Subaru Crew - Future Models II

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  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    There's a hybrid coming too. My guess—and it's only a guess—is that it might show up on joint-venture Toyota-Subaru boxer-powered RWD coupe. I would think, to keep the Subaru AWD DNA intact, that they could use electric motors to power the front wheels.

    Again... that's pure speculation on my part.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Absolutely. The 335d cost more than $10 grand more than a 328i. It's ridiculous.

    Even at $10 grand higher than a base Legacy, that just won't sell at all.

    Side note - DC has lots of diplomats, and yesterday I saw one driving a BMW 320d, must be one of the smaller diesels available only in Europe. It had temporary diplomatic tags, first I've ever seen.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    A while back there were rumors of a high-performance WRX diesel, as well as the existing 2.0 diesel. So... might there be a 2.5 diesel also in the works?

    A 2.5 diesel would be about perfect in the larger Outback, I would think.

    Bob
  • colin_lcolin_l Member Posts: 591
    I believe the Jetta* TDI is like $5,000 over the really stripped down base model, but only $2,000 more than the model most people really start with, the SE. Then you get $1,300 of that back from the Feds because it's a diesel.

    * Yes, I said Passat in my last post. Oops. :blush:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Subaru should not make the mistake of not offering a "base" model with a diesel, though.

    What's the point of fuel economy when the car itself isn't economical to buy?

    I'd like to see a diesel Forester Xd, and an Outback with a diesel that isn't a Limited, either.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    For some people the diesel's incredible torque is more important than the fuel economy. Same with the fantastic cruising range, but admittedly that's tied in to fuel economy. The thought of driving from here (MD) to my sister-in-law's home (NH) on less than 1 tank is pretty neat.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Showtime!

    The 2010 auto show season is about to launch. What will Subaru be showing?

    Frankfurt is next month and it's rumored that Toyota will show a concept (I'm assuming it's a concept) of their Subaru-Toyota RWD coupe. That should give us a pretty good idea as to what this vehicle will look like. I also expect Subaru to debut the Euro-spec 2010 Legacy and Outback—and with the diesel, of course. The question is will it be offered with the CVT in addition to the 6-speed manual?

    In October there's the Tokyo auto show. I haven't a clue, but I'm sure Subaru will have something new on hand, as this show only occurs every other year. Maybe a concept version of their RWD coupe? Also, being in Japan, I wouldn't be surprised to see a Legacy STI concept.

    Then in November is the LA show. I don't expect anything from Subaru to be announced here, as they don't usually use this show to announce vehicles. Then again, the Baja concept (STX) debuted at LA in 2000...

    In January there's the Detroit show. I expect something new here from Subaru. The Subie concept version of the Toyota coupe? Maybe showing up as a hybrid with electric motors powering the front wheels?

    Chicago? Nah, Subaru has never used this February show to announce anything new. I doubt that will change.

    Geneva in March might see something? A while back there were some rumors of a high-performance WRX diesel; might we see that? Maybe a 2.5L version? Remember Europe is diesel-crazy.

    Finally there's NY in late March/early April—and Subaru always uses this show to announce something. I'm guessing they will "leak" news that the 2011 STI sedan will be there—and then surprise us on the press day by also showing the US-spec Forester (or Outback?) diesel. Remember they pulled a similar stunt last year at New York by leaking news of the Legacy ahead of time, and then surprising us also with the Outback on press day. Could happen again...

    Oh... this is just pure speculation on my part, with no insider's info, but based on studying Subaru show debuts for years, and what we know is in the works.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    True, but those "some people" make up a very small niche. For mainstream success they will have to offer strong value with their diesels, not just torque. HP numbers sell, torque doesn't, so if they rely on that sales will fail.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    There's a small (but growing) and very dedicated group of diesel owners out there already. I'm sure they'll appeal to those buyers, especially those who want diesel and AWD.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    In Frankfurt we'll see a Scion cC, for coupe/convertible, based on the shared platform.

    Subaru will show their AWD version of the coupe only at Tokyo.

    In LA we'll see a silly, never-to-be-seen-in-production, variant of the new Forester. Not a woody, but a cool outdoorsy concept with a full exo-skeleton and a low range.

    Then in Detroit we'll see a Legacy STi with a turbo H6, maybe twin turbo.

