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Comments
Boxsters do not get 30. The EPA rating for the standard 2.7L H6 Boxster is 19 city and 27 hwy. It also is 2850-2950 pounds, a few hundred pounds less than an Impreza at MUCH lighter than an Outback XT.
Other vehicles with similar displacement and weight that do get better miles per gallon typically have a long stroke and narrow bore, which has been a good formula for efficiency for many years. However, that simply isn't practical for a horizontally opposed engine so they are all oversquare -- large bores and short stroke.
Sorry, but that gulf will simply never be overcome. Even having similar technologies on both engines, the longer stroke inline four will always (theoretically, and often in practice) get superior gas mileage.
~Colin
I'd love to get a Legacy wagon to replace my beloved '99 Forester, but this is a deal-killer for me. I wonder why they don't just put the anchors on the back of the seat like most manufacturers do.
Thanks!
I agree that they eat up space, but they're a lot safer. Plus, in my experience, by the time my 2nd kid went to a forward facing seat, my older kid was in a booster and didn't need the anchor. They go to boosters at 40 lbs.
Can the dogs live with one such anchor?
-juice
I hadn't thought about the safety issue with the location of the tether anchor. I just figured that Subaru was too lazy to change the design! Isn't the point of the anchors just to keep the carseat as closely fitted to the vehicle seat as possible? If that's the case, then I wouldn't think it would matter where the anchors are. But I don't know--I should look into it. I hate to pass up an otherwise great car just for that.
In any case, thanks for valuable discussion on the relationship between engine dimensions and fuel economy!
Doug
But riddle me this: why couldn't this be done with boxer engines? If done on the same bore as present engines, width would have to increase, but add more cylinders and narrow the bore and width would not have to increase.
In any case, even if width would increase, I think that would be a good thing, as most subarus are still japan sized not american sized yet.
Eric
as far as decreasing the bore, that is done but at the same time Subaru typically also reduces the stroke for the sake of the crankshaft-- there are 1.6L, or maybe even 1.5L, versions of the EJ series H4 in Japan.
~Colin
I think we'll see if it can/can't be done once subaru comes out with the diesel boxer. It'll be undersquare and run compression ratios somewhere between 18 to 21:1. I'd say the crankshaft on that engine'll be awfully beefy!
Eric
maybe not, I am sure it will be a turbo diesel and those do not usually come with compression ratios this high.
John
~Colin
John
But the Legacy actually does have a bit of room. You could probably lengthen the stroke by 1/4 to 1/2" or so and still have the same clearance the Forester has now.
The frame rails are farther apart, basically.
-juice
John
• Subaru is working a 6EAT for the Tribeca.
http://www.whatcar.com/news-article.aspx?NA=221468
Bob
John
I'm suprised they don't just buy a 6EAT from JATCO. Or a CVT like they use in the Maxima.
Ken
The 6EAT is also news. I had been hoping and asking for one, but this is the first indication that one may actually be in the works.
It's funny, when juice and I were invited to the Tribeca debut at the Detroit auto show, I had mentioned to the Tribeca brand manager that I would like to see a 6-speed automatic for this vehicle, as well as for the Outback and Legacy. He seemed a bit surprised, and asked why, and why not a CVT instead? I told him that 6 gears make better use of the available power, as in more gears are better than fewer gears. I also thought a CVT could also work.
To be honest I'm a bit surprised by the 6EAT news, as I thought they might go the CVT route. My feeling was based on the brand manager's response, and because we are now seeing more and more CVTs being hooked up to really powerful engines. Finally they're supposed to be more efficient than traditional automatics, in terms of power and fuel mileage.
Bob
-juice
No wonder it is a slow-seller. The Subaru brand-manager in charge of the 4EAT WRX, should be put on early retirement.
The WRX is Subaru's entry level sports model and needs to address a certain need in Subaru's portfolio from a cost/performance standpoint. Adding a 5EAT would not only potentially move it beyond it's price/performance sweet spot, but also blurs the distinction with the Legacy GT.
Subaru has been quite consistent with their product positioning around the world and the WRX is not really higher in "sportiness" than the Legacy. It's only in the US market that they introduced the WRX prior to a turbo GT and therefore it's only recently that they've brought the relative positioning in-line with other markets.
Also, keep in mind that the WRX has a unique distinction of manual trannies outselling automatics.
