Here's the text from that thread I was referring to:
I was at a Subaru clinic this Saturday, for current Outback owners. The Outback they had looked like the pictures shown. Most of us were ready to trade ours for the new one. Subaru did a great job. The car looks great.
Some of the changes that I noticed: Softer Leather Power Passenger Seat Radio Controls on the steering wheel Manimatic Transmission Outside mirrors with directional signals Differnt wood trim Grayish Brown color Gear Shift wood/leather Heated seats are adjustable instead of high/low settngs Front, side, head curtin airbags Space for a navi unit on the top of the dash Something on the liftgate which we assumed was something like a rear window shade To us that were there, it looks like the car had xeon(sp) headlights
im no math major, but the numbers cited in the FHI web article about the next gen outback intro at Frankfurt convert roughly to over 245 HP for the new H6 3.0...of course they arent trying to meet US emission standards..but that will make some folks take notice.
Interesting to read that post from that guy who went to that focus group where they were considering possible "B" names for future Subarus.
It had been mentioned once before, and again with this post, that Subaru was considering "B9," or some derivative of that, as a possible name for the new crossover. Here are my thoughts regarding this, as it pertains to the crossover, as well as other Subie models:
Names in general It seem with upscale brands, alpha-numeric labeling is the accepted way of labeling models, at least for European and Japanese brands. Acura started with model 'names' for their vehicles, but has now converted to the alpha-numeric formula. It seems conventional names are more associated with 'mainstream' brands, and we all know Subaru wants to be considered a premium brand. So my guess is -- image being all important -- expect future Subies to go the alpha-numeric route.
I do like using "B" as a prefix to all future Subaru labeling. The "B," as we know, stands for boxer engine, which is the main feature that distinguishes Subarus from other brands -- especially as other brands offer more and more AWD cars. So hammering the "B thought" is not a bad thing, IMO.
As it pertains to the crossover (and other models) These were some of the names mentioned in that focus group:
B5-2.5T I'm assuming the "5" pertains to the Forester platform in this case. Of all the "B" names listed, to me this makes the most sense. It indicates the platform (5), the engine size (2.5) and the fact that it's a turbo (T). This offers the most flexibility in terms of keynoting different models.
B5-2.5T = Forester 2.5XT B5-2.5S = Forester 2.5XS B5-2.5 = Forester 2.5X B5-2.5D = Forester 2.5 diesel, if and when it occurs.
B9X A bit too cutesy IMO. The "X" suggests experimental. There's no indication of engine displacement, or if it's a turbo or not. I think it's too vague.
B9 Again too vague, and too subject to having jokes being made of it.
B9000 Sounds too much like a Saab -- not a good thing IMO, especially now with their alliance.
Surveyor If they abandon the alpha-numeric plan, I rather like this name. Subaru Surveyor has an almost musical ring to it.
Surveyor, finally a name instead of "future 2005 SUW thingy". Even if it's not official, at least we can refer to it that way!
From that info, looks like the Outback is definitely going upscale, more so than the VDC model did anyway. If this strategy holds up, my H6-exclusively idea would fly pretty well.
For those that want a MT 2.5l, well, they'd probably get a Legacy neeways.
I think the WRX, Forester, and Outback names all carry a lot of weight, it would not be wise to drop them. They are universally recognized even though Subaru has just 1% overall market share. Only Legacy is relatively unknown.
Subaru is so tiny that how many people would bother to learn their whole new alphabet? B4? After? B9? Malignant? We've gone over that...
I like the names, even Legacy. But Impreza, the basic platform, has the worst name! What is it called in Japan? Maybe its time for a true Japanese name...Arigato?
"Surveyor" is pretty good mental image for a larger vehicle for Subaru, and doesnt reek of false macho like the Big 3 suv's..will appeal to the women buyers.
2005 Subaru Surveyor 3.0l H6 or 2.5T tuned to run on regular Light Blue Metallic 7 seater, 2nd and 3rd rows fold flat VTD AWD 5 speed SportShift 16" alloys cloth, no Navi, no HIDs, no frills
I'd want it with or without a moonroof. Price it just under the Mercedes CST (under $30k).
