"The question of the day seems to be whether Subaru products - no stranger to sales depressions - can pull the Scandinavian brand up to the General's standards. Unfortunately, June's initial 9-2X sales month, in which Saab sold less than 50 units of the WRX offshoot, doesn't give much indication which way things will go. "
Bob - weren't you the one commenting on how low the starting price was for a Camry? LOL
Meaning???
Look, I don't want to pay any more for a Subaru than you do. I can see why you're upset, as this Halifax is a vehicle on your short list of next vehicles. That's not necessarily so for me. Frankly I don't see myself buying anything larger than an Outback as a future family vehicle. So the cost issue is not as pressing for me as it may be for you.
This decision to move upmarket was made in Japan, not Cherry Hill. All we can do is hope for the best.
Way too soon to measure the 9-2x' success. I doubt dealers had a supply yet. And their sales goal is very modest.
Nice to have Ed around to make a nice list! ;-)
Split 3rd seat is a biggie, sort of, but Honda will fix that perhaps by the time the Halifax goes on sale.
Look at the Ody, it'll get the split 3rd row and a moonroof option too. I would not bet against the Pilot addressing at least some of those in the next 18 months.
Bob - you were pointing out how Camry prices are a good $5 grand below the Legacy's for starters. If Subaru keeps moving upscale, like you, people will suffer from sticker shock, and consider cheaper alternatives like the Pilot. Not accounting for equipment levels, but looking strictly at prices and what they can afford.
I keep going back to something Lucien said years ago, which I found hilarious, which was that the Passat he sampled was "too nice".
Is the new Legacy "too nice"? If they've decided it'll keep creeping upscale, and they keep adding features and let prices go up, some folks (me) will be stuck considering only their compacts.
Bob - you were pointing out how Camry prices are a good $5 grand below the Legacy's for starters.
I only made that reference because the last time I looked at a Camry they seemed rather expensive. This was several years ago, so maybe things have changed. I wasn't specifically cross-comparing the prices with the Legacy.
I just found it funny that in one topic you mentioned how low a competitor was priced, and then in another you defend the increasing prices for Subies.
Ironically I argued on the other side of both issues. ;-)
I keep going back to something Lucien said years ago, which I found hilarious, which was that the Passat he sampled was "too nice".
Is the new Legacy "too nice"?
For me it's borderline "too nice." I know it's purely psychological but I'd feel much more comfortable getting a Forester sloppy dirty inside and out than any of the new Legacies, even the Outback.
Well there are some things you have a chance at changing. We've had some pretty good success here at Edmunds on "tweaking" US-spec models as you well know. I don't think this is one of those issues. This goes to the core of the company. It's an issue that effects Subaru worldwide. I don't think anyone here has a hint of a chance of reversing this decision.
A lot of this is due to perception, and how quickly Subaru can change perceptions.
When the H-6s first debuted there was a lot of criticism here—and I was one of the major critics—of how expensive the LL Bean and VDC were. We all felt that there wasn't enough "value" for what you were paying, and I still feel that way about those older H-6 models. Today the same models are more expensive still, yet I don't hear nearly the amount of criticism about the new H-6s being too expensive. Why? Because there is far more value (real or perceived) in these new model than in the old models.
The same could hold true for the Halifax. Who knows, it could be a knockout vehicle. If that's the case, it will open Subaru to a whole new and wealthier customer.
Don't forget, Subaru is the last to this upscale SUV market. They know this—or I hope they do... So I'm expecting something that's not "business as usual."
I agree that perception is the major issue. It'll take years to get people used to the idea of paying Volvo-level prices, never mind BMW.
And that's unfair, it's just the way it is.
Perhaps Subaru shot themselves in the foot a long time ago with their "Inexpensive and built to stay that way" campaign, people still remember that vividly 3 decades later.
I guess I can summarize my feelings by saying that I want a car that is still "Inexpensive and built to stay that way". I just hope they don't abandon this core customer.