What needs to happen is Subaru speed up their overall implementation of transmission technologies and features across the board. Vehicles in the Legacy class are already moving up and beyond 6-speed automatics. Vehicles in the Impreza class are getting 5-speed autos.
Ken
http://news.windingroad.com/?p=850#more-850
So waddyathink? Toyota? Impreza? Something else?
Bob
The Legacy GT is more a gentrified vehicle catering to a relatively older clientele. There is a lack of a certain rawness to it, from a pure performance standpoint. Even the Spec B does not measure up to the STi in pure performance, nor in power, nor in the performance hardware like front/rear/center diffs etc.
By diluting the raw performance image of the WRX by putting higher performance hardware in the gentrified Legacy GT (which simply lacks the halo of the original WRX) while denying it to the WRX, Subaru is not doing itself any favor, IMHO. The Legacy does not form the basis for Subaru's WRC efforts - the Impreza does.
From my perspective, either introduce a credible EAT WRX that merits the WRX tag, with a 5EAT and sportshift, or drop the EAT version entirely from the line-up and have a manual only version....the current 4EAT is brushing very close to the 30K mark. By introducing a high-performance WRX 5EAT with gearing designed for high-perf, it might even change the manual/auto equation in the EAT's favor, at least in the US. Is it any surprise that the current 4EAT WRX does not sell well ?
Currently, there is a 7-8K difference in price between the 4EAT 2.5i Impreza and the 4EAT WRX. Is Subaru providing anything groundbreaking for that difference, worthy of hanging the WRX tag onto ? Methinks not !
Provide the WRX with basically sound hardware. Excellent brakes, high performance engine, high-perf geared transmission (whether manual or EAT), grippy tires, light alloys, well bolstered seats, quick communicative steering and retain it at a 25K pricepoint. In other words, go back to the formula of the original WRX with some improvements.
“The Subaru line-up is well positioned in the current marketplace,” said Mr. Colbeck. “What makes Subaru such a compelling choice is its combination of strong fuel economy, exhilarating driving performance and go-anywhere capability coupled with the industry leading active and passive safety that comes standard with our Subaru Symmetrical All-Wheel Drive.”
To play devil's advocate with myself, I'll say the rounded bottom of the door panel does remind me of Subaru's TPH concept, and the fixed vent windows, framed windows and projector headlights are now part of Subaru's design vocabulary.
Lately, Subaru designs (except Stella) have felt to me more organic than this mule shows. If it is a Subaru, they're really ripping off the Versa.
I couldn't disagree more. That's what I own, a '06 WRX Limited—with leather, moonroof and auto climate control. That's exactly what I want. Thank you SOA.
Also, Impreza sales are waaaaay up this year, and much of that has to do with the new "gentrified" WRX Limited. In fact Subaru just reported that July sales were the best of any July in SOA history. Many thanks go to the Impreza which was up 21% over last July sales. I bet the leather and moonroof-equipped '07 STI Limited will sell out very quickly, as they only will be making 800 vehicles.
http://vocuspr.vocus.com/vocuspr30/...9b-262bf42514b7
You want a bare-bones WRX? It's already on sale; it's called the WRX TR. Subaru is making the right moves here, and I fully support what they're doing.
Bob
I think most of car enthusiasts are a fairly young crowd with no money. Most of mature car entusiasts I know (who also care about leather and climate control) would not consider WRX but will go for Legacy GT, or - if money is no object - for BMW or Porsche instead.
The new WRX is a solid hit. And old model that keeps growing in terms of sales, a dream come true for any manufacturer. I'm not sure if it's the 2.5T engine, or the styling, whatever, but sales are supposed to sag, not keep climbing, as a model ages.
The spy pic has an A-pillar with a small window toward the front, very reminiscent of the Tribeca. To add more to the speculation. I say Impreza hatch!
-juice
Bob
Also—Subaru does not make an entry-level WRX TR wagon.
Bob
Picture Of Subaru R1 (available in Japan) from Winter 2005 Drive Magazine
If Subaru would import these here, they'd get in on the emerging mini car market!
Subaru are you listening?
Microcars are usually hideous. That actually looks good.
-juice
Bob
No, he is not - Lack of moonroof option was a near dealbreaker for me in 03. And cheapo platstics/not so great sound system were not helping, either. It was just lack of competition at that time. I wanted the car despite those shortcomings, not because of them.
