"But they don't make vehicles that the mass market wants. If they want to grow, they have to offer what the mass market wants."
I think you're half right... for the most part, they make vehicles the mass market doesn't know they want. People just don't know about the brand or models. That said, expanding the lineup by a couple models would certainly increase the odds that a buyer's needs could be met by the brand, and increasing the size of the current vehicles a little would help US sales.
Subaru got clobbered last time they tried to go mass-market appeal. I think they will continue to seek additional profitable niches until they have a larger sales volume that would allow them to compete better with mass-market brands on price and marketing. I don't think Subaru wants to be the car for everybody... at least not this decade.
Subaru is offering rebates on everything except the Impreza and do it all the time
I disagree.
The Forester, for instance, did not start getting rebates until many years after it was introduced. In fact I'm not sure the first generation (1998-2002) ever had rebates.
That's changed lately, but it's an older design on a too-small-for-its-class wheelbase.
Lately, sure, they've used more incentives, but that's in part because they moved upscale in price and content.
I guess I don't see their behavior as any different from what Honda and Toyota are doing. In fact, if you think about it, Subaru relies far less on fleet sales than Toyota does.
Another peek at fitzmall.com - Highlanders are going for $5000 off MSRP, even Hybrids (!) are going for $3000 off MSRP. Prius has rebates now. Matrix are about $2300 off list. Camrys at more than $3000 off MSRP, and there's another brand-new car.
All the cars that compete in the classes that Subaru is in have similar discounts.
Honda? Well, I'm bummed but the one no-haggle dealer near me stopped putting its prices on its web site, but even so, last time I looked (November 06) you could get an Odyssey EX for $25,552, and that's what my cousin paid for her Odyssey LX, last generation mind you, in 2002.
It's a buyer's market. Every manufacturer has slashed prices, and Honda and Toyota are not immune.
The Forester, for instance, did not start getting rebates until many years after it was introduced. In fact I'm not sure the first generation (1998-2002) ever had rebates.
That's great but unless you have a way back machine Mr. Peabody, it irrelevant. The market is about today.
Lately, sure, they've used more incentives, but that's in part because they moved upscale in price and content.
Perhaps the move that put them into the position they are in.
I guess I don't see their behavior as any different from what Honda and Toyota are doing. In fact, if you think about it, Subaru relies far less on fleet sales than Toyota does.
Subaru couldn't survive if it relied on fleet sales. Toyota has only recently gotten into it and I think it's because the fleet companies have come after them. As for Honda, they do miniscule fleet numbers.
Another peek at fitzmall.com
Fitzmall is an exception. You can't use their sales strategy as the rule for the entire industry. Just because they sacrifice profit in order to gain volume.
...and Honda and Toyota are not immune.
Never said they were. But they seem to rely on rebates less than Subaru does. And when you're a small volume manufacturer you can't rely of that.
But juice - the important thing here is that Subaru is looking to change their focus from engineering to consumers. It's basic marketing - if you want to sell a product, you have to offer a product someone wants to buy.
I think Honda traditionally has been recognized as an Engineering powerhouse, who has managed to use clever and innovative engineering and market awareness to create products that rarely bomb in the marketplace. Also, they rarely, if ever, sell to rental car fleets to maintain their strong margins. Even Toyota sells in large numbers to fleets.
People talk about rebates for an Odyssey or a Sienna. But the more important question is, how are the other competitors in the same market segment doing, relative to the price of an Odyssey or a Sienna ? Is a Nissan Quest or a Dodge Caravan or Ford minivan selling at MSRP ? Or even Invoice ? Or are those minivans selling at fire-sale prices that are 1000's of dollars below invoice, when an Odyssey is barely below Invoice ? You cannot analyze across market segments by comparing the sales of SUVs of one company with another company's sportscars to arrive at how each company is doing. Within each of the market segments they compete in, I would say that a Honda typically does very well in terms of margins, relative to the others in the same segment, and are usually the envy of other automakers. Which in turn leads to the strong resale of a typical Honda product.
If the market is about today, then even the Prius is getting rebates and discounts. Like I said, it's a buyer's market.