    Chicago will bring a new Outback H6 SE model, a de-contented bargain priced H6 model that isn't a Limited.

    In Geneva Subaru will show their diesels for the full range.

    A select few of those diesels will make it to NY, I'm guessing the OB and Forester.

    Wildly optimistic, I know.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Hmmm... No more 2-martini lunches for you. :)

    Bob
  • saedavesaedave Member Posts: 694
    For mainstream success they will have to offer strong value with their diesels, not just torque.

    And they'll have to prove that a modern diesel won't be affected by fuel jelling in below zero winters..........places where there are lots of Subaru owners. Perhaps the new low sulphur fuel is better than back when I drove a diesel; I have not seen any data. I had to occasionally let my turbodiesel idle all night in the closed (away from the house) garage to prevent fuel jelling. It certainly smelled bad in the morning. :mad:
  • colin_lcolin_l Member Posts: 591
    Low sulfur doesn't help with gelling. You'd have to plug in your engine block heater the same as usual.

    Actually, we formulated a diesel fuel a few years back that was highly gel resistant, but it totally failed in the market and I'm pretty sure it's no longer sold.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Sounds like the market timing wasn't right Colin. If it does what you say, maybe it's time to reintroduce it again?

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    *hic* Why? *hic* ;)
  • volkovvolkov Member Posts: 1,306
    Just have to make sure you have and use a block heater, and there should be no problems, that's for sure. I'm assuming block heaters are readily available in all Subie markets. Some Gen I Prius owners had to order block heaters from Canada because Toyo US wouldn't source them and their dealers wouldn't install them. That's a big deal amongst the hypermilers, because Hybrids run much more economically if pre-warmed so quite a few owners run them almost year round. It's the reason the new Prius has an insulated engine reservoir sort of like a giant thermos to keep the fluids hot when not in use.
    Many many diesels up here (mostly pick ups obviously) but they do fine in the cold. The new VW diesels are reported to run fine on first start up even in bitter (-30) cold we had last year.
  • saedavesaedave Member Posts: 694
    Low sulfur doesn't help with gelling. You'd have to plug in your engine block heater the same as usual

    But that didn't work in the company parking lot. I was lucky; my Audi turbodiesel (and the VW diesels) would start at 10 degrees colder temperature than the Mercedes.

    A friend could have frozen to death on the highway when their diesel jelled while driving 50 mph in Wisconsin. They were rescued by the highway patrol. They never went to skee using that car again.
  • dcm61dcm61 Member Posts: 1,567
    Chicago will bring a new Outback H6 SE model, a de-contented bargain priced H6 model that isn't a Limited.

    The '10 H6 has the same 3 trimlines as the H4. Base, Premium, and Limited.
  • colin_lcolin_l Member Posts: 591
    That's probably about right. We had low sulfur diesel in 1998, also. Didn't impress consumers, but the government liked it enough to mandate that everyone switch to it in 2007.

    Honestly I don't know. :)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    OK, Mr. Encyclopedia. ;)

    I still say we see some sort of Special Edition Outback.

    I'll take my meds now.
  • tifightertifighter Member Posts: 3,800
    I personally think that the Subaru brand and VW brand appeal to similar types of buyers. Even though one wouldn't think that a German faux-aspirational brand would have anything in common with Japanese AWD line-up, I know plenty of people that have owned at least one of each, sometimes at the same time. Didn't VW recently say that Jetta sales are now about 40% TDI? To me, Subaru has perhaps a better chance then most automakers to create and have a nice little diesel business in the US, and it compliments (co-owner) Toyota and their hybrid line with little line up crossover.

    Other brands may have to try very hard to convince buyers of the benefits of diesel, but I think Subaru won't have to fight this battle as hard...many of its owners and prospective buyers are already in the choir...

    25 NX 450h+ / 24 Sienna Plat AWD / 23 Civic Type-R / 21 Boxster GTS 4.0

  • saedavesaedave Member Posts: 694
    I personally think that the Subaru brand and VW brand appeal to similar types of buyers

    I'm one of them: decades of VW and Audi models including an Audi turbo diesel, but no more because of reliability issues. My Subarus have stayed out of the service bay except for frequent oil changes. But I'm not sure that the fattened 2010 Legacy and Outback have the appeal of VW/Audi space efficiency. The Forester with a Diesel might just hit that market dead-on. There is one hitch: Subaru cold climate sales. Those of us who have had a diesel in below zero weather will not repeat the experience.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,726
    Nah. Maybe in areas where sub-zero weather is intermittent, but in the far north or truly cold climates, the vehicles (and fuels) are prepped for such weather. I would guess that one in five-or-six vehicles in Fairbanks, AK, is diesel and they have no problems even on the coldest of days.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • saedavesaedave Member Posts: 694
    Nah. Maybe in areas where sub-zero weather is intermittent, but in the far north or truly cold climates, the vehicles (and fuels) are prepped for such weather.