"Inexpensive and built to stay that way", most people here agree. I feel FHI to go luxo on us with Saab is a good move. I would not buy any of the current Saabs except the 9-2x. If I wanted a luxo name plate, I'd rather buy a Subaru based Saab than a Volvo, Acura or a Lexus. Yes, the current Subarus are almost too nice, but I feel they are just keeping pace with Toyota and Honda.
Perception is key, the common folk have yet to be turned on to Subaru let alone a pricey Subie. At least, as of now the 05 Outback 3.0R VDC costs as much as a fully loaded Saab 9-2x 4EAT.
i don't know what the increase WILL be, but I'm just stating what I think it SHOULD be. As we discussed, the Pilot is a $4K jump over an Accord. In exchange, you get a totally different suspension, a much larger vehicle, 7-passenger seating, and AWD. The Halifax over the Outback will give you 7-passenger seating and slightly larger vehicle (again, not as big of a jump in this area since the outback is already a wagon [and a big one at that]). So, that's why I figure $1500 should be about right. If you consider the AWD to be worth about $2K and the wagon aspect to be worth about $500 - and the outback already has both of those - that leaves $1500. I'd have a hard time swallowing any more of a price jump than that. But maybe that's just my opinion.
By the way, overall, I totally agree with juice. it can't be $33K and expect to compete with the Highlander and Pilot.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
One thing neither of us know at this point is what kind of new technology with the Halifax offer?
At this point we're just guessing, but I'm willing to bet we will see some new stuff never before seen on a Subaru. I bet we see NAV and satellite radio, maybe not on base models, but on the $40K versions for sure. In fact, I bet it will compete feature-for-feature with comparably priced MDXs, XC90s, et al, plus offer some stuff those vehicles don't offer.
Just as the Legacy/Outback line is a clear cut above the Impreza, my gut feeling is this new Halifax will be a clear cut above the Legacy/Outback.
That's not how Honda or Toyota have positioned the Accord/Pilot or Camry/Highlander. I don't see their SUVs as being "better" than their cars, just "different" to serve a different audience. You can include their minivans in that mix too. They all share about equal status within their respective brands.
I don't think Subaru is going to do that. I definitely think this Halifax will be positioned above the Legacy/Outback. Remember this Halifax is really the first large car to come off this platform. There will be a sedan to follow at some point, and perhaps other models too. If the Legacy/Outback can be compared to a BMW 3-Series, this new Halifax is the first of Subaru's 5-Series-like vehicles.
obviously with a NAV unit. It sounds like this NAV is integrated with the radio/CD. If that's the case, it may (?) not be as expensive as a stand-alone unit. From the Subie UK site, features page:
AUDIO VISUAL/NAVIGATION SATELLITE NAVIGATION SYSTEM WITH SINGLE CD PLAYER AND RDS RADIO, FOUR SPEAKERS AND WINDOW AERIAL
Even though it's offered, I bet Honda sells 100 EX models to every LX model sold. I think I've only seen 2 – 3 Pilot LXs since they've been introduced.
I think I can stretch her to about $30k, but even that'll be a fight, and it'll be a while for us to save up for that, with Subaru Bucks helping us out.
I know these are not the equal of what the Halifax is expected to be, but we can get several 7 seat vans for $24k, and beyond $30k is a huge leap to justify.
Not our style, we've actually paid cash for the last couple of cars we bought.
Of course now that we bought the beach condo we might require a loan for the next one, but I won't lease because we keep our cars 7+ years.
I do like the van/roadster combo, but as of now that would put me out of a Subaru completely.
Right now I'm not worried, the Forester is running very well, even at 6 years old. The Miata helps me keep the miles down, too. I should easily get a couple more years out of it.
well, you're right, but considering the offerings available in the new car market today, the outback is pretty big when you only have Mazda3s, Focuses, IS300s, etc. to compare to. Come to think of it, is there a true wagon being currently offered that is full-size?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Come to think of it, is there a true wagon being currently offered that is full-size? Biggest wagons that come to my mind are the Caddy and new Chrysler 300. New Mazda 6 is probably same size as the Legacy isn't it? None of those make me think FULL size in the traditional sense aka my neighbours 90's Caprice.
the magnum looks large, but that sloping roofline really kills the overall storage capacity. I haven't looked at the numbers, but I'd be surprised if the Legacy didn't offer at least as much or even more than the magnum.
the size thing is all relative. The Grand Marquis is a big car, but still pales in comparison to early 70s caddies.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
unless you are referring to the SRX. But that ain't a wagon. If it were considered such, then the same would have to be said about every crossover.