What Toyota sells at MSRP today?
I never liked the upscale strategy, and I hated the repeated use of the word "premium". I believe my opinion on that was very clear.
they seem to rely on rebates less than Subaru does
Here is where we disagree. I think they all rely on rebates, at least today.
We can debate regional pricing, but I'd immediately point to Alaska, which has one dealer charging list price for Subarus, and sending buyers down to Washington state in search of a better deal.
Your last paragraph is very true. Here at work, the example I'd use is the Palm Treo series vs. the BlackBerry. The Palm had the edge coming in, as most of our staff were used to the Palm platform, the graffiti language, etc. At one point they had virtually 100% market share in my dept.
But they came in offering bells and whistles that we didn't ask for. The devices were heavy, fragile, and fussy to use. RIM ate them for lunch, with a simpler, lighter, no frills machine that just gets the job done, and is easier to use.
Now BlackBerry has nearly 100% market share, in fact the last person hanging on to his Treo actually has both, and will soon probably give that up.
The lesson here is that Subaru had to stick to its roots - offer value and durability for loyal snow belt customers. Those customers weren't asking for luxury. The Tribeca is an entry luxury SUV aimed at people that don't want luxury and are anti-establishment and therefore don't want an SUV in the first place! :sick:
The van segment is a bit strange. Nissan suprisingly doesn't make the Quest significantly cheaper than the Ody or Sienna, odd because it lacks some features like 2nd row windows that open. I don't understand why there isn't a bigger price advantage, to be honest.
The only other van that, IMO, is as "complete", meaning windows that open, split folding 3rd row, SAC, VSC, etc., are the Korean twins, Sedona and Entourage, and those offer stellar value.
If the market is about today, then even the Prius is getting rebates and discounts. Like I said, it's a buyer's market.
And I'm not arguing that - you are. You're the one that brought up the Prius. Prius production has finally caught up to demand. Now they can't command over MSRP. As I said, today is what's important.
What Toyota sells at MSRP today?
None that I know of. But one manufacturer - Honda - manages to wring out long periods of MSRP and no incentives with their products. Take the CRV, Odyssey, Ridgeline, MDX, TSX. Somehow they're able to get MSRP and not offer any incentives on those products for quite a long time - some longer than others. But on an Accord - never.
Here is where we disagree. I think they all rely on rebates, at least today.
Every auto manufacturer offers rebates and incentives but not everyone relies on them as an everyday selling strategy on the majority of their product line. My feeling is that offering $2K rebates on a constant basis does nothing positive for a product brand or it's profitability. If one's product requires financial incentives to create sales, then there is something lacking in the product. It could be features, it could be price, it could be old technology.
The lesson here is that Subaru had to stick to its roots - offer value and durability for loyal snow belt customers. Those customers weren't asking for luxury.
And this I can agree with. But if growth is important, then they'll have to agree to give the consumer what they want to buy, not what the engineers want to make.
I hope someone at Subaru is reading the Subaru Forums and will evaluate the opinions and think about it. What better feed back from customers can you have.
One thing I have always appreciated about the Subaru forums here is the honesty and frankness, and the fact that even the most loyal Subaru owners will gripe about Subaru from time to time (in a beneficial way). On many enthusiast forums (like some of the Honda/Acura forums I follow), saying something negative about the brand will get you crucified. They take brand loyalty too far. Here, our brand loyalty is driven by genuine interest in Subaru.
I don't know. We see announcements like that all the time. Same language, same promises, just change the nameplate.
So far their "attention" to US market means going in opposite direction to what I want - less and less manuals, scraping wagon on Legacy, no performance wagons, dragging feet in content additions (think VDC, telescopic steering wheel, HID lamps, 6-speed manuals/5-6 speed autos, etc.).
I couldn't care less in Subaru version of Avalon or Camry. Legacy was just the right size for me, but not in the version they are selling now. Now they take it away completely.
All I can see from this is them taking path similar to what Mazda and Nissan did in mid 90s, which is exactly not what I want.
Well, you had said Subaru relied on incentives more than Toyota (and Honda) did, that's why I brought up the several Toyota examples.
