Subaru Crew - Future Models II

paisan · October 2003

"Offering a 3.0 H-6 hybrid will do several things: It will establish Subaru as a leader in the hybrid market, thus polishing that "premium" image. The audience for crossovers (as well as minivans, and mainstream sedans) I think will be very receptive to this kind of eco-friendly powerplant."

Hmm I dunno, when I think of premium, hybrid is not at all part of my notion. I think of walnut wood trim, vault-like silence inside, big v12 power plants (S600, 760il), Navigation, HUDs, Leather, heated/vented rear seats, etc.

What do you guys think of when you think Premium, do you think Prius or S600?

-mike

subearu · October 2003

When I think of premium (or ultra-luxury), I think of an E or S class MB, in black with black leather. Powerful, but quiet, and very comfortable.

-Brian

rsholland · October 2003

I agree with your comments, but I also think of premium as being a leader in technology. BTW, if the latest rumors of the all-new Acura RL and NSX being hybrids is true, the econo-image of hybrids will disappear.

Bob

paisan · October 2003

Unfortunately I don't consider Acura to be a premium car. They just don't close with the thunk of a BMW, Benz, LS400, Landcruiser, etc.

-mike

jlemole · October 2003

Did anyone notice: "R2...designed to be sporty and classless". Now that's funny!

Jon

twrx · October 2003

$45,000 is a premium to pay for a car. (RL) $34,000 is the price of the new TL.(That is still a premium price as far as I am concerned). It is one nice luxury hot rod. How's that, they aren't "premium" they are luxury hot rods. I have a friend with the new TL, an MDX and an NSX. Got to drive that NSX last month. Knew I could never own one but driving one was on a short list of things to do in my lifetime. My friend was an all "X" car family until last week. His 3rd car had been a 2002 WRX sedan but he traded it in on the TL. His comment was as long has he had to service it out of town (he was afraid to take it to the local dealer after my horror story) he might as well have an Acura. (We have never had an Acura dealer here). Guess the local Subaru dealer loses a sale. BTW: my old 2002 WRX wagon is going to be resold by the dealer rather than sent to the auto auction. Car dealers who lie, wow what a concept!
TWRX

hondafriek · October 2003

That B9 prototype looks like a future replacement for the Miata.

Cheers Pat.

subewannabe · October 2003

If I get a 05 Legacy GT wagon, my wife will want it real bad...but she has to drive her A6 for a few more years to get some value out of it. Maybe there will be a B9 Roadster for me to drive around the mountains by then. SWEEEET!!!!

Mark

ateixeira · October 2003

CNG? Man, where do they find the time and money to do all this stuff? They're developing a diesel and the R2 is a hybrid, all at the same time? Whew.

The Hybrid's image will change when the Lexus RX comes out with that powerplant. Keep in mind that's the market segment leader - the RX.

The Civic and Prius were litmus tests to see if there was a market. Thinking 5 years ahead, I can see how hybrid and upscale will become synonymous.

Pat: let Mazda dream. Have you seen the eventual Miata replacement? It looks like the toy that the B9 Scramber would play with. It even has a silly name, I forget now, Bob's link had a photo and more details.

-juice

paisan · October 2003

My guess is that they will only be accepted if they are forced on people. IE: the RX may be the segment leader, but if there is a "std" version that is the same in all ways as the hybrid, and the hybrid is say $3-5K more money, it won't sell. I think Lexus or whoever would have to make it an across the board change on a model that sells well. In other words, if the RX is the hot #, then they'd need to turn around and next year or "X" year, and say "it will only be available in hybrid next year!" that would force people into them, and thus make it mainstream.

-mike

kens · October 2003

I agree with mike for now that "hybrid" conjures up images of Priuses (pl. Pria? Prii?). However that image can change if manufacturers start putting hybrid engines in luxury models. With Hollywood celebrities driving hybrids, it's sorta the new chic.

Ken

ateixeira · October 2003

You're probably right, mike. Hybrids are a niche market, so Lexus will be smart and have a regular powertrain standard.

Economically, they don't make sense. Fact is it will cost you more to own overall.

However, I see the extended range as a nice benefit. Imagine being able to go 700 miles instead of 400 or so, per tank.

I think now you qualify for a $3000 tax deduction, too, but even in a 40% tax bracket the tax benefit is just $1200 max.

Lots of celebs drive hybrids, like Leo DeCaprio for instance.

-juice

paisan · October 2003

hmm I can only go about 250 miles on my personal bladder tank, so 700 doesn't help me much

-mike

ateixeira · October 2003

I see what you mean, but for me range gives me the freedom to wait to find gas at a cheaper station!

Seriously, this weekend I found gas in parts of rural Virginia that was FIFTY ONE cents per gallon cheaper than near my house in Potomac, MD.

Having massive range like that allows you twice as much time to "shop around" and doubles the chance that I'll find gas as good prices.

My Miata's tank is small, range is pathetic. I usually fill up after 270 miles, and almost always I end up paying an arm and a leg for gas. Can't go out of my way because it might run out! LOL

So I see range as a real benefit, even if it's well beyond your own personal range. Besides, you prolly average 85, in 4 hours you've gone 340 miles already!