Well the original post was drawing comparisons to the Outback so I do think it's kosher, and the Outback is a he!! of a lot more crossover than the Caddy. I am of the opinion that this whole "Crossover" nomenclature is only there to make people feel better about not buying an SUV. In my brain, people can say cross-over or designate vehicles as trucks, but I find it irrelevant. To me, there's this whole SUV'ish bunch which come from car as opposed to truck underpinnings. Some try to look truck-SUVish like Lexus 330 or Highlander (which I wouldn't call wagons), whereas others go to the wagon styling.
Can't believe I forgot the Pacifica - best answer yet. Is it a mini-van trying to be a wagon or a wagon trying to be a minivan? I do like the concept.
Happens so rarely that I wanted it entered in the official record. ;-)
From the Edmunds road test review:
To clear things up, we're going to tell you what the SRX is — it's a station wagon. Admittedly (by modern standards) it is a big station wagon. And it does come in all-wheel-drive flavors with over 8 inches of ground clearance, but like Chrysler's Pacifica and Volvo's XC90, and even Infiniti's sleek FX35/45, this is simply a Cadillac station wagon — marketing hype and image spinmeisters be damned
well, the line has to be drawn somewhere, however blurry. I'm not sure where that line is, but when you go well past that 2 ton mark and approach 6 feet high, I think that's a bit too much vehicle to call a station wagon. But, hey, we call them opinions for a reason, right?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
saw the legacy TV commercial on animal planet. similar to OB's. No details given in the commercial like turbo, 250hp etc. But looks OK i am NOT very impressed with the ad
Sub is targetting only CNN, Headline news, Animal PLanet & MSNBC.
Has anyone seen the Sub Brand commercial ? the one that includes all the models ?
Comments
http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=7299
"Sporting character"
Seating configuration (if rear seat isn't a solid bench)
Better winter vehicle (no heated seats/mirrors in Pilot w/o leather, even then no heated front/rear wipers)
Better 3-other-seasons vehicle (if mondo moonroof a la Forester PPs available; again an opportunity to license Wagonaire/Envoy XUV technology from GM)
Better driver seating position (Pilot dead pedal virtually flat on the floor, useless)
Ergonomics generally (I've grabbed the wiper stalk when I meant to grab the gearshift lever several times now)
Ed (who has now logged enough Pilot seat time to comment with some authority)
Meaning???
Look, I don't want to pay any more for a Subaru than you do. I can see why you're upset, as this Halifax is a vehicle on your short list of next vehicles. That's not necessarily so for me. Frankly I don't see myself buying anything larger than an Outback as a future family vehicle. So the cost issue is not as pressing for me as it may be for you.
This decision to move upmarket was made in Japan, not Cherry Hill. All we can do is hope for the best.
Bob
Bob
Nice to have Ed around to make a nice list! ;-)
Split 3rd seat is a biggie, sort of, but Honda will fix that perhaps by the time the Halifax goes on sale.
Look at the Ody, it'll get the split 3rd row and a moonroof option too. I would not bet against the Pilot addressing at least some of those in the next 18 months.
Bob - you were pointing out how Camry prices are a good $5 grand below the Legacy's for starters. If Subaru keeps moving upscale, like you, people will suffer from sticker shock, and consider cheaper alternatives like the Pilot. Not accounting for equipment levels, but looking strictly at prices and what they can afford.
I keep going back to something Lucien said years ago, which I found hilarious, which was that the Passat he sampled was "too nice".
Is the new Legacy "too nice"? If they've decided it'll keep creeping upscale, and they keep adding features and let prices go up, some folks (me) will be stuck considering only their compacts.
-juice
The Halifax should be everything the Pilot is today plus more fun at the same price.