I think it needs to be even cheaper than that considering you can get a HOnda Pilot equipped almost like that with a sticker around $27K. Of course, I think the Subie AWD is superior, but the Honda resale can't be overlooked. If the Honda is cheaper, Subaru will not be able to get new buyers with their offering.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Well, the Benz will be under $30k, and the Subie should cost less than the Benz, so yeah, essentially I agree with you.
Are Pilots still selling for MSRP? I ask because with VIP pricing the Subie would come out cheaper and still have a longer warranty. But mostly I'm hoping it's more fun to drive.
The Pilot is fine for passengers, sleep-inducing for the driver. Not bad, just not sporty in any way. I'd kind of lean towards an Odyssey if I was going to give up the whole driving experience.
depends if you are willing to pay sticker. according to the salespeople, yeah, they are still selling for MSRP. But many buyers (including myself) say otherwise.
Nope, its not sporty. But most people are thinking "7 or 8-passenger, SUV, economical, and sporty." Usually there is a trade-off in there somewhere. The Pilot does a hell of a job fitting most of the bill, though. And the acceleration is really quite impressive in my book for a +20mpg 4400 lb. SUV, even if it doesn't take a turn like our Forester did (and, again, its much larger and heavier, so I would never expect it to).
Hard as I tried, I couldn't talk my wife into a minivan. But, in the end, I'm glad that she at least has AWD to rely on.
So, in any case, I think, at this moment, the Pilot and the Highlander would be the main competition for a Subie 7-pass. Any others I can think of are either too high-end or too low-end. I think, to turn some shopping heads, they should come in with a 240-260 hp model with your basic features like CD player with 6-7 speakers, power windows and locks, climate control, cruise, and tilt for something like $25,995. I know this sounds really off when you look at the current pricing of other H6 models in the lineup, but how can you see Honda and Toyota shoppers crossing over if they gotta spend more or even the same on a Subaru?
Don't get me wrong, I think the subaru would probably be superior in many ways, but most Honda and Toyota shoppers don't think that way and really don't want to risk taking a chance on something different.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
meant to type "most people AREN'T thinking "7 or 8-passenger, SUV, economical, and sporty.""
but you knew what i was saying.
differentiating itself is definitely the tough part. Based on some of the hot cars as of late, I'm thinking style can possibly tilt the scales. The Pilot and Highlander are rather vanilla in the styling department. Subaru isn't exactly known for its style, but maybe this would be a good time to start thinking about that.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Actually, no, and I got a little confused, thinking you'll have to compromise somwhere! )
Pilot is indeed like a good vanilla ice cream, maybe a double scoop of Breyer's. Still, vanilla is the industry standard. Subaru simply cannot launch a similar, competing model and price it at $35 grand.
Interesting comparisons. I never gave them any thought until last week, when my wife brought up both the Pilot and Highlander as replacements for her Accord. She also mentioned the MDX and the Volvo XC90 but crossed those off once she learned of their price.
At one time we had discussed her taking my Forester and me replacing it with a new XT, but I don't think that interests her now. Your description "most Honda and Toyota shoppers don't think that way and really don't want to risk taking a chance on something different" describes her nearly spot on. I think she will have to drive those vehicles and realize how much differently they handle compared to the Accord and Forester before she commits to one or the other.
That's why I pay less and less attention to reviews nowadays, I often disagree with one particular reviewer 100%. You just have to drive it yourself, perhaps more than once, and form your own opinion.
Also, look at some of the counterpoints Edmunds and C&D have, right there none of the Editors can agree.
Taken FWIW, the best thing is to find out what to look for, perhaps, but not let it bias your opinion in the end.
nice acceleration.....felt good while zooming through a Maxima in style......fast & nice on slopes i could not see any lag compared to WRX! going to sue that USA Today guy.
Considerable difference in Brakes, steer, shocks compared to old forester.
Does not feel luxurious though e.g can't do auto climate control by each degree only in 5 degrees....that's fake.....No driver seat adj...only manual.
but very functional though but not lux....so, i want to take look at lux legacy before buying becos this time i will keep mine for 10 yrs.
But forester ride was awesomely tight, no body roll, quick turns, made a short circle......all compared to my Big Fat heavy H4 OB !
In two words, quickly and smoothly. With virtually imperceptible lag from the turbo, the Forester XT shoots away from standstill, unlike its less endowed Forester brethren.