As for Honda, perhaps this is a regional thing, but the Ridgeline never commanded MSRP around here. Nor did the new CR-V.
The Odyssey did but about 5 years ago, not lately. The Civic did for a very short amount of time, and the Fit still does but only because they have little supply.
Accord has lease specials right now, and they usually toss in subsidized finance rates. Those are incentives by my book.
What Honda and Toyota do better is manage the supply chain. Ideal is 60 days' supply, and many of their models are actually below that number, i.e. demand is greater than supply.
I don't think Subaru can reach that level given their strategy of increasing price/content and producing more cars. I predicted that early on, in 2004-2005, they could do one of the other, but not both.
That's what bit them. They raised prices and production. The $2000 incentives are basically to offset those price increases.
Ironically, they have cut production and the local dealer told me they can't keep enough in stock. This is why I do not expect incentives to increase much on most 2007s, even towards the end of the model year.
Any how, for all the reasons we've discussed, these conditions make for a buyer's market. I can get a brand new Odyssey for invoice and 0.9% financing for 36 months. My cousing paid MSRP 5 years ago, and no low rate either.
Honda is not immune to market trends favoring the buyer.
Well, you had said Subaru relied on incentives more than Toyota (and Honda) did, that's why I brought up the several Toyota examples.
The way I look at is that Subaru is offering rebates on 75% of it's product line. Honda nor Toyota are doing that right now. Yes they may have incentives but it's no where near what Subaru is doing.
As for Honda, perhaps this is a regional thing, but the Ridgeline never commanded MSRP around here. Nor did the new CR-V.
Around here the Ridgeline was MSRP for a few weeks. The Civic and the Ody were as well. Right now, the CRV is commanding near MSRP. Odysseys are about halfway between invoice and MSRP and they are not offering any financing specials in most of New England.
Accord has lease specials right now, and they usually toss in subsidized finance rates. Those are incentives by my book.
And that I agree with you that those are incentives. But I also made a point in my post to exclude the Accord as it's in the toughest market segment. It does have to offer incentives to turn product - I expect those incentives.
Honda is not immune to market trends favoring the buyer.
Again, I never said they were. But they do a better job of offering products the consumer wants and hence doesn't have to rely on incentives as often as Subaru. Which gets me back to the original point:
Hooray for Subaru for understanding that you have to focus on what the customer wants.
OK, now I understand you better, plus the regional differences explain a lot.
Around me, I guess the good part is that there are many dealers competing with each other. Subaru has just 600 or so dealers nationwide, but a full 7 of them are near me, so I can shop around.
Any how, for models I happen to be cross-shopping, and of course in my region, I see decent incentives on the Odyssey, Sienna, and Tribeca.
I see massive incentives on Dodge, Mazda, and Hyundai. I just wouldn't put Subaru in the latter group of massive discounts, is all.
The "focus on what the customer wants" strategy might be fine for me because the wife wants bigger vehicles next time around. Something Avalon-sized with AWD for her. I'll probably get an 08 Tribeca (or a van if it disappoints), and later trade in my Miata for some sort of fuel sipper that's still fun.
The hard part is figuring what it is customers want, especially from Subaru, which is differnet IMO than what customers want from Honda.
More emphasis on CA & Sunbelt? Southern comfort = northern exposure for me. C'mon, B9 Scrambler! :shades:
All in all, it's probably good news that they've decided to focus on the US for a sales increase. That should mean more offerings & more likelihood of special models, Forester STI, Legacy STI, etc.
I think with their current offering, the only real Sunbelt strategy they can have is pushing performance of the turbo models. So far they do exactly opposite.
For most people in Florida there is very little compelling about Outback or Legacy 2.5i. They are smaller, slower, and less fuel efficient than Camry or Accord - at often higher price. They have less content inside the cabin (when take the same price), 4 speed auto. This is at least the perception. Why in the world would anyone buy it here. It would take someone totally commited to AWD to disregard those concerns. How many of those we have in FL?