    You are probably correct, but I seem to remember adding kerosene to my diesel to keep it from gelling here in Chicago. Perhaps oil company distributors are doing a better job of matching fuel to climate now...if not, jelling incidents will be well publicised if there are enough automotive diesels in IL, WI,MN,& ND. Over-the-road trucks used to have fuel tank heaters; perhaps they still do.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Then in Detroit we'll see a Legacy STi with a turbo H6, maybe twin turbo.

    You've got my attention :D
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,726
    That's true. If the diesel is not changed out for winter in the pumps (all the pumps in Alaska except Southeast switch to #1 in October and run it through some point in April), then drivers definitely would need to be in tune with the weather and modify as necessary.

    I suspect that extreme cold in the mid-west is intermittent enough that your scenario may just play out. :(
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Fuel consumption to improve by 30%, but sporty driving may be a casualty as the focus shifts to ecological matters.

    From the link:
    Subaru's Executive Director of Purchasing Naoto Mutou stated, "As there is an adjustment in cost allotment, the excess money spent on the focus of driveability will shift to a current necessity - fuel consumption."

    http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=27790939&postcount=1

    Not sure what to make of this. If true, it sounds like the Impreza we all knew and loved could soon be dead. :( Also stated is that the Impreza is just the first future Subaru to follow this plan, as all future Subies will get the same treatment.

    Bob
  • samiam_68samiam_68 Member Posts: 775
    This will probably be the first Subie with direct injection.
  • css1css1 Member Posts: 247
    Let's be optomistic!

    The car will have a CVT which will increase mileage. It will be slower but I don't think handling and AWD will be sacrificed.

    As for reduction in parts - That can be accomplished by:
    Making one body style and differentiate the WRX and STI by paint color - not body panels. The 4-door will probably be gone.
    Fewer options - more standard features.
    A center touchscreen for Radio/AC/Heat/clock
    Fewer "doored compartments" - more cubbies
    And unfortunately - de-contenting.

    Prediction:
    By 2015 there will be 4 motors - impreza's 2.0, Legacy's 2.5, A diesel, and the 3.6
    BUT there will be only a 6 speed manual, and a CVT transmission

    Charlie
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    SOA blog (a high-up SOA rep who hangs out at NASIOC) expressed some concern over the Japanese-to-English translation of this article.

    http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=27795942&postcount=44

    So he did some follow-up research and this is what he found out:

    http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=27805889&postcount=85

    Bob
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    In a survey I got from Subaru after purchasing my OBS this spring, I told them I wouldn't buy another Subaru in future unless it got at least 30% better fuel economy. Regardless of the mis-translation and whatnot, it sounds like the folks at Subaru ARE beginning to take fuel economy seriously, and I like that because I meant what I said.

    If the next-gen Impreza gets 30% better fuel economy it will probably be on my short list in five years' time. And let's also have less body roll next time around, Subaru!

    I don't know why they don't bring over the smaller-displacement engines they have in Japan, or at least the diesels they have in Europe. Right now all the Imprezas are gas guzzlers by small car standards.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Well, it is crazy that the Legacy 2.5i gets much better mileage than the smaller Impreza right now.

    Impreza competes in a segment where 30-40 mpg is the norm.

    The 2.5l + CVT combo is much needed, but I think they should even consider a base 2.0l model as well, also with the CVT.
  • colin_lcolin_l Member Posts: 591
    30-40 mpg is the norm?? I don't think so. Only diesels and hybrids are in that stratosphere.

    Even the basic 1.8L civic 'only' gets 24/36, although that's a tidy bit more than the basic Impreza's 20/26. I feel like the major reason for that is displacement. A 2.5L engine uses more fuel than a 1.8L.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Well, I'm talking entry-level for Toyota and Honda, i.e. Yaris and Fit.