Most impressive is acceleration from low speeds -- say, 40-50 km/h up to highway speed. In that range the torquey motor really launches the vehicle, and if you don't keep your eye on the speedometer, you'll quickly enter "big ticket" territory.
The smoothness of the Forester XT is also notable. The engine is much quieter than previous versions, and the long-travel suspension, rigid chassis and somewhat high-profile tires give occupants a very quiet and comfortable ride.
The U.S.-market 250-hp turbo, at 2.5 liters in displacement, is down about 30 horsepower from the Japanese-market 2.0-liter turbo at 280 hp. The optional engine will be a naturally aspirated 3.0-liter flat-six, also making 250 horses, a reworking of the six currently employed in the Outback.
It was great fun to toss around. It should cause concern for a lot of pricier cars, and we think the U.S. car's power sacrifice shouldn't dissuade anyone. With any luck, the turbo car should sell in the $27,000-to-$29,000 range, with the blown wagon going for $3000 more.
If we could have gotten the H6 Outback for $23k back when we bought the Legacy, we probably would have. The cheapest H6 at the time was over $26k, the LL Bean.
So many of these XT reviews are just fluff. Most have no instrumented testing, even. Go 129mph, like C&D did, sheesh.
Wagons typically cost $500-1500 more than their sedans counterparts. Not $3k.
With 250hp a fully loaded sedan should come in around or below the Acura TL (less than $30k) my entry level luxury benchmark. So around $30k for the wagon......That may work.
If they are going to test $30k+ it will need 300hp to make a dent or prices will fall rapidly.
as VW takes the passat wagon up the price scale, more and more folks start looking at volvo and, for a real budget stretcher, audi and bmw wagons as alternatives. Maybe subaru is betting this will create a vacuum of folks who want a reliable, well-equipped wagon in the $26 to $30 K range, depending on engine choice and optional equipment( f/k/a passat wagon buyers ) Mark
worked beautifully as an Audi-light in the below $30k wagon range.
I'm going to type some of this next part in caps: The Passat worked beautifully WHEN IT COST LESS THAN ACTUALLY GETTING AN AUDI!!!!!!!!!! Still have no idea what they were thinking.
I remember seriously shopping for a Passat wagon for my wife back in 2001. The wife and I test drove a bunch of different configs, but we just couldn't swallow spending around $32k, without 4Mo by the way. Then, last year I was looking at Jetta wagons for myself. Subaru wasn't even on my radar screen. But, I happened to wander into a Subie dealer and test drove an Outback. I was hooked! Some shopping around and I got mine for cheaper than a comparably equipped Jetta wagon.
VeeDubs cost a bit more at the same level of equipment, pretty much compared to any non-luxury brand. They are nice inside, though. If they can get reliability up to snuff, watch out.
It is that reliability I worry about. I had an '80 VW diesel bunny. Worst car I have ever owned: timing belt replaced twice, freeeze plugs replaced, seat fabric ripped, leaky sunroof, rusting bumper. I traded it after only 8 months. Went to a wonderful '81 Honda Civic GL hatch. It concerns me that 22 years later quality is still an issue with VW.
Is it me, or is that an Acura logo in the middle of the steering wheel on Autoweek's website? Also, that interior looks to be different from the earlier pics of the 2005 Legacy...hmmm.
The description of the car sounds really juicy, but also like they need to beef up the transmission cooler. I wonder how they arrived at the very exact sounding $23,212 price. I also wonder whether I can wait a year until the choices become even harder?
Comments
I was at a Subaru clinic this Saturday, for current Outback owners. The Outback they had looked like the pictures shown. Most of us were ready to trade ours for the new one. Subaru did a great job. The car looks great.
Some of the changes that I noticed:
Softer Leather
Power Passenger Seat
Radio Controls on the steering wheel
Manimatic Transmission
Outside mirrors with directional signals
Differnt wood trim Grayish Brown color
Gear Shift wood/leather
Heated seats are adjustable instead of high/low settngs
Front, side, head curtin airbags
Space for a navi unit on the top of the dash
Something on the liftgate which we assumed was something like a rear window shade
To us that were there, it looks like the car had xeon(sp) headlights
Hope this helps a little
Bob
Bob
Hope that is done across the board.
