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I know this is the wrong forum but, at least guys know what your price is for a while at least.
You should try living here where you do not know what gas is going to cost on any given day, it is usually at its highest on Fridays and then slowly drops by about 10 cents a litre over the course of a week. Then we start all over again.
Incidently all the gas company's prices are the same no variation,(but then our Federal Government says there is no price fixing, what would you call this, if there is no price competition)
This goes on week in and week out all year long, it is enough to drive a teetotaler like me to drink:-)
According to Automobile magazine, the crowds love the B9 concept (as does the magazine). Finally, Subaru gets some press coverage that doesn't use the words "weird" or "strange" in describing a new Subie.
Bob: B9 looks better in those shots than others previous, but I'm still having a hard time warming to the grille treatment. I am warming to the little R1e and wonder if it wouldn't make a better WRC car than the Impreza.
I like the looks of the B9, and the grill adds just a touch of difference. Add to that the engine, and it could be a contender. do the concept cars at Tokyo ever make it to the States?
Loads of pixs, from all angles, over at nabisco. There seems to be no middle ground; people either love it or hate it. I think (know!) in the long run, it's the right move for Subaru, and people (like yourself) will most likely adjust and come around. I'd like to see it in person.
is that the B9 looks great. Hopefully it makes it to production in some form. It reminds me of a discussion on these boards a few months ago, about someone wishing for a Subaru convertible/ roadster (was it Juice?). I think then that the general consensus was that it would never happen. Maybe it will;-)
The love it - hate it territory is familiar ground for Subaru. It seems that their styling and mechanicals have always had a polarizing effect. At least they make you feel some emotion, good or bad. There seems to be so many vehicles out there these days that stimulate only boredom and, yawn, apathy. It's great to see Subaru pushing the envelope a bit. Even if their concept cars don't generate a completely positive reaction, it's still a reaction, and their name gets a little more into the collective consciousness. That can only be a good thing, and as more and more seemingly odd features make it to production cars, these concept cars will appear more palatable and 'normal'. Just my 3.52 cents (Can.) Owen
unanimously lauded by showgoers; it was rare to see the car without a throng of admirers around it
Major score. Even the B11S didn't get a reaction that positive.
Tweak the headlights, plus the too-Z4 taillights. But keep the proportions and the basic look.
AN said the R2 will replace the Pleo, but it 154 pounds lighter and close to the top in fuel economy for the class. That confirms Subaru has been putting lots of effort into weight savings and fuel efficiency.
I like this trend - let the base models lead in economy among AWD options, the turbos in power and performance.
Here is an interesting response to the B9. I have a friend that drives a Prius. I told her about the B9, she was interested and told her husband. He was amazed and found it hard to believe that there was going to be a sports car hybrid. He could not believe that hybrids with their reputation of efficient but boring would go this direction. They both love the one thay have so performance is not an issue. The next day I gave her a picture I printed. She went crazy. "I want this car! How soon are they going to make it?" Then she took the picture and started showing it to everyone at the sign in area at work telling them "Look at the new Subaru!" Great advertising, too bad the car is not ready yet. (Hear that Patti.)
I like the styling of it alot. Very radical! My wife Susan is pretty picky on car styling. I took a copy of the picture home and showed it to Susan. Get this, her response was: "Oh wow is this the new Inifiniti?" Considering how cutting edge and radical Nissan/Infiniti design has been lately that says much. TWRX
as we all know, Subaru is being criticized as ripping off Alfa's design with their new B9, et al. Anybody remember when the Mazda Miata first debuted? People were screaming that it was nothing more than a rip-off of the original Lotus Elan.
Miata has sold more than half a million copies and will go down in history as the best selling sports car of all time.
Current hybrid owners do not really create a big enough buyer pool to entice Subaru to build it. The B9 costs more and roadsters have limited appeal so really it would be a small subset of those buyers.
It could appeal to Miata and MR2 owners, far more numerous. 134 electric HP plus 138 engine HP = big smiles. My Miata has just 116hp.