    I realize the Impreza is a little bit bigger and definitely more substantial, but you enter a Subaru dealer and ask for their entry-level car, and that's what you get.

    I don't imagine the R2 making it here any time soon, so they should consider stretching the Impreza lineup with a 2.0l model to serve both Americans that are after gas mileage. ;)
  • colin_lcolin_l Member Posts: 591
    Subaru has small cars like the Yaris and Fit! Comparing them to the Impreza is folly, I think.

    Subaru needs to bring them over here, and to be honest, this is typical Subaru to arrive late for the party.

    But I do agree that something has to be done about the base Impreza gas mileage.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That's what I mean. Do one or the other. You can't have your lowest priced car getting 26mpg highway.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,726
    26 mpg highway? Really? The folks I know with them regularly get 29-30 in mixed driving. AWD is an important factor, quite honestly, and will certainly eat into otherwise excellent fuel economy. I noticed on the Forester I drove last week that when coasting down a hill that I regularly coast with my Escort, the Forester lost significant speed while the Escort maintains. I can only assume that much of that added resistance was due to the AWD system.

    I would gladly trade my 36 mpg average in mixed driving that I get from my Escort for 30 mpg with AWD.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • colin_lcolin_l Member Posts: 591
    I know the base 2.5L non-turbo has changed somewhat, but the Impreza has also gotten heavier. My '99 Impreza 2.5RS got only 22mpg average. I now get that same 22mpg average (maybe 65% highway) with my Evo... and have roughly twice the horsepower. :)
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,726
    and have roughly twice the horsepower

    And I bet that feels very, very nice..... :D
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • colin_lcolin_l Member Posts: 591
    The scary thing is that even with the modifications I've done, the performance sedan market has moved into the 300-350 HP range as being typical. So yeah-- my car's fast, but it's not like I can just blow the doors off a G37 or something.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,726
    But, do you need to? As long as you have a smile on your face, the car's job is done. ;)
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I mean EPA numbers, for shopping purposes. That's what consumers see.

    I bet Subaru lost some C4C deals because a lot of models don't get the desired 28mpg EPA combined.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,726
    Yes, for those listed as "passenger cars," I bet you are right (Impreza, Legacy).
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    It's why we're likely buying a Fit this fall. We still have the old OB for the foul stuff, but it doesn't make sense for Kirst and Elie to run to school and back every day in a new Impreza making 20 mpg when the Fit makes 26 or 27. When the OB finally rots, I will replace it with another one, but still, I'm going to have to give up my manual transmission I think, in favor of the CVT.

    By then though, there WILL be a Subie diesel. The UK press isn't in love with it, compared to lumps from BMW, VW and Audi (not to mention PSA and Opel), so we'll see how it drives.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Our new Forester hasn't been below 22mpg since we bought it. And we've broken 30.

    EPA numbers are 21/26 IIRC, so the Legacy CVT at 31mpg highway means the Forester's numbers should improve nicely once it gets that.

    My mom has a Fit (previous gen), and it's great around town, but on the highway it's buzzy and out of place. My brother's Civic feels like a luxury car compared to mom's Fit.

    Being the selfish bastage that I am, I always arrange it so that I ride with my brother, because I know I'll be 10 times more comfortable! :D
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    well sure, and new Fit owners we know are showing solid 35-37mpg average mixed use, so we can all be clear that current EPA ratings are probably pessimistic across the board. It's going to be 5-8 mpg better than Impreza in town, no matter how you slice it.

    anyhoo, around-town is what we need at the moment, and the new Fit is quite a leap over the outgoing (8 year old platform) model.

    It will be interesting, because I have to hand the Camry in soon and start using the Outback as my daily driver. at 145k, I don't expect it to be thrilled about that for more than 18-24 months. That puts me in the market for 2011 or 2012 model for myself. Outback? Subie diesel? Impreza 5 door? Time will tell :P
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Prolly good timing, by then you'll have lots of choices - CVTs, diesels, who knows.
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    you can't "build" an Impreza 5-door? I can't get the image to switch from sedan to wagon. Lame.
  • dcm61dcm61 Member Posts: 1,567
    The 5-door is an option package. :confuse:

    Listed as 5-Door Option ($500) under "Choose Your Package".

    I agree, it's lame.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=27879448&postcount=21
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