Now - Legacy GT, Forester XT - different story. Of course in volumes proportional to the price, but still - a lot to offer for someone who is interested in performance. But there are no marketing efforts to bring that and dealers are resisting of getting more cause "no demand". Of course, there is no demand if nobody knows about it :sick:
Impreza/WRX/STI are class of their own. They are probably most recognizable names here. It's really cool when another WRX driver waves to me - 6 years after introduction. It happens less frequently than it used to (in my first year - '03 virtually every WRX I passed would great each other). I still get "is this a turbo" once in a while - and I of course love it.
For me it's obvious - Sunbelt should be about performance. May yield lower volumes, but with right marketing they may get a chance from those who want Accord V6, TSX, S40/V50 T5, Saab 9-3 Aero - if they ever heared about it.
For sure, they can market themselves in the sunbelt for merely not being FWD. Enthusiasts either want RWD or AWD. The former is lighter and quicker, but the latter gets the power down better.
Thing is, you won't do a lot of volume. And that type of marketing might also attract the type of demographic that will send insurance rates to the sky and kill it for that reason alone.
Why in the world would folks who weren't committed to AWD purchase a Subaru? Well... Subaru has the safest lineup in the industry. That's gotta be worth some sales to those who are serious about safety. Again - it's gotta be marketed, though. And when you combine safety with performance, you've got a quality brand people can really be interested in checking out... if they can find a dealer.
Yes - safety. I honestly forgot. This IS very strong point and should be undlerlined all the time. It coincides with a visible shift in consumer's sentiment. Couple of years ago stereo would sell better than side impact airbags. Today it appears more and more would not touch a car without those airbags. Subaru has that.
And by the way I did not say they should abandon 2.5i line or anything, but just get a little more exposure to GT/XT line, same way as Nissan does for their 3.5 Altima, even though it is only fraction of its volume.
Legacy GT is faster than most cars in its price range, but nobody knows that. In Sunbelt, where AWD is a performance option, not a safety option (OK - there is added traction during rain, but it is too rare to use to really count). But to BE a performance option, you need a performance at the first place. 2.5i does not provided that - GT/XT does. If just anybody knew that...
Safety is a plus for Subaru in some ways, but they need to roll out VDC on every model. Right now they are lagging far behind everyone else with this important safety feature.
VDC is adequate, but certainly is not better than the Bosch system on VW and Audi. My VDC wagon does not hold a straight line in snow as well as my previous 2002 VW W8 wagon. There is an advantage to VDC if you want to push hard and let the tail hang out a little however! For a sedate driver, the Bosch system wins....and it is on front drive models also. Enthusiasts would all prefer VDC, but does that sell cars?
Dave, are they the same tires? I'd say that tires play a role in how well the Bosh system works compared to VDC.
Heck VDC on my Armada works like night and day between the stock Continental Tires (highway all season similar to the stock subaru tires) v. the Bridgestone AT Revos I have on it now in snow.
Mike, I doubt that it is the difference in tires...both with all season original OEM tires. As a long ago automation engineer, I have the feeling from the response of the vehicles that the difference is the result of two different things: 1)more sporting calibration of VDC 2)more lag or hysteresis in VDC. The shifting of power from front to back or back to front may be inherently slower than just using brakes. Dave
I'm sorry but you are wrong. The OEM tires that come on both my Armada and the Subarus plain old suck. This causes the ABS and consequently the VDC to kick in long before it's truely necessary. Put some good tires on the OB and I bet the VDC system will act quite differently than it did before. I've done it and it does make a difference!
Agree that tires alter the VDC equation somewhat. VDC runs when the tires slip. If they don't slip in the first place, VDC doesn't need to activate. Unfortunately, the OEM Bridgestone RE92A's do have a tendency to slip more on snow/ice than a number of competitors.
Obviously it doesn't mean that better tires eliminate the need for VDC. But it does mean that better tires help.
A couple of snowstorms ago I noticed that the ABS kept firing off when slowing down into a couple of turn lanes outside my neighborhood. Reading comments here and on other forums, I'm very sure that would not have happened with better tires. Our other (non-Subaru) vehicle has very good tires and the ABS never chattered in the same storm.
Just found out some interesting info that the 08s ATs will not only have paddle shifters but will do rev-matching as well on the 5EATs. Heard from a friend who's a die-hard stick driver that they are very slick.