Love the B9 and am warming to the grill treatment. Still a little busy.....the lower intakes clutter it up a bit and the headlights need to be tweaked. Saw a piece on Studebaker on one of the car shows......there ARE some similarities in the front ends (better Studebaker than Edsel, though, right?!) R2 in sport form (hoodscoop, bigger wheels&tires) looks ok but front end is WAY too busy. The R1e front end looks much better and should be adopted on the R2. I agree, the R1e would make a hot little rally car.
I like the B9's grill and overall frontend MUCH more than the B11S.
The hybrid engine should be an option of course. Why handicap your only roadster with such a thing? There will be *many* who just want a normal piston engine, and a high output one at that.
if it came from CNG, hydrogen, or whatever I wouldn't care. electric engines do not offer a competitive output / weight tradeoff once the requisite batteries are included. I couldn't be bothered about the hybrid aspect; I don't buy cars for fuel efficiency and am quite content anywhere at or above 20 MPG.
But seriously, fresh out of college I wanted power more than torque. So a small, revvy engine with short gearing and good efficiency was the ticket.
Now I'm less patient. I want to get up that steep hill without down shifting. Gimme torque. To tow, to haul, to pass, no excuses.
I told my wife our next vehicle will be "no excuses", I want it all. I'm hoping the base model 7 seater is priced competitively with the Pilot, if so we may spring for one.
First off, these are things I think Andreas Zapatinas will "do," and not necessarily what I "want." There is a difference...
All models will receive a version the new Subie "face," of some sort.
Legacy/Outback These models I think will change the least. I think just about everyone thinks these are the most successful looking production Subies, and I'm sure Mr. Z and FHI management won't want to do anything to upset the applecart. Having said that, they WILL change.
These models will be positioned more towards cars like the Acura TSX, BMW 3-Series, and Audi A4. All these cars in this market segment are known for tasteful, if not elegant styling. I'm sure the Legacy/Outback will continue along that path. I don't expect the overall size or proportions to change much, although they may get a "tad" larger, but not much.
Impreza Of all the world-market Subarus, this line has been the most criticized for its looks. I expect big changes here. I think what will happen is that they will evolve into a more European-like hatchback, much like the VW Golf, et al. I expect to see a 2-door and 4-door hatch; and that the current sport wagon and sedan will disappear. I would not be surprised if it takes on styling cues from the R1e concept, but scaled up to VW Golf size.
Forester If the Impreza becomes a Golf-like hatchback, I expect the Forester to grow a bit, so that there is little overlap between the two models. I think it will probably fall mid-way in size between the current Forester and Outback wagons.
7-passenger Crossover Probably Volvo XC90-like, but perhaps(?) a bit more off-road worthy.
B9 I think something like this will be produced.
Larger sedan I think a larger sedan will evolve off the crossover platform; probably an Acura TL/BMW 5-Series type of car.
Baja If it survives (and I think it will), will also be built off the larger crossover platform.
2 door hatchbacks have a real image problem in this country. If Subaru is looking to move upscale, they'll have to stick to sedans and to calling their wagons crossovers or some such trendy name.
I think they are a bad word. I like their practical nature especially if the styling is right. Remember that the WRX wagon is a 5 door hatch in some markets. The RSX is a coupe. Although for reliability reasons I'd never own a Focus I like its choices. Remember when a small car could be had anyway? Focus is the only one today: 4 dr sedan, 5 dr wagon, 5dr hatch, and 3 door hatch. TWRX
I haven't priced a new V6 GTI (or new R32), but I know they must be well over $20K, and are very desirable. Besides, what was true 5 years a go doesn't necessarily hold true any more.
Stealing a recent quote from varmint (on another thread) about urban legends: If you repeat a story (or rumor) often enough, it takes on a life of its own, and in the minds of many -- becomes true (or so they believe). I feel that way about "you can't sell hatchbacks here in America."
