to wait or pay MORE than the $41k. Its a nice minivan but its not that nice!!!!

rsholland · August 2003

I was reading the comments of some guy who had been invited to a focus group to see the new Outback. I'm pretty certain I read it in a nasioc forum, I just don't remember which one.

In any event, a couple of things he mentioned were: steering wheel controls for the radio, and multi-adjustable seat heaters. There were a few other items too, which escape me at the moment.

So, it sounds like Subaru is refining a lot of the details, which is good.

Bob

rsholland · August 2003

This interesting: I just did search over ar nasioc to see if I could find that thread I just mentioned. No luck, but I stumbled upon this thread.

I spent part of Saturday afternoon at a Subaru focus group in Sunnyvale at Nichol's Research. We spent over an hour talking about car names and what we liked about badging. We also looked at a new 7-Seater Subaru Mini-van sort of looking thing. They talked about possible alpha-numeric combinations as a replacement for the Outback name. Possible new names fer Subaru cars were names like:

Surveyor (For the new Minivan-looking SUV)
B5-2.5T
B9X
B9000

A lot of "B"'s, for Boxer. They even had replacement names for the WRX, but I can't remember what they were.

There were about 8 of us there, all Subaru WRX wagon owners. I got my snack on and $100 for the time!

Veeeeerrrry Interesting!

Bob

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