Yep. It's been posted over at nabisco. I think it's called Gen II 5EAT. The paddle shifers will only be on the L-GT, not H-6 Outbacks. Not sure about the Outback XT?
For '07 only the L-GT and O-XT had shifting buttons on the steering wheel. My guess it's pretty much the same for '08, but using shifting paddles instead.
juice, As long as the JATCO (Nissan affilliate) automatics remain in use, improvements seem unlikely. However when Toyota suppliers are incorporated into Subaru manufacturing, I would expect 5 and 6 speed units such as used by Toyota, Ford and VW to appear.
So when will Toyota start calling the shots? (And potentially footing the bill for new tooling)
Here's the chart from NASIOC showing the '08 Legacy/OB model lineup:
It's great to see VDC working its way down. Wish it were available on the SE.
Newest talk over there is of a model not on the chart, to be introduced at SEMA in October, model codes 8AZ & 8DZ. Speculation says Legacy & Outback tuned by STI. Something above the Spec B & 3.0R.
And 14 Outbacks. They need to reduce the number of models and add more standalone options. It's silly to have a separate model for w/VDC & without, and w/NAV & without. Either of those should be available as an option on any model.
Comments
I think you're half right... for the most part, they make vehicles the mass market doesn't know they want. People just don't know about the brand or models. That said, expanding the lineup by a couple models would certainly increase the odds that a buyer's needs could be met by the brand, and increasing the size of the current vehicles a little would help US sales.
Subaru got clobbered last time they tried to go mass-market appeal. I think they will continue to seek additional profitable niches until they have a larger sales volume that would allow them to compete better with mass-market brands on price and marketing. I don't think Subaru wants to be the car for everybody... at least not this decade.
I disagree.
The Forester, for instance, did not start getting rebates until many years after it was introduced. In fact I'm not sure the first generation (1998-2002) ever had rebates.
That's changed lately, but it's an older design on a too-small-for-its-class wheelbase.
Lately, sure, they've used more incentives, but that's in part because they moved upscale in price and content.
I guess I don't see their behavior as any different from what Honda and Toyota are doing. In fact, if you think about it, Subaru relies far less on fleet sales than Toyota does.
Another peek at fitzmall.com - Highlanders are going for $5000 off MSRP, even Hybrids (!) are going for $3000 off MSRP. Prius has rebates now. Matrix are about $2300 off list. Camrys at more than $3000 off MSRP, and there's another brand-new car.
All the cars that compete in the classes that Subaru is in have similar discounts.
Honda? Well, I'm bummed but the one no-haggle dealer near me stopped putting its prices on its web site, but even so, last time I looked (November 06) you could get an Odyssey EX for $25,552, and that's what my cousin paid for her Odyssey LX, last generation mind you, in 2002.
It's a buyer's market. Every manufacturer has slashed prices, and Honda and Toyota are not immune.
MDX is a rare exception.
-juice
I think the new Civic did for a very short while, but now I think it's cooled down to a more normal supply/demand balance.
Prius was a year or two ago, but they started offering low-rate financing and now even a rebate.
-juice
That's great but unless you have a way back machine Mr. Peabody, it irrelevant. The market is about today.
Lately, sure, they've used more incentives, but that's in part because they moved upscale in price and content.
Perhaps the move that put them into the position they are in.
I guess I don't see their behavior as any different from what Honda and Toyota are doing. In fact, if you think about it, Subaru relies far less on fleet sales than Toyota does.
Subaru couldn't survive if it relied on fleet sales. Toyota has only recently gotten into it and I think it's because the fleet companies have come after them. As for Honda, they do miniscule fleet numbers.
Another peek at fitzmall.com
Fitzmall is an exception. You can't use their sales strategy as the rule for the entire industry. Just because they sacrifice profit in order to gain volume.
...and Honda and Toyota are not immune.
Never said they were. But they seem to rely on rebates less than Subaru does. And when you're a small volume manufacturer you can't rely of that.
But juice - the important thing here is that Subaru is looking to change their focus from engineering to consumers. It's basic marketing - if you want to sell a product, you have to offer a product someone wants to buy.