Well the Saab 9-3 hatch was awkward looking at best, plus it was plagued with problems; not so for the VW Golf.
The Impreza is the entry-level Subaru, so the "premium" label is less important than say on the Legacy. Also note that the (premium) Saab 9-2 is using the Impreza wagon, not the sedan. In many markets overseas, the Impreza sport wagon is marketed as a 5-door hatchback, not a wagon.
VW here has somewhat of a premium image here. It's not of BMW stature, but many think of VW as being above Subaru in terms of image, and the Golf hatchbacks sells very well here.
In addition, hatchbacks appeal to a younger crowd. So if Subaru is worried that the Legacy, by going upscale, is going to lose the younger audience, an Impreza hatchback will likely counter that fear.
Yeah, but Saab didn't change the powertrain at all...it's the same turbo engines they've always had. In fact, didn't the new ones get a little LESS power than before? I'm pretty sure they did.
So dropping the hatch, then making a sedan with less power (prolly at a higher price) created record sales.
See what I mean?
Even Subaru charges $500 less for the wagon. Usually they cost about a grand more.
I guess I could see a boxier 5 door replacing the wagon, but the sedan should stay. Add a coupe or roadster, if anything, not a 3 door hatch.
Audi, BMW, Mercedes all have entry-level hatchback models. Saab 9-3 hatch failed for a variety of reasons, and I don't think the "hatch" was one of them. If the engineers can make a great Subie hatchback, then it falls onto the Subie marketing experts to earn their salaries.
How is the Benz coupe doing? I'm asking because I have no idea.
I'm sure you know the Bimmer failed. Though the Mini is a success...
Audi A3 is interesting, but it would overlap too much with the Golf. Heck, the fact that VW/Audi doesn't bring its premium hatchback here tells you how they feel.
The Cooper is a notable exception, but generally a sedan will sell better here than a hatchback on the same platform, so if you have to choose one, sell the sedan here.
For Europe, I'd say the opposite. So globally, you may have a point.
The reason it's a success is that it's in a different market segment than the Impreza. It's more Legacy-like, or BMW 3 Series-like. It doesn't appeal to the younger WRX-like audience.
As I said all the major European automakers (premium and mainstream) have small hatchbacks in their portfolio.
VW is doing well with the Golf here in the USA is proof enough for me that the hatch formula can work if done right; and VW has done it right. And I think a Subaru vs. VW, rather than BMW, etc., is probably more accurate. Yeah, I know I brought those brands up here, but I still think VW is a more relevant comparison.
I think the reason it's not here is that VW feels it will steal sales away from the Golf.
I don't know, but I expect to see a dramatic visual change in the next Impreza. I also keep hearing the words "European influence" too; and a hatch fits that description nicely—especially in that class of vehicle. I guess we'll see in a few years...
Toyota has just reintroduced a hatchback with the Echo here in Canada, after a saying the hatchback was dead just a couple of years ago, and it is targeted at younger buyers.
Same with Honda they killed the Civic hatchback, and then just last year Brought the Civic SIR in hatchback form,Mazda killed the 323 Hatchback and then within a year they were back with the Protege 5.
Perceptions have changed and there will always be a market for a hatchback.
Perceptions DO change. What was once true, may no longer be the case. Hatchbacks have long been an accepted body type in European automotive design, and for good reasons. I think North America is re-discovering those reasons, and it's about time, IMO.
I don't think a particular body style, like a hatchback, has to be considered a liability in terms of image. I truly believe it's more matter of how the vehicle is designed, contented, and priced. As has been noted, perceptions do change with time, as well as with different customers. Younger customers will think differently than do older customers as to what a hatchback symbolizes. These things change.
Also, (market) timing has a great deal to do with it. For example, 10 years ago who would have dreamed that premium brands like Cadillac, BMW, Mercedes and Volvo would be selling trucks in their showrooms? TRUCKS, of all things! So if "premium" trucks can be sold, so can premium hatchbacks.