-juice
I only made that reference because the last time I looked at a Camry they seemed rather expensive. This was several years ago, so maybe things have changed. I wasn't specifically cross-comparing the prices with the Legacy.
Bob
I just found it funny that in one topic you mentioned how low a competitor was priced, and then in another you defend the increasing prices for Subies.
Ironically I argued on the other side of both issues. ;-)
-juice
Is the new Legacy "too nice"?
For me it's borderline "too nice." I know it's purely psychological but I'd feel much more comfortable getting a Forester sloppy dirty inside and out than any of the new Legacies, even the Outback.
Ed
-juice
Well there are some things you have a chance at changing. We've had some pretty good success here at Edmunds on "tweaking" US-spec models as you well know. I don't think this is one of those issues. This goes to the core of the company. It's an issue that effects Subaru worldwide. I don't think anyone here has a hint of a chance of reversing this decision.
Bob
Perhaps what I should really be asking for is real-world pricing from the get-go, like Scion or Saturn.
I'd rather see the Halifax come out at $30k list rather than $33k list and see $3000 rebates a year later because it's selling slowly.
-juice
When the H-6s first debuted there was a lot of criticism here—and I was one of the major critics—of how expensive the LL Bean and VDC were. We all felt that there wasn't enough "value" for what you were paying, and I still feel that way about those older H-6 models. Today the same models are more expensive still, yet I don't hear nearly the amount of criticism about the new H-6s being too expensive. Why? Because there is far more value (real or perceived) in these new model than in the old models.
The same could hold true for the Halifax. Who knows, it could be a knockout vehicle. If that's the case, it will open Subaru to a whole new and wealthier customer.
Don't forget, Subaru is the last to this upscale SUV market. They know this—or I hope they do... So I'm expecting something that's not "business as usual."
Bob
And that's unfair, it's just the way it is.
Perhaps Subaru shot themselves in the foot a long time ago with their "Inexpensive and built to stay that way" campaign, people still remember that vividly 3 decades later.
I guess I can summarize my feelings by saying that I want a car that is still "Inexpensive and built to stay that way". I just hope they don't abandon this core customer.
-juice
Yes, the current Subarus are almost too nice, but I feel they are just keeping pace with Toyota and Honda.
--S
It's like deja-vu all over again, VW/Audi style.
Mind you, I'm one of the very few that actually likes the idea of Saab getting upscale Subarus, but just keep Subies affordable for the rest of us!
-juice
If saab loyalists don;t want to buy saabarus, then subie loyalists can get saabaru for great prices !!!
But 9-2x Aero for 30k same price as legacy GT ltd ? I think it will sell for 26-27k soon.
--Sal
http://www.mellor.net/mellor/enews.nsf/edition/2254E64725F53598CA- 256ED0002E4CAE/$file/GoAuto_enews246.pdf
Bob
By the way, overall, I totally agree with juice. it can't be $33K and expect to compete with the Highlander and Pilot.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
At this point we're just guessing, but I'm willing to bet we will see some new stuff never before seen on a Subaru. I bet we see NAV and satellite radio, maybe not on base models, but on the $40K versions for sure. In fact, I bet it will compete feature-for-feature with comparably priced MDXs, XC90s, et al, plus offer some stuff those vehicles don't offer.
Just as the Legacy/Outback line is a clear cut above the Impreza, my gut feeling is this new Halifax will be a clear cut above the Legacy/Outback.
That's not how Honda or Toyota have positioned the Accord/Pilot or Camry/Highlander. I don't see their SUVs as being "better" than their cars, just "different" to serve a different audience. You can include their minivans in that mix too. They all share about equal status within their respective brands.
I don't think Subaru is going to do that. I definitely think this Halifax will be positioned above the Legacy/Outback. Remember this Halifax is really the first large car to come off this platform. There will be a sedan to follow at some point, and perhaps other models too. If the Legacy/Outback can be compared to a BMW 3-Series, this new Halifax is the first of Subaru's 5-Series-like vehicles.