People talk about rebates for an Odyssey or a Sienna. But the more important question is, how are the other competitors in the same market segment doing, relative to the price of an Odyssey or a Sienna ? Is a Nissan Quest or a Dodge Caravan or Ford minivan selling at MSRP ? Or even Invoice ? Or are those minivans selling at fire-sale prices that are 1000's of dollars below invoice, when an Odyssey is barely below Invoice ? You cannot analyze across market segments by comparing the sales of SUVs of one company with another company's sportscars to arrive at how each company is doing. Within each of the market segments they compete in, I would say that a Honda typically does very well in terms of margins, relative to the others in the same segment, and are usually the envy of other automakers. Which in turn leads to the strong resale of a typical Honda product.
What Toyota sells at MSRP today?
I never liked the upscale strategy, and I hated the repeated use of the word "premium". I believe my opinion on that was very clear.
they seem to rely on rebates less than Subaru does
Here is where we disagree. I think they all rely on rebates, at least today.
We can debate regional pricing, but I'd immediately point to Alaska, which has one dealer charging list price for Subarus, and sending buyers down to Washington state in search of a better deal.
Your last paragraph is very true. Here at work, the example I'd use is the Palm Treo series vs. the BlackBerry. The Palm had the edge coming in, as most of our staff were used to the Palm platform, the graffiti language, etc. At one point they had virtually 100% market share in my dept.
But they came in offering bells and whistles that we didn't ask for. The devices were heavy, fragile, and fussy to use. RIM ate them for lunch, with a simpler, lighter, no frills machine that just gets the job done, and is easier to use.
Now BlackBerry has nearly 100% market share, in fact the last person hanging on to his Treo actually has both, and will soon probably give that up.
The lesson here is that Subaru had to stick to its roots - offer value and durability for loyal snow belt customers. Those customers weren't asking for luxury. The Tribeca is an entry luxury SUV aimed at people that don't want luxury and are anti-establishment and therefore don't want an SUV in the first place! :sick:
-juice
The only other van that, IMO, is as "complete", meaning windows that open, split folding 3rd row, SAC, VSC, etc., are the Korean twins, Sedona and Entourage, and those offer stellar value.
-juice
And I'm not arguing that - you are. You're the one that brought up the Prius. Prius production has finally caught up to demand. Now they can't command over MSRP. As I said, today is what's important.
What Toyota sells at MSRP today?
None that I know of. But one manufacturer - Honda - manages to wring out long periods of MSRP and no incentives with their products. Take the CRV, Odyssey, Ridgeline, MDX, TSX. Somehow they're able to get MSRP and not offer any incentives on those products for quite a long time - some longer than others. But on an Accord - never.
Here is where we disagree. I think they all rely on rebates, at least today.
Every auto manufacturer offers rebates and incentives but not everyone relies on them as an everyday selling strategy on the majority of their product line. My feeling is that offering $2K rebates on a constant basis does nothing positive for a product brand or it's profitability. If one's product requires financial incentives to create sales, then there is something lacking in the product. It could be features, it could be price, it could be old technology.
The lesson here is that Subaru had to stick to its roots - offer value and durability for loyal snow belt customers. Those customers weren't asking for luxury.
And this I can agree with. But if growth is important, then they'll have to agree to give the consumer what they want to buy, not what the engineers want to make.
and will evaluate the opinions and think about it.
What better feed back from customers can you have.
http://blogs.edmunds.com/Straightline/2385
Bob
So far their "attention" to US market means going in opposite direction to what I want - less and less manuals, scraping wagon on Legacy, no performance wagons, dragging feet in content additions (think VDC, telescopic steering wheel, HID lamps, 6-speed manuals/5-6 speed autos, etc.).
I couldn't care less in Subaru version of Avalon or Camry. Legacy was just the right size for me, but not in the version they are selling now. Now they take it away completely.
All I can see from this is them taking path similar to what Mazda and Nissan did in mid 90s, which is exactly not what I want.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
As for Honda, perhaps this is a regional thing, but the Ridgeline never commanded MSRP around here. Nor did the new CR-V.