It's funny, if VW were to add a small rear quarter window to the thick "C" pillar on the Golf, it would be a station wagon, not unlike the Impreza wagon. It's all just marketing and playing with words. Toyota calls their AWD system in the Rav4 and Highlander "4WD," not AWD. A janitor is a sanitation engineer... It's just marketing and nothing else.
Suprisingly the Golf is available as a traditonal wagon in Europe. I recall being suprised by that when looking at their UK site a few months ago. The new Golf also is offered as one.
Although Toyota wants you to think that the Matrix is a whole new breed of car we all know it is a hatchback. I assume sales of it and the Pontiac one (hey maybe it neutralizes that insipid Aztec) are brisk because they seem to be everywhere. Wonder how the Scion twins are doing in Kali-for-nya. Can't believe VSC/traction control/ABS on a sub 15k car. OK styling is wierd on xb but maybe it looks better in person ala Element. (Yes I'm a pro Element person). If that thing goes over well I wonder what kind of hit the Element will take. It's 1k more base and way behind on content. Funny for Toyota to underprice Honda.
Yes, you're right; I just went to VW's German site, and it was there. Interestingly the rear looks almost identical to the Bora (our Jetta) Varient; in fact, I'm wondering if they're not the same vehicle just contented a bit differently? From the "A" pillar to the rear bumper they appear to be the same car. The front clip is specific to the Golf, however.
that if Honda would make the Element about 150% of its current size, add a row of seats and put a huge V6 or V8 (maybe from this new trucklike crossover) and add AWD (or preferably 4wd) she would take one. I agree, it's a cool car, but that's just it, it's just a really tall civic, IMHO.
Comments
You should try living here where you do not know what gas is going to cost on any given day, it is usually at its highest on Fridays and then slowly drops by about 10 cents a litre over the course of a week. Then we start all over again.
Incidently all the gas company's prices are the same no variation,(but then our Federal Government says there is no price fixing, what would you call this, if there is no price competition)
This goes on week in and week out all year long, it is enough to drive a teetotaler like me to drink:-)
Cheers Pat.
Bob
http://www.automobilemag.com/auto_shows/2003tms/
Bob
Ed
Just tweak the grille a little for production, and put the engine in a different Sube.
Hmmm, possible replacement for the OB and 318i in a few years? :-)
-Dennis
Mark
Bob
The love it - hate it territory is familiar ground for Subaru. It seems that their styling and mechanicals have always had a polarizing effect. At least they make you feel some emotion, good or bad. There seems to be so many vehicles out there these days that stimulate only boredom and, yawn, apathy. It's great to see Subaru pushing the envelope a bit. Even if their concept cars don't generate a completely positive reaction, it's still a reaction, and their name gets a little more into the collective consciousness. That can only be a good thing, and as more and more seemingly odd features make it to production cars, these concept cars will appear more palatable and 'normal'.
Just my 3.52 cents (Can.)
Owen
Bob: cool, they call is "sexy" and wrote:
unanimously lauded by showgoers; it was rare to see the car without a throng of admirers around it
Major score. Even the B11S didn't get a reaction that positive.
Tweak the headlights, plus the too-Z4 taillights. But keep the proportions and the basic look.
AN said the R2 will replace the Pleo, but it 154 pounds lighter and close to the top in fuel economy for the class. That confirms Subaru has been putting lots of effort into weight savings and fuel efficiency.
I like this trend - let the base models lead in economy among AWD options, the turbos in power and performance.
-juice
I like the styling of it alot. Very radical! My wife Susan is pretty picky on car styling. I took a copy of the picture home and showed it to Susan. Get this, her response was: "Oh wow is this the new Inifiniti?" Considering how cutting edge and radical Nissan/Infiniti design has been lately that says much.
TWRX
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=31&article- _id=7321
Bob
Subaru should be so lucky...
Bob
Current hybrid owners do not really create a big enough buyer pool to entice Subaru to build it. The B9 costs more and roadsters have limited appeal so really it would be a small subset of those buyers.