Bob
not as big of a jump in this area since the outback is already a wagon [and a big one at that]
<<<<<
i might consider it a medium size wagon. those old pig iron highway crusier wagons were big, the legacy is not big.
if the Legacy/Outback can be compared to a BMW 3-Series, this new Halifax is the first of Subaru's 5-Series-like vehicles.
<<<<<
bob i think you nailed the size thing perfectly.
http://www.subaru.co.uk/IMGGB/WWW/Subaru_co_uk.nsf/NULL/FA5CD6047- - - - - 97C110980256E91002E4881?Opendocument
obviously with a NAV unit. It sounds like this NAV is integrated with the radio/CD. If that's the case, it may (?) not be as expensive as a stand-alone unit. From the Subie UK site, features page:
AUDIO VISUAL/NAVIGATION
SATELLITE NAVIGATION SYSTEM WITH SINGLE CD PLAYER AND RDS RADIO, FOUR SPEAKERS AND WINDOW AERIAL
Bob
Halifax should compete with the Pilot, Saab 9-?x could compete with the MDX.
-juice
Bob
Meanwhile I'll earn some Subaru Bucks.
-juice
Bob
I think they exist just so they can advertise "starting under $30k", but I wonder if it'll hurt Subaru not to be able to say the same thing.
-juice
Tell you wife at least let you adjust your car buying price to the average car price of that year.
--Sal
I know these are not the equal of what the Halifax is expected to be, but we can get several 7 seat vans for $24k, and beyond $30k is a huge leap to justify.
-juice
--S
Bob
Of course now that we bought the beach condo we might require a loan for the next one, but I won't lease because we keep our cars 7+ years.
I do like the van/roadster combo, but as of now that would put me out of a Subaru completely.
Right now I'm not worried, the Forester is running very well, even at 6 years old. The Miata helps me keep the miles down, too. I should easily get a couple more years out of it.
-juice
i do think it will be a mistake on subaru's part, though. Like juice said, let the Saab compete on the higher end.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Biggest wagons that come to my mind are the Caddy and new Chrysler 300. New Mazda 6 is probably same size as the Legacy isn't it? None of those make me think FULL size in the traditional sense aka my neighbours 90's Caprice.
the size thing is all relative. The Grand Marquis is a big car, but still pales in comparison to early 70s caddies.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
unless you are referring to the SRX. But that ain't a wagon. If it were considered such, then the same would have to be said about every crossover.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
The Malibu Maxx has great passenger room but poor cargo room, IMO. Same with the Prius. And I can't look at that Malibu's face without cringing.
I like the Saab 9-5 and actually test drove a CPO for kicks, but the high cost of repairs and pretty bad turbo lag would keep me out of one.
SRX is way too expensive. Pacifica is too expensive. Ford Freestyle might fit the big wagon bill, though.
-juice
Well the original post was drawing comparisons to the Outback so I do think it's kosher, and the Outback is a he!! of a lot more crossover than the Caddy.
I am of the opinion that this whole "Crossover" nomenclature is only there to make people feel better about not buying an SUV. In my brain, people can say cross-over or designate vehicles as trucks, but I find it irrelevant. To me, there's this whole SUV'ish bunch which come from car as opposed to truck underpinnings. Some try to look truck-SUVish like Lexus 330 or Highlander (which I wouldn't call wagons), whereas others go to the wagon styling.
Can't believe I forgot the Pacifica - best answer yet. Is it a mini-van trying to be a wagon or a wagon trying to be a minivan? I do like the concept.
From the Edmunds road test review:
To clear things up, we're going to tell you what the SRX is — it's a station wagon. Admittedly (by modern standards) it is a big station wagon. And it does come in all-wheel-drive flavors with over 8 inches of ground clearance, but like Chrysler's Pacifica and Volvo's XC90, and even Infiniti's sleek FX35/45, this is simply a Cadillac station wagon — marketing hype and image spinmeisters be damned
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
-juice
I don't see it that way; more of a station wagon to me, but... whatever!
Sub is targetting only CNN, Headline news, Animal PLanet & MSNBC.
Has anyone seen the Sub Brand commercial ? the one that includes all the models ?