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If anything, drop the STI, and give the regular WRX that 6 speed. Remember, the Mazda3 gets a 6 speed standard, even the Nissan Versa does. Most of the WRX' competition has 6 ratios now.
I could see a diesel slotting between the Impreza 2.5i and the WRX, which could move a tad upscale.
Dropping the WRX in favor of a diesel-only model would kill sales.
Bob
Yeah, but it is not just a matter of 6 ratios either. The STI 6-speed is a world apart from the WRX transmission in terms of the huge amounts of power and torque it can natively handle (WAY more than the stock 305HP/295Torque). Plus those 6 ratios are designed to work with an entirely different AWD system (front/center/rear mechanical diffs) than the simple/cheap visous system that the WRX has. Thus it costs a lot more money to make. Dropping this into the WRX will mean that the WRX cost will go up tremendously, which means the car will not sell at all. The WRX's attractiveness is the relative closeness in the HP/Torque number when compared to the STI (which fools the masses into thinking they are the same car, with one car costing a lot less) at a hugely reduced pricepoint and once that pricepoint rises by a few 1000 dollars, the attractiveness of the car will evaporate.
As an aside, the 6-speed transmission of the Legacy or the Legacy 2.5GT, cannot be placed on the same planet as the STI's 6-speed transmission, in terms of the amount of torque/HP it can natively handle. The STI transmission is heavy, with extremely robust and heavy gears, that are over-engineered for its design mission.....and they cost accordingly.
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/09/30/tokyo-preview-subaru-hybrid-tourer-looks-read- y-to-take-flight/
http://blogs.edmunds.com/straightline/2009/09/tokyo-preview-subaru-hybrid-tourer- -concept.html#more
STI Carbon:
http://blogs.edmunds.com/straightline/2009/09/tokyo-preview-subaru-impreza-wrx-s- ti-carbon.html
Love the new hybrid concept.
Bob
Interesting that this is the first Subie turbo shown without a hood scoop.
Bob
Why is that? I know you're right, but it really does not seem like an impractical design element.
Best. Subaru. EVER!
Gorgeous, holy cow! I can hardly believe it's a Subaru!
Aren't they supposed to be quirky?
My, oh my, that is a thing of beauty.
If they produce that as is I'd buy one tomorrow, even though I'm not in the market for a new car.
The design is so...inspired. I see hints of Mercedes, Alfa Romeo, even Subaru's own SVX in the canopy, yet the result is somehow greater than the sum of its parts.
It is simply STUNNING! Please do not change a thing!
Heck I'd probably like it even without the gullwing doors, but that puts Mercedes' new gullwing concept to shame!
I had to wait about 2 hours just to respond, to regain my composure. That's how excited I was about it.
That is a car kids will put posters up on their wall. I want a 24"x36" poster of this shot:
There are obvious downsides, such as how much power can be directed to the rear in front wheel traction loss situations, but the plus is that AWD driveline power loss is essentially the same as FWD.
Until someone parks beside you only 18" from your door!! I remember reading somewhere that is why exotic manufacturers went to the scissor design instead.
Don't think you'd like the middle rear seat!
I could see it, however, as a low-volume, weekend-only, halo car; but it could be tough dealing with the real world as being a daily driver.
Bob
It would replace my Miata, not my minivan. Not nearly big enough for that.
It could also replace our Forester, though my wife insists she's keeping that forever.
I do a city commute so the hybrid drivetrain would suit me perfectly, lots of stop and go.
Finally, FINALLY, a sexy hybrid I'd actually consider. Prius is geek chic but I'm already an IT geek and I could go incognito in that Subaru. :shades:
I'd prefer if the gas engine were physically connected to the rear wheels, but I can understand the limitations of HSD. With equal length front half shafts and a little rear boost I don't think it would have any torque steer.
I'm excited just thinking about the prospect of driving one.
But, you are not a kid. Or, maybe I should ask your children about that....
Points taken regarding the gullwings. What size car are we looking at, though? Is this thing legacy-sized?
Anyone got dimensions?
kcram - Pickups/Wagons Host
http://www.fhi.co.jp/english/contents/pdf_en_55711.pdf
It states the Exiga 2.0GT tuned by STI (link below) is scheduled for Japanese production.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=28321339&postcount=39
The hybrid tourer concept will be the star of this Subie exhibit, which leads to the next obvious question: When will we see a Subaru concept version of the FHI-Toyota coupe? LA? Detroit?