It could appeal to Miata and MR2 owners, far more numerous. 134 electric HP plus 138 engine HP = big smiles. My Miata has just 116hp.
-juice
Add 2.0L turbo
Add AWD
Sell it for 25K or so...
A cheap alternative to the TT!
Still a little busy.....the lower intakes clutter it up a bit and the headlights need to be tweaked. Saw a piece on Studebaker on one of the car shows......there ARE some similarities in the front ends (better Studebaker than Edsel, though, right?!) R2 in sport form (hoodscoop, bigger wheels&tires) looks ok but front end is WAY too busy. The R1e front end looks much better and should be adopted on the R2. I agree, the R1e would make a hot little rally car.
The hybrid engine should be an option of course. Why handicap your only roadster with such a thing? There will be *many* who just want a normal piston engine, and a high output one at that.
-Colin
I like the "in-your-face" B11S' style, and knew all along they'd tone it down for production. So basically it became the B9 front-end. I like both.
If the hybrid is cost-competitive with similar performers, I'd definitely consider one. Who else to be an early adopter but us enthusiasts?
Of course I don't work for an oil company...LOL!
-juice
if it came from CNG, hydrogen, or whatever I wouldn't care. electric engines do not offer a competitive output / weight tradeoff once the requisite batteries are included. I couldn't be bothered about the hybrid aspect; I don't buy cars for fuel efficiency and am quite content anywhere at or above 20 MPG.
-Colin
But seriously, fresh out of college I wanted power more than torque. So a small, revvy engine with short gearing and good efficiency was the ticket.
Now I'm less patient. I want to get up that steep hill without down shifting. Gimme torque. To tow, to haul, to pass, no excuses.
I told my wife our next vehicle will be "no excuses", I want it all. I'm hoping the base model 7 seater is priced competitively with the Pilot, if so we may spring for one.
-juice
-juice
Ken
All models will receive a version the new Subie "face," of some sort.
Legacy/Outback
These models I think will change the least. I think just about everyone thinks these are the most successful looking production Subies, and I'm sure Mr. Z and FHI management won't want to do anything to upset the applecart. Having said that, they WILL change.
These models will be positioned more towards cars like the Acura TSX, BMW 3-Series, and Audi A4. All these cars in this market segment are known for tasteful, if not elegant styling. I'm sure the Legacy/Outback will continue along that path. I don't expect the overall size or proportions to change much, although they may get a "tad" larger, but not much.
Impreza
Of all the world-market Subarus, this line has been the most criticized for its looks. I expect big changes here. I think what will happen is that they will evolve into a more European-like hatchback, much like the VW Golf, et al. I expect to see a 2-door and 4-door hatch; and that the current sport wagon and sedan will disappear. I would not be surprised if it takes on styling cues from the R1e concept, but scaled up to VW Golf size.
Forester
If the Impreza becomes a Golf-like hatchback, I expect the Forester to grow a bit, so that there is little overlap between the two models. I think it will probably fall mid-way in size between the current Forester and Outback wagons.
7-passenger Crossover
Probably Volvo XC90-like, but perhaps(?) a bit more off-road worthy.
B9
I think something like this will be produced.
Larger sedan
I think a larger sedan will evolve off the crossover platform; probably an Acura TL/BMW 5-Series type of car.
Baja
If it survives (and I think it will), will also be built off the larger crossover platform.
Bob
My crystal ball:
2004: new Legacy debuts in the spring. New 7 seater debuts in the fall.
2005: Forester face-lift. Large sedan based on the 7 seater arrives? Baja moves to the new platform.
2006: New Impreza, with new face. B9 Scrambler roadster, if it flies, joins the lineup.
2007: New Forester, this time based on the Legacy (since the 7 seater is on a bigger platform).
-juice
-Colin
-juice
I think the idea of "hatchbacks don't sell in America" is disappearing fast.
Bob
TWRX
Same with the Focus, even the SVT model can't demand over $20k.