Today with pressure from Mazda3 (bottom) and Audi A3 (top), possible Caliber SRT-4, and others when you widen criteria a bit, there is no way they could leave "performance hatch/small sedan with optional premium features" market untouched. That market is growing, as prices for "entry luxury" sedans/wagons are moving upwards into high 30s/low 40s range.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
The WRX, no matter how you cut it, is Subaru's entry level sports car based on the Impreza. And I do not use entry-level to mean insignificant or cheap. It offers an amazing price-to-performance ratio unmatched by other vehicles in it's class. However, raw performance does not equal getting all the hardware to achieve maximum performance. That honor goes to the STi, which by definition, is Subaru's maximum performance model for any trim (WRX, Forester or Legacy). It's also not coincidence that the WRX also receives the lower of HP ratings out of the "sports" model line up (WRX, GT, Spec B, STi).
I think Bob hit the nail on the head with the observation that there needs to be a mid-range model between the GT and WRX. Subaru has been addressing this gap by increasing the content in the WRX, but the problem is that they have limited engine and transmission choices. The fact that quite a few "young" buyers have opted for Legacy GTs over WRX also points out this need, but Subaru decided to drop the base GT version.
I think that the WRX badge should remain true to what it was at it's inception. A basic model that offers amazing perfomance value (but not to be confused with maximum performance). Since the majority of WRX buyers do opt for the manual, I think your idea of dropping the EAT version may even be reasonable.
Ken
I really am looking forward to the 2008 model, and to see how the Impreza evolves. I think the marketing of the WRX Limited and STI Limited (as well as the entry-level TR) give some good clues as to where they're headed.
Bob
This is the problem. Since the current WRX EAT is not credible with its 4EAT and no sportshift in a high-perf car costing close to 30K, it does not sell. No rocket science there. Put a credible 5EAT with sportshift, at least in the WRX version of the Impreza, and it will sell and would not need to be dropped. Most of the key hardware like the VTD is already present in the EAT WRX, unlike other EAT Imprezas. Take it one step further and provide it with the 5EAT and sportshift especially since there is already an off-the-shelf 5EAT/sportshift and it will sell very well, at least in the US. Given a choice between leather/moonroof or 5EAT+sportshift, I would say that people would overwhelmingly choose the latter. In other words, introduce a WRX basic model (TR?) with 5EAT+sportshift and gear it for high-performance and it will sell quite well at the 25K pricepoint.
-juice
I fit right into that and and I've seen many others follow the same map, whether from the Impreza or Legacy sides. Unfortunately there's a big hole on the top for those who want something more refined than the Impreza STI or something more potent than the Legacy GT (and the Spec B doesn't go quite far enough to satisfy that.) I know because I've owned both a 2005 Legacy GT and a 2005 Impreza STI, have sold the GT and soon to do the same with the Impreza STI. Each vehicle has some stellar points, but I believe Subaru is missing a certain niche market, something the Impreza STI Limited isn't touching upon. It's the market that a Legacy STI could take by storm, it's that segment below the BMW M and Audi RS/S cars. The Legacy has close to the levels of quality and functionality, capable of serving up comparable levels of performance and with about $20k in change left in your pocket.
Gas prices have not gone that far through the roof to make such models out of the question. The interesting thing is essentially all of the parts are already in production, this doesn't seem like it should be so difficult to bring. I know people question the desire of such a car, however, there still appears to be plenty of modding going on over at LGT.com and NASIOC, so the demand has lessened very little.
It would be nice to see the gear from the Tuned by STI model in Japan including the Super Sport ABS and an active center differential integrated and tuned with the SI-drive for a truly complete driving experience, a multi-facet car. At the push of a button you can go from the economical and safe Intelligent mode to the fun Sport mode with 50:50 lock perhaps and Sport Sharp mode with a little bit more power while providing a 40F:60R bias helping the car be yet again more nimble and fun without losing it's safety edge. The perfect wolf in sheeps clothing if you ask me and the most versatile sporty car around, especially with that folding rear seat. Toss the Subaru/STI front limited-slip diff in and I'd be the happiest camper around. It is noticeable when trying to get the car to pull out of a corner or get it dislodged from the slippery stuff.
Just my thoughts on the matter, but as the old saying goes, if you build it, they will come. If executed well, I think you'd find my name as well as many others ready and waiting to purchase a Legacy STI come next summer with the MY08 model release.
Craig
Given the tight fit, I would expect the next cycle to have designed in more engine bay width.
John
Bob
Actually, Subaru needs to get the 5EAT and VDC across the lineup....
Craig