The Odyssey did but about 5 years ago, not lately. The Civic did for a very short amount of time, and the Fit still does but only because they have little supply.
Accord has lease specials right now, and they usually toss in subsidized finance rates. Those are incentives by my book.
What Honda and Toyota do better is manage the supply chain. Ideal is 60 days' supply, and many of their models are actually below that number, i.e. demand is greater than supply.
I don't think Subaru can reach that level given their strategy of increasing price/content and producing more cars. I predicted that early on, in 2004-2005, they could do one of the other, but not both.
That's what bit them. They raised prices and production. The $2000 incentives are basically to offset those price increases.
Ironically, they have cut production and the local dealer told me they can't keep enough in stock. This is why I do not expect incentives to increase much on most 2007s, even towards the end of the model year.
Any how, for all the reasons we've discussed, these conditions make for a buyer's market. I can get a brand new Odyssey for invoice and 0.9% financing for 36 months. My cousing paid MSRP 5 years ago, and no low rate either.
Honda is not immune to market trends favoring the buyer.
-juice
http://ir.fhi.co.jp/english/corporate/pdf/vision_fhi_2007.pdf
http://ir.fhi.co.jp/english/news/pdf/2007_02_28_2.pdf
-juice
Bob
-juice
Now where have I read that??
The way I look at is that Subaru is offering rebates on 75% of it's product line. Honda nor Toyota are doing that right now. Yes they may have incentives but it's no where near what Subaru is doing.
As for Honda, perhaps this is a regional thing, but the Ridgeline never commanded MSRP around here. Nor did the new CR-V.
Around here the Ridgeline was MSRP for a few weeks. The Civic and the Ody were as well. Right now, the CRV is commanding near MSRP. Odysseys are about halfway between invoice and MSRP and they are not offering any financing specials in most of New England.
Accord has lease specials right now, and they usually toss in subsidized finance rates. Those are incentives by my book.
And that I agree with you that those are incentives. But I also made a point in my post to exclude the Accord as it's in the toughest market segment. It does have to offer incentives to turn product - I expect those incentives.
Honda is not immune to market trends favoring the buyer.
Again, I never said they were. But they do a better job of offering products the consumer wants and hence doesn't have to rely on incentives as often as Subaru. Which gets me back to the original point:
Hooray for Subaru for understanding that you have to focus on what the customer wants.
Around me, I guess the good part is that there are many dealers competing with each other. Subaru has just 600 or so dealers nationwide, but a full 7 of them are near me, so I can shop around.
Any how, for models I happen to be cross-shopping, and of course in my region, I see decent incentives on the Odyssey, Sienna, and Tribeca.
I see massive incentives on Dodge, Mazda, and Hyundai. I just wouldn't put Subaru in the latter group of massive discounts, is all.
The "focus on what the customer wants" strategy might be fine for me because the wife wants bigger vehicles next time around. Something Avalon-sized with AWD for her. I'll probably get an 08 Tribeca (or a van if it disappoints), and later trade in my Miata for some sort of fuel sipper that's still fun.
The hard part is figuring what it is customers want, especially from Subaru, which is differnet IMO than what customers want from Honda.
-juice
All in all, it's probably good news that they've decided to focus on the US for a sales increase. That should mean more offerings & more likelihood of special models, Forester STI, Legacy STI, etc.
For most people in Florida there is very little compelling about Outback or Legacy 2.5i. They are smaller, slower, and less fuel efficient than Camry or Accord - at often higher price. They have less content inside the cabin (when take the same price), 4 speed auto. This is at least the perception. Why in the world would anyone buy it here. It would take someone totally commited to AWD to disregard those concerns. How many of those we have in FL?
Now - Legacy GT, Forester XT - different story. Of course in volumes proportional to the price, but still - a lot to offer for someone who is interested in performance. But there are no marketing efforts to bring that and dealers are resisting of getting more cause "no demand". Of course, there is no demand if nobody knows about it :sick:
Impreza/WRX/STI are class of their own. They are probably most recognizable names here. It's really cool when another WRX driver waves to me - 6 years after introduction. It happens less frequently than it used to (in my first year - '03 virtually every WRX I passed would great each other). I still get "is this a turbo" once in a while - and I of course love it.