-juice

paisan · October 2003

Wow $.51 cents on 10 gallons is what? $5? I dunno maybe it's the economy up here, but most gas for me is no more than $.10 off in a given area, so that's what $1? For me it is definitely not worth it to "shop" for gas, not worth my time or effort.

Also my guess is that they won't extend the range, you will see tanks get small. Smaller tanks means less weight intially, and less weight of fuel to carry.

-mike

twrx · October 2003

They are a tough sell if you like performance. i have bought 2 WRX's since they became available. I know that hybrids are a good thing from an environmental standpoint. To me they actually make sense economically too: all of the models are about $20,000, decently equipped and qualify for the $2000 federal tax credit. Last year's 400hp/40mpg Acura excites me though. I hope the B9 will be decent performance with decent mileage. Then I'd really consider one. And I do think the B9 is really cool looking. (And strangely enough I don't like the style of the B11)

TWRX

ateixeira · October 2003

$5 per tank, mike. It adds up.

Realistically I think I could save 10% fuel costs just by having the luxury of more miles to shop around.

If tanks get smaller the advantage (to me) all but disappears, they'll fail for sure.

The Civic Hybrid is a tough sell given a regular Civic sedan costs a few grand less; that buys a lot of free gas. The new Prius bumped up to mid-size, although I'm not sure if it's a Camry alternative. I think a Matrix would still carry a cost/utility advantage.

So range is the main selling point to me. My wife hates filling up - if she could leave that up to me then she'd be thrilled, I'm sure.

-juice

paisan · October 2003

Most cars are setup to have a range of 300+/- miles per tank @ EPA ratings. Hence a bohemouth of an Excursion gets like a 40gal tank for it's 8mpg, etc. etc. I'd not be the least bit suprised if they reduce the tank size on hybrids to match the 300+/- range. I still would argue that pricing of $.50/gal difference is a stretch, unless you travel to different areas often. In my travels (and I drive 50K/year) the gas pricing at any given time is only $.10/gal which comes to about $1/tank which for me isn't worth the penny pinching.

-mike

rsholland · October 2003

One of the big advantages of a hybrid is, when the electric engine is engaged, that engine (electric) puts out make power at "every" rpm. So, starting from a dead stop, it's putting out max power.

As to image, as I and others have stated, that will change as they become more plentiful, in different classes of cars.

Bob

hondafriek · October 2003

I meant the B9 could be an eventual replacement for your Miata, you in particular have been wishing that Subaru would do a roadster.

Cheers Pat.

kens · October 2003

Bob,

That's a good point. I think for hybrids to be successful in premium models, they need to offer a benefit other than just fuel efficiency.

Ken

rsholland · October 2003

but "premium" can also mean cutting-edge technology. I'm sure if Acura offers hybrid technology on their top-of-the-line RL and NSX, they're not just doing it for fuel efficiency. It's to say: "We're the best, and this is why we're the best."

Bob

paisan · October 2003

What is the point? Doing something for the sole reason to be able to say you did it is kinda pointless IMHO. I'm all for hybrids if they provide something for me personally. So let's see what they cook up.

And I think Bob's idea of Premium is a bit far stretched, for that matter Kia is a premium brand "Look at how much we can accomplish on a super light budget"

-mike

locke2c · October 2003

the Forester XT is making due with only the 'reinforced' 5MT and it is the same old case in that case, not a new one. so the Legacy will probably get the same.

some users have destroyed the 5MT in their Forester XT. I doubt hot dogging it is a good idea but under normal use it should be fine.

-Colin

rsholland · October 2003

You really know how to twist my words. How you can make that kind of analogy is beyond me...

Bob

paisan · October 2003

Bob, did you not say that they are providing something unique???? I'm taking your example to an extreme, "Premium" could be any niche seller's way of saying "we are different". I dunno, I'm just saying I think you are stretching "premium" a bit far...

-mike

ateixeira · October 2003

50 cents is a stretch, but I see variations of at least 20 cents all the time.

If you lived in Potomac, you'd shop around too. It was $1.849 yesterday! Ouch!

Compare that to rural VA, even 10 miles away, and you're talking 30-40 cents difference.

Pat: B9, yes, definitely.

Here's an idea for the hybrid - let that electrical motor serve as a generator for power outages. I would have loved having one on those 7 days after Isabel!

-juice

ateixeira · October 2003

Seriously, now, let's run with that idea.

A good generator runs $2 grand, per Consumer Reports. That right there offsets most of the extra cost.

Top that off with better mileage, double the range, and Bob's good point that torque at zero rpm on the electric motor is at its peak already.

See, now you could sell it even from a value standpoint.

What do you think? It's not far-fetched, my cousin borrowed a work truck with a generator and had power all week long while my frozen food slowly rotted.

-juice

paisan · October 2003

Compare that to rural VA, even 10 miles away, and you're talking 30-40 cents difference.

Yup you don't need a 700 mile range to do that though. I shop around, for instance I never fill up in NYC, always fill up in NJ when I'm over there, which is about 10-20miles away.