Bob
Typically in a rollover situation you are somewhat disoriented anyway; it is both easy and saves time.
Can't wait to see it in person.
I think given the near-100% positive reaction, Subaru will show it everywhere.
Seriously, has there EVER been such support for a Subaru design? They're lucky if over half of people like anything they've shown in the past. It's always been controversial.
It's a concept called the FT-86. The production version is likely to be very similar. I just hope and pray that the Subie version comes with AWD.
Bob
Toyota and Fuji Heavy plan to start producing a sporty car in late 2011.
Toyota will be responsible for most of the engineering. Fuji Heavy will supply the horizontally opposed engine and manufacture the car at a Subaru plant.
Fuji Heavy won't comment on whether the FT-86 Concept is that car or not; Subaru won't be displaying a sports car at the Oct. 24-Nov. 4 Tokyo show. But the car clearly underscores new President Akio Toyoda's push for more muscular, fun-to-drive models.
Tada said Toyota wants the FT-86's sticker price to be in the $20,000 range. “It won't sell if it's over 3 million yen ($30,000),” he said. “The price has to appeal to regular customers.”
The car seats four and has a front-engine, rear-drive layout. The boxer engine allows for a lower hood and gives the FT-86 a lower center of gravity. Key to the design was maximizing fuel efficiency by reducing weight and creating a compact design, Tada said.
Tada also said it gets a dedicated chassis, noting that “enthusiasts don't want a shared platform.”
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20091006/TOKYO/910069998
So how much power does that 2.0 make in Japan now? If memory serves, it is direct injection and makes a fair amount or power - near 200 hp? Or maybe they will offer a turbo, with closer to 250 hp?
The Toyota version will be RWD, but I suppose the Subaru version will be AWD. Honestly, for this type of car, I would probably go with the Toyota for the RWD. Why suffer the fuel economy penalty of AWD when there is a RWD version available?
I have been eagerly awaiting this model's debut, but I didn't reallize it was still more than 2 years away. :-(
Plus, if they are talking about a $30K price celing for it and it is that far off, I'm afraid the price will be upper $20Ks for the Toyota, and probably $30K for the Subaru AWD model. Sort of like a replacement for the SVX, and the Supra for Toyota before it moved totally out of reach with the mid-90s supercar model. But far from the affordable $20Kish car I thought this was going to be when it was originally announced.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I agree that badging an AWD version as Subaru would be highly effective.
Note the 6 speed manual.
The basic 2.0l engine from Japan made 156hp last time I looked, DI should pump that up quite a bit. The Miata makes 166hp from a highly tuned 2.0l and doesn't get DI, so they will beat that. I expect about 180hp or so.
Like you, I recall the whole affordable sports car pitch, back then they said under $20, now it's in the $20 range. To me that translates to $24-30k.
It's small, a lot shorter than a Civic. Should be light. Very low center of gravity. This thing is going to perform nicely.
Can't wait to see the roadster and then the Subaru version (with AWD of course).
LOL!
No AWD. No sale.
Bob
You wouldn't drive a new Miata-equivalent with a lower center of gravity, more power and Subaru reliability?
Dave
If I'm going to buy a Subaru, it must be AWD; otherwise, no sale.
Bob
Being a California resident, the AWD is what will drive me straight into the arms of Toyota on this thing, but I appreciate that as a Subaru it MUST be AWD.
This is exactly the reason Subaru can't grow its market in the southwest and other parts of the country outside the snow belt. Particularly when there is a badge-engineered RWD model available that is otherwise an exact equivalent.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I will agree that Subaru has had trouble selling the fact that AWD is a 365-day-a-year benefit—but it is a fact.
...And yes, if you don't agree with that, then by all means get the Toyota version, and leave the AWD version for those of us who appreciate it on year-round basis.
Lastly, Subaru does benefit on every Toyota FT-86 sold, as it uses the Subaru engine, and it's built in a Subaru factory. So they're not losing money here.
Bob
I am enjoying the HECK out of my new OBS, and there is no question that AWD is FAR superior to FWD if you intend to have any fun behind the wheel.
But here the RWD Toyota will probably use 10-15% less gas than the Subaru version will, and be just as much fun to drive (and may be 5-10% less expensive to buy as well, due to the added cost of the AWD hardware).