-Dave
It had been mentioned once before, and again with this post, that Subaru was considering "B9," or some derivative of that, as a possible name for the new crossover. Here are my thoughts regarding this, as it pertains to the crossover, as well as other Subie models:
Names in general
It seem with upscale brands, alpha-numeric labeling is the accepted way of labeling models, at least for European and Japanese brands. Acura started with model 'names' for their vehicles, but has now converted to the alpha-numeric formula. It seems conventional names are more associated with 'mainstream' brands, and we all know Subaru wants to be considered a premium brand. So my guess is -- image being all important -- expect future Subies to go the alpha-numeric route.
I do like using "B" as a prefix to all future Subaru labeling. The "B," as we know, stands for boxer engine, which is the main feature that distinguishes Subarus from other brands -- especially as other brands offer more and more AWD cars. So hammering the "B thought" is not a bad thing, IMO.
As it pertains to the crossover (and other models)
These were some of the names mentioned in that focus group:
B5-2.5T
I'm assuming the "5" pertains to the Forester platform in this case. Of all the "B" names listed, to me this makes the most sense. It indicates the platform (5), the engine size (2.5) and the fact that it's a turbo (T). This offers the most flexibility in terms of keynoting different models.
B5-2.5T = Forester 2.5XT
B5-2.5S = Forester 2.5XS
B5-2.5 = Forester 2.5X
B5-2.5D = Forester 2.5 diesel, if and when it occurs.
B9X
A bit too cutesy IMO. The "X" suggests experimental. There's no indication of engine displacement, or if it's a turbo or not. I think it's too vague.
B9
Again too vague, and too subject to having jokes being made of it.
B9000
Sounds too much like a Saab -- not a good thing IMO, especially now with their alliance.
Surveyor
If they abandon the alpha-numeric plan, I rather like this name. Subaru Surveyor has an almost musical ring to it.
Bob
Mark
From that info, looks like the Outback is definitely going upscale, more so than the VDC model did anyway. If this strategy holds up, my H6-exclusively idea would fly pretty well.
For those that want a MT 2.5l, well, they'd probably get a Legacy neeways.
I think the WRX, Forester, and Outback names all carry a lot of weight, it would not be wise to drop them. They are universally recognized even though Subaru has just 1% overall market share. Only Legacy is relatively unknown.
Subaru is so tiny that how many people would bother to learn their whole new alphabet? B4? After? B9? Malignant? We've gone over that...
-juice
Forester, Outback and Baja have subatance. Surveyor fits right in.
Now they need an off roader called "Geologist".
TWRX
-Dave
"Surveyor" is pretty good mental image for a larger vehicle for Subaru, and doesnt reek of false macho like the Big 3 suv's..will appeal to the women buyers.
Mark
3.0l H6 or 2.5T tuned to run on regular
Light Blue Metallic
7 seater, 2nd and 3rd rows fold flat
VTD AWD
5 speed SportShift
16" alloys
cloth, no Navi, no HIDs, no frills
I'd want it with or without a moonroof. Price it just under the Mercedes CST (under $30k).
-juice
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Are Pilots still selling for MSRP? I ask because with VIP pricing the Subie would come out cheaper and still have a longer warranty. But mostly I'm hoping it's more fun to drive.
The Pilot is fine for passengers, sleep-inducing for the driver. Not bad, just not sporty in any way. I'd kind of lean towards an Odyssey if I was going to give up the whole driving experience.
-juice
Nope, its not sporty. But most people are thinking "7 or 8-passenger, SUV, economical, and sporty." Usually there is a trade-off in there somewhere. The Pilot does a hell of a job fitting most of the bill, though. And the acceleration is really quite impressive in my book for a +20mpg 4400 lb. SUV, even if it doesn't take a turn like our Forester did (and, again, its much larger and heavier, so I would never expect it to).
Hard as I tried, I couldn't talk my wife into a minivan. But, in the end, I'm glad that she at least has AWD to rely on.
So, in any case, I think, at this moment, the Pilot and the Highlander would be the main competition for a Subie 7-pass. Any others I can think of are either too high-end or too low-end. I think, to turn some shopping heads, they should come in with a 240-260 hp model with your basic features like CD player with 6-7 speakers, power windows and locks, climate control, cruise, and tilt for something like $25,995. I know this sounds really off when you look at the current pricing of other H6 models in the lineup, but how can you see Honda and Toyota shoppers crossing over if they gotta spend more or even the same on a Subaru?