The WRX is selling well at $22k and up, $30k and up for the STi. Different price league entirely.
Don't get me wrong, I'll pick a wagon first, then a 5 door hatch, then a 3 door hatch, then whatever else is left.
-juice
I haven't priced a new V6 GTI (or new R32), but I know they must be well over $20K, and are very desirable. Besides, what was true 5 years a go doesn't necessarily hold true any more.
Stealing a recent quote from varmint (on another thread) about urban legends: If you repeat a story (or rumor) often enough, it takes on a life of its own, and in the minds of many -- becomes true (or so they believe). I feel that way about "you can't sell hatchbacks here in America."
Bob
Look at Saab. They went to conventional sedans and this model year they will achieve record sales.
Subaru going in the opposite direction is very, very risky, and that's why I think they'll avoid it.
-juice
The Impreza is the entry-level Subaru, so the "premium" label is less important than say on the Legacy. Also note that the (premium) Saab 9-2 is using the Impreza wagon, not the sedan. In many markets overseas, the Impreza sport wagon is marketed as a 5-door hatchback, not a wagon.
VW here has somewhat of a premium image here. It's not of BMW stature, but many think of VW as being above Subaru in terms of image, and the Golf hatchbacks sells very well here.
In addition, hatchbacks appeal to a younger crowd. So if Subaru is worried that the Legacy, by going upscale, is going to lose the younger audience, an Impreza hatchback will likely counter that fear.
Bob
So dropping the hatch, then making a sedan with less power (prolly at a higher price) created record sales.
See what I mean?
Even Subaru charges $500 less for the wagon. Usually they cost about a grand more.
I guess I could see a boxier 5 door replacing the wagon, but the sedan should stay. Add a coupe or roadster, if anything, not a 3 door hatch.
-juice
Bob
Bob
But the sedan is a smashing success. With less power. Record sales year, best model year EVER.
What changed? The body style. That's it.
I think if any two people on opposite sides of the fence can have a civil discussion, we can, so why stop? ;-)
-juice
I'm sure you know the Bimmer failed. Though the Mini is a success...
Audi A3 is interesting, but it would overlap too much with the Golf. Heck, the fact that VW/Audi doesn't bring its premium hatchback here tells you how they feel.
The Cooper is a notable exception, but generally a sedan will sell better here than a hatchback on the same platform, so if you have to choose one, sell the sedan here.
For Europe, I'd say the opposite. So globally, you may have a point.
-juice
As I said all the major European automakers (premium and mainstream) have small hatchbacks in their portfolio.
Bob
Bob
I don't know, but I expect to see a dramatic visual change in the next Impreza. I also keep hearing the words "European influence" too; and a hatch fits that description nicely—especially in that class of vehicle. I guess we'll see in a few years...
Bob
Same with Honda they killed the Civic hatchback, and then just last year Brought the Civic SIR in hatchback form,Mazda killed the 323 Hatchback and then within a year they were back with the Protege 5.
Perceptions have changed and there will always be a market for a hatchback.
Cheers Pat.
Bob
I don't think a particular body style, like a hatchback, has to be considered a liability in terms of image. I truly believe it's more matter of how the vehicle is designed, contented, and priced. As has been noted, perceptions do change with time, as well as with different customers. Younger customers will think differently than do older customers as to what a hatchback symbolizes. These things change.
Also, (market) timing has a great deal to do with it. For example, 10 years ago who would have dreamed that premium brands like Cadillac, BMW, Mercedes and Volvo would be selling trucks in their showrooms? TRUCKS, of all things! So if "premium" trucks can be sold, so can premium hatchbacks.
It's funny, if VW were to add a small rear quarter window to the thick "C" pillar on the Golf, it would be a station wagon, not unlike the Impreza wagon. It's all just marketing and playing with words. Toyota calls their AWD system in the Rav4 and Highlander "4WD," not AWD. A janitor is a sanitation engineer... It's just marketing and nothing else.
Bob
TWRX
Bob
Bob