For me it's obvious - Sunbelt should be about performance. May yield lower volumes, but with right marketing they may get a chance from those who want Accord V6, TSX, S40/V50 T5, Saab 9-3 Aero - if they ever heared about it.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Thing is, you won't do a lot of volume. And that type of marketing might also attract the type of demographic that will send insurance rates to the sky and kill it for that reason alone.
Risky strategy.
-juice
And by the way I did not say they should abandon 2.5i line or anything, but just get a little more exposure to GT/XT line, same way as Nissan does for their 3.5 Altima, even though it is only fraction of its volume.
Legacy GT is faster than most cars in its price range, but nobody knows that. In Sunbelt, where AWD is a performance option, not a safety option (OK - there is added traction during rain, but it is too rare to use to really count). But to BE a performance option, you need a performance at the first place. 2.5i does not provided that - GT/XT does. If just anybody knew that...
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Subaru tried to market VDC as a big deal, yet Kia made it standard on the lowly Sportage long ago.
It's *not* a big deal any more. If VDC is better, they should market that difference.
-juice
VDC is adequate, but certainly is not better than the Bosch system on VW and Audi. My VDC wagon does not hold a straight line in snow as well as my previous 2002 VW W8 wagon. There is an advantage to VDC if you want to push hard and let the tail hang out a little however!
Dave
Heck VDC on my Armada works like night and day between the stock Continental Tires (highway all season similar to the stock subaru tires) v. the Bridgestone AT Revos I have on it now in snow.
-mike
I doubt that it is the difference in tires...both with all season original OEM tires. As a long ago automation engineer, I have the feeling from the response of the vehicles that the difference is the result of two different things: 1)more sporting calibration of VDC 2)more lag or hysteresis in VDC. The shifting of power from front to back or back to front may be inherently slower than just using brakes.
Dave
-mike
Obviously it doesn't mean that better tires eliminate the need for VDC. But it does mean that better tires help.
A couple of snowstorms ago I noticed that the ABS kept firing off when slowing down into a couple of turn lanes outside my neighborhood. Reading comments here and on other forums, I'm very sure that would not have happened with better tires. Our other (non-Subaru) vehicle has very good tires and the ABS never chattered in the same storm.
-juice
-mike
I think that sounds pretty neat for someone who has to get an auto (maybe the spouse doesn't drive stick).
I tend to like them.
Oh, on the '08 Tribeca, please?
-juice
Bob
They're still withholding all the good stuff from the affordable models. :mad:
-juice
For '07 only the L-GT and O-XT had shifting buttons on the steering wheel. My guess it's pretty much the same for '08, but using shifting paddles instead.
Bob
A 5 speed auto with paddle shifters might compensate somewhat for that, but we might not ever see that on the 2.5i models.
-juice
As long as the JATCO (Nissan affilliate) automatics remain in use, improvements seem unlikely. However when Toyota suppliers are incorporated into Subaru manufacturing, I would expect 5 and 6 speed units such as used by Toyota, Ford and VW to appear.
So when will Toyota start calling the shots? (And potentially footing the bill for new tooling)
Dave
While Subaru's flagship models seem to have it all, the base models make many, many compromises.
-juice
I'm very, very impressed. They really went with their own design here. It even has all the characteristics you'd expect from a Subaru drivetrain.
Looks like they got no help at all from Toyota.
Way to go, Subaru, I feel VERY PROUD right now! Major thumbs up!
-juice
http://www.boxer6.com/documents/TURBO_DIESEL.mov
It's great to see VDC working its way down. Wish it were available on the SE.
Newest talk over there is of a model not on the chart, to be introduced at SEMA in October, model codes 8AZ & 8DZ. Speculation says Legacy & Outback tuned by STI. Something above the Spec B & 3.0R.
They could streamline them into just these 8:
SE manual
SE auto
2.5i Limited auto
GT Ltd man
GT Ltd auto
GT Ltd NAV auto
spec.B man
3.0R
And make VDC standard on all models.
-juice