Don't get me wrong, I think the subaru would probably be superior in many ways, but most Honda and Toyota shoppers don't think that way and really don't want to risk taking a chance on something different.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
How will it differentiate itself from the Pilot, or even the AWD Sienna? It's a tough market now, much tougher than it was 5 years ago.
From Bob's post the guy said it looked like a van, too, so the Sienna and Odyssey will be compared with it, most likely.
-juice
but you knew what i was saying.
differentiating itself is definitely the tough part. Based on some of the hot cars as of late, I'm thinking style can possibly tilt the scales. The Pilot and Highlander are rather vanilla in the styling department. Subaru isn't exactly known for its style, but maybe this would be a good time to start thinking about that.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Pilot is indeed like a good vanilla ice cream, maybe a double scoop of Breyer's. Still, vanilla is the industry standard. Subaru simply cannot launch a similar, competing model and price it at $35 grand.
-juice
At one time we had discussed her taking my Forester and me replacing it with a new XT, but I don't think that interests her now. Your description "most Honda and Toyota shoppers don't think that way and really don't want to risk taking a chance on something different" describes her nearly spot on. I think she will have to drive those vehicles and realize how much differently they handle compared to the Accord and Forester before she commits to one or the other.
Ed
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/wheels/134908_road15.html
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/reviews/healey/2003-07-24-for- ester_x.htm
Also, look at some of the counterpoints Edmunds and C&D have, right there none of the Editors can agree.
Taken FWIW, the best thing is to find out what to look for, perhaps, but not let it bias your opinion in the end.
-juice
Considerable difference in Brakes, steer, shocks compared to old forester.
Does not feel luxurious though e.g can't do auto climate control by each degree only in 5 degrees....that's fake.....No driver seat adj...only manual.
but very functional though but not lux....so, i want to take look at lux legacy before buying becos this time i will keep mine for 10 yrs.
But forester ride was awesomely tight, no body roll, quick turns, made a short circle......all compared to my Big Fat heavy H4 OB !
Keep something in mind - the luxury items you wish for add weight, too, not just cost.
-juice
Dealers in MA are willing to sell XT for 2k less MSRP. I am surprised, i thought XT pricing will hold for a while.
More surprising, 2003 OB 6Cly, i could buy it for 23 (after 1250 cash back)......that's good deal !
VDC for 3.5 to 4k less before 1.25 cash back.
http://autos.msn.com/vip/jedlicka.aspx?modelid=10802&src=vip
C&D said the same thing.
Most impressive is acceleration from low speeds -- say, 40-50 km/h up to highway speed. In that range the torquey motor really launches the vehicle, and if you don't keep your eye on the speedometer, you'll quickly enter "big ticket" territory.
The smoothness of the Forester XT is also notable. The engine is much quieter than previous versions, and the long-travel suspension, rigid chassis and somewhat high-profile tires give occupants a very quiet and comfortable ride.
http://autos.canada.com/national/researching/roadtests.aspx?year=- 2179
It was great fun to toss around. It should cause concern for a lot of pricier cars, and we think the U.S. car's power sacrifice shouldn't dissuade anyone. With any luck, the turbo car should sell in the $27,000-to-$29,000 range, with the blown wagon going for $3000 more.
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=29&article- - _id=7028
Jim
So many of these XT reviews are just fluff. Most have no instrumented testing, even. Go 129mph, like C&D did, sheesh.
Wagons typically cost $500-1500 more than their sedans counterparts. Not $3k.
-juice
If they are going to test $30k+ it will need 300hp to make a dent or prices will fall rapidly.
Mark
I'm going to type some of this next part in caps: The Passat worked beautifully WHEN IT COST LESS THAN ACTUALLY GETTING AN AUDI!!!!!!!!!! Still have no idea what they were thinking.
-juice
Jon
-juice
Is it possible to find metal that rusts that fast? Do they seek out bad suppliers? Coat them with salt instead of zinc? ;-)
-juice
-Brian
Jim
Bob
Brian
Anyway, the wife's Quest lease is up fall 2005. Now, if I can get her to take my Outback, and buy a nice new turbo wagon....Yeah, right.
Jon
Ed
http://www.automobilemag.com/toc/