-mike

ateixeira · October 2003

Prolly not, but my point was you'd have twice as long to get to one of those stations. In other words, if you passed a station and had gone more than, say, 300 miles, you could always top it off and go another week without stopping for gas again. We go to those places on weekends so that would work out even if we only went every 2nd weekend!

I kind of doubt you'd be a hybrid customer, mike. Diesel, maybe, but for different reasons (torque, I'd suspect). A hybrid AWD SUV is a tiny niche within a niche.

I can't even picture you in a Civic Hybrid, in fact I'd pay to see it! LOL

The generator idea is intriguing. We're considering purchasing one and are budgeting for it and that might, just might, put the 7 seater back on our list. :-)

-juice

rsholland · October 2003

http://www.subdriven.com/artman/publish/article_101.shtml

njswamplands · October 2003

kens · October 2003

Looks nice. I wonder how the back looks.

That's a photo of the wagon, right?

Ken

rsholland · October 2003

It will only be available as a wagon.

Bob

jlemole · October 2003

Any idea when it will be available in the U.S. and how it will be priced?

Jon

rsholland · October 2003

Next spring I think, and probably a bit more expensive than the matching Impreza.

Bob

rsholland · October 2003

and it's now called an "Outback," and no longer called a "Lancaster." Ken, can you translate, or point anything new we don't already know?

http://www.subaru.co.jp/index.html

Bob

rsholland · October 2003

http://apexjapan.com/

rsholland · October 2003

of the SOJ Outback and its interior over on the "other site" in the "News & Rumors" area. These are the best shots I've seen, and really show the richness and quality that Subaru has achieved in the interior.

Bob

rsholland · October 2003

Interesting to note that the new Legacys and Outbacks don't have any extra badges denoting "H-6" or various trim levels ("R" or "i"). The only way of noting these trim levels is via wheels and color of cladding. I like this a lot. I'm not at all fond of extra badges, as they clutter up the look. Honda does this with their Pilot and minivan. I hope this trend carries over to US-spec models.

Bob

tincup47 · October 2003

Land Rover tried doing away with model badging on the Discovery in 2000, unfortunately without an easily identifiable model designation it killed the residual values on the higher optioned vehicles. So we went back to badging these vehicles with the model identification in the US. Many times there are reasons for the way vehicles are marketed that are not easily rationalized by the public, but have effects on the bottom line for the manufacturer.

robr2 · October 2003

juice - I recall one pickup that was going to be offered with electric receptacles in the bed to run power tools and the such. I think it was Dodge.

It's not enough to run the house but it'll keep the fridge running.

ateixeira · October 2003

SOLID! The 9-2 looks excellent. Arguably more attractive than the WRX it's based on. Huge thumbs up.

If Saab puts in a nicer interior, prices it a little higher, it might just satisfy those that like the WRX but have been asking for a little more luxury. If Saab is smart, they'll offer it to them.

Now, offering the N/A 2.5l is a big mistake. Saab's current ads even mention the entire lineup is turbocharged. They should stay that way, and avoid overlap with Subaru.

Another vote for the de-badging trend.

Rob: I think I saw that, too. I know they exist because my cousin's food didn't spoil, and mine did!

-juice

robr2 · October 2003

9-2: I've heard the interior will be all Subaru - no changes. How true that is, I don't know.

Electric Power: What I recall was not a generator in the truck, but power provided by the engine. Personally I wouldn't want to leave my vehicle running on the job site all day but...

kens · October 2003

I'm looking through the SOJ website now, but there's tons of stuff to read and look at!

Lots of gorgeous pictures of the Japanese countryside with Mt. Fuji in the background.

I don't think there is anything "new".

Here's a sublink that has some photos:
http://www.subaru.co.jp/legacy/wo/index_f.html

Ken

bluesubie · October 2003

Lifted from nabisco ..
"GM: Industry News
More News Latest News Special Offer News Model News Industry News Environment News Advice News News Archive
21/10/2003

The Saab 9-2X will be unveiled in mid-December in Los Angeles. Essentially a restyled Subaru Impreza, but with a reworked interior and a top-dollar specification, it will come in five-door, four-wheel drive form only with either Subaru's normally-aspirated 2.5-litre four-cylinder engine (9-2X Linear) or the turbocharged 2.0-litre, 227bhp unit (9-2X Aero). ..."

kens · October 2003

Ed,

You've gotta show the pictures of the new Outback to your wife. I just shared some pictures with mine and she <gasp> likes it!

What ever happened to that anti-wagon syndrome?

Ken

ateixeira · October 2003

If they use the same interior, well, that would be a big mistake. I even think heated leather/suede should be standard.

I wonder what "reworked" means. They should use thicker carpets, too. Appeal to a different audience than the WRX.

-juice

rsholland · October 2003

Regarding no trim level badging: Your point is interesting, and something I wouldn't have thought of. However, Honda continues to do so with the Pilot and Odyessy.

Bob

ateixeira · October 2003

Don't even get me started about Odyssey resale. It's absurd, they sell for very, very close to new MSRP. Totally insane.

Might as well buy new.

-juice

Subaru Crew - Future Models II

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