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
You also don't need power steering—but it helps. Same could be said for any number of other automotive advancements. We don't need them, but they all help.
Bob
Power steering's costs are weight, cost, complexity, and often reduced road feel. Personally, I would go without it quite willingly in a RWD car.
Many of AWD's downsides are the same as those of power steering: cost, complexity (although Subaru's AWD system is so durable and low-maintenance that this is barely a factor), and weight. With the added hit of reduced fuel economy.
As a result, in an area that gets 4 months of rainy weather a year and no snow, I will take RWD in my sport coupe over AWD. I think it is still a very real possibility, however, that Toyota will either overprice it (as xwesx hinted) or cost-cut it to death on the interior, in which case I will be headed to Subaru after all.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I do think Subarus should be AWD-only, for the reason you already stated - otherwise it would be redundant with Toyota's model, a clone, if you will. And as Bob said, you drop AWD and suddenly it loses the Subaru DNA.
No clones please!
And put up with slow 4 - 5 turns, lock-to-lock? No thanks I did that back in the '60s, and have no desire to return there. Give me power steering and quick sub-3 turns lock-to-lock any day.
Why 4- 5 turns, you ask? Because that's the only way you will get the steering light enough for average people to use. Oh, one more thing: Ever try to parallel-park a car without power steering? Good luck...
Bob
My fear is that it will remain a Japan-only car, or not come to North America, both of which have been rumored. If that happens the chances of a RWD Subaru version rise dramatically.
Bob
"Subaru's AWD" is a very nebulous term, since there are a half dozen of those around.
The most advanced is of course the one in the STI, with the center planetary gear based diff, with front helical and rear Torsen diffs. No other Subarus get this.
Then there is the VTD with rear viscous diff employed in a few EATs. Then there is the VTD with VSC (EAT only). Then there is the viscous center diff of the non-STI manual subarus. Then there is the non-VTD EAT with no center diff at all but hydraulically actuated clutches and then variations of those with VSC and with a rear viscous diff and so on.
So "Subaru AWD" is a very stretchy term meaning a dozen different things, based on which one we are referring to.
Of course based on the price of this new car, we could predict that the manual version of this will not get the high-end mechanical stuff from the STI but will use a variation of the cheap viscous center diff. And the EAT version will get a variation of the clutch-type AWD with no center diff and a cheap viscous diff in the rear.
Absolutely. I used to do this all the time in my '69 Econoline. I lament, at times, not driving it more than I do these days, but the cost of fuel would eat me out of my home! I have some stories about its lack of power steering, power brakes, power anything.... Great "road feel," but boy is it work (at times) to drive it.
I think Subaru used to to a great job balancing power steering with road feel, but they are beginning to fail in that regard.
Here's another for you: Remember those old non-synchro gearboxes (or the non-synchro 1st gear), where you had to double-clutch in order to change gears without grinding them? My uncle's old '41 Chevy farm truck had one of those; had to double-clutch every gear change.
Bob
I don't want to see something at the STI price level. Let's keep it in the $20s, at least.
Competitors would include the Miata and the Genesis coupe.
Really it's a niche that has yet to be fulfilled. Miata is a roadster and too small for most, and Hyundai is going after the drifter crowd.
This could be the unicorn of cars - the affordable sports car.
Frankly, though, in a small car, power steering is hardly relevant in terms of the force required to turn the wheel. The number of turns? Well, fewer is always nice. Power steering is great, but not if it is overboosted. GM is the king of that; has been for decades.
Toyota has technology Subaru could make use of easily - laser dynamic cruise control, smart keys, and those neat backup cams in the rearview mirror.
That's a quick and easy way for Subaru to add those features. In fact all they would need to do is NOT remove them from the Toyota model.
Indeed, Lotus still lacks power steering now. The new joint venture coupe will only weigh about 700 pounds more than the Lotus, and will also be RWD.
aaykay: yeah sorry, with my "low complexity" comment I was referring to the VCD in the non-STi Imprezas. That and a limited slip at the back are all I expect the new coupe to have.
As for Subaru using Toyota gizmos like laser cruise control, I'm SURE Toyota will not offer such things in the base model of their car. I would love to see some of that stuff make it into the Subaru version....Subaru has a very different (and much better) idea of what constitutes a "base model". In a Toyota you are lucky to get four wheels and an engine in the base model.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)